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      Q. LFC Man of the Match v Napoli?

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      Voting closed: Oct 07, 2018 09:55:03 pm

      Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

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      srslfc
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #483: Oct 04, 2018 01:12:08 pm
      Dude, we had 1 sh*t game.   We are still sitting pretty in the league table, and still look well positioned to advance to the knockout stage of CL.  Calm the overreaction.

        ;D

      Agree mate and the overreaction from fans these days is crazy.

      Can't be doing with it.
      Swab
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #484: Oct 04, 2018 01:16:42 pm
        ;D

      Agree mate and the overreaction from fans these days is crazy.

      Can't be doing with it.

      A bad day at the office.
      sh*t happens.

      Watched it again this morning, and really, Ancelotti didn't do anything special that I could see.
      Bottom line is that their players were pumped up as F**k, and ours weren't, and that continually put us on the back foot.

      The defense and midfield were actually OK, the front 3 were really out of sorts.

      I know the pitch was a bit sh*t, and the ref was a bit sh*t as well, but those are just excuses.
      srslfc
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #485: Oct 04, 2018 01:53:49 pm
      A bad day at the office.
      sh*t happens.

      Watched it again this morning, and really, Ancelotti didn't do anything special that I could see.
      Bottom line is that their players were pumped up as F**k, and ours weren't, and that continually put us on the back foot.

      The defense and midfield were actually OK, the front 3 were really out of sorts.

      I know the pitch was a bit sh*t, and the ref was a bit sh*t as well, but those are just excuses.

      Interesting you say the midfield was OK Swab as I've seen a bit of talk of lack of creativity when it was Hendo, Milner and Gini.
      Swab
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #486: Oct 04, 2018 01:58:46 pm
      Interesting you say the midfield was OK Swab as I've seen a bit of talk of lack of creativity when it was Hendo, Milner and Gini.

      Yes, and I think that's rubbish.

      Our creativity comes from the fullbacks, and the wide forwards tucking in, with Firmino dropping deeper into midfield.

      The 2 higher midfielders drop in behind the fullbacks as the push up, to cover or provide support for an attack from wide positions, the supposed DM is there to recycle the ball and keep it wide.
      Creating space and providing movement are the territory of the front 3.
      Last night they did neither, but the midfield did their jobs reasonably well.

      It has to be said that their defense was very aggressive in closing down players and space, and they always had at least 1 midfielder dropping deep to help what was essentially a back 5, when one of our forwards got the ball they immediately had 2 or 3 defenders around them, with no channel to play a pass because they were blocked off.
      Our attack then became quite static because they couldn't find the space, or create any.

      Chelsea did something similar by playing Kante in a wider role.
      It stifles the attacking fullbacks, but also forces the midfielders wider to stop a counter.

      TL;DR Ancelotti is no mug.
      « Last Edit: Oct 04, 2018 02:08:32 pm by Swab »
      lreland
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #487: Oct 04, 2018 02:05:09 pm
      Glad we got knock out league cup , looking at last nite last few games these squad not big enough go on all fronts
      Brian78
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #488: Oct 04, 2018 02:05:32 pm
      We looked flat, had an off day and got Liverpooled. Move in

      We arent so good that we will be perfect  all season. Response is key now
      lreland
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #489: Oct 04, 2018 02:08:25 pm
      I felt we got one more player in summer someone like David Silva type player would make team so much better in break teams down keep ball better
      Scotia
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #490: Oct 04, 2018 02:08:52 pm
      Yes, and I think that's rubbish.

      Our creativity comes from the fullbacks, and the wide forwards tucking in, with Firmino dropping deeper into midfield.

      The 2 higher midfielders drop in behind the fullbacks as the push up, to cover or provide support for an attack from wide positions, the supposed DM is there to recycle the ball and keep it wide.
      Creating space and providing movement are the territory of the front 3.
      Last night they did neither, but the midfield did their jobs reasonably well.

      I kinda agree but I DO think the midfield has been needing freshened for weeks.

