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      LFC Reds Poll

      Q. LFC Man of the Match v Cardiff?

       Alisson
      0 (0%)
      Trent Alexander-Arnold
      0 (0%)
      Dejan Lovren
      0 (0%)
      Virgil van Dijk
      1 (0.9%)
      Alberto Moreno
      0 (0%)
      Adam Lallana
      0 (0%)
       Fabinho
      7 (6.2%)
      Georginio Wijnaldum
      6 (5.3%)
      Sadio Mane
      24 (21.2%)
      Mohammed Salah
      65 (57.5%)
      Roberto Firmino
      0 (0%)
      Xherdan Shaqiri
      10 (8.8%)
      James Milner
      0 (0%)

      Total Members Voted: 113

      Voting closed: Oct 31, 2018 03:51:17 pm

      Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion

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      Swab
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #390: Oct 28, 2018 01:12:56 pm
      It's simple really.

      Against teams that we know are going to sit deep with massed ranks we play 6 attacking players.
      Basically 4 forwards and 2 full backs, with less cover behind the fullbacks and trying to compress the pitch into the opponents half while also stretching the game.

      Against teams that are going to attack us and play a more open game (the "better" teams if you will) we play 3 forwards and use 2 CM to cover behind the fullbacks with 1 spare in the middle, in what people insist on calling the "holding" or "DM" role.

      It's a simple tweak of our basic 433 system, but we attack the centre space more using the extra attacker, which in turn gives the FB's out wide a bit of extra space to work in.
      When the defending team has 2 banks close together, 1 of the CM will support either the attacking flank or the attacking centre.

      Once again, it's not about the formation, it's about the space we attack, and how we go about it.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #391: Oct 28, 2018 02:04:56 pm
      It's simple really.

      Against teams that we know are going to sit deep with massed ranks we play 6 attacking players.
      Basically 4 forwards and 2 full backs, with less cover behind the fullbacks and trying to compress the pitch into the opponents half while also stretching the game.

      Against teams that are going to attack us and play a more open game (the "better" teams if you will) we play 3 forwards and use 2 CM to cover behind the fullbacks with 1 spare in the middle, in what people insist on calling the "holding" or "DM" role.

      It's a simple tweak of our basic 433 system, but we attack the centre space more using the extra attacker, which in turn gives the FB's out wide a bit of extra space to work in.
      When the defending team has 2 banks close together, 1 of the CM will support either the attacking flank or the attacking centre.

      Once again, it's not about the formation, it's about the space we attack, and how we go about it.
      I get what you are saying, but right now I don't trust Lallana in that CM role. Keita, Milner and Gini are probably the go to for that, but judging by Moreno yesterday, there's a possibility Milner might also need to be Robertson's backup, so with Ox out it leaves us a little short on the centre. There might be times when a choice between Lallana and Shaqiri is necessary. Judging by people's reactions they would go Lallana.. but I'm not sure I would. I understand the tactical point you made though. If Lallana can return to his best I might think differently, in the past he only seems to be at his best for short times before getting injured and it's like a cycle.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #392: Oct 28, 2018 02:31:04 pm
      Back on topic...

      Having watched the match again this morning, I must say, Fabinho and Wijnaldum were yet again consistently exceptional for 90 mins! (surprised they didn't get much votes!) They absolutely bossed the middle, breaking up play, shifting the ball quick, always available for passes, initiating attacks etc etc. Was such a joy to watch our midfield last 2 games. And before you fuckers say it was vs easy opponents, I don't recall us dominating the middle last few seasons (even during Rodgers' era) like how Wijnaldum and Fabinho did vs lesser opponents.

      As for our attack, they only came to prominence when Shaq came on around 65th min, but before that, I didn't think we were very threatening or decisive enough. And Firmino.... I didn't think he played as bad as I initially thought, his off the ball work was superb and outweighed his negatives on the ball.
      German_Panzer
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #393: Oct 28, 2018 02:40:05 pm
      Really weird game, we dominated the vast majority of that game but didn't quite click until the last few minutes.

