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      Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

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      waltonl4
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #360: Nov 25, 2018 09:12:14 pm
      if people don't quote the idiot I don't have to read his posts that bring me out in a rash. What is the point of ignoring someone only to see the crap they post just when you least expect it.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #361: Nov 25, 2018 11:59:23 pm
      I was worried about this one beforehand, even before the break. Every banana skin cop out for not winning was available; first game after the break, tiredness, cold, tough place to go to, busparkers, ref, etc. Thankfully, we only slipped on the last one when the game was already in the bag, of which more anon.

      With West Ham unable to put up any resistance to City, the signs looked ominous for us at half time, and if you had offered me 3-0 after an hour, I would have asked "how?" We were struggling to create chances, let alone break them down, and more posters were queueing up to say things about us after the game, than just German Panzer. Then the goal finally came, they had to come out and the floodgates opened up. The 3-0 scoreline looks like we won the easy way, but it was anything but until we went in front.

      It looked like it would get even more difficult when they had a penalty appeal at 0-0. With Moss in charge, I expected him to give it, as he's one of the worst refs in the league, but it was the correct decision.

      I'm always wanting Hendo to lead by example, take the game by the scruff of the neck and keep a cool head, after all that's what captains do on days like this, in games like that. I don't think I called for the shoving of opponents in their back in their own half. Moss may be keen to dish out red cards to Liverpool players, but Hendo gave him little option this time. It's our first red card since City away last year in the league. Ref? You guessed it.

      Other than that, 3 goals and 3 points to give us 33 in total, and another tricky away game safely negotiated. There's only one more trip to London left, away to Fulham.

      One other thing though. We've scored just 3 times in the league, and 5 goals overall, before half time in the past two months. We used to be known for flying out of the blocks and getting games won by half time. Now we're usually having to wait a bit longer, but while we're still winning, I suppose it's better late than never.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #362: Nov 26, 2018 03:59:14 am
      It wasn't a WUM attempt. It was a response to you calling people "numpties" and discrediting pundits on MOTD just to suit your argument. You can't debate, with you it's just insults and discredit. When all fails you start quoting Klopp and when what Klopp days doesn't fit you say managers aren't always honest. At the end of the day, you don't even attempt to understand other users opinions and never even think to consider they have a point worth debating. How many times have you ever conceded that another forum member was right and you had an altered perspective? I'm guessing it's zero and you call people "numpties" or "wum". Regarding Phillip Neville, I've no idea what he said but I'd imagine he was more accurate than you, as would I say the person you were insulting would be. There's only so long you can insult and not debate a point before people assume you don't know what you're talking about.

      It's not being a WUM when I said Henderson had the worst game of his season so far, Squawka, Mirror and numerous other sites rated him below 6/10 for the first time this season. What will you do to discredit this? Say Mirror has an agenda against Henderson?

      www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/liverpool-player-ratings-vs-watford-13638247.amp


      Sent off, two daft bookings. Failed to make incisive contributions from the middle of the pitch.


      So will you

      A) Agree
      B) Debate, provide counter argument with evidence
      C) Attempt to discredit and call me names
      « Last Edit: Nov 26, 2018 04:13:57 am by Ribapuru »
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #363: Nov 26, 2018 04:53:03 am
      FFS, the other day we had a numpty holding up Phil F***ing Neville as a coaching and formation guru, with his Uefa B license, and now this, a snapshot with absolutely no context being used as a stick to beat the skipper with.

      Nice of you to call me a numpty and making me reply and going off topic.

      You really are a bit of a c**t, aren't you? I have disagreed with many on here, and you are the first on the forums that resorts to name calling towards me. Seriously, how old are you? (hope you are still a teen, at least you would have an excuse).

      But yeah, Klopp is better qualified and knows more which makes us all wrong when we disagree or criticise (according to you), however, even though P.Neville is better qualified and knows more, he is wrong and you are right, right? ;)

      Ignore Swab posting trash like this. Had those pundits been complementing Henderson he'd be pointing it out, but if it's criticism it's insults and discrediting.


      Additionally, I saw what a user posted about Philip Neville. Swab, like always is twisting and exaggerating that.

      He is an absolute c**t, isn't he? Had some PM's warning me about him, how he gets angry easily and can't let things go when being challenged, it's either agree with him or you get attacked by him.

