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      Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

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      Fourbrick
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #475: Oct 04, 2018 11:04:48 am
      If he clearly thought the front three were wasteful, he should have out Shaq and Studge on.
      Scotia
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #476: Oct 04, 2018 11:08:36 am
      If he clearly thought the front three were wasteful, he should have out Shaq and Studge on.

      Overall I agree re subs.

      However I think Shaq was the one to potentially change the shape.

      With Studge you’re really hoping for a moment of magic as he’s unlikely to contribute much in open play in a game like that. Worth having on there for 15 mins anyway though just for that.
      stuey
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #477: Oct 04, 2018 11:28:51 am
      If he clearly thought the front three were wasteful, he should have out Shaq and Studge on.

      Studge most definitely should have played a bigger part of the second half, would have given us a fresher edge to the front line.
      DanMann
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #478: Oct 04, 2018 12:11:39 pm
      Missed the 2nd half, but as it turns out, I missed nothing at all.

      Despite his goal scoring record, it was surprising to see no starting place for Sturridge again, and then to throw him on with only minutes remaining. Firmino has done nothing to keep a place ahead of him. Yet, it's all too predictable. Firmino will start every time.

      billythered
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #479: Oct 04, 2018 12:15:24 pm
      I don't really know where to start after that. I feel sorry for the travelling reds because that performance was arguably our worst under Jürgen so far. Those type of performances have been extremely rare under klopp to be fair but Jesus Christ we were truly awful tonight. Really abysmal. I don't even remember us having a shot. Very unlike us.

      I said in the pre match thread that if we lost tonight it wouldnt have been a disaster because of our win over PSG and Napolis draw in Belgrade. We could have made some changes and focused solely on city at the weekend which is a much bigger game.

      We didn't do that and we fielded our strongest 11 instead. Thats absolutely fine but only if you get the bloody win and we didn't. I now feel klopp has made a massive mistake because we've already lost Keita through injury and I'm sure some of our other key players won't be 100% for the weekend after that game either. And for what? Nothing, that's what. I said there was no reason to risk anyone but we did...and we got caught out. Stupid in my opinion.

      Theres little point talking about the game because we were bossed all over the pitch. There were only two players who came out with any credit tonight and that's Joe Gomez who for the majority of the match was immense I thought, and Alisson who continues to justify his transfer fee with another solid performance in goal.

      The full backs and front three were all poor tonight but once again that midfield three of Henderson gini and Milner was just shocking. Dreadful all three of them. You need your midfield more than ever in these type of games but they didn't show up.

      The result is disappointing but we can bounce back and recover from it and I'm sure we will. I've got to say though, there were a couple of warning signs for me regarding our performance.

      Back in the summer I repeatedly said that we need to do three things to improve and win trophies. 1. Replace Lovren who is a liability. 2. Upgrade on Henderson. 3. Add real proper quality in the CAM position.

      We've replaced Lovren with Gomez and we look a million times better at the back now. I can't see Lovren getting back into the team providing Gomez stays fit and keeps his form up. I've got no doubt at all that if Lovren had played every minute this season then he would have made at least one crucial error by now that would have led to a goal. So number 1 is completed.

      Number 2 is currently in process. Henderson has been left out of some games this season and whenever he has we have looked far superior in my opinion. When he has played, we've not looked anywhere near as good. The balance isn't right and other players performances have been affected just to accommodate him. If Klopp takes him out of the side and plays either Wijnaldum or Fabinho then I've got no doubt we will perform better and pick up more wins. If klopp continues to play him then I feel we will lose games occasionally and drop points/exit competitions.

      Number 3 didn't happen. Maybe we can mold shaqiri into a CAM but my preference would be to sign somebody in January if they're available. Similar to number 2, I feel not having a CAM could hurt us this season, especially in games like tonight where the front three are stinking the place out and just aren't firing. That's when you need a bit of quality or magic from the middle of the park and we just don't have it.