      Full backs were poor - especially TAA who PSG aside has been sub-par all season - and the forwards could not retain possession which meant midfield were trying to cover the full backs, whilst constantly having to win the ball back.......as JĆ¼rgen said ā€œimpossibleā€. They looked knackered - especially Gini and Milner (whose distribution has been woeful for weeks).

      All that said - I still thought they were as poor as the rest of the team.

      We need a minor shake-up but weā€™ll be back on it in no time.....
      FL Red
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #491: Oct 04, 2018 02:11:52 pm
      Interesting you say the midfield was OK Swab as I've seen a bit of talk of lack of creativity when it was Hendo, Milner and Gini.

      Midfield was poor. I think out of something like 87 passes from our midfielders, only 12 were forward. Gini and Henderson were particularly crap. They've got to do a better job of dictating play. I saw nothing from Napoli that made me think our midfielders were under any more pressure than they normally are...they just had a crap game, unfortunately all of them at the same time.
      Swab
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #492: Oct 04, 2018 02:13:17 pm
      I kinda agree but I DO think the midfield has been needing freshened for weeks.

      Full backs were poor - especially TAA who PSG aside has been sub-par all season - and the forwards could not retain possession which meant midfield were trying to cover the full backs whilst constantly having to win the ball back.......as JĆ¼rgen said ā€œimpossibleā€. They looked knackered - especially Gini and Milner (whose distribution has been woeful for weeks).

      All that said - I still thought they were as poor as the rest of the team.

      We need a minor shake-up but weā€™ll be back on it in no time.....

      I edited the post to add more mate.

      Got called and hit "post" then had to edit to add the rest  :laugh:
      Yes, I'm sh*t at computers.

      I think you're right that we need to have the players "freshen up" a bit, but I think this is a consequence of Klopp's pre-seasons, where he really works the players hard.
      It's kind of like they need to get a second wind.

      We'll face more teams playing those sort of tactics as the season goes on, but I'm not really worried about that right now.

      What we need more than that is for Salah and Firmino to play themselves into form, but that'll happen as well.
      Last season it took a while before they really got going, and this season is pretty much the same.
      Scotia
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #493: Oct 04, 2018 02:24:56 pm

      I think you're right that we need to have the players "freshen up" a bit, but I think this is a consequence of Klopp's pre-seasons, where he really works the players hard.
      It's kind of like they need to get a second wind.

      I think thatā€™s spot on - posted earlier on that I think heā€™s planned on getting to here to bed the new guys in........but weā€™ve gone on the unbeaten run, the new boys in the middle have started slow and the front 3 look rusty.......

      *btw - I made a total arse of my first attempt to post that and had to delete.......so donā€™t feel too bad 🤣
      Swab
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #494: Oct 04, 2018 02:33:17 pm
      I think thatā€™s spot on - posted earlier on that I think heā€™s planned on getting to here to bed the new guys in........but weā€™ve gone on the unbeaten run, the new boys in the middle have started slow and the front 3 look rusty.......

      *btw - I made a total arse of my first attempt to post that and had to delete.......so donā€™t feel too bad 🤣

       :laugh:
      Oh I don't feel bad mate, my youngest lad is a computer whizz (he's got a masters) and is always ripping the piss out of me the little sh*te.   :lmao:

      I think there's a huge misconception about what our midfield is supposed to do, and I see an awful lot of posts banging on about creativity, but it misses the point that our midfielders are essentially support players for the FB's and forwards, with Firmino often dropping into midfield to create.
      The 3 of Henderson, Gini and Milner works by 2 going wider, 1 dropping deeper, to create a pocket for Firmino to operate in, and also to provide cover (and some support) for the fullbacks.
      You'll often see 1 midfielder coming central (the FB stays deep) in front of Henderson, then drift wide to drag an opponent out of the space we want open for Firmino.
      It's a very non traditional system, where the emphasis is on space rather than positions; how and where to occupy it, and for what reason.

      keita is a player who, like Ox, will be used as a runner to break the opposition lines, which creates space behind and in front of them.
      Klopp's trying to do it with Milner at the moment, but it doesn't always work, particularly when the opposition are very well organised, and keep their shape.
      Billo
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #495: Oct 04, 2018 02:45:24 pm
      Yes, and I think that's rubbish.

