Liverpool 2-2 Tottenham Hotspur: In game and Post Match discussion

fyi - personal gripe here I guess - but on the American comms, Lee Dixon and Graeme Le Saux are going on about whether it is a penalty and you can hear the sound from the referees having their conference...only you can't hear it because they wouldn't shut up when it would have been better for them to listen to what was being said and picked up by the hand-held camera. Glad for those of you who posted it on here. Comms need to recognize the value of silence once in a while.

I could hear the AR a lot better than the Center, but does the Center actually say something like "this is taking too long?" Also, does it sound like they are talking to someone else in the head set? (would that be the 4th, then?).

Yeh I think in the end he’s just taken a punt.

I'm still livid beyond words. I can't ever remember being quite so angry over a game of footy as I am over this, to the point that my head's still spinning so I might ramble a bit. Forgive me if I do. First of all let's get the Elephant in the room out of the way. It was not a penalty. Neither of them were. First was offside, second was not a foul in a month of Sundays. That's not with the benefit of close up camera shots either, it didn't look remotely like a penalty. For the first one it was as blatant a dive as you're ever going to see. Having already set a precedent for himself by booking Ali for an equally obvious dive, questions need to be asked why he then gave the penalty to Kane.

For the second penalty, anyone who thinks it did needs to give their head a wobble. In real time it just looked like Lamela dived into Van Dijk. With the benefit of close up camera angles, you can clearly see him going down before contact is even made. Diving aside, if that's a penalty then Football is truly dead because no team is ever going to finish the game with eleven men. It was a pathetic decision, but sadly one not atypical to the increasingly poor standards of refereeing in this country. These pricks need to be wired up so everyone can hear what they say like in Rugby. Like Managers do, they should have to go on television with a post-match interview and justify those decisions. Until they do, it won't change.

That's why we drew the game. Nonetheless, Poch's comments do have some merit. We were absolutely abject in the second half. A goal was coming for a very long time and only our defenders, including Karius, kept us in the game as long as we where. Our midfield was non-existent to the point that they may as well not have even been on the pitch, they were so poor. To my mind this reinforces the dereliction of duty of all those involved by not reinforcing in the January window. Even in the first half, there was not a shred of creativity in the middle of the park, we got by on aggression alone. If this team is to progress and be successful, both of these aspects of the game are needed. Quite honestly, a midfield of Henderson, Can and Milner is about the weakest midfield I think I've seen us play in a very long time. They absolutely failed time and again to establish any sort of control or exert any pressure on Spurs in the second half.

Unfortunately that's the problem. This is a draw that feels like a defeat, and for all our failings, not a defeat of our own making. Yes, a win for us would have been a smash and grab but we were cheated out of a win by another outrageous refereeing decision. I would rather Spurs had scored their two goals on their own merits, from open play. It would be more palatable and, given just how good they are, and how well the played in the second half, would hurt a lot less than this does.

We also need to look at the Striking situation as well. Firmino, Salah and Mane are all well and good but the drop off then to Ings and Solanke is unacceptable for a club with our ambitions. I shudder to think what will happen to our season if we lose one of them. During the first half, we also ran into one of our other main problems this season: lack of clinical finishing. Salah has to go down as one of our best signings of all time, at least on the evidence we have so far, but he's one of three and the other two need to start taking the chances they're presented with as well, of which they do all too infrequently. Again this comes back to the lack of business done in January when everyone else strengthened. Looking to the bench today and I despair at the lack of quality back up we have. We seem to have come full circle under Klopp and it needs addressing this Summer.

MOTM then. Three contenders. Salah, for dancing through half of Spur team and scoring one of the best goals you're likely to see, a goal that deserved to be the winner. Karius for doing what was needed of him, when it was needed. This is the first time in a very long time I can hand on heart say that our Goalkeeper won us points. But I voted Van Dijk, who looked every inch the £75 million defender we've bought. His commanding presence, his organising of the defence, the guy bossed that back line, a back line that played probably the best game I've seen them play under Klopp.