      Because they opened up after their goal. We are deadly if our opponent tries to play with us and offers spaces. We have difficulties if they park the bus. That's the main difference to City and therefore they are the title favourites.

      Quote
      I'm still slightly confused by the goal we conceded, obviously poor from Moreno but I'm not sure if it was also a bit poor from Allison but then he was probably half asleep at that point as he had had sod all to do.

      Alisson wasn't guilty. The ball was slightly deflected if I remember it correctly.

      Quote
      Conclusions are that Moreno is still sh*t,

      A bit harsh. Alberto did not get any game time so far, no chance to settle in. Under these circumstances he did alright.

      Quote
      I prefer Gomez to Vvd

      Me too and I can tell u exactly why: Lovren plays a bit too aggressive and creates more danger of fouls and penalties while Gomez defends "gentler", but as efficient as Lovren.

      Quote
      prefer Shaq to Lallana

      Yes. I wanna see Shaq feature for us bigtime, I think he can be a difference maker if we trust him and give him minutes to develop. And if he isn't then we can go to the market, because we need a new Coutinho if we wanna challenge City for real (or maybe Ox could be that man?).

      waltonl4
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #394: Oct 28, 2018 02:42:41 pm
      Moreno got his usual stick but I thought he did quite well considering his lack of game time.  Its going to cause a lot of arguments on here when Jürgen has a fully fit squad to pick from.
      I thought again yesterday we showed real belief and when they scored we found that extra gear that has been missing in so many of our teams over the last few decades its what makes Champions. Seeing Jürgen so happy is a treat in itself
      Swab
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #395: Oct 28, 2018 02:42:49 pm
      Back on topic...

      Having watched the match again this morning, I must say, Fabinho and Wijnaldum were yet again consistently exceptional for 90 mins! (surprised they didn't get much votes!) They absolutely bossed the middle, breaking up play, shifting the ball quick, always available for passes, initiating attacks etc etc. Was such a joy to watch our midfield last 2 games. And before you fuckers say it was vs easy opponents, I don't recall us dominating the middle last few seasons (even during Rodgers' era) like how Wijnaldum and Fabinho did vs lesser opponents.

      As for our attack, they only came to prominence when Shaq came on around 65th min, but before that, I didn't think we were very threatening or decisive enough. And Firmino.... I didn't think he played as bad as I initially thought, his off the ball work was superb and outweighed his negatives on the ball.

      Cardiff were so passive that at times Fabinho and Wijnaldum had all the time in the world.
      They sat back so deep that both midfielders were able to push right up almost to the edge of their box at times.

      Trying to shoehorn in that they were anything but terrified and extremely deep is a bit disingenuous.

      They could have challenged us more, they could have pressed us more, but they didn't, because Colin W**ker is somewhat of a pragmatist who went for damage limitation.
      That's the reality of it.
      We hardly had to deal with any runners through the centre, no press, little or no aggression.
      With the players they have, Cardiff could have done a lot more, but the way they set up and played was "we know we're going to lose, but we'll try not to concede too many".

      Fabinho and Wijnaldum will both face stern tests this season, as will our other midfielders.
      This wasn't one of them though.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #396: Oct 28, 2018 02:57:52 pm
      Cardiff were so passive that at times Fabinho and Wijnaldum had all the time in the world.
      They sat back so deep that both midfielders were able to push right up almost to the edge of their box at times.

      Trying to shoehorn in that they were anything but terrified and extremely deep is a bit disingenuous.

      They could have challenged us more, they could have pressed us more, but they didn't, because Colin W**ker is somewhat of a pragmatist who went for damage limitation.
      That's the reality of it.
      We hardly had to deal with any runners through the centre, no press, little or no aggression.
      With the players they have, Cardiff could have done a lot more, but the way they set up and played was "we know we're going to lose, but we'll try not to concede too many".

      Fabinho and Wijnaldum will both face stern tests this season, as will our other midfielders.
      This wasn't one of them though.

