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      VAR

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      DanMann
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #225: Jul 02, 2018 01:29:33 pm
      He didn't admit corruption, he admitted giving players he was mates with yellow cards so they could have a day off rather than play in a game they didn't want to play in, no cash involved!!

      That is still corruption. An abuse of power. Favouritism. All that.

      The point is, the officials can always bend rules or make allowances if they wish to do so. Bias and corruption.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #226: Jul 02, 2018 01:45:18 pm
      That is still corruption. An abuse of power. Favouritism. All that.

      The point is, the officials can always bend rules or make allowances if they wish to do so. Bias and corruption.

      Yeah but here in the Premier League in England it's seen more as quaint behaviour, hence the lack of any real probe into it by the FA or it being almost not very newsworthy to the press. Tbh I only know about it through reading a columnist in one of the newspapers who almost excused it of Halsey trying too hard to be mates with some of the players.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #227: Jul 02, 2018 02:04:32 pm
      If one official makes a decision, it can be wrong. If an official makes a decision and 4 others back him up, then it's less likely to be wrong.

      I can see why the Mitrovic penalty appeal was rejected. No question he was fouled. But he was fouling his opponents also. As Magillionaire says, the ref can't give a penalty and a free kick in the same incident. So he let play go on.

      There were 330+ incidents checked by VAR in the group phase with a correct decision made 99.3% of the time. That accuracy is up there with other sports that use technology. So as in those sports, whatever decision VAR makes should be accepted as the right decision.
      DanMann
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #228: Jul 02, 2018 02:05:20 pm
      I agree it is minor, but is is an example to illustrate that the officials can and do have bias or other agenda's in their decision making. There will of course be bigger issues that will not have been openly discussed. Unless a ref wants to have criminal charges, he's not going to admit bigger fraud than that.

      VAR is not a perfect system. It enables an 'extra' look, but does not prevent bias in the decision making.

      When the ref goes to look at that screen, there is enormous pressure. He knows everyone in the world is seeing what he is seeing. He has to make a judgement call. If the decision is tight, and the significance great (e.g. a late penalty call), then the ref could be swayed by what he feels will be the consequence of the decision.

      Ultimately, he is under more scrutiny now than before.

      There is also the question of what is actually 'checked' by VAR. A couple of blatant incidents have been completely ignored.   

      Keith Singleton
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #229: Jul 02, 2018 03:04:33 pm
      Well that’s not true. Mitrovic being fouled was a clear cut penalty, yet wasn’t given. Just because it’s not given doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have been.

      That's correct. Lfc across the water seems to be wearing rose tinted glasses regarding VAR. Apparently there never wrong. Decisions are still made by humans, that being the case there will always be mistakes. Fortunately not as many before VAR. like most of us say ( apart from one ) VAR will make mistakes even if it's less than 1%
      Ribapuru
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #230: Jul 02, 2018 06:02:14 pm
      That's correct. Lfc across the water seems to be wearing rose tinted glasses regarding VAR. Apparently there never wrong. Decisions are still made by humans, that being the case there will always be mistakes. Fortunately not as many before VAR. like most of us say ( apart from one ) VAR will make mistakes even if it's less than 1%
      VAR has improved things but wherever human error can exist, they'll be errors.
      Even if no humans were involved and we moved to AI system, there would be errors.
      Diego LFC
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #231: Jul 02, 2018 09:33:24 pm
      VAR is brilliant. Of course it won't mean errors will be erased from the game, but then, if you expected that, then the joke is on you for having such stupid expectations. At the end of the day a lot of the rule requires interpretation and the final decision is made by humans. Perfect consistency is also an elusive goal - something to strive for, but cannot be reached.

      I feel like many reactions to VAR are similar to the reactions regarding the application of statistics in sports. A lot of clueless people criticising it because they don't understand it or are just too conservative, and then put the weight of completely made up expectations on it to justify their dislike.

      "So stats can't explain football just in numbers" - no sh*t Sherlock, no one ever said it would.

