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      Q. LFC Man of the Match v Arsenal?

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      Voting closed: Nov 07, 2018 07:22:49 pm

      Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

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      stuey
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #600: Nov 04, 2018 04:57:46 pm
      To be fair on the linemen, the offside rule is a farce! Mane was offside when getting into position just not when scoring. Personally I think the rule needs changing so that if a player runs for the ball in any phase it's offside. Mane needs to time his run better to accommodate for stuff like this. We can bemoan the decision, but there is a stupid system in play here, such complicated rules need VAR.

      Mane was played on side.
      He was not interfering with play.
      No way was he offside.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #601: Nov 04, 2018 05:13:47 pm
      Yeah, the offside rule is too complicated now. It should go back to the old rule that if any attacker is behind the defence when the ball is played behind, then it's offside. They won't do it though, cos they like the fact the current rules create more goals. ( The current rule is one of the reasons the art of defending has declined so much in recent years in my opinion. It's too complicated for defenders to co-ordinate a consistent offside trap.It sows confusion at the back.)

      But it's not Mane's fault. He played to the existing rules, and the goal should have stood.

      I completely agree with both of you but at the same time it's the linesman's job to know the rules, complicated or not, and if he either doesn't, or he misinterprets them then it's the football club that suffers, not him. If I got something so blatantly wrong in my job, at best I'd be looking at a period of re-training, which is precisely what he should face, rather than going on to his next game where he may make the same mistake all over again.

      All that being said, let's not for one moment blame the linesman for yesterday's result. We started slowly, dragged our way into the game with a goal against the run of play, started to turn the screw and wasted opportunities to put the game beyond Arsenal. Only our back five are performing consistently this season (yes I know Trent had an off game yesterday). The rest of the team is misfiring and it's only because of our defence that we're currently second in the table.
      sore monad
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #602: Nov 04, 2018 05:34:40 pm
      Here's the FA's account of the the offside rule -

      http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside

      Quote
      Offside position

      It is not an offence to be in an offside position.

      A player is in an offside position if:
      any part of the head, body or feet is in the opponents’ half (excluding the halfway line) and
      any part of the head, body or feet is nearer to the opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent
      The hands and arms of all players, including the goalkeepers, are not considered.
      A player is not in an offside position if level with the:
      second-last opponent or
      last two opponents
      Offside offence

      A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:
      interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate or
      interfering with an opponent by:
      preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or
      challenging an opponent for the ball or
      clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or
      making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball
      *The first point of contact of the 'play' or 'touch' of the ball should be used

      or
      gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
      rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent
      been deliberately saved by any opponent
      A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage.
      A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).

      In situations where:

      a player moving from, or standing in, an offside position is in the way of an opponent and interferes with the movement of the opponent towards the ball this is an offside offence if it impacts on the ability of the opponent to play or challenge for the ball; if the player moves into the way of an opponent and impedes the opponent's progress (e.g blocks the opponent) the offence should be penalised under Law 12
      a player in an offisde position is moving towards the ball with the intention of playing the ball and is fouled before playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball, the foul is penalised as it has occurred before the offside offence
      an offence is committed against a player in an offside position who is already playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball, the offside offence is penalised as it has occurred before the foul challenge
      No offence

      There is no offside offence if a player receives the ball directly from:
      a goal kick
      a throw-in
      a corner kick

      After reading that, I can no longer work out if Mane was offside or not. Based purely on past experience of the rule being implemented, I don't think he is. Based on reading the FA's rules, it actually sounds like he is. But it is so f**king complicated ( as well as really badly written/formatted) that I basically couldn't make head nor tail of it.

      Any clarifications ( if any of you are maybe solicitors, or are currently negotiating the terms of Brexit) appreciated.
      5timesacharm
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #603: Nov 04, 2018 05:38:08 pm
      Here's the FA's account of the the offside rule -

      http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside

      After reading that, I can no longer work out if Mane was offside or not. Based purely on past experience of the rule being implemented, I don't think he is. Based on reading the FA's rules, it actually sounds like he is. But it is so f**king complicated ( as well as really badly written/formatted) that I basically couldn't make head nor tail of it.

      Any clarifications ( if any of you are maybe solicitors, or are currently negotiating the terms of Brexit) appreciated.