      Our creativity comes from the fullbacks, and the wide forwards tucking in, with Firmino dropping deeper into midfield.

      The 2 higher midfielders drop in behind the fullbacks as the push up, to cover or provide support for an attack from wide positions, the supposed DM is there to recycle the ball and keep it wide.
      Creating space and providing movement are the territory of the front 3.
      Last night they did neither, but the midfield did their jobs reasonably well.

      It has to be said that their defense was very aggressive in closing down players and space, and they always had at least 1 midfielder dropping deep to help what was essentially a back 5, when one of our forwards got the ball they immediately had 2 or 3 defenders around them, with no channel to play a pass because they were blocked off.
      Our attack then became quite static because they couldn't find the space, or create any.

      Chelsea did something similar by playing Kante in a wider role.
      It stifles the attacking fullbacks, but also forces the midfielders wider to stop a counter.

      TL;DR Ancelotti is no mug.

      i agree with your previous post on that it was just shitty day at office. no need for panicking yet. But we do lack in creativity in our midfield when gini, milner and henderson play together. We do have attacking fullbacks and its a good thing but that doesnt mean we shouldnt have a more creative midfielder on the pitch. Offcourse it depends on who we play against but a creative cm/ or a am could do wonders with our attack.
      There would be less need for our front three to fall down to get the ball, there would be less pressure on salah and mane to force things. Things are going well this season and long may it continue. we should always look to be a better team and a magic spark will defiantly do that.
      Danzel
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #496: Oct 04, 2018 02:48:53 pm
      I think there's a huge misconception about what our midfield is supposed to do, and I see an awful lot of posts banging on about creativity, but it misses the point that our midfielders are essentially support players for the FB's and forwards, with Firmino often dropping into midfield to create.

      Just took this little bit out of your post. It's something that annoys me to no end and I've given up trying to explain it. Our midfielders' main job is not to create. We essentially have FIVE creative players on the pitch: two full backs and the front three. One of the more advanced midfielders will also play a more offensive role. Surely that should be enough? The other two are one behind the ball and one level with the ball to protect our defense, defend the space and cut off passing lanes into the opposition forwards.

      Last night was a case where literally every single one of our creative players had a poor game. Trent was awful, Robertson was poor, Salah and Firmino couldn't get in the game and Mane was always instantly crowded out with no passing options.

      We didn't look good last night, but overall in the two Chelsea games, we played very good in my opinion. Results just didn't go our way. We should've never lost in the League Cup with the amount of chances that we had and a draw away to Chelsea, a team against we struggle a lot usually, is pretty good going.

      Is a midfield three of Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner our best midfield? Of course not. Sometimes they cancel each other out, but that's a completely different discussion to why we didn't create anything yesterday or what it is exactly that Klopp wants from our midfield, that's down to the individual qualities of the players.
      Scotia
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #497: Oct 04, 2018 02:51:16 pm
      Just took this little bit out of your post. It's something that annoys me to no end and I've given up trying to explain it. Our midfielders' main job is not to create. We essentially have FIVE creative players on the pitch: two full backs and the front three. One of the more advanced midfielders will also play a more offensive role. Surely that should be enough? The other two are one behind the ball and one level with the ball to protect our defense, defend the space and cut off passing lanes into the opposition forwards.

      Last night was a case where literally every single one of our creative players had a poor game. Trent was awful, Robertson was poor, Salah and Firmino couldn't get in the game and Mane was always instantly crowded out with no passing options.

      We didn't look good last night, but overall in the two Chelsea games, we played very good in my opinion. Results just didn't go our way. We should've never lost in the League Cup with the amount of chances that we had and a draw away to Chelsea, a team against we struggle a lot usually, is pretty good going.