So, as much as this is a draw that feels like a defeat, we didn't need to win today, and so a draw still sees us third, above Spurs and Chelsea with plenty of Football still to play, and in all honesty, I'd have taken a point before Kick off, and certainly taken a point halfway through the second half when we were under the kosh. Was a point fair? In the cold light of day, yes it was. I just wish it was a point under better circumstances.

If Lovren touched it hes onside whats worrying is the footage and the ref does not know if he touched it so he surely cant give it

From what the lads were say in the studio (Andy Grey and co.. the moment that Deli Ali plays the ball forward Kane was in a offside position he should have been flagged no matter who it touched on the way to him

Absolutely gutted.

That second goal from Salah was worthy of winning any match.

Yet again though the same frailties. Goalkeeper was poor, and defensively when it mattered we let ourselves down.

I'm not too sure on the penalty decisions. Watching it i thought straight away that's a penalty on both but watching the replays I don't think there's an awful lot of contact in either.

I don't want that to sort of paper over the cracks though. We weren't good enough to win today, besides Salah I think everybody would get a 6 or worse. Not sure what others think but that's how I see it. Even Firmino had a fairly quiet match.

Second half was totally unacceptable today  We need to respond by winning at Southampton. We owe them still from that league cup semi final last season.

I'm hopeful we can get 9/9pts from our next 3 EPL matches. That will stand us in good stead going forward.

http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside

Offside position
It is not an offence to be in an offside position.

A player is in an offside position if:
any part of the head, body or feet is in the opponents’ half (excluding the halfway line) and
any part of the head, body or feet is nearer to the opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent
The hands and arms of all players, including the goalkeepers, are not considered.
A player is not in an offside position if level with the:
second-last opponent or
last two opponents
Offside offence
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:
interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or
interfering with an opponent by:
preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or
challenging an opponent for the ball or
clearly attempting to play a ball which is close to him when this action impacts on an opponent or
making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball
or
gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent
been deliberately saved by any opponent
A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage.
A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).

In situations where:
a player moving from, or standing in, an offside position is in the way of an opponent and interferes with the movement of the opponent towards the ball this is an offside offence if it impacts on the ability of the opponent to play or challenge for the ball; if the player moves into the way of an opponent and impedes the opponent's progress (e.g blocks the opponent) the offence should be penalised under Law 12
a player in an offisde position is moving towards the ball with the intention of playing the ball and is fouled before playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball, the foul is penalised as it has occurred before the offside offence
an offence is committed against a player in an offside position who is already playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball, the offside offence is penalised as it has occurred before the foul challenge
No offence
There is no offside offence if a player receives the ball directly from:
a goal kick
a throw-in
a corner kick
Offences and sanctions
If an offside offence occurs, the referee awards an indirect free kick where the offence occurred, including if it is in the player’s own half of the field of play.

A defending player who leaves the field of play without the referee’s permission shall be considered to be on the goal line or touchline for the purposes of offside until the next stoppage in play or until the defending team has played the ball towards the halfway line and it is outside their penalty area. If the player left the field of play deliberately, the player must be cautioned when the ball is next out of play.

An attacking player may step or stay off the field of play not to be involved in active play. If the player re-enters from the goal line and becomes involved in play before the next stoppage in play, or the defending team has played the ball towards the halfway line and it is outside their penalty area, the player shall be considered to be positioned on the goal line for the purposes of offside. A player who deliberately leaves the field of play and re-enters without the referee’s permission and is not penalised for offside and gains an advantage, must be cautioned.

If an attacking player remains stationary between the goalposts and inside the goal as the ball enters the goal, a goal must be awarded unless the player commits an offside offence or Law 12 offence in which case play is restarted with an indirect or direct free kick.
FAQs
Q1: Can a player on the halfway line be offside?
Q2: Are a player’s arms/hands considered as part of the player’s body when judging offside?
Q3: The Law now says that the IDFK for offside can be taken in the player’s own half but how can this be correct?
Q4: Can a player who interferes with play after a rebound or save be given offside?
Q5: For how long is a defending player who goes off the field of play during an opponents’ attack technically on the goal line for offside?
Q6: How can an attacking player gain a non-offside advantage when returning to the field of play?
Q7: Can an attacking player in the goal net be penalised for offside?
 