      "So VAR hasn't solved all problems with refereeing" - oh really, you have zero clue of how it's been applied in other sports if you ever thought that would be the case.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #232: Jul 03, 2018 02:09:17 pm
      Quote from DanMann
      I agree it is minor, but is is an example to illustrate that the officials can and do have bias or other agenda's in their decision making. There will of course be bigger issues that will not have been openly discussed.

      VAR is not a perfect system. It enables an 'extra' look, but does not prevent bias in the decision making.

      When the ref goes to look at that screen, there is enormous pressure. He knows everyone in the world is seeing what he is seeing. He has to make a judgement call. If the decision is tight, and the significance great (e.g. a late penalty call), then the ref could be swayed by what he feels will be the consequence of the decision.

      Ultimately, he is under more scrutiny now than before.

      There is also the question of what is actually 'checked' by VAR. A couple of blatant incidents have been completely ignored.

      The example you provided has nothing to do with VAR. If there was bias, the biggest teams that FIFA want as far in the World Cup as possible, would not have VAR decisions overturned against them, or alternatively original decisions not reviewed.

      You're right that refs are under enormous pressure with VAR, and it's not nice to see refs been harassed for VAR reviews. But without VAR, he would be under even more pressure with baying players, coaches and crowds protesting every decision, which he would have to make with just one look at an incident. Now he has a safety net, so if he gets a call wrong, he can take another look and correct it. The ref in the Argentina v England game in Mexico was banned for life for not spotting what everyone else could. The ref in the France v Ireland game in Paris was demoted for not spotting what everyone else could. The ref in the Barcelona v Chelsea game, retired after the game, as he couldn't take the response to his performance and the threats that followed. Maybe if they had VAR, their careers may not have been ruined.

      This has a 99% success rate, and the amount of times the press and media have commended the refs for "correct calls" far outweighs the less than 1% of errors. We have 10 WC games of it left, before we're back to the realities of dealing with the decisions of Moss and Friend and Pawson every week, and getting robbed at the toilet every year.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #233: Jul 04, 2018 12:22:22 am
      The example you provided has nothing to do with VAR. If there was bias, the biggest teams that FIFA want as far in the World Cup as possible, would not have VAR decisions overturned against them, or alternatively original decisions not reviewed.

      You're right that refs are under enormous pressure with VAR, and it's not nice to see refs been harassed for VAR reviews. But without VAR, he would be under even more pressure with baying players, coaches and crowds protesting every decision, which he would have to make with just one look at an incident. Now he has a safety net, so if he gets a call wrong, he can take another look and correct it. The ref in the Argentina v England game in Mexico was banned for life for not spotting what everyone else could. The ref in the France v Ireland game in Paris was demoted for not spotting what everyone else could. The ref in the Barcelona v Chelsea game, retired after the game, as he couldn't take the response to his performance and the threats that followed. Maybe if they had VAR, their careers may not have been ruined.

      This has a 99% success rate, and the amount of times the press and media have commended the refs for "correct calls" far outweighs the less than 1% of errors. We have 10 WC games of it left, before we're back to the realities of dealing with the decisions of Moss and Friend and Pawson every week, and getting robbed at the toilet every year.
      If it were 99% success rate, we'd have had 4 penalties today and a Colombian red card. 2 fouls on Kane, 1 Sterling and 1 Lingard.
      RedWilly
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #234: Jul 04, 2018 06:00:28 am
      Got to admit, I was against VAR intially, but it’s really won me over this World Cup.

      Think it’s great that all the sh*t you see in the box that goes u punished previously is now being cut out.

      A bi product of it is the players requesting reviews but is that really so different to players chasing a ref around asking for a pen anyway?
      Diego LFC
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #235: Jul 04, 2018 10:21:58 am
      Got to admit, I was against VAR intially, but it’s really won me over this World Cup.

      Think it’s great that all the sh*t you see in the box that goes u punished previously is now being cut out.

      A bi product of it is the players requesting reviews but is that really so different to players chasing a ref around asking for a pen anyway?