      He wasn't because he made no attempt to play the ball, nor was he blocking the movement of any defender, therefore he is not considered to be interfering with play. It's been confirmed by several former referees.
      sore monad
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #604: Nov 04, 2018 06:09:15 pm
      He wasn't because he made no attempt to play the ball, nor was he blocking the movement of any defender, therefore he is not considered to be interfering with play. It's been confirmed by several former referees.

      Yeah I'm sure that's right. It's just that the statement of the rules is as clear as mud. You'd think they would say something to the effect that once a non-offside player has touched the ball ( Firmino in this case), then the the situation resets and the guy who was previously in an offside position is then judged purely on where he is now. It doesn't say anything about that kind of scenario though. It just says that this player, who was originally in an offside position
      Quote
      is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:
      and then gives a list of stuff including
      Quote
      gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
      rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent

      It doesn't mention what happens if a teammate touches the ball before it gets to him. On the rule as written above it sounds like Mane would be offside, cos he has gained an advantage in being in position to get to the rebound off the post. ( Would he have got to the rebound first if he hadn't been behind the defence earlier? How do we know? He's surely in a better position to get to it than if he started further away, and level with a defender. There needs to be something saying that doesn't matter - if a teammate touches the ball first, it doesn't matter if the other guy has now got an advantage from having previously been offside. But it says nothing about it.) No wonder English officiating is as bad as it is, with the rules being written like that.
      « Last Edit: Nov 04, 2018 06:21:07 pm by sore monad »
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #605: Nov 04, 2018 06:19:41 pm
      Same Buvac without whom we reached the CL final? :f_doh:

      And the same Buvac without whom we have had our best ever start to a Premier League season?
      grooveshark
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #606: Nov 04, 2018 07:30:36 pm
      But I do have a feeling that should Klopp want to, he could bring back the speed and aggression we were used to at the back end of last season.
      As good as this sounds, I do not think that it the cause behind the poor displays.

      When you have a team, there is a culture and philosophy that you build around.

      Pep Guardiola

      Quote
      “People say that ball possession might not be the most important thing but for me, it is the most important thing,” Guardiola said. “It’s the first step and then the second, third and fourth steps can come after. With the ball, you have more possibilities to create something and to concede fewer chances.

      “I have a lot of respect for my players and when they decided to become footballers, they wanted to play with the ball. It’s not only about running. It’s all about having the ball, playing and dealing with the ball. Because we have had the ball, we have scored a lot of goals and haven’t conceded a lot.”

      This was Sarri
      Quote
      “I like it when the team is in control of the match, I like very much the ball possession, I like to play in the other half.”

      ”Ball possession, but at a very high speed. Mental speed, first of all, not only ball possession in my half. Maybe I’ve learned it from a lot of lost matches, I think!”

      This was Emery
      Quote
      “My idea is to be protagonists,” he said. “The history here is a team that love playing with possession and I like that personality. When you don’t have possession, I want a squad that are very, very intensive with the pressing. The two things are important for me to be protagonists – possession of the ball and pressing when you don’t have the ball.”

      This was Klopp
      Quote
      “Gegenpressing is the best playmaker there is. The best moment to win the ball is immediately after your team just lost it. The opponent is still looking for orientation where to pass the ball.”

      This was Jose Mourinho

      Quote
      "What it is, is people who got some idea, some philosophy, and want to create something like 'We build very well from the back, we have a very good ball possession we don't play counter-attack,'" the 52-year-old added.

      "But if you don't play counter-attack then it's because you are stupid. Counter-attack is a fantastic item of football, an ammunition that you have, and when you find your opponent unbalanced you have a fantastic moment to score a goal.

      "So I think people are creating (illusions) and it has influenced public opinion. But football will never change. Football is to win."

      All the teams these men manage go the way they envision the game. When Klopp plays what has been aptly named an industrial midfield, it is because he has them there to press knowing that if the press works, chances will be created. Mourinho gives away possession hoping to counter. He is on record as saying that a team with possession of the ball is in danger......I could try and dig out that interview.

      There is a culture to be cultivated, and it cannot be done if there is mixed messaging on how you want to approach games. You can also see the imprint of how these teams want to play just based on who they buy.

      This season alone, Chelsea went on and got two ball playing midfielders and a ball playing goalkeeper. City added Riyadh Mahrez and are rumored to be after Tanguy Ndombele who is another player that is comfortable on the ball.