      It was more the manner of how our midfielders had control of the match, how they used the ball too, something I haven't seen for a while.

      There seems to be a significant difference in our approach play with this setup and having more technical players in the middle , and it's something I really do like.
      Swab
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #397: Oct 28, 2018 03:01:57 pm
      It was more the manner of how our midfielders had control of the match, how they used the ball too, something I haven't seen for a while.

      There seems to be a significant difference in our approach play with this setup and having more technical players in the middle , and it's something I really do like.

      The difference here is how we see it.
      You see it as our midfielders controlling the middle.
      I see it as Cardiff ceding the middle and not pressuring our players to any extent.
      Given that amount of time and space, I'd expect any of our midfielders to dominate.
      Same as Red Star.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #398: Oct 28, 2018 03:14:38 pm
      The difference here is how we see it.
      You see it as our midfielders controlling the middle.
      I see it as Cardiff ceding the middle and not pressuring our players to any extent.
      Given that amount of time and space, I'd expect any of our midfielders to dominate.
      Same as Red Star.

      I agree it wasn't a difficult battle in the middle, and Cardiff sitting off allowed our midfielders to control the middle, but the manner in how Wijnaldum and Fabinho did it was something I haven't seen in years.

      I felt our passing was more fluid than ever, our source of creativity wasn't mainly our full backs, we were initiating attacks a lot via our midfielders and looking between the lines etc.
      Swab
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #399: Oct 28, 2018 03:22:52 pm
      I agree it wasn't a difficult battle in the middle, and Cardiff sitting off allowed our midfielders to control the middle, but the manner in how Wijnaldum and Fabinho did it was something I haven't seen in years.

      I felt our passing was more fluid than ever, our source of creativity wasn't mainly our full backs, we were initiating attacks a lot via our midfielders and looking between the lines etc.

      There was no battle mate, that's the whole point I'm making.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #400: Oct 28, 2018 04:15:15 pm
      There was no battle mate, that's the whole point I'm making.

      Whether it was or wasn't a battle, my point was more the approach, the manner of how our midfielders in the last 2 games have controlled the game/midfield.

      But is that down to the formation/setup? Would we see Hendo and Milner/Wijnaldum in the double pivot as controlling as what we have seen in the last 2 games? I personally don't think we would.

      Anyway, it's nice to see we have a second option for midfield rather than the one where it's more industrial.
      Swab
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #401: Oct 28, 2018 06:01:08 pm
      Whether it was or wasn't a battle, my point was more the approach, the manner of how our midfielders in the last 2 games have controlled the game/midfield.

      But is that down to the formation/setup? Would we see Hendo and Milner/Wijnaldum in the double pivot as controlling as what we have seen in the last 2 games? I personally don't think we would.

      Anyway, it's nice to see we have a second option for midfield rather than the one where it's more industrial.

      It's a misconception that we are playing a double pivot.
      We're not, we're playing the same system we always have under Klopp, with a couple of tweaks, like Shaqiri playing as an attacking midfielder (in actuality, he's playing as one of 4 forwards, as is Mane, although Klopp describes him as an attacking midfielder).

      What we have is a staggered 3, with the deeper 2 playing as cover for fullbacks pushing forwards, and the further player floating along a specified horizontal zone, also supporting the FB's in attack, as well as coming deeper then trying to break the lines by running.

      We're not playing a 4231 or a double pivot as that implies, just another Klopp variation of 433, that isn't really a 433 except in name.
      I posted an article in the tactics thread which explains all this, but as ever it appears no one bothered to read it, or just dismissed it, which would be a mistake imo.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #402: Oct 28, 2018 10:58:56 pm
      You could say we are a 4-6 team or a 4-1-5...or any 4-2-4. The most successful teams almost always have 4 attackers, one or two of them could be described as attacking midfield players. Flexibility of movement is key. The defending starts when we lose the ball, we press when not in possession. There is no great secret to it. You need attacking flair from your midfield. A midfield of Hendo, Milner & Wijnaldum or similar would do well enough but it would lack that extra bit of flair.

