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      Voting closed: Nov 27, 2018 04:55:07 pm

      Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

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      Scotia
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #375: Nov 26, 2018 02:11:46 pm
      Certain buzzwords never really work for me.
      "Double Pivot" and "Transition" are up there.
      Especially as they often mean the user has no intention of discussing the points further.

      Yes.

      Like me discussing Estrogen and the menopause.

      I know it’s relevant - I just don’t have much of a scooby why........
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #376: Nov 26, 2018 02:17:59 pm
      Certain buzzwords never really work for me.
      "Double Pivot" and "Transition" are up there.
      Especially as they often mean the user has no intention of discussing the points further.

      I'm pretty sure it's mostly because pundits come out with it, then some people just regurgitate what the pundits say.

      Although, having said that, I do find "fulcrum of attack" to be useful in understanding some aspects of play.
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #377: Nov 26, 2018 02:31:54 pm
      I'm pretty sure it's mostly because pundits come out with it, then some people just regurgitate what the pundits say.

      Although, having said that, I do find "fulcrum of attack" to be useful in understanding some aspects of play.

      Useful if used with more information.
      Ok, I understand its use in the context of pundits dishing out something that's almost catchphrase like or that can be edited into a punchy highlight. Fair enough if you've 5-10 minutes to make a point on air and you wont get asked anything else afterwards.

      "Fulcrum of attack" could be in a few places of the pitch, depending on the system.
      Might be the 10. Might be one of the midfield 2 behind. So long as it's not just thrown out on its own with nothing else.

      These terms, when thrown out on their own, are bullet points.
      Some people use them as arguments.
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #378: Nov 26, 2018 02:42:10 pm
      Useful if used with more information.
      Ok, I understand its use in the context of pundits dishing out something that's almost catchphrase like or that can be edited into a punchy highlight. Fair enough if you've 5-10 minutes to make a point on air and you wont get asked anything else afterwards.

      "Fulcrum of attack" could be in a few places of the pitch, depending on the system.
      Might be the 10. Might be one of the midfield 2 behind. So long as it's not just thrown out on its own with nothing else.

      These terms, when thrown out on their own, are bullet points.
      Some people use them as arguments.

      Good points, context is everything, which is why I pretty much dismiss any argument that depends on a single snapshot of a match.
      IMO, before making a judgement (if that's your thing) the play immediately before and after a snapshot is crucial, and even then there's a wider context which is being ignored.

      Take formations for instance (as we started off on things like "double pivot"  ), I see at least 6 or 7 formations during a match, and  I'm probably missing a few others, so it seems pointless to me who is playing a "6" or an "8" because that is only a general overview and has little to do with what actually happens during a match in a team that is extremely fluid and emphasizes the use of space rather than positions.
      It seems to me that the game has become far more about zones and space than about set positions, and whilst it's true that some  players will stay more in a particular zone, particularly defensive players, they also move outside of their zone a lot more than they used to, even 5 years ago.
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #379: Nov 26, 2018 03:01:08 pm
      Good points, context is everything, which is why I pretty much dismiss any argument that depends on a single snapshot of a match.
      IMO, before making a judgement (if that's your thing) the play immediately before and after a snapshot is crucial, and even then there's a wider context which is being ignored.

      Take formations for instance (as we started off on things like "double pivot"  ), I see at least 6 or 7 formations during a match, and  I'm probably missing a few others, so it seems pointless to me who is playing a "6" or an "8" because that is only a general overview and has little to do with what actually happens during a match in a team that is extremely fluid and emphasizes the use of space rather than positions.
      It seems to me that the game has become far more about zones and space than about set positions, and whilst it's true that some  players will stay more in a particular zone, particularly defensive players, they also move outside of their zone a lot more than they used to, even 5 years ago.

      Before moving to almost a front 4 lately, the Liverpool midfield 3 often moves from a 6 with 2 8's to 2 6's.
      All depends on the team having or not having the ball.

      Shaqiri getting more game has seen this change slightly but Klopp has said in interviews that the formation is not the main thing for him. Players taking responsibility and understanding the team responsibility in both covering or creating space seems paramount. We rarely see what is referred to as a double-pivot in truth. Possibly with Hendo & Gini, but mostly it's almost been a triple. Something maybe seen previously in Mourinho teams. Where one player does a lot of the covering and the "double-pivot" is higher up the pitch. It will be interesting to see how that evolves with Shaqiri forcing his way into the team, or will it become increasingly more like a 1-4-2-3-1, especially with Ox coming back.