      United added another physical player in Fred while Arsenal added mainly players to try and sure up their defence in Torreira, Sokratis and Leno.

      Phillipe Coutinho's output was supposed to be replaced by Naby Keita mainly, while the was the needed addition of Allison together with Shaqiri and Fabinho.

      The additions have been there to try and ensure that there is not a thin squad, and that the team can compete on all fronts, so it would be strange to be playing at half speed. On this game in particular, Klopp in the post match conference stated that he had not been happy with how the pressing was being implemented.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #607: Nov 04, 2018 07:41:14 pm
      Yeah I'm sure that's right. It's just that the statement of the rules is as clear as mud. You'd think they would say something to the effect that once a non-offside player has touched the ball ( Firmino in this case), then the the situation resets and the guy who was previously in an offside position is then judged purely on where he is now. It doesn't say anything about that kind of scenario though. It just says that this player, who was originally in an offside position and then gives a list of stuff including
      It doesn't mention what happens if a teammate touches the ball before it gets to him. On the rule as written above it sounds like Mane would be offside, cos he has gained an advantage in being in position to get to the rebound off the post. ( Would he have got to the rebound first if he hadn't been behind the defence earlier? How do we know? He's surely in a better position to get to it than if he started further away, and level with a defender. There needs to be something saying that doesn't matter - if a teammate touches the ball first, it doesn't matter if the other guy has now got an advantage from having previously been offside. But it says nothing about it.) No wonder English officiating is as bad as it is, with the rules being written like that.
      hate to say this, but judging by FA website it was the right call. It says there in black and white that if a player gets an advantage because it bounces off a crossbar they can be flagged off-side. When looking at the replay, Mane was also  interfering with play because just being there stopped Leno coming off his line earlier. Look on the reverse, if Arsenal scored that and it stood we'd be bemoaning the goal being allowed. Without the rose tinted goggle's on, hitting the post doesn't put Mane onside because it didn't come off a player. Had Mane not been off side earlier, it wouldn't have mattered it came off the post, but relying on the post to play him on-side isn't a thing according to this rules. I would say the grammar is shockingly bad for saying it's FA official website though. Took me a while to decipher that into anything readable. I'll highlight the relevant.

      Offside offence   
      A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is touched or played by a teammate is only penalised for committing an offside offence if, in the opinion of the referee, they become involved in active play by:

      Interfering with play
      "playing or touching the ball passed or touched by a team-mate"[1]
      Interfering with an opponent
      "preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or
      challenging an opponent for the ball or
      clearly attempting to play a ball which is close to them when this action impacts on an opponent or
      making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball"[1]
      Gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has
      "- rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar, match official or an opponent
      - been deliberately saved by any opponent" [1].

      An off-side player doesn't become on-side just because of becoming involved.
      « Last Edit: Nov 04, 2018 07:56:18 pm by Ribapuru »
      waltonl4
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #608: Nov 04, 2018 08:57:03 pm
      If Henderson had been fit yesterday our midfield would have been last years three and the outfield 10 the same as last year.
      I wonder at what point if any will Jürgen look to bring in Kieta and possibly Shaqiri into the starting 11 we look flat to be honest which considering our points tally is a bit of a contradiction.
      We had enough yesterday to win tht game but fair play to Arsenal they never gave up.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #609: Nov 04, 2018 08:58:18 pm
      Quote from Ribapuru
      hate to say this, but judging by FA website it was the right call. It says there in black and white that if a player gets an advantage because it bounces off a crossbar they can be flagged off-side. When looking at the replay, Mane was also  interfering with play because just being there stopped Leno coming off his line earlier. Look on the reverse, if Arsenal scored that and it stood we'd be bemoaning the goal being allowed. Without the rose tinted goggle's on, hitting the post doesn't put Mane onside because it didn't come off a player. Had Mane not been off side earlier, it wouldn't have mattered it came off the post, but relying on the post to play him on-side isn't a thing according to this rules. I would say the grammar is shockingly bad for saying it's FA official website though. Took me a while to decipher that into anything readable.

      And obviously it will take this post to understand what matters.