      I find it genuinely funny to see players chasing the ref doing that VAR sign with their hands hahaha

      They'd chase him anyway, at least they have a new thing so it's a bit different :D
      lfc across the water
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #236: Jul 04, 2018 10:55:34 am
      Quote from Ribapuru
      If it were 99% success rate, we'd have had 4 penalties today and a Colombian red card. 2 fouls on Kane, 1 Sterling and 1 Lingard.

      You got a penalty for an offence that until VAR arrived in the game, usually went unpunished. The Lingard incident was not a foul, so there was no case to answer.

      The VAR did his job, in alerting the referee to an off the ball incident, and the ref then dealt with the offender. Before VAR, it would have gone unseen and the offender would not have been punished at all. But you can't con a camera, so dark arts football gets found out at this tournament, like never before.

      Earlier in the day, a penalty awarded was correctly overturned for a free kick where the offence occurred. Before VAR, the original decision would have stood, and the forward would have won a penalty he was not entitled to.

      England will play their quarter final and their ref will have all the resources he needs to go about his job. At the same time we're away to Chester, where we have a local ref with only his own eyesight to do his job. So if he misses a push pull hack or headbutt, then he can't take any action whatsoever.

      The "easier side of the draw", required three penalty shootouts to settle the 4 second round games. The "difficult side" was all settled in 90 minutes.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #237: Jul 04, 2018 02:07:23 pm
      You got a penalty for an offence that until VAR arrived in the game, usually went unpunished. The Lingard incident was not a foul, so there was no case to answer.

      The VAR did his job, in alerting the referee to an off the ball incident, and the ref then dealt with the offender. Before VAR, it would have gone unseen and the offender would not have been punished at all. But you can't con a camera, so dark arts football gets found out at this tournament, like never before.

      Earlier in the day, a penalty awarded was correctly overturned for a free kick where the offence occurred. Before VAR, the original decision would have stood, and the forward would have won a penalty he was not entitled to.

      England will play their quarter final and their ref will have all the resources he needs to go about his job. At the same time we're away to Chester, where we have a local ref with only his own eyesight to do his job. So if he misses a push pull hack or headbutt, then he can't take any action whatsoever.

      The "easier side of the draw", required three penalty shootouts to settle the 4 second round games. The "difficult side" was all settled in 90 minutes.
      If this side is so easy where is Spain? Why did Croatia or England even need penalties?
      This side just looks easier. We all saw Belgium get lucky against Japan.
      DanMann
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #238: Jul 10, 2018 10:10:25 pm
      More VAR failures tonight.

      Can anyone doubt the bias in football when Hazard gets blatantly and badly fouled, yet the ref who is watching it claims he dived, and the 5 officials in the VAR room stay schtum...

      Almost became silly how often the ref was ignoring the French fouls, but then blowing the whistle every time a French player went down.
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #239: Jul 11, 2018 04:22:50 am
      Unpopular opinion but I f**king hate VAR.

      Football is all about moments. I remember being at Anfield sitting in the lowery centenary looking at the Kop erupt when Garcia scored his famous ghost goal against Chelsea.

      I've never seen the Kop like that before. I still havent. It gave me goosebumps I've never felt before. I can't describe the feeling. One of the best feelings I've ever felt in my life to be honest.

      And that would have all been taken away from me if several Chelsea fans surrounded the referee doing TV screen actions. Who then pauses the game for a minute. And then it doesn't matter what happens from then. If the goal is ruled out then you're devastated and if the ref gives it then the celebration just isn't the same.

      It's the same when you reverse it too even though at the time it's horrible. I've been in away ends for us before when we've been denied nailed on penaltys plenty of times and we're all kicking off waving arms about swearing our f**king heads off going mad but that's what football is. Even if we lost the game or drew or whatever I don't care. As i said, football is about moments.

      The hand of god is probably the most famous incident in football. Yes some little tit eliminated England by cheating but had that been ruled out because of VAR then it wouldn't have been spoken about for decades like it has.

      Even the lampard goal against Germany. It was 3 yards over the line and wasn't given. Incredible but that's what it's all about!