      Edit: Moving to a midfield duo, doesn't necessarily mean the team will move to a double-pivot. 
      Scotia
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #380: Nov 26, 2018 03:06:45 pm
      Before moving to almost a front 4 lately, the Liverpool midfield 3 often moves from a 6 with 2 8's to 2 6's.
      All depends on the team having or not having the ball.

      Shaqiri getting more game has seen this change slightly but Klopp has said in interviews that the formation is not the main thing for him. Players taking responsibility and understanding the team responsibility in both covering or creating space seems paramount. We rarely see what is referred to as a double-pivot in truth. Possibly with Hendo & Gini, but mostly it's almost been a triple. Something maybe seen previously in Mourinho teams. Where one player does a lot of the covering and the "double-pivot" is higher up the pitch. It will be interesting to see how that evolves with Shaqiri forcing his way into the team, or will it become increasingly more like a 1-4-2-3-1, especially with Ox coming back.

      Edit: Moving to a midfield duo, doesn't necessarily mean the team will move to a double-pivot. 

      It’ll all change again anyway when Fekir signs in Jan..........  :f_whistle:
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #381: Nov 26, 2018 03:12:31 pm
      It’ll all change again anyway when Fekir signs in Jan..........  :f_whistle:

      How could I forget. :D
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #382: Nov 26, 2018 03:20:50 pm
      Before moving to almost a front 4 lately, the Liverpool midfield 3 often moves from a 6 with 2 8's to 2 6's.
      All depends on the team having or not having the ball.

      Shaqiri getting more game has seen this change slightly but Klopp has said in interviews that the formation is not the main thing for him. Players taking responsibility and understanding the team responsibility in both covering or creating space seems paramount. We rarely see what is referred to as a double-pivot in truth. Possibly with Hendo & Gini, but mostly it's almost been a triple. Something maybe seen previously in Mourinho teams. Where one player does a lot of the covering and the "double-pivot" is higher up the pitch. It will be interesting to see how that evolves with Shaqiri forcing his way into the team, or will it become increasingly more like a 1-4-2-3-1, especially with Ox coming back.

      Edit: Moving to a midfield duo, doesn't necessarily mean the team will move to a double-pivot.

      Yes, pretty much mirrors my thinking.
      As regards the alleged "double pivot", I think what we see is much more similar to the "volante" system, because the focus is on control rather than defense.

      Interesting point about a "triple pivot", or what I have been calling a "staggered 3" in midfield, and the possibility of moving away from that to a more structured system in order to accommodate Shaqiri, a player who we both gain and lose from when he plays.
      My own thinking is that as Shaqiri becomes better at defending, or more precisely, recognising when to defend, we'll start to see Firmino back as the primary/secondary attacker.
      What I see at the moment is Firmino dropping ever deeper to help take up the slack from Shaqiri's relatively poor defensive work.
      I say "relatively" because Ox is so much better at that side of the game, but in fairness, he's had a lot more practice.

      The possible midfield duo won't change much I don't think, as they are primarily defenders, and an interchangeable "volante" (I know it's not an exact description, but it's the nearest I can get with one or two words, so I just use it more for the purposes of illustrating a point, rather than saying we are actually playing that system).
      I think we'll still see the 2 guarding the flanks predominantly, rather than the centre, and I think the reason for this is the pace we now have in both CB's negates the need to split them, and move wide to cover behind the FB's.
      It's wonderful how Klopp has us playing, and I think it is only going to get more complex, as players become adept at switching between various scenario's.
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #383: Nov 26, 2018 03:41:26 pm
      Yes, pretty much mirrors my thinking.
      As regards the alleged "double pivot", I think what we see is much more similar to the "volante" system, because the focus is on control rather than defense.

      Interesting point about a "triple pivot", or what I have been calling a "staggered 3" in midfield, and the possibility of moving away from that to a more structured system in order to accommodate Shaqiri, a player who we both gain and lose from when he plays.
      My own thinking is that as Shaqiri becomes better at defending, or more precisely, recognising when to defend, we'll start to see Firmino back as the primary/secondary attacker.
      What I see at the moment is Firmino dropping ever deeper to help take up the slack from Shaqiri's relatively poor defensive work.
      I say "relatively" because Ox is so much better at that side of the game, but in fairness, he's had a lot more practice.

      The possible midfield duo won't change much I don't think, as they are primarily defenders, and an interchangeable "volante" (I know it's not an exact description, but it's the nearest I can get with one or two words, so I just use it more for the purposes of illustrating a point, rather than saying we are actually playing that system).
      I think we'll still see the 2 guarding the flanks predominantly, rather than the centre, and I think the reason for this is the pace we now have in both CB's negates the need to split them, and move wide to cover behind the FB's.
      It's wonderful how Klopp has us playing, and I think it is only going to get more complex, as players become adept at switching between various scenario's.