      The ball hitting the post is irrelevant. The only thing that counts is Mane is behind the ball when Firmino takes his shot. Therefore he is onside and the goal should stand. With VAR, one look at the replay and it is sorted there and then. Unfortunately we're not able to use it, but the issue itself is straight forward enough, and doesn't need links and complicated subtexts to understand.

      That goal counts, and we win 2-1. It doesn't count, and we've dropped 2 points. And knee jerkers have plenty to say about where we will finish.
      AussieRed
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #610: Nov 04, 2018 09:00:55 pm
      Gutted we threw away 2 points, was screaming at Jürgen to get Lovren on, as soon as we went 1-0 up. Take off Bobby and go 5 at the back. Couldn't believe he waited till 87 minutes to then bring on Matip to save the draw!!

      As for TAA, he along with a couple of others had shockers, I kept screaming at him from here in OZ, to keep his position but he really didn't have any help from Gini or Mo so I could understand him getting caught out of position a few times but the thing that really pissed me off about Trent, was that when Lacazette was about to turn and shoot, Trent was standing there flat footed, near the edoe of his box, putting his hand up for offside. Didn't play to the whistle, if he had of, I am sure he would have closed Lazcazette down or at least made it more difficult for him to shoot.

      Ribapuru
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #611: Nov 04, 2018 09:13:55 pm
      I'm not even going to try and understand offside rule anymore. Done with that, it's gotten ridiculous.
      Boston not la
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #612: Nov 04, 2018 09:30:30 pm
      About half a dozen reds from the official lot came into the pub i was in after the game,it's pretty quiet low key kinda atmos they did an awful out of tune version of YNWA and allez allez.Bit embarrasing tbh.
      Norfolk Red
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #613: Nov 05, 2018 09:15:25 am
      I'm not even going to try and understand offside rule anymore. Done with that, it's gotten ridiculous.




      Quite agree Rib, what chance have we all got of understanding the offside rule, if the officials can't get it right.  :mad:


      redindian
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #614: Nov 05, 2018 09:38:37 am
      Gutted we threw away 2 points, was screaming at Jürgen to get Lovren on, as soon as we went 1-0 up. Take off Bobby and go 5 at the back. Couldn't believe he waited till 87 minutes to then bring on Matip to save the draw!!


      Thought Lovren was injured, AR, and not part of the squad. Maybe, he didn't want to throw Matip in the ring given his fitness and lethargy.

      I think we were very unlucky. Arsenal played well. But,  that Firminho dink and that VvD take from Salah's cross deserved to be converted. They were that exquisite. 
      skamp
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #615: Nov 05, 2018 01:31:33 pm
      We can argue about this that and anything.

      At the end of the day incompetence rules again. The luddites who don't want VAR have no place in the game, this game is proof. Should have been a win, and against teams like City, 2 points matter a lot.
      Doesn't quite work like that "should have been a win".  Had that goal stood, the entire match after would have been completely different, a la the Butterfly effect.  We may have won, we may have drawn or we may have lost. 

      That "one-decision cost us the game" over-simplification is just that.
      FL Red
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #616: Nov 05, 2018 05:42:42 pm
      Can't help but feel a touch disappointed in not winning this game, but I think I saw where we now have a run of games where we don't play any of the top 6 and most of the top 6 are going to be battling each other over that same span. Better to get the point in a tough away fixture like Arsenal (especially considering the ref jobbing us on the goal) and stay undefeated with an "easier" stretch coming up. The other teams around us are going to drop points.
      Swab
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #617: Nov 05, 2018 05:59:43 pm
      Can't help but feel a touch disappointed in not winning this game, but I think I saw where we now have a run of games where we don't play any of the top 6 and most of the top 6 are going to be battling each other over that same span. Better to get the point in a tough away fixture like Arsenal (especially considering the ref jobbing us on the goal) and stay undefeated with an "easier" stretch coming up. The other teams around us are going to drop points.

      If someone had offered me 27 points from 11 games, with the run of fixtures we've had, I'd have snatched it up.

      In that context, I don't feel disappointed, but I agree it feels a bit like 2 points dropped.
      Magillionare
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #618: Nov 05, 2018 07:39:25 pm
      Doesn't quite work like that "should have been a win".  Had that goal stood, the entire match after would have been completely different, a la the Butterfly effect.  We may have won, we may have drawn or we may have lost. 