      Shaqiri gives that bit of extra flair. Does he have the edge over Keita or Lallana. I think he does..so far. He takes up attacking position down the right. Salah can play inside off Firmino a lot more. It's a good balance of attack with Shag in there. His goal V Cardiff was very Salah like.

      Against better teams he will have to work harder coming deep to back up TAA. But having the right balance between attack and holding is very important esp in away games against the clubs outside the top 6-8. Amass the points, get the balance wrong and the draws and odd 2-1 defeats litter up the season. Over rotation or overthinking it the way Rafa did is not the best way forward.
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #403: Oct 29, 2018 01:02:10 am
      It's a misconception that we are playing a double pivot.
      We're not, we're playing the same system we always have under Klopp, with a couple of tweaks, like Shaqiri playing as an attacking midfielder (in actuality, he's playing as one of 4 forwards, as is Mane, although Klopp describes him as an attacking midfielder).

      What we have is a staggered 3, with the deeper 2 playing as cover for fullbacks pushing forwards, and the further player floating along a specified horizontal zone, also supporting the FB's in attack, as well as coming deeper then trying to break the lines by running.

      We're not playing a 4231 or a double pivot as that implies, just another Klopp variation of 433, that isn't really a 433 except in name.
      I posted an article in the tactics thread which explains all this, but as ever it appears no one bothered to read it, or just dismissed it, which would be a mistake imo.

      Sorry for the late reply, I was geniunely looking back and trying to understand it from your POV.

      Shaqiri has been playing more the Coutinho role but on the right, where as Firmino more deeper than usual, more a 10 vs Red Star & Cardiff when looking back at the 2 games, and I still believe we have setup using a double pivot in both games with them acting as 2 hub's instead of 1.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua9_tsBP9wE

      https://streamable.com/68n7b

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw4N96NbtEI

      Quote from: Klopp
      "The present for his birthday was not that he was in the line-up, it was that we played his favourite system with a double-six!

      And then you have Klopp say (1:30s in) after the Red Star match that the system would not have worked if our wide players didn't fall back and help..

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Zi6uY9kV8

      ...which is totally different to how it was when we played 433 earlier in the season where our side midfielders would be the main protectors/cover for our full backs when they push up to become the main creative source (as a few mentioned). And even more noticable in the double pivot setup, you would find that we play through the middle a lot more with our full backs not so much the creative source.

      As for the formation part, I feel we abide by the setup and play a 433 or 4231 in name, but like any team in possession, pressing or ascending, we will see our players a bit mixed up in the process, but inevitably, they will return back to the area/position they are designated for that familiarity and structure so we are able to restart the process of rebuilding the play with players in their prefered position or get back in shape to defend.

      So yeah, I do see a differentiation in our 433 over 4231 and how our players play, and despite having that flexibility/freedom that Klopp allows, the players will always play mostly in their position/area they are assigned to for that stability, and heat maps that have been posted throughout will show that.

      Anyway, that is how I see it, whether I am wrong or not, I don't know, sorry for not fully understanding how you see it, and maybe the way you understand it is right, but I just can't grasp it :(
      « Last Edit: Oct 29, 2018 01:16:02 am by PurpleMonkey »
      AussieRed
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #404: Oct 29, 2018 08:13:39 am
      Get the f**k in another 3 points. Well done lads.

      That seemed way too easy for all but 10 minutes, was more like a training drill.

      Shout outs going to Mo who was fantastic all match and in the end Sadio, with 2 sublime goals.

      Must say though, that I was gutted when we conceded.

      Couldn't believe my eyes, when that ball trickled in.

      I actually felt dirty when we conceded. 8 months of Home games in the league and not one conceded till Moreno had his usual brain fade.

      VVD, Robbo, Gomez, Alisson, Lovren and TAA must have been gutted when it went in. They have done a wonderful job for so long. Now they have to start it all over again, which could be a good thing for us. Make them more determined then ever to keep more clean sheets.
      LondonRed83
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #405: Oct 29, 2018 08:24:45 am
      Cardiff - lets be honest, they’re a sh*te team.