      And thanks, I have noticed reading back some of his posts, he does go off the mark a lot when he doesn't agree with an opinion, which usually leads to insults, lies and exaggerations. Definitely SJW/NPC tendencies going on, scary stuff!!!!
      « Last Edit: Nov 26, 2018 05:21:17 am by PurpleMonkey »
      PurpleMonkey
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #364: Nov 26, 2018 05:15:50 am
      It wasn't a WUM attempt. It was a response to you calling people "numpties" and discrediting pundits on MOTD just to suit your argument. You can't debate, with you it's just insults and discredit. When all fails you start quoting Klopp and when what Klopp days doesn't fit you say managers aren't always honest. At the end of the day, you don't even attempt to understand other users opinions and never even think to consider they have a point worth debating. How many times have you ever conceded that another forum member was right and you had an altered perspective? I'm guessing it's zero and you call people "numpties" or "wum". Regarding Phillip Neville, I've no idea what he said but I'd imagine he was more accurate than you, as would I say the person you were insulting would be. There's only so long you can insult and not debate a point before people assume you don't know what you're talking about.

      Majority of the time, I disagree with P.Neville, Owen, Savage, Hartson etc and consider them muppets! But I am sure we have all agreed with these muppets from time to time, right? There is no disputing they are better qualified with access to more data than us. However, no matter how qualified or better equipped they are, they still have a differing opinion, just like how it is with Klopp, his opinion is not always right (unless you have Swab's logic!) and usually, we fan's would probably get something right over him!!

      As for what the legendary P.Neville said, he explained how our system changes when using a double pivot oppose to a 3 man midfield with examples, and even watching the Watford match, you can clearly see (yet again) 4231 differs to 433.
      « Last Edit: Nov 26, 2018 05:20:04 am by PurpleMonkey »
      Billo
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #365: Nov 26, 2018 05:17:53 am
      I like cake 🎂
      JD
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #366: Nov 26, 2018 11:12:10 am
      Did we ever get to the bottom of whether it should or shouldn't have been a penalty for Watford? 

      I know Will Hughes made the most of it - but did Robbo actually catch him or not?
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #367: Nov 26, 2018 11:16:11 am
      With Keita and Shaqiri being runners and Gini our only decent true CM right now,  I think your talking out where the sun doesn't shine. Ox can play multiple roles, but he's publicly said he wants to play CM and we need him there. We don't know Shaqiris role today yet either, he might be ATM in a 3 or #10 ahead of a double pivot. That's yet to be seen.

      KateMKD_Red
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #368: Nov 26, 2018 11:33:21 am
      Scotia
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #369: Nov 26, 2018 12:22:16 pm
      Did we ever get to the bottom of whether it should or shouldn't have been a penalty for Watford? 

      I know Will Hughes made the most of it - but did Robbo actually catch him or not?

      It looked to me like he’d pulled out of challenge just in time.....but I do think it’s work remembering he is allowed to make contact without it being a penalty too......

      It does strike me that it’s become so sanitised and indeed scrutinised that gets forgotten.

      Any contact was utterly minimal and did not result in the fall we saw - so (in my humble....) should 100% have been a yellow.

      I also think Jürgen will have a word and say - harry them in there but don’t swing a leg unless you’re in front.
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #370: Nov 26, 2018 12:32:15 pm
      Nice of you to call me a numpty and making me reply and going off topic.

      You really are a bit of a c**t, aren't you? I have disagreed with many on here, and you are the first on the forums that resorts to name calling towards me. Seriously, how old are you? (hope you are still a teen, at least you would have an excuse).

      But yeah, Klopp is better qualified and knows more which makes us all wrong when we disagree or criticise (according to you), however, even though P.Neville is better qualified and knows more, he is wrong and you are right, right? ;)

      He is an absolute c**t, isn't he? Had some PM's warning me about him, how he gets angry easily and can't let things go when being challenged, it's either agree with him or you get attacked by him.

      And thanks, I have noticed reading back some of his posts, he does go off the mark a lot when he doesn't agree with an opinion, which usually leads to insults, lies and exaggerations. Definitely SJW/NPC tendencies going on, scary stuff!!!!

      LOL
      It wasn't personal, as I really couldn't remember who had said it, but take it as you will.

      Bottom line is anyone daft enough to use Phil Neville to back up any statement at all, is a f**king numpty, so y'know, if the cap fits and all that.

      I mean seriously.
      Phil Neville? With his UEFA B license and expertise as a yes man to Moyes?
       :lmao:
      It's really quite something when you understand that Gary Neville got the brains and the looks out of the 2 of them.