      That "one-decision cost us the game" over-simplification is just that.

      It’s not a small decision though. It’s unacceptable we didn’t get that goal.
      GERNS
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #619: Nov 05, 2018 09:08:33 pm
      It doesn’t matter a jot weather we went on to win 5:0 or lose 5:1 the point is, we were deducted a good goal through incompetence, which we are not even officially allowed to question, without being punished further.
      The perpetrator however, will continue to officiate in the highest league in the land, with no questions asked.
      Totally unacceptable in my book.
      When you are that far below the required standard in any other employment there are consequences to face, and rightly so.
      lreland
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #620: Nov 06, 2018 02:14:34 am
      We not play well in any premier league games so far,if was not for vvd or back line we be out top4 by now, can't keep going in games hope our back line save us if vvd or Robertson even both get injury you need midfield and forwards be get more goals help back line out
      skamp
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #621: Nov 06, 2018 10:29:07 am
      It’s not a small decision though. It’s unacceptable we didn’t get that goal.
      Where did I say it was a small decision?  The point is, you're assuming that had the goal been given at that point, we'd have won 2-1 as everything else would have panned out identically, which is wrong.
      Scotia
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #622: Nov 06, 2018 10:44:16 am
      Where did I say it was a small decision?  The point is, you're assuming that had the goal been given at that point, we'd have won 2-1 as everything else would have panned out identically, which is wrong.

      Actually - in material / statistical terms it’s unknown, not wrong.

      What IS known is that we should’ve been 1-0 long before we were.
      skamp
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #623: Nov 06, 2018 11:53:30 am
      Actually - in material / statistical terms it’s unknown, not wrong.

      What IS known is that we should’ve been 1-0 long before we were.
      Technically, it is wrong as if the goal had stood, Arsenal would have kicked off at the halfway line.  As it was, they took the free kick from the offside position, so the the passages of play that followed were completely different.  ;D
      Scotia
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #624: Nov 06, 2018 11:56:56 am
      Technically, it is wrong as if the goal had stood, Arsenal would have kicked off at the halfway line.  As it was, they took the free kick from the offside position, so the the passages of play that followed were completely different.  ;D
      Not at all. It isn’t wrong  statistically because you don’t know anything would have changed beyond a re-start at halfway and not the 6 yard box.

      The rest is speculation / butterfly effect......

      Anyways you made your point and some will agree and some won’t.
      heimdall
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #625: Nov 06, 2018 12:00:45 pm
      Not at all. It isn’t wrong  statistically because you don’t know anything would have changed beyond a re-start at halfway and not the 6 yard box.

      The rest is speculation / butterfly effect......

      Anyways you made your point and some will agree and some won’t.

      If Mane's goal had stood they would have had more time and intent to come at us, that might have created more opportunities for us or more for them( I think more for them as they dominated most of the match anyway), its impossible to say but to state categorically that that goal was the turning point in the match is nonsense from a statistical or any other point.
      Scotia
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #626: Nov 06, 2018 12:04:52 pm
      If Mane's goal had stood they would have had more time and intent to come at us, that might have created more opportunities for us or more for them( I think more for them as they dominated most of the match anyway), its impossible to say but to state categorically that that goal was the turning point in the match is nonsense from a statistical or any other point.

      It’s called debate Heimy - it was certainly influential - who knows how significant ultimately but I completely understand and share the frustration.
      heimdall
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #627: Nov 06, 2018 12:08:44 pm
      It’s called debate Heimy - it was certainly influential - who knows how significant ultimately but I completely understand and share the frustration.

      Always happy with debate, but statistics has no part in guess work and to predict the result if Mane's goal had stood is guess work, therefore it cannot be defined as a defining moment in the game. If Mane's goal had been disallowed in the 92nd minutes then you could say it was decisive but not so early in a very competitive match.
      Scotia
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #628: Nov 06, 2018 12:31:45 pm
      Always happy with debate, but statistics has no part in guess work and to predict the result if Mane's goal had stood is guess work, therefore it cannot be defined as a defining moment in the game. If Mane's goal had been disallowed in the 92nd minutes then you could say it was decisive but not so early in a very competitive match.

      I didn’t ;)
      heimdall
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      Re: Arsenal 1-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #629: Nov 06, 2018 02:08:04 pm

      fair enough, we agree then :-)

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