      I think people also confuse ā€œfluencyā€ and potency.

      Yes we can play football and will often play through you........but weā€™d rather scare the sh*t out of you and keep u on your heels not knowing where the next wave is coming from........
      Swab
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #498: Oct 04, 2018 02:59:44 pm
      I think people also confuse ā€œfluencyā€ and potency.

      Yes we can play football and will often play through you........but weā€™d rather scare the sh*t out of you and keep u on your heels not knowing where the next wave is coming from........

      I think this is a good point.

      Watch the opposition panic and try to reorganise when Gomez or VVD go past Henderson and drive forwards.
      It creates so much space, even if it only last for a few seconds, and the beauty of it is that often, the guy who has stepped in to stop Gomez or VVD often follow them when they drop back again, leaving another gap to exploit.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #499: Oct 04, 2018 03:02:00 pm
      Just took this little bit out of your post. It's something that annoys me to no end and I've given up trying to explain it. Our midfielders' main job is not to create. We essentially have FIVE creative players on the pitch: two full backs and the front three. One of the more advanced midfielders will also play a more offensive role. Surely that should be enough? The other two are one behind the ball and one level with the ball to protect our defense, defend the space and cut off passing lanes into the opposition forwards.

      Last night was a case where literally every single one of our creative players had a poor game. Trent was awful, Robertson was poor, Salah and Firmino couldn't get in the game and Mane was always instantly crowded out with no passing options.

      We didn't look good last night, but overall in the two Chelsea games, we played very good in my opinion. Results just didn't go our way. We should've never lost in the League Cup with the amount of chances that we had and a draw away to Chelsea, a team against we struggle a lot usually, is pretty good going.

      Is a midfield three of Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner our best midfield? Of course not. Sometimes they cancel each other out, but that's a completely different discussion to why we didn't create anything yesterday or what it is exactly that Klopp wants from our midfield, that's down to the individual qualities of the players.

      What Swab posted I have noticed more frequent this season where our midfielders (even Keita) have been dropping in deeper to cover our full backs when they are pushed up. But don't you feel that link between midfield and attack is missing when we see the Gini, Milner and Hendo trio? Don't you think having a more dynamic creative player would add more dominance? Yes, we would be slightly more vulnerable out of possession, but it's all about getting that balance right, right?
      Swab
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #500: Oct 04, 2018 03:10:08 pm
      What Swab posted I have noticed more frequent this season where our midfielders (even Keita) have been dropping in deeper to cover our full backs when they are pushed up. But don't you feel that link between midfield and attack is missing when we see the Gini, Milner and Hendo trio? Don't you think having a more dynamic creative player would add more dominance? Yes, we would be slightly more vulnerable out of possession, but it's all about getting that balance right, right?

      I think that link is the fullbacks.
      In fact I don't really think of them as fullbacks, more as wingbacks.

      If we're pushing 5 players forwards, we're left with 2 midfielders covering behind, 1 midfielder central and recycling possession, and 2 CB,s alongside or behind him.
      To get a midfield support runner in, to break the lines, one of those fullbacks has to stay deep.

      Our whole system of play when attacking relies on nearly every player being in the opposition half, which makes it very crowded.
      That's why we see Henderson pick up the ball, and drop a bit deeper, faffing about with the 2 CB's until the opposition come out a bit, then we go wide again.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #501: Oct 04, 2018 03:18:48 pm
      I think that link is the fullbacks.
      In fact I don't really think of them as fullbacks, more as wingbacks.

      If we're pushing 5 players forwards, we're left with 2 midfielders covering behind, 1 midfielder central and recycling possession, and 2 CB,s alongside or behind him.
      To get a midfield support runner in, to break the lines, one of those fullbacks has to stay deep.

      Our whole system of play when attacking relies on nearly every player being in the opposition half, which makes it very crowded.
      That's why we see Henderson pick up the ball, and drop a bit deeper, faffing about with the 2 CB's until the opposition come out a bit, then we go wide again.

