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      The dark arts of football....things we must learn.

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      SM
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      The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Mar 12, 2018 01:37:12 pm
      The loss to the Mancs has prompted me to start this topic.

      There were 2 defining moments (not the goals) that could have had a big influence on the game that we did not take advantage off.

      The first being the Rashford lunge near the touchline after already being booked. If TAA takes the contact he is probably off as it was a wild challenge. United down to 10 men.

      The second being the grab on Salah in the box as he went for the ball. If he goes down the ref has a big call to make. He didn't they cleared it and we were left chasing the game. Possible penalty.

      Top teams competing for trophy's will use every advantage they can gain. Its not cheating its a part we lack that could be decisive in our remaining CL games. We saw Juventus killing the flow of the game when they were 2-1 up, they have done it for years. United did the same staying down after challenges against us to take momentum away.

      Its a part of the game we must learn, in tight games it could be the difference and unless we learn to make the most of the opportunity we will continue to rue things that don't go our way.
      JD
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #1: Mar 12, 2018 01:55:44 pm
      Spot on this.  Maybe one of the big things we have to overcome is how to win ugly.  I can't remember the last time we won a game the way United beat us on Saturday.  We don't have a plan B - maybe we don't have the players for it.  It seems to be breathtaking attacking football or we don't win.

      We do almost try to play too pure a brand of football which obviously when it works is brilliant, but sometimes you have to kill opposition momentum or put some doubt in the oppositions mind.  I don't think we were physical enough against Lukaku for instance. 

      That game was crying out for us to get some tasty free kicks outside the area but even with all our pace and trickery of the front three we didn't manage to get ourselves one that I can remember.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #2: Mar 12, 2018 02:03:02 pm
      The loss to the Mancs has prompted me to start this topic.

      There were 2 defining moments (not the goals) that could have had a big influence on the game that we did not take advantage off.

      The first being the Rashford lunge near the touchline after already being booked. If TAA takes the contact he is probably off as it was a wild challenge. United down to 10 men.

      The second being the grab on Salah in the box as he went for the ball. If he goes down the ref has a big call to make. He didn't they cleared it and we were left chasing the game. Possible penalty.

      Top teams competing for trophy's will use every advantage they can gain. Its not cheating its a part we lack that could be decisive in our remaining CL games. We saw Juventus killing the flow of the game when they were 2-1 up, they have done it for years. United did the same staying down after challenges against us to take momentum away.

      Its a part of the game we must learn, in tight games it could be the difference and unless we learn to make the most of the opportunity we will continue to rue things that don't go our way.

      Good discussion topic, but I disagree with you. Personally I like that our players, especially Mo, do not dive.

      I think this is more of a refereeing issue. Mo was fouled on that play, whether or not he goes down. The referee should spot that grab and call the foul.

      I also feel like I've seen plenty of cases where Sadio and Bobby both have gone down and gotten no call. I really do think it's more on the referees.

      Now if you say we could have taken on more 1v1 situations during Saturday's match I would agree with you. I think sometimes when teams bunker in, we're more apt to just keep playing side to side with nothing really developing.

      Also, remember our outrage when Spurs did what they did? I don't want our team to become like that. There has to be some principle to hang onto. A campaign against cynical defending would be more the preferred approach for me (and when we launch that, best to sell Lovren at the same time  ;) ).
      « Last Edit: Mar 12, 2018 02:15:00 pm by Robby The Z »
      sore monad
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #3: Mar 12, 2018 02:03:52 pm
      I don't want us to win by turning into a bunch of diving Mourinhoesque cu*ts.

      I think it's a bit of a red herring in relation to this particular game as well. Better basic defending of long balls plus better movement up front ( something that's not normally a problem for us, but was on Saturday) is what we really needed to win that one.
      Jimsouse67
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #4: Mar 12, 2018 02:12:17 pm
      Good discussion topi, but I disagree with you. Personally I like that our players, especially Mo, do not dive.

      I think this is more of a refereeing issue. Mo was fouled on that play, whether or not he goes down. The referee should spot that grab and call the foul.

      I also feel like I've seen plenty of cases where Sadio and Bobby both have gone down and gotten no call. I really do think it's more on the referees.

      Now if you say we could have taken on more 1v1 situations during Saturday's match I would agree with you. I think sometimes when teams bunker in, we're more apt to just keep playing side to side with nothing really developing.