      Can’t wait to play arsenal - should be a good game. They have fire power now however if they come for Liverpool surely a good break will see us score.

      heimdall
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #406: Oct 29, 2018 10:54:58 am
      Cardiff - lets be honest, they’re a sh*te team.

      Can’t wait to play arsenal - should be a good game. They have fire power now however if they come for Liverpool surely a good break will see us score.



      Yeah that could be an interesting game but as good as Arsenal are going forwards, and at the moment they are v good, they are still shaky at the back so on balance we should win this, but Emirates is always a bit tricky.
      skamp
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #407: Oct 29, 2018 11:08:16 am
      It's a well formed opinion so I +1 that, I have seen Lallana get stuck in and Keita is a very big guy,
      "Keita is a very big guy".  Have you actually seen him?  He's around 5' 8" and 10 stone!  In what world is that a very big guy??  Knotty Ash???!!
      Swab
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #408: Oct 29, 2018 11:59:24 am
      Sorry for the late reply, I was geniunely looking back and trying to understand it from your POV.

      Shaqiri has been playing more the Coutinho role but on the right, where as Firmino more deeper than usual, more a 10 vs Red Star & Cardiff when looking back at the 2 games, and I still believe we have setup using a double pivot in both games with them acting as 2 hub's instead of 1.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua9_tsBP9wE

      https://streamable.com/68n7b

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw4N96NbtEI

      And then you have Klopp say (1:30s in) after the Red Star match that the system would not have worked if our wide players didn't fall back and help..

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Zi6uY9kV8

      ...which is totally different to how it was when we played 433 earlier in the season where our side midfielders would be the main protectors/cover for our full backs when they push up to become the main creative source (as a few mentioned). And even more noticable in the double pivot setup, you would find that we play through the middle a lot more with our full backs not so much the creative source.

      As for the formation part, I feel we abide by the setup and play a 433 or 4231 in name, but like any team in possession, pressing or ascending, we will see our players a bit mixed up in the process, but inevitably, they will return back to the area/position they are designated for that familiarity and structure so we are able to restart the process of rebuilding the play with players in their prefered position or get back in shape to defend.

      So yeah, I do see a differentiation in our 433 over 4231 and how our players play, and despite having that flexibility/freedom that Klopp allows, the players will always play mostly in their position/area they are assigned to for that stability, and heat maps that have been posted throughout will show that.

      Anyway, that is how I see it, whether I am wrong or not, I don't know, sorry for not fully understanding how you see it, and maybe the way you understand it is right, but I just can't grasp it :(

      A couple of points mate.
      Players are not assigned to a position in the sense that you mean.
      Take a look back at Klopp's appearance on SSN where he spoke about positions; a player who finds himself in a particular position assumes the responsibilities of that position. This is why I say we don't play a double pivot, and that we always play a variation of 433.

      You may have noticed that I don't really go a lot for positions and formations these days, and talk more about tactics and space.
      The reason for this is what someone told me a couple of years ago, which to paraphrase is "amateurs talk about formations, pro's talk about space".
      I've been trying to learn this stuff to help me understand the game better, and as I've read more, I've moved away from looking at where players are (formation), and more towards what they can exploit in the sense of space.

      If you have a look at the article I posted in the tactics thread, you'll see what I mean.
      Even if you don't come to the same conclusions as me, it's a very useful piece to help understand the game in a coaching context, and how managers like Klopp view the game.

      Edit; I went and got it, to post it here.
      It's a good starting point and if you google, you can find plenty more of the same. Perceptions vary, but the basics stay the same.
      https://spielverlagerung.com/2014/11/26/juego-de-posicion-a-short-explanation/

      So, under Klopp we use similar "structured space" with the exception that when a player finds themselves in a particular space, they assume the responsibilities for the role that space dictates.
      I think that this is why Klopp speaks so often of a player who is tactically and technically good. It's not always about football technical, but about tactics technical, if that makes sense.
      « Last Edit: Oct 29, 2018 12:06:18 pm by Swab »
      ozi_wozzy
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #409: Oct 29, 2018 12:54:58 pm
      Back on topic...