      I can only assume that your self styled "expertise" is nothing more than the repetition of whatever is said by pundits, who are either failed managers or didn't even have the bottle to try, almost to a man.
      You can see the difference when Carragher is on, a man noted for being a student of the game, he is one of the very few who talks any sense.
      « Last Edit: Nov 26, 2018 01:26:30 pm by Swab »
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #371: Nov 26, 2018 12:34:26 pm
      It looked to me like he’d pulled out of challenge just in time.....but I do think it’s work remembering he is allowed to make contact without it being a penalty too......

      It does strike me that it’s become so sanitised and indeed scrutinised that gets forgotten.

      Any contact was utterly minimal and did not result in the fall we saw - so (in my humble....) should 100% have been a yellow.

      I also think Jürgen will have a word and say - harry them in there but don’t swing a leg unless you’re in front.

      An excellent point, and something that I had indeed forgotten.

      My first reaction was penalty, but watching it back, on slow motion, no.
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #372: Nov 26, 2018 12:41:51 pm

      Now I remember why that term cracks me up.
      Scotia
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #373: Nov 26, 2018 01:22:56 pm
      Now I remember why that term cracks me up.

      I will always hear the term as my boxing coach used to shout it at me during footwork sessions.

      Even after 10 years as a footie coach it just sounds odd to me in that context......
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #374: Nov 26, 2018 02:09:47 pm
      I will always hear the term as my boxing coach used to shout it at me during footwork sessions.

      Even after 10 years as a footie coach it just sounds odd to me in that context......

      Certain buzzwords never really work for me.
      "Double Pivot" and "Transition" are up there.
      Especially as they often mean the user has no intention of discussing the points further.
      Scotia
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #375: Nov 26, 2018 02:11:46 pm
      Certain buzzwords never really work for me.
      "Double Pivot" and "Transition" are up there.
      Especially as they often mean the user has no intention of discussing the points further.

      Yes.

      Like me discussing Estrogen and the menopause.

      I know it’s relevant - I just don’t have much of a scooby why........
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #376: Nov 26, 2018 02:17:59 pm
      Certain buzzwords never really work for me.
      "Double Pivot" and "Transition" are up there.
      Especially as they often mean the user has no intention of discussing the points further.

      I'm pretty sure it's mostly because pundits come out with it, then some people just regurgitate what the pundits say.

      Although, having said that, I do find "fulcrum of attack" to be useful in understanding some aspects of play.
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #377: Nov 26, 2018 02:31:54 pm
      I'm pretty sure it's mostly because pundits come out with it, then some people just regurgitate what the pundits say.

      Although, having said that, I do find "fulcrum of attack" to be useful in understanding some aspects of play.

      Useful if used with more information.
      Ok, I understand its use in the context of pundits dishing out something that's almost catchphrase like or that can be edited into a punchy highlight. Fair enough if you've 5-10 minutes to make a point on air and you wont get asked anything else afterwards.

      "Fulcrum of attack" could be in a few places of the pitch, depending on the system.
      Might be the 10. Might be one of the midfield 2 behind. So long as it's not just thrown out on its own with nothing else.

      These terms, when thrown out on their own, are bullet points.
      Some people use them as arguments.
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #378: Nov 26, 2018 02:42:10 pm
      Useful if used with more information.
      Ok, I understand its use in the context of pundits dishing out something that's almost catchphrase like or that can be edited into a punchy highlight. Fair enough if you've 5-10 minutes to make a point on air and you wont get asked anything else afterwards.

      "Fulcrum of attack" could be in a few places of the pitch, depending on the system.
      Might be the 10. Might be one of the midfield 2 behind. So long as it's not just thrown out on its own with nothing else.

      These terms, when thrown out on their own, are bullet points.
      Some people use them as arguments.

      Good points, context is everything, which is why I pretty much dismiss any argument that depends on a single snapshot of a match.
      IMO, before making a judgement (if that's your thing) the play immediately before and after a snapshot is crucial, and even then there's a wider context which is being ignored.

      Take formations for instance (as we started off on things like "double pivot"  ), I see at least 6 or 7 formations during a match, and  I'm probably missing a few others, so it seems pointless to me who is playing a "6" or an "8" because that is only a general overview and has little to do with what actually happens during a match in a team that is extremely fluid and emphasizes the use of space rather than positions.
      It seems to me that the game has become far more about zones and space than about set positions, and whilst it's true that some  players will stay more in a particular zone, particularly defensive players, they also move outside of their zone a lot more than they used to, even 5 years ago.
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #379: Nov 26, 2018 03:01:08 pm
      Good points, context is everything, which is why I pretty much dismiss any argument that depends on a single snapshot of a match.
      IMO, before making a judgement (if that's your thing) the play immediately before and after a snapshot is crucial, and even then there's a wider context which is being ignored.