I have lighted the relevant part above and would like to ask a question... How come the Referee and Lines man does not know this...??

For the first penalty the ball is played thru to Kane, who is in an offside position but is played on by Lovren. A crazy swipe at the ball by Lovren.

But as Kane goes past Karuis then goes over you can clearly here Gary neville say....." It's a dive".....but then says " Oh it's given, a penalty."...yet he knew full well it was a DIVE by Kane....the Assistant fist pumping Ref must have seen the dive. But it only showed on the reply that Lovren got a nick...the Ref and his cheating assistant were not sure....defititely a conspiracy to defraud us.

No we weren't. For all their possession Spurs created next to nothing.

That's usually the case though. When teams usually create something, the ball often ends up in the net.

The debate over the first penalty is moot really, they did miss it after all. I don't think we have a case over the second one though. The opponent may have jumped towards him, but what matters is, he's caught by VVD. Even Klopp admitted it. And when a lino flags for something, the decision is automatic.

I don't accept tiredness from footballers. And I certainly don't accept it from a team that had a full extra day's rest before this game. I don't know what happened us after half time but we just stopped playing. Wtf were they doing over the past 5 days? It was a bit similiar to the beginning of the second half against City. Only this wasn't 10 or 15 minutes, this was a whole second half at home and this team doesn't have the discipline required to shut up shop for 45 minutes and get away with it, and we didn't. Like I said, we've got to play against Porto in a couple of weeks, and it will be no defence to say, "we were tired".

Finally, if anyone questions why we need VAR, today again showed why. We desperately desperately need it, and we have just 12 more league games to go through before we have it. I want to walk away from a game, knowing every key decision made, for or against me, was 100% correct. And if it takes 5 seconds or 5 minutes, so be it, I don't care. We will get the right decision, and that is the only thing that counts imo.

That said, maybe it wasn't that bad a result after all. Ireland hasn't shown up here yet. The rest of us will know in 12 games whether it was a good result or not.

Well, in all honesty, I thought aside from the Wanyama wonder strike and Salahs magical second goal, both teams lacked quality on the day. Aside from the two crackers, all the talk is surrounding the officials...

Last year’s article. He’s still as sh*te. Making decisions he cannot confirm.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-referee-study-jonathan-moss-leicester-city-jamie-vardy-a7004621.html

Jonathan Moss: Premier League referee makes more mistakes than any other in top-flight, study reveals

A total of 84 'fundamental' errors have been recorded this season, according to research by a group of former officials.

Jonathan Moss’ officiating has come under further scrutiny following the publication of a report into errors by Premier League referees.

The 45-year-old official attracted controversy earlier this month with his handling of Leicester City’s 2-2 draw against West Ham United, which saw him show a red card to Jamie Vardy for simulation and award two contentious late penalties.

Moss has now been found to have made more ‘game-changing’ mistakes than any other top-flight referee this season, with 13 in 22 games.


Glenn Turner, a former World Cup assistant referee, carried out the study in conjunction with YouAreTheRef.com and recorded a total of 84 “fundamental” errors in the 333 matches played up to 22 April.

Incorrect decision on goals, penalties and sendings off were included once identified by both Turner and YouAreTheRef’s ‘Ref Show’ panel, which includes Keith Hackett, a former general manager of the Professional Game Match Officials Board (PGMO).

The study revealed Moss makes, on average, a mistake which could potentially influence the result every 1.69 games.

By comparison, the league’s least error-prone referee Anthony Taylor only makes a fundamental incorrect call every nine games, with a record of three mistakes in 27 games this season.

Mark Clattenburg, who will represent England’s officials at this summer’s European Championships in France, fares relatively well, with a key error every 5.40 games.

Martin Atkinson, also selected to officiate in France, has made a total of 7 mistakes in 29 appearances, at an average of one every 4.14 games, according to the study.