      Having watched the match again this morning, I must say, Fabinho and Wijnaldum were yet again consistently exceptional for 90 mins! (surprised they didn't get much votes!) They absolutely bossed the middle, breaking up play, shifting the ball quick, always available for passes, initiating attacks etc etc. Was such a joy to watch our midfield last 2 games. And before you fuckers say it was vs easy opponents, I don't recall us dominating the middle last few seasons (even during Rodgers' era) like how Wijnaldum and Fabinho did vs lesser opponents.

      As for our attack, they only came to prominence when Shaq came on around 65th min, but before that, I didn't think we were very threatening or decisive enough. And Firmino.... I didn't think he played as bad as I initially thought, his off the ball work was superb and outweighed his negatives on the ball.

      Generally agree with this mate, especially Fab slotting in as though he's been playing with the team for a lot longer. My only criticism was that he gave the ball away with sloppy passes a few times (and he wasn't the only one), completely unnecessarily, and a tougher opposition may made us pay for it. I'll put it down to teething issues though, maybe he and the team mates getting to know each other.

      Shaq is playing himself into regular starting 11 in my opinion. Direct, creates loads of space with his movement, really good slick passing and took his goal like a seasoned forward.

      Liking the genuine high caliber options in midfield. Hendo, Keita and Milner added to Lallana getting back to fitness and Ox to come back - great headache for Klopp.

      Moreno however should not be trusted to play against any top sides. Gave away the throw needlessly through yet another brain fart that led to their goal. Didn't have a bad game, just has a habit of making costly silly mistakes.

      Aside from that, well deserved big win and the scoreline does not flatter us - considering the midfield was completely new, the lads have done exceptionally well. Great work lads.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #410: Oct 29, 2018 03:27:22 pm
      A couple of points mate.
      Players are not assigned to a position in the sense that you mean.
      Take a look back at Klopp's appearance on SSN where he spoke about positions; a player who finds himself in a particular position assumes the responsibilities of that position. This is why I say we don't play a double pivot, and that we always play a variation of 433.

      You may have noticed that I don't really go a lot for positions and formations these days, and talk more about tactics and space.
      The reason for this is what someone told me a couple of years ago, which to paraphrase is "amateurs talk about formations, pro's talk about space".
      I've been trying to learn this stuff to help me understand the game better, and as I've read more, I've moved away from looking at where players are (formation), and more towards what they can exploit in the sense of space.

      If you have a look at the article I posted in the tactics thread, you'll see what I mean.
      Even if you don't come to the same conclusions as me, it's a very useful piece to help understand the game in a coaching context, and how managers like Klopp view the game.

      Edit; I went and got it, to post it here.
      It's a good starting point and if you google, you can find plenty more of the same. Perceptions vary, but the basics stay the same.
      https://spielverlagerung.com/2014/11/26/juego-de-posicion-a-short-explanation/

      So, under Klopp we use similar "structured space" with the exception that when a player finds themselves in a particular space, they assume the responsibilities for the role that space dictates.
      I think that this is why Klopp speaks so often of a player who is tactically and technically good. It's not always about football technical, but about tactics technical, if that makes sense.

      Reading that, it also sheds some light on Jurgens's recruitment policy. I bet along w all the skill requirements, he places more value on footballing brain than many managers do.
      Swab
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #411: Oct 29, 2018 03:44:52 pm
      Reading that, it also sheds some light on Jurgens's recruitment policy. I bet along w all the skill requirements, he places more value on footballing brain than many managers do.