      Take formations for instance (as we started off on things like "double pivot"  ), I see at least 6 or 7 formations during a match, and  I'm probably missing a few others, so it seems pointless to me who is playing a "6" or an "8" because that is only a general overview and has little to do with what actually happens during a match in a team that is extremely fluid and emphasizes the use of space rather than positions.
      It seems to me that the game has become far more about zones and space than about set positions, and whilst it's true that some  players will stay more in a particular zone, particularly defensive players, they also move outside of their zone a lot more than they used to, even 5 years ago.

      Before moving to almost a front 4 lately, the Liverpool midfield 3 often moves from a 6 with 2 8's to 2 6's.
      All depends on the team having or not having the ball.

      Shaqiri getting more game has seen this change slightly but Klopp has said in interviews that the formation is not the main thing for him. Players taking responsibility and understanding the team responsibility in both covering or creating space seems paramount. We rarely see what is referred to as a double-pivot in truth. Possibly with Hendo & Gini, but mostly it's almost been a triple. Something maybe seen previously in Mourinho teams. Where one player does a lot of the covering and the "double-pivot" is higher up the pitch. It will be interesting to see how that evolves with Shaqiri forcing his way into the team, or will it become increasingly more like a 1-4-2-3-1, especially with Ox coming back.

      Edit: Moving to a midfield duo, doesn't necessarily mean the team will move to a double-pivot. 
      Scotia
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #380: Nov 26, 2018 03:06:45 pm
      Before moving to almost a front 4 lately, the Liverpool midfield 3 often moves from a 6 with 2 8's to 2 6's.
      All depends on the team having or not having the ball.

      Shaqiri getting more game has seen this change slightly but Klopp has said in interviews that the formation is not the main thing for him. Players taking responsibility and understanding the team responsibility in both covering or creating space seems paramount. We rarely see what is referred to as a double-pivot in truth. Possibly with Hendo & Gini, but mostly it's almost been a triple. Something maybe seen previously in Mourinho teams. Where one player does a lot of the covering and the "double-pivot" is higher up the pitch. It will be interesting to see how that evolves with Shaqiri forcing his way into the team, or will it become increasingly more like a 1-4-2-3-1, especially with Ox coming back.

      Edit: Moving to a midfield duo, doesn't necessarily mean the team will move to a double-pivot. 

      It’ll all change again anyway when Fekir signs in Jan..........  :f_whistle:
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #381: Nov 26, 2018 03:12:31 pm
      It’ll all change again anyway when Fekir signs in Jan..........  :f_whistle:

      How could I forget. :D
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #382: Nov 26, 2018 03:20:50 pm
      Before moving to almost a front 4 lately, the Liverpool midfield 3 often moves from a 6 with 2 8's to 2 6's.
      All depends on the team having or not having the ball.

      Shaqiri getting more game has seen this change slightly but Klopp has said in interviews that the formation is not the main thing for him. Players taking responsibility and understanding the team responsibility in both covering or creating space seems paramount. We rarely see what is referred to as a double-pivot in truth. Possibly with Hendo & Gini, but mostly it's almost been a triple. Something maybe seen previously in Mourinho teams. Where one player does a lot of the covering and the "double-pivot" is higher up the pitch. It will be interesting to see how that evolves with Shaqiri forcing his way into the team, or will it become increasingly more like a 1-4-2-3-1, especially with Ox coming back.

      Edit: Moving to a midfield duo, doesn't necessarily mean the team will move to a double-pivot.

      Yes, pretty much mirrors my thinking.
      As regards the alleged "double pivot", I think what we see is much more similar to the "volante" system, because the focus is on control rather than defense.

      Interesting point about a "triple pivot", or what I have been calling a "staggered 3" in midfield, and the possibility of moving away from that to a more structured system in order to accommodate Shaqiri, a player who we both gain and lose from when he plays.
      My own thinking is that as Shaqiri becomes better at defending, or more precisely, recognising when to defend, we'll start to see Firmino back as the primary/secondary attacker.
      What I see at the moment is Firmino dropping ever deeper to help take up the slack from Shaqiri's relatively poor defensive work.
      I say "relatively" because Ox is so much better at that side of the game, but in fairness, he's had a lot more practice.