YouAreTheRef's release does not disclose specific examples of incorrect decisions and makes no direct comment on Moss' performance in the game between Leicester and West Ham.

Hackett, writing on YouAreTheRef, said: “I have great respect for the referees shown to be consistently good by our survey. But it is clear that standards have slipped across the board.

“Those referees letting the side down should be helped to improve for the benefit of the group as a whole – and all the stakeholders in the game.

“One thing the Premier League and its set of referees can pride itself on is integrity. There are none of the suspicions that you see in other countries. Mistakes are honest mistakes.

“But it’s for the integrity of the competition and its image as supposedly the best in the world, that refereeing standards need to be addressed by all the stakeholders.”

The Independent has approached YouAreTheRef and the PGMO for further comment.

Last year’s article. He’s still as sh*te. Making decisions he cannot confirm.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/premier-league-referee-study-jonathan-moss-leicester-city-jamie-vardy-a7004621.html

Jonathan Moss: Premier League referee makes more mistakes than any other in top-flight, study reveals

A total of 84 'fundamental' errors have been recorded this season, according to research by a group of former officials.

Jonathan Moss’ officiating has come under further scrutiny following the publication of a report into errors by Premier League referees.

The 45-year-old official attracted controversy earlier this month with his handling of Leicester City’s 2-2 draw against West Ham United, which saw him show a red card to Jamie Vardy for simulation and award two contentious late penalties.

Moss has now been found to have made more ‘game-changing’ mistakes than any other top-flight referee this season, with 13 in 22 games.


Glenn Turner, a former World Cup assistant referee, carried out the study in conjunction with YouAreTheRef.com and recorded a total of 84 “fundamental” errors in the 333 matches played up to 22 April.

Incorrect decision on goals, penalties and sendings off were included once identified by both Turner and YouAreTheRef’s ‘Ref Show’ panel, which includes Keith Hackett, a former general manager of the Professional Game Match Officials Board (PGMO).

The study revealed Moss makes, on average, a mistake which could potentially influence the result every 1.69 games.

By comparison, the league’s least error-prone referee Anthony Taylor only makes a fundamental incorrect call every nine games, with a record of three mistakes in 27 games this season.

Mark Clattenburg, who will represent England’s officials at this summer’s European Championships in France, fares relatively well, with a key error every 5.40 games.

Martin Atkinson, also selected to officiate in France, has made a total of 7 mistakes in 29 appearances, at an average of one every 4.14 games, according to the study.

YouAreTheRef's release does not disclose specific examples of incorrect decisions and makes no direct comment on Moss' performance in the game between Leicester and West Ham.

Hackett, writing on YouAreTheRef, said: “I have great respect for the referees shown to be consistently good by our survey. But it is clear that standards have slipped across the board.

“Those referees letting the side down should be helped to improve for the benefit of the group as a whole – and all the stakeholders in the game.

“One thing the Premier League and its set of referees can pride itself on is integrity. There are none of the suspicions that you see in other countries. Mistakes are honest mistakes.

“But it’s for the integrity of the competition and its image as supposedly the best in the world, that refereeing standards need to be addressed by all the stakeholders.”

The Independent has approached YouAreTheRef and the PGMO for further comment.

Begs the question as to why he's still being allowed to officiate the Premier League. Nevermind his mistakes, doesn't the FA have minimum fitness standards any more?

Begs the question as to why he's still being allowed to officiate the Premier League. Nevermind his mistakes, doesn't the FA have minimum fitness standards any more?

Exactly. He's nowhere near fit enough to keep up with play.

The real reason this needs investigating is to see if anybody had any bets on Kane scoring a penalty in the last 10 minutes. There could be some kind of match fixing when considering the ref initially said no penalty then the linesman said something. It's quite unheard of.

Exactly. Some of you have watched football  longer than I have. Have any of you ever seen a linesman overule the referee 2 times in the final minutes.Then award 2 pens?