      VAR is taking away the atmosphere and it's ruining those OH MY GOD moments whether it's good or bad. Those moments that make football. And those moments why we all love football.

      I just hate var. Football has survived for hundreds of years and has done perfectly fine without it.  I hope it gets fu**ed right off.

      If it doesn't and we persist with it then it'll only get worse. Players will end up wearing some sort of device which triggers if they're offside or not.

      It'll get to the point where there isn't any officials and it's all done by computers.

      Such a shame how this beautiful game is going down the shi**er.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #240: Jul 11, 2018 07:53:48 am
      Where are you going with the "ghost goal" nonsense? That's not a VAR issue. Goalline Technology would rule on it inside 2 seconds flat. I was at our last game without it against QPR, in JC's last game, and we were denied a goal after 3 minutes because the ref didn't see the ball had clearly crossed the line, by some distance. I said at the time, "thank God that's the last time we have to put up with this crap". And it was. GLT is uniform today, and it helps make everyone's lives easier.

      Football is a business. And in any business, there's no margin for error, and serious mistakes are not tolerated. So they shouldn't be tolerated in football either. And when it isn't, you won't have to be waving your arms, and swearing your head off in away ends wondering why we've been done again, because you'll know the final decision given was the correct one.

      The hand of God is not a famous moment. It's talked about, because the decision given was wrong. It's wrong that such outrageous decisions were allowed for so long. They don't at this World Cup, and the game is much the better for it.

      We're finally getting new tv camera angles in for home games next season. Hopefully we're getting a screen too, as all domestic cup games at home will have VAR in operation. Our next game with it may be as soon as September, so we need a screen to let fans in the stadium know if/when a major decision has to be reviewed. The review could be the difference between another trophy in the cabinet, or try again the following year.

      Quote from DanMann
      More VAR failures tonight.

      Can anyone doubt the bias in football when Hazard gets blatantly and badly fouled, yet the ref who is watching it claims he dived, and the 5 officials in the VAR room stay schtum..

      From what I saw there was:

      No penalty claims.
      No red card incidents.
      No mistaken identities.
      No offside calls.

      Therefore VAR had nothing to do.
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #241: Jul 11, 2018 08:04:55 am
      Where are you going with the "ghost goal" nonsense? That's not a VAR issue. Goalline Technology would rule on it inside 2 seconds flat. I was at our last game without it against QPR, in JC's last game, and we were denied a goal after 3 minutes because the ref didn't see the ball had clearly crossed the line, by some distance. I said at the time, "thank God that's the last time we have to put up with this crap". And it was. GLT is uniform today, and it helps make everyone's lives easier.

      Football is a business. And in any business, there's no margin for error, and serious mistakes are not tolerated. So they shouldn't be tolerated in football either. And when it isn't, you won't have to be waving your arms, and swearing your head off in away ends wondering why we've been done again, because you'll know the final decision given was the correct one.

      The hand of God is not a famous moment. It's talked about, because the decision given was wrong. It's wrong that such outrageous decisions were allowed for so long. They don't at this World Cup, and the game is much the better for it.

      We're finally getting new tv camera angles in for home games next season. Hopefully we're getting a screen too, as all domestic cup games at home will have VAR in operation. Our next game with it may be as soon as September, so we need a screen to let fans in the stadium know if/when a major decision has to be reviewed. The review could be the difference between another trophy in the cabinet, or try again the following year.

      From what I saw there was:

      No penalty claims.
      No red card incidents.
      No mistaken identities.
      No offside calls.

      Therefore VAR had nothing to do.

      Oh my god.

      Couldn't think of anything worse than having a screen in anfield.

      Footballs f**king dead.
      Kopite78
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #242: Jul 11, 2018 08:44:55 am
      I agree with HTM

      It's f**king sh*te


      But on the Chelsea goal, had it been in then regardless of the goal line technology it would have been a penalty and probably red card (at the time) for Cech
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #243: Jul 11, 2018 09:04:14 am
      I agree with HTM

      It's f**king sh*te


      But on the Chelsea goal, had it been in then regardless of the goal line technology it would have been a penalty and probably red card (at the time) for Cech

      Exactly, the game would have been stopped and viewed which would have taken the sting out of the greatest atmosphere I've ever witnessed.