      I'd agree on the Firmino point. He had already become the deeper of the 3 earlier in the season.
      He's gone from False 9 to Full 10, primarily because his pressing rate is far superior to any of the other 4.

      It's why I think it'll be interesting to see if Ox coming back will see him become the 10 or will the midfield 3 become more fluid again. A lot of that probably depends on Keita really and his ability to make the 8 his own. Otherwise I'd expect to see a lot of Hendo/Gini. If Fabinho gets regular football then I expect it to been in a 1-4-2-3-1 or 1-4-2-1-3. Not sure he'd be a double-pivot type of player which would restrict the ability of the team to move between 2 no 6's and 2 no 8's.

      If the mid was Ox, Keita, Fabinho then I think you see that staggered midfield,
      otherwise I'd fully expect to see Hendo/Gini being the mainstay for the season.
      Hard work ahead for Klopp...
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #384: Nov 26, 2018 03:52:48 pm
      I'd agree on the Firmino point. He had already become the deeper of the 3 earlier in the season.
      He's gone from False 9 to Full 10, primarily because his pressing rate is far superior to any of the other 4.

      It's why I think it'll be interesting to see if Ox coming back will see him become the 10 or will the midfield 3 become more fluid again. A lot of that probably depends on Keita really and his ability to make the 8 his own. Otherwise I'd expect to see a lot of Hendo/Gini. If Fabinho gets regular football then I expect it to been in a 1-4-2-3-1 or 1-4-2-1-3. Not sure he'd be a double-pivot type of player which would restrict the ability of the team to move between 2 no 6's and 2 no 8's.

      If the mid was Ox, Keita, Fabinho then I think you see that staggered midfield,
      otherwise I'd fully expect to see Hendo/Gini being the mainstay for the season.
      Hard work ahead for Klopp...

      Integrating new players into complex systems, or a series of systems is never going to be an easy job, which I think is why Klopp places so much emphasis on "technical" players.
      When he speaks about "technical" players, he doesn't mean players with good technique, he means players who understand and can play different systems, including switching between them as necessary, but also the ability to recognise and take advantage of particular situations.
      I wasn't expecting much of an impact this season from any of the new players, but I don't doubt they all have the technical ability that Klopp regards so highly.

      I remember people criticising Rafa, saying players were not pieces in "Stratego", but I think Klopp views them in very much the same way; as interchangeable "pieces" capable of replicating the same job for the team, but with different qualities to do a job, depending on the opponent.
      The difference is the personal management that Klopp brings, that was perhaps lacking a bit in Rafa.

      Hard work indeed, and hopefully good times as well.
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #385: Nov 26, 2018 04:12:46 pm
      Integrating new players into complex systems, or a series of systems is never going to be an easy job, which I think is why Klopp places so much emphasis on "technical" players.
      When he speaks about "technical" players, he doesn't mean players with good technique, he means players who understand and can play different systems, including switching between them as necessary, but also the ability to recognise and take advantage of particular situations.
      I wasn't expecting much of an impact this season from any of the new players, but I don't doubt they all have the technical ability that Klopp regards so highly.

      I remember people criticising Rafa, saying players were not pieces in "Stratego", but I think Klopp views them in very much the same way; as interchangeable "pieces" capable of replicating the same job for the team, but with different qualities to do a job, depending on the opponent.
      The difference is the personal management that Klopp brings, that was perhaps lacking a bit in Rafa.

      Hard work indeed, and hopefully good times as well.

      At its most basic, every player has a role.
      That's not so different to "Stratego".
      Without the right pieces the system doesn't work.

      Big Virgil and Alisson already showing how vital those pieces are this season.
      Pieces are still being moved around further up to find the best way to make them work.
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #386: Nov 26, 2018 04:20:08 pm
      At its most basic, every player has a role.
      That's not so different to "Stratego".
      Without the right pieces the system doesn't work.

      Big Virgil and Alisson already showing how vital those pieces are this season.
      Pieces are still being moved around further up to find the best way to make them work.