Not 2 legit pens but 2 completely bullshit calls where the same linesman ignored an obvious offside and a no contact dive.
I saw a story about a company which does nothng but monitor the gambling trends and winning bets on all of the European leagues and WC matches for UEFA. They look for inconsistencies in betting patterns. If someone bet or parlayed on Kane or Spurs getting an injury time pen and winning big, they will investigate. If any winner is linked to that linesman hes fu**ed.

Its not that often I disagree with klopps starting line up but I did today. A midfield of can, Henderson and milner is asking for big trouble. What's more, Spurs midfield consisted of dier and dembele who are two slow yard dogs. I don't understand why we didn't inject the midfield with pace and energy which is how we were going to beat Spurs today in my opinion. Instead, klopp opted for strength it seems and maybe thought we would be bullied? I didn't  agree with it at all and we should be letting Spurs worry about us, not us worry about them.

I know hendo milner and can did ok at Huddersfield but we're up a against a completely different standard here. Both Ox and gini should have started in the midfield and milner and one of hendo or can (my choice would be hendo) should have been taken out.

The first half I was actually quite surprised with how well we did. Spurs had more possession but I felt we were in complete control throughout. Salah opened the scoring with a great finish but we were very lucky that the chance fell to him if we're being honest. That said, we had two massive chances in that half in which we should have made more of. The first one was when Mane nicked the ball from Sanchez I think it was on the wing who then fell over. Mane couldn't pick a pass out and the ball was cleared. Piss poor to be honest and Sadio should have done a lot better. The second was right before the half time whistle when salah failed to put Mane through with a simple pass that he over hit. Again, it was piss poor and mo shouid have done better too.

I don't remember them having any chances in the first half other than a long range shot across the floor that dembele hit where Karius kept hold of it well.

Half time 1-0 and I'd say we just about edged it and deserved to be in front.

Second half starts and our mentality and tactics just completely changed. We couldn't get hold of the ball and Spurs completely dominated. All my fears when I saw the starting line up became a reality. We were over run all over the park and even though Spurs had no clear cut chances, I felt it was only a matter of time before they scored.

Klopp made a couple of decisions that I didn't agree with. Why does he keep taking Mane off every game? Is it any wonder his confidence is shot? I'd have kept him on despite him not having the best of games and I'd have put the Ox on for milner in the middle.

The second change I didn't agree with was putting matip on for milner and going to a back five. Why? They were already dominating the game at that point so it just invites even more pressure onto us.

Eriksen plays a wicked cross into the box and Karius punches the ball clear. I've got no problem with this at all and I don't blame Karius in any way. Instead I'm focusing more on how the ball was allowed to be played to eriksen, who had all the time and spade in the world, and then why emre can failed to clear Karius punch and why the Ox let's wanyama get to the ball before him because he's too busy day dreaming. The keeper will be blamed by some but he won't get any blame or criticism from me. The strike itself was a worldie from 20-25 yards and no keeper is keeping that out either.

The ref then awards Spurs a penalty which shouldn't have been in my opinion. Karma struck and Karius kept it out.

We then score against the run of play by just sheer brilliance and genius from salah. What a player this lad is. That was just pure messi like. A great goal and it looks like we steal the points.

That's until the gobs***e ref and his gobs***e assistant award another penalty which again, in my opinion, was never a penalty. We had ran out of luck at that point and Kane bags and makes it 2-2. FT.

Am I annoyed at the officials? Yes I am. But to be honest I'm far more annoyed with our performance today. If we had won that game I'd have been in disbelief. We didn't deserve anything from that game today in truth and we were very lucky to get away with a draw with that performance. It was piss poor and that second half is up there with the worst I've ever seen of us under klopp. So I don't want to make a big deal out of the refereeing decisions, I think klopp and some of those players need to have a look at themselves in the mirror tonight because it wasn't good enough.

Against city I was beaming with pride despite a nervous last five minutes but tonight I actually felt embarrassed at some parts. It was what I would describe a shithouse performance.

A few special mentions though. Firstly to Karius who I thought had a very good game. The spotlight is always on him when he starts but I thought he did well today. His distribution was poor at times but it's still refreshing to see our goalie clear the ball instead of having migs who makes five yard passes to the full backs when they're already under pressure or marked causing absolute havoc and chaos.