      VAR affects the match goer more than it does the sit at home fan more too in my opinion.

      People watching from home can see the replays so they probably have the attitude of how can the ref not see or give that (or the opposite) but when you're at the match you want the decision made by the ref there and then. That's what adds to the excitement.

      You don't want the play to continue for thirty seconds until the ball goes out of play for the referee to review it. It's just not the same at all. It will kill the passion and the atmosphere.

      Mark my words this will happen one day too. A referee will look at an incident inside the box but not give the penalty (which should have been given), the other team break and score straight away. The referee reviews the original incident and awards the penalty and therefore rules out the goal that's just been scored.  It will be a circus.

      There have been a few occasions even with the use of VAR that debates have continued amongst pundits etc whether it was even the right call.

      I just think the whole things a joke and it's for weird perfectionists with OCD.



      Magillionare
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #244: Jul 11, 2018 11:17:01 am
      It's the way the game is going.

      Referees are at a standard so low they need all the help they can get. If it means things change, so be it. It's been a tremendous success at the world cup, no doubt about it.

      Some luddites on here may not like it, but well... Tough.
      Kopite78
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #245: Jul 11, 2018 11:29:11 am
      Think the split will mainly be the ones who go the game and those who have a different experience watching on tv
      Magillionare
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #246: Jul 11, 2018 12:42:31 pm
      Think the split will mainly be the ones who go the game and those who have a different experience watching on tv

      They should have screens at games that show the decisions just like at rugby. Refs should have mics and we should hear the conversations they have with VAR, again just like rugby.

      A lot we can learn from VAR with an oval ball
      Kopite78
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #247: Jul 11, 2018 01:02:09 pm
      They should have screens at games that show the decisions just like at rugby. Refs should have mics and we should hear the conversations they have with VAR, again just like rugby.

      A lot we can learn from VAR with an oval ball

      Oh god I hope not. Rugby us the last thing in the world id want to mimic. Awful waste of time

      I was at the West Brom gane and it was an absolute farce in the ground.
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #248: Jul 11, 2018 02:20:26 pm
      Oh god I hope not. Rugby us the last thing in the world id want to mimic. Awful waste of time

      I was at the West Brom gane and it was an absolute farce in the ground.

      Couldn't agree more. What's a farce that match was.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: VAR
      Reply #249: Jul 11, 2018 05:01:27 pm
      Quote from HamannsTheMan
      Mark my words this will happen one day too. A referee will look at an incident inside the box but not give the penalty (which should have been given), the other team break and score straight away. The referee reviews the original incident and awards the penalty and therefore rules out the goal that's just been scored.  It will be a circus.

      There have been a few occasions even with the use of VAR that debates have continued amongst pundits etc whether it was even the right call.

      I just think the whole things a joke and it's for perfectionists.

      It's not a joke, it's on the way. And if we play the first round of the League Cup at home (or at a EPL ground), it will be in use. So if I'm going, I'm fully aware that any major decision made is subject to review. Just as it has been at the World Cup.

      People have outlined the "mark my words  scenario" above. In 61 games at the World Cup, it has not happened. But even if it does, so what. We go back, we check the original incident and if it was wrong, we correct it on the spot, not do nothing and say how unjust it was, 30+ years later. And whoever wins the World Cup will win it by fair means.

      When the WBA ko time was confirmed, the club informed fans that VAR would be used. And because it was, we got 2 injustices overturned, that we wouldn't have without it. So the system worked the way it's supposed to work. The following week, we didn't have VAR against Spurs, there was a 5 minute delay over a penalty decision, accusations made left right and centre, and a very bad atmosphere as a result.

      It took this club over 100 years just to install a basic scoreboard. When it was finally put in, I don't think it hurt anyone. Getting a screen in, is to let fans know when we have to use VAR, not leaving them in the dark. Even before it comes in, most clubs already have a screen in their ground. It's not exactly the splitting of the atom.

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