      The possible midfield duo won't change much I don't think, as they are primarily defenders, and an interchangeable "volante" (I know it's not an exact description, but it's the nearest I can get with one or two words, so I just use it more for the purposes of illustrating a point, rather than saying we are actually playing that system).
      I think we'll still see the 2 guarding the flanks predominantly, rather than the centre, and I think the reason for this is the pace we now have in both CB's negates the need to split them, and move wide to cover behind the FB's.
      It's wonderful how Klopp has us playing, and I think it is only going to get more complex, as players become adept at switching between various scenario's.
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #383: Nov 26, 2018 03:41:26 pm
      Yes, pretty much mirrors my thinking.
      As regards the alleged "double pivot", I think what we see is much more similar to the "volante" system, because the focus is on control rather than defense.

      Interesting point about a "triple pivot", or what I have been calling a "staggered 3" in midfield, and the possibility of moving away from that to a more structured system in order to accommodate Shaqiri, a player who we both gain and lose from when he plays.
      My own thinking is that as Shaqiri becomes better at defending, or more precisely, recognising when to defend, we'll start to see Firmino back as the primary/secondary attacker.
      What I see at the moment is Firmino dropping ever deeper to help take up the slack from Shaqiri's relatively poor defensive work.
      I say "relatively" because Ox is so much better at that side of the game, but in fairness, he's had a lot more practice.

      The possible midfield duo won't change much I don't think, as they are primarily defenders, and an interchangeable "volante" (I know it's not an exact description, but it's the nearest I can get with one or two words, so I just use it more for the purposes of illustrating a point, rather than saying we are actually playing that system).
      I think we'll still see the 2 guarding the flanks predominantly, rather than the centre, and I think the reason for this is the pace we now have in both CB's negates the need to split them, and move wide to cover behind the FB's.
      It's wonderful how Klopp has us playing, and I think it is only going to get more complex, as players become adept at switching between various scenario's.

      I'd agree on the Firmino point. He had already become the deeper of the 3 earlier in the season.
      He's gone from False 9 to Full 10, primarily because his pressing rate is far superior to any of the other 4.

      It's why I think it'll be interesting to see if Ox coming back will see him become the 10 or will the midfield 3 become more fluid again. A lot of that probably depends on Keita really and his ability to make the 8 his own. Otherwise I'd expect to see a lot of Hendo/Gini. If Fabinho gets regular football then I expect it to been in a 1-4-2-3-1 or 1-4-2-1-3. Not sure he'd be a double-pivot type of player which would restrict the ability of the team to move between 2 no 6's and 2 no 8's.

      If the mid was Ox, Keita, Fabinho then I think you see that staggered midfield,
      otherwise I'd fully expect to see Hendo/Gini being the mainstay for the season.
      Hard work ahead for Klopp...
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #384: Nov 26, 2018 03:52:48 pm
      I'd agree on the Firmino point. He had already become the deeper of the 3 earlier in the season.
      He's gone from False 9 to Full 10, primarily because his pressing rate is far superior to any of the other 4.

      It's why I think it'll be interesting to see if Ox coming back will see him become the 10 or will the midfield 3 become more fluid again. A lot of that probably depends on Keita really and his ability to make the 8 his own. Otherwise I'd expect to see a lot of Hendo/Gini. If Fabinho gets regular football then I expect it to been in a 1-4-2-3-1 or 1-4-2-1-3. Not sure he'd be a double-pivot type of player which would restrict the ability of the team to move between 2 no 6's and 2 no 8's.

      If the mid was Ox, Keita, Fabinho then I think you see that staggered midfield,
      otherwise I'd fully expect to see Hendo/Gini being the mainstay for the season.
      Hard work ahead for Klopp...

      Integrating new players into complex systems, or a series of systems is never going to be an easy job, which I think is why Klopp places so much emphasis on "technical" players.
      When he speaks about "technical" players, he doesn't mean players with good technique, he means players who understand and can play different systems, including switching between them as necessary, but also the ability to recognise and take advantage of particular situations.
      I wasn't expecting much of an impact this season from any of the new players, but I don't doubt they all have the technical ability that Klopp regards so highly.

      I remember people criticising Rafa, saying players were not pieces in "Stratego", but I think Klopp views them in very much the same way; as interchangeable "pieces" capable of replicating the same job for the team, but with different qualities to do a job, depending on the opponent.
      The difference is the personal management that Klopp brings, that was perhaps lacking a bit in Rafa.