      Second half of last season was more, if one full back goes, the other stays back a bit, right? But it's different this season and very noticable.

      The only time I don't think I saw it happen was vs Southampton in the first half (think I will re-watch that half later), and I thought we killed it, but Klopp didn't seem to like what he saw from a defensive standpoint, didn't he? Hence the change.

      I think we have the quality to play like how we did vs Southampton first half on a regular basis and dominate, even vs strong teams I'd rather see us take more risks tbh.
      Swab
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #502: Oct 04, 2018 03:59:27 pm
      Second half of last season was more, if one full back goes, the other stays back a bit, right? But it's different this season and very noticable.

      The only time I don't think I saw it happen was vs Southampton in the first half (think I will re-watch that half later), and I thought we killed it, but Klopp didn't seem to like what he saw from a defensive standpoint, didn't he? Hence the change.

      I think we have the quality to play like how we did vs Southampton first half on a regular basis and dominate, even vs strong teams I'd rather see us take more risks tbh.

      I think this is indicative of an evolving system, and also of the opponent.

      We have a basic pattern of positions and spaces we want to attack/defend, and everything else works within them.

      If we want teams to attack a particular flank when we're defending for instance, we will use a pattern of positions and spaces to encourage them down that flank, often using a flat (not staggered) midfield 3 diagonally, to push them to that side.
      It works well when we encourage teams to attack TAA's side.
      Oppositions often see a young player as a weak link and target them, not noticing that's exactly what Klopp wants them to do, which is why we so often see Salah stay high on that side with 2 of the 3 midfielders sliding over to not only help TAA, but also to regain possession in an aggressive defensive press, so that we can release Salah.

      When we attack, our basic pattern is as I've described previously, but because we use positions and space rather than a rigid "traditional" formation, it gives us fluidity that is difficult to defend against if the opposition are trying to pick up players that are constantly changing/swapping round (this is another function of the midfield, and Firmino).
      When the opposition deploys a strictly zonal system, it makes life more difficult, and what we rely on are opposition errors, and it only takes a small mistake of a player leaving his zone, or not being in sync with his teammates to let us in.

      For as long as Klopp is here, we'll see different versions of the same basic systems; tweaks if you like, but important ones, depending on the opposition.

      lfc across the water
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #503: Oct 04, 2018 05:03:54 pm
      Villarreal away, April 2016.

      This game was like that one, awful. Nobody will care about it though, if we beat them at home to make the next round.

      All the other EPL sides have lost a European Cup group game so far, except the mancs. And nobody wants to be in their shoes atm.

      We go again.
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #504: Oct 04, 2018 09:08:12 pm
      Just took this little bit out of your post. It's something that annoys me to no end and I've given up trying to explain it. Our midfielders' main job is not to create. We essentially have FIVE creative players on the pitch: two full backs and the front three. One of the more advanced midfielders will also play a more offensive role. Surely that should be enough? The other two are one behind the ball and one level with the ball to protect our defense, defend the space and cut off passing lanes into the opposition forwards.

      Modric,Iniesta,Fabregas. Kross, Pobga, David Silva,Xabi Alonso All creative midfielders and all the teams they have played for have won trophies in the last ten season or so. Real, Barca,Chelsea, United, City, when saw he last time that LFC played with a creative midfield...? We won the CL with Alonso and a FA Cup, since then F**k all besides a League which we had to win on penalties...

      Teams with out the struggle
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Napoli 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #505: Oct 04, 2018 09:10:24 pm
      What Swab posted I have noticed more frequent this season where our midfielders (even Keita) have been dropping in deeper to cover our full backs when they are pushed up. But don't you feel that link between midfield and attack is missing when we see the Gini, Milner and Hendo trio? Don't you think having a more dynamic creative player would add more dominance? Yes, we would be slightly more vulnerable out of possession, but it's all about getting that balance right, right?

      You are spot on

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