      True, but I also think Klopp has changed his mindset somewhat and his first priority is now not to lose, which has seen us become more defensively solid, and less "gung-ho".
      Some of that is down to having VVD and Alisson of course, but it seems that the focus of the team has changed, and that we are much more patient now.
      Saturday against Watford was a good example of this.
      It wasn't pretty, but we did eventually grind them down, and more importantly, took the chances that came our way as a result of our hard work.
      It's going to happen a lot in the future, and slowly but surely we will find more and more ways to open teams up, whilst keeping the defensive solidity we have seen so far this season.

      As ever, balance is the key, and I think we're getting there.
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #387: Nov 26, 2018 04:53:35 pm
      True, but I also think Klopp has changed his mindset somewhat and his first priority is now not to lose, which has seen us become more defensively solid, and less "gung-ho".
      Some of that is down to having VVD and Alisson of course, but it seems that the focus of the team has changed, and that we are much more patient now.
      Saturday against Watford was a good example of this.
      It wasn't pretty, but we did eventually grind them down, and more importantly, took the chances that came our way as a result of our hard work.
      It's going to happen a lot in the future, and slowly but surely we will find more and more ways to open teams up, whilst keeping the defensive solidity we have seen so far this season.

      As ever, balance is the key, and I think we're getting there.

      I think that comes down to Klopp adapting.
      Gegenpressing doesn't work when the other teams sit deep,
      which invariably happens against teams that try to limit damage.
      You can't Gegenpress two banks of four, but you can draw them out.
      I think we've seen that deployed as two different systems.
      Nothing wrong with the system now that allows a deeper pair of midfielders to balance that.
      We'll still use the "433" against more open/attacking teams.
      waltonl4
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #388: Nov 26, 2018 05:45:17 pm
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #389: Nov 26, 2018 06:13:32 pm
      I think that comes down to Klopp adapting.
      Gegenpressing doesn't work when the other teams sit deep,
      which invariably happens against teams that try to limit damage.
      You can't Gegenpress two banks of four, but you can draw them out.
      I think we've seen that deployed as two different systems.
      Nothing wrong with the system now that allows a deeper pair of midfielders to balance that.
      We'll still use the "433" against more open/attacking teams.

      There was an interesting article on Tompkins site (not written by him) that stated we still use the "gegnpress" just as much, but in different area's, which has led to a misconception that we've abandoned it, rather than just modified it.
      The stats and evidence were certainly impressive, and did lend weight to the argument, but I'm not 100% convinced that we press as much.

      As I said previously, I don't really see 2 different systems, I see many variations on the same basic principle of Klopp's 433, attempting to use space effectively and create overloads in certain area's where (I assume) a weakness has been identified.

      I don't see a 4231, because that is a rigid system, which does indeed employ a true "double pivot" of a holder/destroyer and a playmaker, which basically breaks down into a 6-4 ratio, rather, I'll go back to my "staggered 3" and the variations employed within the fluidity that it provides.

      Nice chat.
      You've given me a few things to think about :) which is the whole point of the forum ;)
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #390: Nov 26, 2018 08:19:49 pm
      I was worried about this one beforehand, even before the break. Every banana skin cop out for not winning was available; first game after the break, tiredness, cold, tough place to go to, busparkers, ref, etc. Thankfully, we only slipped on the last one when the game was already in the bag, of which more anon.

      With West Ham unable to put up any resistance to City, the signs looked ominous for us at half time, and if you had offered me 3-0 after an hour, I would have asked "how?" We were struggling to create chances, let alone break them down, and more posters were queueing up to say things about us after the game, than just German Panzer. Then the goal finally came, they had to come out and the floodgates opened up. The 3-0 scoreline looks like we won the easy way, but it was anything but until we went in front.

      It looked like it would get even more difficult when they had a penalty appeal at 0-0. With Moss in charge, I expected him to give it, as he's one of the worst refs in the league, but it was the correct decision.

      I'm always wanting Hendo to lead by example, take the game by the scruff of the neck and keep a cool head, after all that's what captains do on days like this, in games like that. I don't think I called for the shoving of opponents in their back in their own half. Moss may be keen to dish out red cards to Liverpool players, but Hendo gave him little option this time. It's our first red card since City away last year in the league. Ref? You guessed it.

      Other than that, 3 goals and 3 points to give us 33 in total, and another tricky away game safely negotiated. There's only one more trip to London left, away to Fulham.

      One other thing though. We've scored just 3 times in the league, and 5 goals overall, before half time in the past two months. We used to be known for flying out of the blocks and getting games won by half time. Now we're usually having to wait a bit longer, but while we're still winning, I suppose it's better late than never.
      I agree with most everything you said, expect that they were bus parkers... Yes they defended deep and with most of thier players behind the ball, but when they came forward they did so with numbers...
      crouchinho
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #391: Nov 26, 2018 08:26:32 pm
      Win 3-0 and three defenders are atop the MOTM voting.