      There's a more in depth piece here, which focus's on Guardiola, but you can clearly see that Klopp uses the same principles, but also adds in his own requirements.
      The key is creating lines of pressure to create numerical superiority, which in turn creates space.
      It was noticeable against Cardiff, that when the ball was wide, both Wijnaldum and Fabinho took up support roles to try and gain numerical superiority, with Shaqiri also helping by attacking the (central) space left by the defenders moving wide to try and snuff out our extra numbers.
      There's lots of other stuff out there as well, about our "geggenpress" etc, but it really comes down to the same thing, which I think the article explains quite well.
      The fascinating part for me regarding intelligent players is when Klopp states that a player who finds himself in a position takes on the responsibility of that position.
      So for instance, Firmino might find himself in an inside right position, midfield, inside left, centre forward, and he needs to immediately adapt and take the responsibility for that "zone".
      I find it all very interesting.

      http://spielverlagerung.com/2014/12/25/juego-de-posicion-under-pep-guardiola/
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #412: Oct 29, 2018 04:10:46 pm
      There's a more in depth piece here, which focus's on Guardiola, but you can clearly see that Klopp uses the same principles, but also adds in his own requirements.
      The key is creating lines of pressure to create numerical superiority, which in turn creates space.
      It was noticeable against Cardiff, that when the ball was wide, both Wijnaldum and Fabinho took up support roles to try and gain numerical superiority, with Shaqiri also helping by attacking the (central) space left by the defenders moving wide to try and snuff out our extra numbers.
      There's lots of other stuff out there as well, about our "geggenpress" etc, but it really comes down to the same thing, which I think the article explains quite well.
      The fascinating part for me regarding intelligent players is when Klopp states that a player who finds himself in a position takes on the responsibility of that position.
      So for instance, Firmino might find himself in an inside right position, midfield, inside left, centre forward, and he needs to immediately adapt and take the responsibility for that "zone".
      I find it all very interesting.

      http://spielverlagerung.com/2014/12/25/juego-de-posicion-under-pep-guardiola/

      Thanks for sharing the links, I have read them, but the thing is, I see this pattern from a lot of teams. I watch around 9-11 games (mostly the big teams) a week and I don't particular see anything unique , I just assumed it's normal? :(

      I think a lot of managers are allowing their players more flexibility (some more so than others) since Pep arrived and took Barca to different level.

      Reading that, it also sheds some light on Jurgens's recruitment policy. I bet along w all the skill requirements, he places more value on footballing brain than many managers do.

      But isn't that pretty much the same for all managers at top clubs? Fortunately for us, we have the money and pulling power to recruit the very best.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #413: Oct 29, 2018 05:30:32 pm
      Thanks for sharing the links, I have read them, but the thing is, I see this pattern from a lot of teams. I watch around 9-11 games (mostly the big teams) a week and I don't particular see anything unique , I just assumed it's normal? :(

      I think a lot of managers are allowing their players more flexibility (some more so than others) since Pep arrived and took Barca to different level.

      But isn't that pretty much the same for all managers at top clubs? Fortunately for us, we have the money and pulling power to recruit the very best.

      While everyone would say they value that, I  see a lot of poor decision-making, including from teams who spend good money on transfers. Think Hodgson, Roy as a counter-example. ☺️
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #414: Oct 29, 2018 06:18:38 pm
      While everyone would say they value that, I  see a lot of poor decision-making, including from teams who spend good money on transfers. Think Hodgson, Roy as a counter-example. ☺️

      I guess some have a keener eye than others.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #415: Oct 29, 2018 06:18:41 pm
      There's a more in depth piece here, which focus's on Guardiola, but you can clearly see that Klopp uses the same principles, but also adds in his own requirements.
      The key is creating lines of pressure to create numerical superiority, which in turn creates space.
      It was noticeable against Cardiff, that when the ball was wide, both Wijnaldum and Fabinho took up support roles to try and gain numerical superiority, with Shaqiri also helping by attacking the (central) space left by the defenders moving wide to try and snuff out our extra numbers.
      There's lots of other stuff out there as well, about our "geggenpress" etc, but it really comes down to the same thing, which I think the article explains quite well.
      The fascinating part for me regarding intelligent players is when Klopp states that a player who finds himself in a position takes on the responsibility of that position.
      So for instance, Firmino might find himself in an inside right position, midfield, inside left, centre forward, and he needs to immediately adapt and take the responsibility for that "zone".
      I find it all very interesting.