      There is a long way to go obviously but numbed 2 and number 3 so concern me.

      But anyway, we put this one behind us now, forget about it and we move on. We have city next and that game is a f**king massive one. We cannot lose. The midfield three who played most of the game today will probably start and they really have to book their ideas up if we're going to get anything out of it. I'm expecting a massive reaction on Sunday from each and every one of them.




      Agree with most of your post H, we were sh*te that's the truth and yes you can count the 'Sh*te' performances under Klopp in one hand,

      As for playing a full strength side and getting beat, well that's just football as Jürgen often refers to, now had we made changes like you suggested we may have still lost and by a bit more and picked up a injury, so to me there isn't a lot of difference,
      The performance alone in fact  could be used as a kick up the arse for Sunday, I'm betting we won't play as bad again this season and definitely not against City,

      We have back to back wins against RSB to look forward to, which in all honesty should take us into the knock out stages and possibly beyond...

      I'm not so concerned about how we played but i do expect a reaction on Sunday, if anything I'll simply put it down to a bad day at the office and we very simply ...Go Again...


      Any news on Naby ?


      YNWA
      RobieSlick
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #480: Oct 04, 2018 12:16:25 pm
      In fairness I think we should be gracious enough to credit Ancelotti for his part in that. He got his tactics spot on. Klopp did not.

      So, what fuuuuk did he do to turn us into Scum United?
      harrydunn08
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #481: Oct 04, 2018 12:51:40 pm
      So, what fuuuuk did he do to turn us into Scum United?

      Dude, we had 1 sh*t game.   We are still sitting pretty in the league table, and still look well positioned to advance to the knockout stage of CL.  Calm the overreaction.
      Dadorious
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #482: Oct 04, 2018 12:59:07 pm
      Mad Italian bas**rds just read that Milik was mugged for his 20k Rolex in his way home from the match.
      srslfc
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #483: Oct 04, 2018 01:12:08 pm
      Dude, we had 1 sh*t game.   We are still sitting pretty in the league table, and still look well positioned to advance to the knockout stage of CL.  Calm the overreaction.

        ;D

      Agree mate and the overreaction from fans these days is crazy.

      Can't be doing with it.
      Swab
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #484: Oct 04, 2018 01:16:42 pm
        ;D

      Agree mate and the overreaction from fans these days is crazy.

      Can't be doing with it.

      A bad day at the office.
      Sh*t happens.

      Watched it again this morning, and really, Ancelotti didn't do anything special that I could see.
      Bottom line is that their players were pumped up as f**k, and ours weren't, and that continually put us on the back foot.

      The defense and midfield were actually OK, the front 3 were really out of sorts.

      I know the pitch was a bit sh*t, and the ref was a bit sh*t as well, but those are just excuses.
      srslfc
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #485: Oct 04, 2018 01:53:49 pm
      A bad day at the office.
      Sh*t happens.

      Watched it again this morning, and really, Ancelotti didn't do anything special that I could see.
      Bottom line is that their players were pumped up as f**k, and ours weren't, and that continually put us on the back foot.

      The defense and midfield were actually OK, the front 3 were really out of sorts.

      I know the pitch was a bit sh*t, and the ref was a bit sh*t as well, but those are just excuses.

      Interesting you say the midfield was OK Swab as I've seen a bit of talk of lack of creativity when it was Hendo, Milner and Gini.
      Swab
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #486: Oct 04, 2018 01:58:46 pm
      Interesting you say the midfield was OK Swab as I've seen a bit of talk of lack of creativity when it was Hendo, Milner and Gini.

      Yes, and I think that's rubbish.

      Our creativity comes from the fullbacks, and the wide forwards tucking in, with Firmino dropping deeper into midfield.

      The 2 higher midfielders drop in behind the fullbacks as the push up, to cover or provide support for an attack from wide positions, the supposed DM is there to recycle the ball and keep it wide.
      Creating space and providing movement are the territory of the front 3.
      Last night they did neither, but the midfield did their jobs reasonably well.