      Also, remember our outrage when Spurs did what they did? I don't want our team to become like that. There has to be some principle to hang onto. A campaign against cynical defending would be more the preferred approach for me (and when we launch that, best to sell Lovren at the same time  ;) ).
      Have to agree with this ,I'd rather win a game honestly than resort to the kind of antics employed by many teams  & certain players,but on the flip side of this, some of it is down right cheating & some of it is being clever tactically but I ceratainly see what @SM is getting at & he makes some very interesting points.
      6stringer
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #5: Mar 12, 2018 02:38:01 pm
      Carragher lay down wasting time with cramp in Istanbul during extra time :f_whistle:
      SM
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #6: Mar 12, 2018 02:48:54 pm
      Good discussion topic, but I disagree with you. Personally I like that our players, especially Mo, do not dive.

      I think this is more of a refereeing issue. Mo was fouled on that play, whether or not he goes down. The referee should spot that grab and call the foul.

      I also feel like I've seen plenty of cases where Sadio and Bobby both have gone down and gotten no call. I really do think it's more on the referees.

      Now if you say we could have taken on more 1v1 situations during Saturday's match I would agree with you. I think sometimes when teams bunker in, we're more apt to just keep playing side to side with nothing really developing.

      Also, remember our outrage when Spurs did what they did? I don't want our team to become like that. There has to be some principle to hang onto. A campaign against cynical defending would be more the preferred approach for me (and when we launch that, best to sell Lovren at the same time  ;) ).


      I'm not saying we should dive I'm saying our players need to be more clever in certain situations.
      hardcoresoldier
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #7: Mar 12, 2018 04:00:50 pm
      I agree with the sentiments of the majority of the opinions here in that i don't want to see us turn into a team of divers and pansies. It is something i am against and something that i hope doesn't spread throughout our Squad in the future. It is down to the referees to clamp down on this cheating behaviour but as we have seen for the last decade and more, referees seem reluctant to punish offenders. We all see it at corners, the amount of fouls that get committed at every corner are ridiculous, shirt pulling, holding etc.

      You were right about Arnold and Salah though, they should have gone down as contact was made.

      I can't remember how long ago it was but i remember David N'Gog diving for a penalty against Birmingham City when no contact had been made at all. It made me feel sick to the stomach that we would resort to such low measures to win a game. I don't think he was told to dive, he just did.

      The only notorious diver we ever had was Suarez but in all fairness he was absolutely kicked the f**king sh*t out of during his time in the Premier League. He received absolutely no protection from the British referees and saw to level out that bias by diving every now and then. I didn't like it but i understood why he did it.

      Ultimately it is down to the referees to ensure the laws of the game are abided by but they clearly are too incompetent to do so. Until we see a drastic improvement in officiating at the top level of the game then cheating will continue to thrive. Hopefully VAR will remove this side of the game but the way they are implementing it is so wrong at all levels.

      It's not something i advocate to be honest but i see where you are coming from.

      I honestly can't see Jürgen stooping to that level though, he is too honest and proud.

      With regards to the 1v1 situations i agree with you there but the problem with playing against a low block is that if you beat the first defender there is another one ready to take the ball from your toes within 5 yards, it's so tight in there as we saw on Saturday.

      I'm hopeful VAR will eliminate the dark arts in the future, the sooner the better. It was also highlight corrupt officiating. For me, if a player deliberately cheats to get a player sent off then that player should be sent off. If the officials become firm with diving and cheating it will stop, that is a fact. 
      tezmac
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #8: Mar 12, 2018 04:04:39 pm
      Look how Spurs behave, the is not a game goes bye when we should have had a couple of penalties
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #9: Mar 12, 2018 04:49:54 pm
      The loss to the Mancs has prompted me to start this topic.

      There were 2 defining moments (not the goals) that could have had a big influence on the game that we did not take advantage off.

      The first being the Rashford lunge near the touchline after already being booked. If TAA takes the contact he is probably off as it was a wild challenge. United down to 10 men.

      The second being the grab on Salah in the box as he went for the ball. If he goes down the ref has a big call to make. He didn't they cleared it and we were left chasing the game. Possible penalty.

      Top teams competing for trophy's will use every advantage they can gain. Its not cheating its a part we lack that could be decisive in our remaining CL games. We saw Juventus killing the flow of the game when they were 2-1 up, they have done it for years. United did the same staying down after challenges against us to take momentum away.

      Its a part of the game we must learn, in tight games it could be the difference and unless we learn to make the most of the opportunity we will continue to rue things that don't go our way.