Second mention goes to VVD who I thought bossed that back line today and barely put a foot wrong.

Third and final mention goes to motm mo salah who has had an amazing season and continues to wow us.

To summarise, a point against Tottenham at this stage of the season isn't the end of the world. I think we missed a great opportunity today though and a win would have put them under some serious pressure going into their next couple of games. I don't think our set up, tactics or performance was even close to good enough. It was very disappointing.

"The first penalty is very interesting. [Harry] Kane is in an offside position and [Dejan] Lovren has the chance to clear the ball and takes a chance.

"He has an ample opportunity to clear it. He doesn't clear it and he's clearly hit the ball. The ball comes through to Kane who is now not offside, as the law states.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11237074/ref-watch-dermot-gallaghers-verdict-on-tottenhams-penalties

How stupid does he look trying to defend his mates. I was watching the interview and Sherear asked a couple of times why Kane was not called offside when Alli played the ball through regardless of the touch by Lovren, but the c**t just ignored him and kept saying Lovren touched the ball which was the reason why Kane wasn't given offside, WTF?

I have re-watched it so many times, and every pundit (ex professional) says it should have been called offside... it just doesn't make sense how it's onside. Lovren didn't have full control of the ball and while the ball was heading to his direction, all he did was take a swipe at it but misses (f**k me, re-watching it, f**king poor defending by Lovren).

As we have come to expect from this inept F.A. the incompetent officials will  not  be punished. We lost 2 points that we should not of. (bas**rds)

I watched the match but was reading on my laptop at the same time.

Van Dijk was quite good, right?
The defense looked pretty good for once and Karius was in his game.

As for the midfield, we clearly miss a good leader. Can us the leader when Milner and Hendo are out but our captains do not command the game.

We miss someone with Lucas' temperament and leadership.

Begs the question as to why he's still being allowed to officiate the Premier League. Nevermind his mistakes, doesn't the FA have minimum fitness standards any more?

Obviously not seeing as though he is the only Ref with man boobs!

For me, I would f***in wait for ten minutes to check the VAR decision rather being robbed crucial points. I prefer that we have a just result than entertainment for the whole world rather than us, LFC fans.

I'm still angry with the result.

Said that, we lose our stream in the second half as well. We needed to be possessing and bossing them throughout with their quality.

Still F***ing fuming.

F***ing hate Pochettino and his bunch of diving cu*ts. Hope they finish 8th the cu*ts!!


Tottenham's cheating players getting into the ice-bath after the game tonight..

https://www.facebook.com/empireofthekop/videos/10155979947756132/

Looking back on it, ultimately a very poor performance from us so probably a decent point. First half we were the better team but final ball was woeful and we didn't really test the Spurs defence properly. Second half, midfield went to pieces and they dominated. Don't buy the rubbish about missing Coutinho - every game he was here he went missing whenever the opponents turned the screw (Sevilla away and Arsenal away to name two in the last two months he was here). Positive signs were how disciplined the back four were, they had so much possession and half openings to cross etc but we stood firm which was great to see. Ultimately only a wonder goal and a dodgy pen did for us. Karius played well too.

For the first penalty the ball is played thru to Kane, who is in an offside position but is played on by Lovren. A crazy swipe at the ball by Lovren.

But as Kane goes past Karuis then goes over you can clearly here Gary neville say....." It's a dive".....but then says " Oh it's given, a penalty."...yet he knew full well it was a DIVE by Kane....the Assistant fist pumping Ref must have seen the dive. But it only showed on the reply that Lovren got a nick...the Ref and his cheating assistant were not sure....defititely a conspiracy to defraud us.

yea, most of the talk is about whether it was off side or not, it seems to have been overlooked a bit that he also dived, Karius didnt touch him.

Karius was good and commanded the area. Him alongside VDV should be a really good start to shore up our defence.
Spurs are an excellent side, we could easily have lost the game, but we almost and should have won it.

Next week Spurs face a rejuvinated Arsenal and we are at Southampton, so this draw could be really important for the 4th place cup.