      It has to be said that their defense was very aggressive in closing down players and space, and they always had at least 1 midfielder dropping deep to help what was essentially a back 5, when one of our forwards got the ball they immediately had 2 or 3 defenders around them, with no channel to play a pass because they were blocked off.
      Our attack then became quite static because they couldn't find the space, or create any.

      Chelsea did something similar by playing Kante in a wider role.
      It stifles the attacking fullbacks, but also forces the midfielders wider to stop a counter.

      TL;DR Ancelotti is no mug.
      « Last Edit: Oct 04, 2018 02:08:32 pm by Swab »
      lreland
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #487: Oct 04, 2018 02:05:09 pm
      Glad we got knock out league cup , looking at last nite last few games these squad not big enough go on all fronts
      Brian78
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #488: Oct 04, 2018 02:05:32 pm
      We looked flat, had an off day and got Liverpooled. Move in

      We arent so good that we will be perfect  all season. Response is key now
      lreland
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #489: Oct 04, 2018 02:08:25 pm
      I felt we got one more player in summer someone like David Silva type player would make team so much better in break teams down keep ball better
      Scotia
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #490: Oct 04, 2018 02:08:52 pm
      Yes, and I think that's rubbish.

      Our creativity comes from the fullbacks, and the wide forwards tucking in, with Firmino dropping deeper into midfield.

      The 2 higher midfielders drop in behind the fullbacks as the push up, to cover or provide support for an attack from wide positions, the supposed DM is there to recycle the ball and keep it wide.
      Creating space and providing movement are the territory of the front 3.
      Last night they did neither, but the midfield did their jobs reasonably well.

      I kinda agree but I DO think the midfield has been needing freshened for weeks.

      Full backs were poor - especially TAA who PSG aside has been sub-par all season - and the forwards could not retain possession which meant midfield were trying to cover the full backs, whilst constantly having to win the ball back.......as Jürgen said “impossible”. They looked knackered - especially Gini and Milner (whose distribution has been woeful for weeks).

      All that said - I still thought they were as poor as the rest of the team.

      We need a minor shake-up but we’ll be back on it in no time.....
      FL Red
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #491: Oct 04, 2018 02:11:52 pm
      Interesting you say the midfield was OK Swab as I've seen a bit of talk of lack of creativity when it was Hendo, Milner and Gini.

      Midfield was poor. I think out of something like 87 passes from our midfielders, only 12 were forward. Gini and Henderson were particularly crap. They've got to do a better job of dictating play. I saw nothing from Napoli that made me think our midfielders were under any more pressure than they normally are...they just had a crap game, unfortunately all of them at the same time.
      Swab
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #492: Oct 04, 2018 02:13:17 pm
      I kinda agree but I DO think the midfield has been needing freshened for weeks.

      Full backs were poor - especially TAA who PSG aside has been sub-par all season - and the forwards could not retain possession which meant midfield were trying to cover the full backs whilst constantly having to win the ball back.......as Jürgen said “impossible”. They looked knackered - especially Gini and Milner (whose distribution has been woeful for weeks).

      All that said - I still thought they were as poor as the rest of the team.

      We need a minor shake-up but we’ll be back on it in no time.....

      I edited the post to add more mate.

      Got called and hit "post" then had to edit to add the rest  :laugh:
      Yes, I'm sh*t at computers.

      I think you're right that we need to have the players "freshen up" a bit, but I think this is a consequence of Klopp's pre-seasons, where he really works the players hard.
      It's kind of like they need to get a second wind.

      We'll face more teams playing those sort of tactics as the season goes on, but I'm not really worried about that right now.

      What we need more than that is for Salah and Firmino to play themselves into form, but that'll happen as well.
      Last season it took a while before they really got going, and this season is pretty much the same.
      Scotia
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #493: Oct 04, 2018 02:24:56 pm

      I think you're right that we need to have the players "freshen up" a bit, but I think this is a consequence of Klopp's pre-seasons, where he really works the players hard.
      It's kind of like they need to get a second wind.