      SM I thought that a player could be book if it is deemed that he is out of control entering a tackle... Surly Rashford was

      Not sure about the Salah incident, but would like to add a third...Valencia's reckless tackle on Mane a Yellow card at least, and some referees would have given that as a straight Red
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #10: Mar 12, 2018 05:06:49 pm
      Something else we've gone slack at. During Kenny's first reign we had this down to a fine art.
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #11: Mar 12, 2018 05:13:02 pm
      Nah not for me this. The games gone soft as it is I don't want us to contribute to that.

      One of the main things I like about it front three is how tough they are and how much they battle. It makes me love them that bit more. The same way I loved Suarez.

      It really winds me up when teams slow the game down taking ages over set pieces, throw ins and whatever else they can do to waste time. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and say we should start doing that either. I'd really hate to see us resort to those levels.

      Same way I'd hate to see us surround a referee and beg for bookings and sendings off. Only c**t teams do that. More referees should grab hold of their bollocks and book any tosser who suggests a card or tells the referee to make a decision he is more than capable of doing himself.

      We are doing just fine. We are improving bit by bit and we don't have to become mourinho like to win trophies. We will get there don't worry.
      chats
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #12: Mar 12, 2018 05:19:50 pm
      One of the main things I like about it front three is how tough they are and how much they battle. It makes me love them that bit more. The same way I loved Suarez.

      But Suarez was the master of the dark arts!
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #13: Mar 12, 2018 05:28:53 pm
      But Suarez was the master of the dark arts!

      Not sure if anyone saw him try to get deliberately booked against girona recently so he would be suspended v lad palmas in order to play v atletico madrid. Hilarious stuff, ref wasn't having it and blew the final whistle with suarez and the ref pissing themselves with laughter
      lfc across the water
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #14: Mar 12, 2018 06:38:38 pm
      Quote from HamannsTheMan
      It really winds me up when teams slow the game down taking ages over set pieces, throw ins and whatever else they can do to waste time. I'm not going to be a hypocrite and say we should start doing that either. I'd really hate to see us resort to those levels.

      And people complain about VAR wasting time.....

      It's a bit of a pointless thread this. Klopp has already made his point about this stuff, so he's not going to change. Unless people want him out, we're never going to "learn".

      Not that we need to imo. We just have to play our own game, and if we do, we'll win most of the time. Mourinho treats a ref as an inconvenience, to harass, bully, and intimidate over every decision, and if necessary be sent to the stand. It's up to the referee to see through all that. Unfortunately the likes of Pawson gets to ref games of this level and he doesn't see anything that needs a firm, strong decision to be made.

      It's 20 years since Owen was dismissed. It's 10 years since Masch was sent off, by a ref influenced by a rival match a few days before. Today, we're not getting penalties and we're still getting screwed in that kip. VAR can't come soon enough and put a stop to all that.
      SM
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #15: Mar 12, 2018 06:46:32 pm
      it ain't about changing our team to be like Mourinho or diving it's about being clever during games.

      We don't take advantage of situations like we should it's as simple as that.

      And personally I do want to see us get in the refs face a bit more when needed, we get f**k all being nice look at the Mancs game we just accepted every sh*t decision he gave them. Nothing wrong in speaking to the ref letting him know it's all one way and putting some pressure on in the correct way.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #16: Mar 12, 2018 06:51:12 pm
      Does dark arts include voodoo on opposition players, just asking for a friend
      HScRed1
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #17: Mar 12, 2018 07:11:08 pm
      As others have said I don’t want us play acting like the Mancs or diving all over the place like Spurs.

      However as witnessed on Sunday you don’t get anything given from the shithouse refs in this league.

      Salah should have gone down and give the ref something to think about and similarly TAA should have screamed out when Rashford lunged into him - Hazard is the master of the girly scream  ;D

      That’s not diving or cheating it’s just letting the Ref know an illegal act has occurred.

      Boston not la
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #18: Mar 12, 2018 07:36:34 pm
      saille29
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #19: Mar 12, 2018 07:46:51 pm
      Interesting op, if var wasn't on the horizon I'd be all for the dark arts way but it's on its way so I'm glad were not going down that route
      I think it's habitual so hopefully the main culprits will get a shock when var arrives
      It's not like a switch you can turn off after x amount of years it's in a players dna so they will revert to default moves
      Robby The Z
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #20: Mar 12, 2018 09:05:55 pm
      Does dark arts include voodoo on opposition players, just asking for a friend

      I found those needles you asked me about. What address should I send them to?
      shawspeed
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #21: Mar 12, 2018 10:40:02 pm
      If Salah had gone down under that challenge Pawson would have given him a yellow the manc loving tosser he is. Think ironically it might have been Mane who got kicked in the shoulder and not even a yellow and as for that snidy tw*t Rashford he should have walked as well. We were getting nothing in that game just like most other games at Old Toilet.
      FL Red
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #22: Mar 13, 2018 11:26:18 am
      Don't want our players diving....but until the referees start calling games fairly and calling fouls equally (a foul outside the box is surely a foul inside the box?) then I don't have an issue with them making light of ILLEGAL contact.