      http://spielverlagerung.com/2014/12/25/juego-de-posicion-under-pep-guardiola/

      Phew! That article is not an easy read, but very interesting.  Players ofnours that come to mind on reading about interiores are Bobby (especially), Lallana from 2 seasons ago, and (gets ready to duck), Jordan Henderson  their ability to adapt to the concepts surely has led to their being favored. players who maybe haven't gotten it as well include Christian Benteke, maybe Emre Can and, believe it or not, Phil Coutinho. Not doubting the skill, but the acumen to adapt. This also explains why some of the holdovers have risen in prominence under a new manager rather than him simply discarding players en masse.

      Can't help but wonder if some tweak or another is what led to Buvac leaving.
      Swab
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #416: Oct 29, 2018 06:27:59 pm
      Thanks for sharing the links, I have read them, but the thing is, I see this pattern from a lot of teams. I watch around 9-11 games (mostly the big teams) a week and I don't particular see anything unique , I just assumed it's normal? :(

      I think a lot of managers are allowing their players more flexibility (some more so than others) since Pep arrived and took Barca to different level.

      But isn't that pretty much the same for all managers at top clubs? Fortunately for us, we have the money and pulling power to recruit the very best.

      I think what you are seeing is variations of zonal systems, like the one BR used to play, and in Italian football a combination of fairly rigid zonal systems.

      Some of the big teams play various variations on the basic system, but as pointed out in the articles, unless it is combined with other systems, it's actually quite rigid, as can be seen when man u play.
      In fact I'd argue that maureen has been trying to get this system right for years, but always ends up going back to a rigid 4231.

      It's the variations that are the important part, and this is where a certain type of player is important; they need to be good enough, tactically astute enough to recognise danger/opportunity and aware enough to take advantage of opportunity, and on top of that, highly adaptable to changes in the flow of the game meaning they have to take up a different role.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #417: Oct 29, 2018 08:54:33 pm
      The way Mo links and plays with Shaq could be a big deal for us. It takes a bit of heat off Mo in that Shaq, when he gets high in support he demand attention from defenders. What with Mane coming into form, and Mane being Mane, he won't accept 2nd or 3rd fiddle, so he will get extra motivation from Mo and Shaq ripping it up. Add in Bob popping up along the front line and it becomes a real attacking force.

      But we must have urgency from midfield, get it forward quickly, that is key to this new dynamic with Shaq as part of the attack. Think Klopp has recognised Shaq demands a place.Can't be ignored or benched, he has to play Shaq. He could be the catalyst to a new attacking goal glut.
      racerx34
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #418: Oct 29, 2018 09:20:44 pm
      For me the midfield should be one DM, one central and one attacking within a 433 as below.

                              ↑
                          ATM     ↑
               DM         ↓     CM
                 ↓                     ↓

      You see the ATM starts a bit forward.
      The CM and ATM both should run up and down the field, but the DM only should track back.

      ATM? It's not a bank machine.

      6, 8 & 10 will do.
      It's not anything new that you're suggesting, it's the standard for a 4-2-3-1, which Klopp has played.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: Liverpool 4-1 Cardiff City: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #419: Oct 30, 2018 08:09:33 pm
      Quote from Ribapuru
      I've been saying I rate Shaqiri to be in first xi. Other people have disagreed, now I'm being called a troll and a pr**k for it. Are you guys serious? Just f*ck off will you. Also there was no bickering, just a healthy debate until you and Robby poked your stupid noses in. Do you really think I would have +1 him if we were arguing?

      No need for this, this is what instigated a negative feeling, not the debate about Shaqiri, in which I'm pro Shaqiri.

      We must have won 4-1, lads. Wtf is "pro-Shaqiri"?

      6 months ago, he was staring down the drop zone. Now he's been Kloppered and is playing well with a team top of the league.

      We did what we had to do. It was comfortable enough. If we win next week, we'll have sent another message to City and the rest of the league.

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