      I think that’s spot on - posted earlier on that I think he’s planned on getting to here to bed the new guys in........but we’ve gone on the unbeaten run, the new boys in the middle have started slow and the front 3 look rusty.......

      *btw - I made a total arse of my first attempt to post that and had to delete.......so don’t feel too bad 🤣
      Swab
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #494: Oct 04, 2018 02:33:17 pm
      I think that’s spot on - posted earlier on that I think he’s planned on getting to here to bed the new guys in........but we’ve gone on the unbeaten run, the new boys in the middle have started slow and the front 3 look rusty.......

      *btw - I made a total arse of my first attempt to post that and had to delete.......so don’t feel too bad 🤣

       :laugh:
      Oh I don't feel bad mate, my youngest lad is a computer whizz (he's got a masters) and is always ripping the piss out of me the little sh*te.   :lmao:

      I think there's a huge misconception about what our midfield is supposed to do, and I see an awful lot of posts banging on about creativity, but it misses the point that our midfielders are essentially support players for the FB's and forwards, with Firmino often dropping into midfield to create.
      The 3 of Henderson, Gini and Milner works by 2 going wider, 1 dropping deeper, to create a pocket for Firmino to operate in, and also to provide cover (and some support) for the fullbacks.
      You'll often see 1 midfielder coming central (the FB stays deep) in front of Henderson, then drift wide to drag an opponent out of the space we want open for Firmino.
      It's a very non traditional system, where the emphasis is on space rather than positions; how and where to occupy it, and for what reason.

      keita is a player who, like Ox, will be used as a runner to break the opposition lines, which creates space behind and in front of them.
      Klopp's trying to do it with Milner at the moment, but it doesn't always work, particularly when the opposition are very well organised, and keep their shape.
      Billo
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #495: Oct 04, 2018 02:45:24 pm
      Yes, and I think that's rubbish.

      Our creativity comes from the fullbacks, and the wide forwards tucking in, with Firmino dropping deeper into midfield.

      The 2 higher midfielders drop in behind the fullbacks as the push up, to cover or provide support for an attack from wide positions, the supposed DM is there to recycle the ball and keep it wide.
      Creating space and providing movement are the territory of the front 3.
      Last night they did neither, but the midfield did their jobs reasonably well.

      It has to be said that their defense was very aggressive in closing down players and space, and they always had at least 1 midfielder dropping deep to help what was essentially a back 5, when one of our forwards got the ball they immediately had 2 or 3 defenders around them, with no channel to play a pass because they were blocked off.
      Our attack then became quite static because they couldn't find the space, or create any.

      Chelsea did something similar by playing Kante in a wider role.
      It stifles the attacking fullbacks, but also forces the midfielders wider to stop a counter.

      TL;DR Ancelotti is no mug.

      i agree with your previous post on that it was just shitty day at office. no need for panicking yet. But we do lack in creativity in our midfield when gini, milner and henderson play together. We do have attacking fullbacks and its a good thing but that doesnt mean we shouldnt have a more creative midfielder on the pitch. Offcourse it depends on who we play against but a creative cm/ or a am could do wonders with our attack.
      There would be less need for our front three to fall down to get the ball, there would be less pressure on salah and mane to force things. Things are going well this season and long may it continue. we should always look to be a better team and a magic spark will defiantly do that.
      Danzel
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #496: Oct 04, 2018 02:48:53 pm
      I think there's a huge misconception about what our midfield is supposed to do, and I see an awful lot of posts banging on about creativity, but it misses the point that our midfielders are essentially support players for the FB's and forwards, with Firmino often dropping into midfield to create.

      Just took this little bit out of your post. It's something that annoys me to no end and I've given up trying to explain it. Our midfielders' main job is not to create. We essentially have FIVE creative players on the pitch: two full backs and the front three. One of the more advanced midfielders will also play a more offensive role. Surely that should be enough? The other two are one behind the ball and one level with the ball to protect our defense, defend the space and cut off passing lanes into the opposition forwards.