      To quote the big fella, “I love clean sheets, man”.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #392: Nov 26, 2018 08:29:55 pm
      I think people are wrong when they say Klopps priority is not losing. We're still trying to win every game. We have been packing creativity in the middle sometimes that's all.
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #393: Nov 26, 2018 08:30:12 pm
      Win 3-0 and three defenders are atop the MOTM voting.

      To quote the big fella, “I love clean sheets, man”.

      I voted for TAA purely because of the free kick.
      racerx34
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #394: Nov 27, 2018 10:30:30 am
      There was an interesting article on Tompkins site (not written by him) that stated we still use the "gegnpress" just as much, but in different area's, which has led to a misconception that we've abandoned it, rather than just modified it.
      The stats and evidence were certainly impressive, and did lend weight to the argument, but I'm not 100% convinced that we press as much.

      As I said previously, I don't really see 2 different systems, I see many variations on the same basic principle of Klopp's 433, attempting to use space effectively and create overloads in certain area's where (I assume) a weakness has been identified.

      I don't see a 4231, because that is a rigid system, which does indeed employ a true "double pivot" of a holder/destroyer and a playmaker, which basically breaks down into a 6-4 ratio, rather, I'll go back to my "staggered 3" and the variations employed within the fluidity that it provides.

      Nice chat.
      You've given me a few things to think about :) which is the whole point of the forum ;)

      It's more a shift towards control in some conditions.
      If we viewed "Heavy Metal Football" as almost chaotic in it's appearance,
      we have definitely seen more definite controlled play in games where Klopp & the team have looked to grind out a result,
      nearly wear them down, before seeing the intensity ramp up.
      Subtle but important changes.
      heimdall
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #395: Nov 27, 2018 10:45:15 am

      No, not really, just a factual post refuting yours.
      The Real Donavan Ried
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #396: Nov 27, 2018 12:02:23 pm
      It wasn't a WUM attempt. It was a response to you calling people "numpties" and discrediting pundits on MOTD just to suit your argument. You can't debate, with you it's just insults and discredit. When all fails you start quoting Klopp and when what Klopp days doesn't fit you say managers aren't always honest. At the end of the day, you don't even attempt to understand other users opinions and never even think to consider they have a point worth debating. How many times have you ever conceded that another forum member was right and you had an altered perspective? I'm guessing it's zero and you call people "numpties" or "wum". Regarding Phillip Neville, I've no idea what he said but I'd imagine he was more accurate than you, as would I say the person you were insulting would be. There's only so long you can insult and not debate a point before people assume you don't know what you're talking about.

      It's not being a WUM when I said Henderson had the worst game of his season so far, Squawka, Mirror and numerous other sites rated him below 6/10 for the first time this season. What will you do to discredit this? Say Mirror has an agenda against Henderson?

      www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/liverpool-player-ratings-vs-watford-13638247.amp


      Sent off, two daft bookings. Failed to make incisive contributions from the middle of the pitch.


      So will you

      A) Agree
      B) Debate, provide counter argument with evidence
      C) Attempt to discredit and call me names

      Whooo! Rib's with the plus 7... bet the really irks him.  :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: Stick the fork in, His done  >:D
      Swab
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      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #397: Nov 27, 2018 12:05:49 pm
      It's more a shift towards control in some conditions.
      If we viewed "Heavy Metal Football" as almost chaotic in it's appearance,
      we have definitely seen more definite controlled play in games where Klopp & the team have looked to grind out a result,
      nearly wear them down, before seeing the intensity ramp up.
      Subtle but important changes.

      Agreed, it's almost as though Klopp has built his team from the front. back and is now focusing on control and solidity because he has the defensive players he wants in place.
      Perhaps we'll see a bit more backup for the forwards arriving in the future, so that they can rotate a bit more as well.
      Shabs
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
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      • 22,474 posts | 2541 
      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #398: Nov 27, 2018 12:35:33 pm
      It's more a shift towards control in some conditions.
      If we viewed "Heavy Metal Football" as almost chaotic in it's appearance,
      we have definitely seen more definite controlled play in games where Klopp & the team have looked to grind out a result,
      nearly wear them down, before seeing the intensity ramp up.
      Subtle but important changes.

      The Valencia of Rafa type...?
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 11,204 posts | 2154 
      Re: Watford 0-3 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #399: Nov 27, 2018 02:11:05 pm

      That's a nice comparison Shabs.

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