      Again...don't want people going down at the drop of a hat, but Bobby for instance draws very few fouls because he fights tooth and nail to stay on his feet and keep the ball when he's getting the holy crap kicked out of him, grabbed and everything else.

      Sometimes you need to "enhance" your reaction a bit to make sure the referee is forced to make the right call. It's a shame,  but  unfortunately that's what the game has become. If everyone else is going to take advantage of those situations, we'd be silly not to.

      Good topic SM.

      Harrisimo
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #23: Mar 13, 2018 11:39:01 am
      With VAR coming in a year or two I don't think it's a good idea for us to start falling over in the area and feigning injury to get other players sent off.

      That's not " dark arts" that's cheating. We were calling Kane and Dele the Diver out for cheating, now this thread is advocating we do the same.

      ...leave it out......and do we need to darken our image any further...think not.
      FL Red
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #24: Mar 13, 2018 01:11:23 pm
      With VAR coming in a year or two I don't think it's a good idea for us to start falling over in the area and feigning injury to get other players sent off.

      That's not " dark arts" that's cheating. We were calling Kane and Dele the Diver out for cheating, now this thread is advocating we do the same.

      ...leave it out......and do we need to darken our image any further...think not.

      I don't see anyone advocating that our players feign injury or dive.

      I think what people are saying is the only way for us to get fouls in key moments may be to go down when there's contact to warrant it, as opposed to fighting to stay on your feet when you are going to end up losing the ball anyway and no foul be called.
      SM
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #25: Mar 13, 2018 02:11:02 pm
      With VAR coming in a year or two I don't think it's a good idea for us to start falling over in the area and feigning injury to get other players sent off.

      That's not " dark arts" that's cheating. We were calling Kane and Dele the Diver out for cheating, now this thread is advocating we do the same.

      ...leave it out......and do we need to darken our image any further...think not.

      What are you going on about?

      No one has said cheat at all and what do you mean "darken" our image even further?
      Harrisimo
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #26: Mar 13, 2018 03:06:27 pm
      What are you going on about?

      No one has said cheat at all and what do you mean "darken" our image even further?

      When you title a thread claiming we should learn the Dark Arts,I think it's totally ridiculous to moan if somebody says that is tantamount to cheating.

      Our image has taken a battering over the Carra spitting disgrace. So threads saying we should learn the Dark arts is bad timing.

      We should endeavour to play the game fairly and with integrity. That is indeed the way Klopp plays it. However players will do things, in the heat of the battle, that might not be totally honest. That happens with ALL teams. But we should NEVER EVER set out to deceive by learning the Dark Arts.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #27: Mar 13, 2018 04:32:25 pm
      The image outlined above, is a road rage incident, and has nothing to do with Liverpool FC. It's a private matter to sort out between the various parties concerned.
      fields of anny rd
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #28: Mar 13, 2018 09:55:36 pm
      Sevilla just gave us a masterclass really.

      Conceded to make it 2-1. Made 2 seperate subs within 2 minutes of each other. Gave away free kicks by their own corner flag. Gave Rashford a really good kicking. Referee added a mere 4 minutes of added time and the sting was out of the game. They also kept the ball well when the ball broke to them without looking to score at every opportunity, just waited and picked their moment.
      Dadorious
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      Re: The dark arts of football....things we must learn.
      Reply #29: Mar 14, 2018 02:09:14 am
      Sevilla just gave us a masterclass really.

      Conceded to make it 2-1. Made 2 seperate subs within 2 minutes of each other. Gave away free kicks by their own corner flag. Gave Rashford a really good kicking. Referee added a mere 4 minutes of added time and the sting was out of the game. They also kept the ball well when the ball broke to them without looking to score at every opportunity, just waited and picked their moment.
      I actually thought Sevilla did a terrible job of closing out the game they weren't interested in keeping the ball at 2-0 and were wasteful in possession and chances. Few inches here there and the odd unexpected bounce of the ball and we all could have well and truly be sitting here bemoaning another United come back. Take nothing away from Sevilla though they were the better team over the two legs and deserve to go through.

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