      Last night was a case where literally every single one of our creative players had a poor game. Trent was awful, Robertson was poor, Salah and Firmino couldn't get in the game and Mane was always instantly crowded out with no passing options.

      We didn't look good last night, but overall in the two Chelsea games, we played very good in my opinion. Results just didn't go our way. We should've never lost in the League Cup with the amount of chances that we had and a draw away to Chelsea, a team against we struggle a lot usually, is pretty good going.

      Is a midfield three of Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner our best midfield? Of course not. Sometimes they cancel each other out, but that's a completely different discussion to why we didn't create anything yesterday or what it is exactly that Klopp wants from our midfield, that's down to the individual qualities of the players.
      Scotia
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #497: Oct 04, 2018 02:51:16 pm
      Just took this little bit out of your post. It's something that annoys me to no end and I've given up trying to explain it. Our midfielders' main job is not to create. We essentially have FIVE creative players on the pitch: two full backs and the front three. One of the more advanced midfielders will also play a more offensive role. Surely that should be enough? The other two are one behind the ball and one level with the ball to protect our defense, defend the space and cut off passing lanes into the opposition forwards.

      Last night was a case where literally every single one of our creative players had a poor game. Trent was awful, Robertson was poor, Salah and Firmino couldn't get in the game and Mane was always instantly crowded out with no passing options.

      We didn't look good last night, but overall in the two Chelsea games, we played very good in my opinion. Results just didn't go our way. We should've never lost in the League Cup with the amount of chances that we had and a draw away to Chelsea, a team against we struggle a lot usually, is pretty good going.

      I think people also confuse “fluency” and potency.

      Yes we can play football and will often play through you........but we’d rather scare the sh*t out of you and keep u on your heels not knowing where the next wave is coming from........
      Swab
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #498: Oct 04, 2018 02:59:44 pm
      I think people also confuse “fluency” and potency.

      Yes we can play football and will often play through you........but we’d rather scare the sh*t out of you and keep u on your heels not knowing where the next wave is coming from........

      I think this is a good point.

      Watch the opposition panic and try to reorganise when Gomez or VVD go past Henderson and drive forwards.
      It creates so much space, even if it only last for a few seconds, and the beauty of it is that often, the guy who has stepped in to stop Gomez or VVD often follow them when they drop back again, leaving another gap to exploit.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #499: Oct 04, 2018 03:02:00 pm
      Just took this little bit out of your post. It's something that annoys me to no end and I've given up trying to explain it. Our midfielders' main job is not to create. We essentially have FIVE creative players on the pitch: two full backs and the front three. One of the more advanced midfielders will also play a more offensive role. Surely that should be enough? The other two are one behind the ball and one level with the ball to protect our defense, defend the space and cut off passing lanes into the opposition forwards.

      Last night was a case where literally every single one of our creative players had a poor game. Trent was awful, Robertson was poor, Salah and Firmino couldn't get in the game and Mane was always instantly crowded out with no passing options.

      We didn't look good last night, but overall in the two Chelsea games, we played very good in my opinion. Results just didn't go our way. We should've never lost in the League Cup with the amount of chances that we had and a draw away to Chelsea, a team against we struggle a lot usually, is pretty good going.

      Is a midfield three of Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner our best midfield? Of course not. Sometimes they cancel each other out, but that's a completely different discussion to why we didn't create anything yesterday or what it is exactly that Klopp wants from our midfield, that's down to the individual qualities of the players.

      What Swab posted I have noticed more frequent this season where our midfielders (even Keita) have been dropping in deeper to cover our full backs when they are pushed up. But don't you feel that link between midfield and attack is missing when we see the Gini, Milner and Hendo trio? Don't you think having a more dynamic creative player would add more dominance? Yes, we would be slightly more vulnerable out of possession, but it's all about getting that balance right, right?

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