      Hard work indeed, and hopefully good times as well.
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #385: Nov 26, 2018 04:12:46 pm
      Integrating new players into complex systems, or a series of systems is never going to be an easy job, which I think is why Klopp places so much emphasis on "technical" players.
      When he speaks about "technical" players, he doesn't mean players with good technique, he means players who understand and can play different systems, including switching between them as necessary, but also the ability to recognise and take advantage of particular situations.
      I wasn't expecting much of an impact this season from any of the new players, but I don't doubt they all have the technical ability that Klopp regards so highly.

      I remember people criticising Rafa, saying players were not pieces in "Stratego", but I think Klopp views them in very much the same way; as interchangeable "pieces" capable of replicating the same job for the team, but with different qualities to do a job, depending on the opponent.
      The difference is the personal management that Klopp brings, that was perhaps lacking a bit in Rafa.

      Hard work indeed, and hopefully good times as well.

      At its most basic, every player has a role.
      That's not so different to "Stratego".
      Without the right pieces the system doesn't work.

      Big Virgil and Alisson already showing how vital those pieces are this season.
      Pieces are still being moved around further up to find the best way to make them work.
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #386: Nov 26, 2018 04:20:08 pm
      At its most basic, every player has a role.
      That's not so different to "Stratego".
      Without the right pieces the system doesn't work.

      Big Virgil and Alisson already showing how vital those pieces are this season.
      Pieces are still being moved around further up to find the best way to make them work.

      True, but I also think Klopp has changed his mindset somewhat and his first priority is now not to lose, which has seen us become more defensively solid, and less "gung-ho".
      Some of that is down to having VVD and Alisson of course, but it seems that the focus of the team has changed, and that we are much more patient now.
      Saturday against Watford was a good example of this.
      It wasn't pretty, but we did eventually grind them down, and more importantly, took the chances that came our way as a result of our hard work.
      It's going to happen a lot in the future, and slowly but surely we will find more and more ways to open teams up, whilst keeping the defensive solidity we have seen so far this season.

      As ever, balance is the key, and I think we're getting there.
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #387: Nov 26, 2018 04:53:35 pm
      True, but I also think Klopp has changed his mindset somewhat and his first priority is now not to lose, which has seen us become more defensively solid, and less "gung-ho".
      Some of that is down to having VVD and Alisson of course, but it seems that the focus of the team has changed, and that we are much more patient now.
      Saturday against Watford was a good example of this.
      It wasn't pretty, but we did eventually grind them down, and more importantly, took the chances that came our way as a result of our hard work.
      It's going to happen a lot in the future, and slowly but surely we will find more and more ways to open teams up, whilst keeping the defensive solidity we have seen so far this season.

      As ever, balance is the key, and I think we're getting there.

      I think that comes down to Klopp adapting.
      Gegenpressing doesn't work when the other teams sit deep,
      which invariably happens against teams that try to limit damage.
      You can't Gegenpress two banks of four, but you can draw them out.
      I think we've seen that deployed as two different systems.
      Nothing wrong with the system now that allows a deeper pair of midfielders to balance that.
      We'll still use the "433" against more open/attacking teams.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #388: Nov 26, 2018 05:45:17 pm
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #389: Nov 26, 2018 06:13:32 pm
      I think that comes down to Klopp adapting.
      Gegenpressing doesn't work when the other teams sit deep,
      which invariably happens against teams that try to limit damage.
      You can't Gegenpress two banks of four, but you can draw them out.
      I think we've seen that deployed as two different systems.
      Nothing wrong with the system now that allows a deeper pair of midfielders to balance that.
      We'll still use the "433" against more open/attacking teams.

      There was an interesting article on Tompkins site (not written by him) that stated we still use the "gegnpress" just as much, but in different area's, which has led to a misconception that we've abandoned it, rather than just modified it.
      The stats and evidence were certainly impressive, and did lend weight to the argument, but I'm not 100% convinced that we press as much.

      As I said previously, I don't really see 2 different systems, I see many variations on the same basic principle of Klopp's 433, attempting to use space effectively and create overloads in certain area's where (I assume) a weakness has been identified.

      I don't see a 4231, because that is a rigid system, which does indeed employ a true "double pivot" of a holder/destroyer and a playmaker, which basically breaks down into a 6-4 ratio, rather, I'll go back to my "staggered 3" and the variations employed within the fluidity that it provides.

      Nice chat.
      You've given me a few things to think about :) which is the whole point of the forum ;)

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