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      December News Stories

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      Ribapuru
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #25: Dec 21, 2018 06:36:23 pm
      Spot on mate..

      In the Old Testament it clearly states women should cover their hair and dress modestly..
      modestly is open to interpretation. Who is any one person to decide what is modest.
      Shabs
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #26: Dec 21, 2018 06:36:48 pm
      modestly is open to interpretation. Who is any one person to decide what is modest.

      Irony... 😂
      stuey
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #27: Dec 21, 2018 06:51:02 pm

      Not that it makes an iota of difference which sect of Islam demands that women have no identity it illustrates how far from reality some sections of religious direction can be.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #28: Dec 21, 2018 06:52:03 pm
      My final question is, why is it okay to ban above knee skirts or Jean shorts etc.. in some Asian countries, but as soon as some countries ban Burqa that's viewed as racism? Surely either both are racist or neither are. Burqa is about modesty because it's not directly related to any religion.
      stuey
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #29: Dec 21, 2018 06:56:46 pm
      Spot on mate..

      In the Old Testament it clearly states women should cover their hair and dress modestly..


      .....and should they lead the donkeys bearing their menfolk?
      How far back do you want to reverse civilisation?

      Shabs
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #30: Dec 21, 2018 07:12:15 pm
      .....and should they lead the donkeys bearing their menfolk?
      How far back do you want to reverse civilisation?



      You will find we have regressed as a civilisation when it comes to morals & modesty..

      Swab
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #31: Dec 21, 2018 07:24:53 pm
      You will find we have regressed as a civilisation when it comes to morals & modesty..

      That's the way of secular societies and freedom though mate.
      What you lose on one hand, you gain on the other.
      Boston not la
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #32: Dec 21, 2018 07:35:23 pm
      You will find we have regressed as a civilisation when it comes to morals & modesty..
       

      If ya believe that sh*t weren't adam and eve nudists and didn't everyone f**k their relatives?
      Harrisimo
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #33: Dec 21, 2018 11:09:40 pm
      They do look like letter boxes though, or do you not think so? I agree it is a bit offensive but then I find it offensive that Woman are ordered by a religion to walk around covered up head to foot.

      But I'm not a public figure...Ex foreign secretary, Johnson's stupid snide comments led to Muslim women taking all kinds of insults. I agree that women must not be forced to wear any garment they don't want to. But that doesn't entitle anybody to abuse them and call them " bank robbers"...and then have The Conservative party, a party that represents millions of decent hard working people, say Johnson was being tolerant. Akin to adding insult to injury.
      « Last Edit: Dec 21, 2018 11:44:57 pm by Harrisimo »
      Harrisimo
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #34: Dec 21, 2018 11:13:20 pm
      so if Johnson can say it does that mean everybody can?

      People have been led by Johnson and insulted Muslim Women. If Tommy Robinson had said what Johnson said all hell would've broke loose and he would've been arrested for hate crime.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #35: Dec 21, 2018 11:31:25 pm
      Some countries, including Muslim majority countries have banned the burka. It's not banned in UK right now. It's an optional part of the religion but I do think the legality of it should be reviewed. There are specific security concerns. Hospitals have banned them in some roles to ensure people don't falsely impersonate a doctor for example and it's impossible to think of everything that could cause a concern for security. People aren't targeting the Burqa, it's any item that covers the face and there are a lot of Muslims who are against the Burqa. Some non Muslim fugitives could even pose in such clothes to avoid being detected. Johnson's comments were insensitive but I don't think anybody should be able to wear whatever they want, several people in other countries have been jailed for wearing too little, when here it's seen as acceptable. We are more tolerant as a nation in general to other cultures. The rules regarding religious clothing were before security concerns got like they are now, the laws should be in line with risks. Why should innocent people be at risk just to accommodate other people's ways?

      I agree the Burka does cause security concerns in some lines of employment and in some sensitive circumstances but is it right for such a public figure to get away with outright insults that incited others to make similar insults in situations that could be threatening.

      Just about sums up the hypocrisy of the Tory Party. They get their nickers in a twist over Corbyn having the gall to mutter a fairly innocuous remark yet May & her mob imprison innocent people and boot them out and then accommodate a stupid fat headed ignorant lout such as Johnson. He is the one who should be deported. Swop him for Zaghari-Ratcliffe....let him rot in Iran...see how he likes it.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #36: Dec 22, 2018 01:54:49 am
      People have been led by Johnson and insulted Muslim Women. If Tommy Robinson had said what Johnson said all hell would've broke loose and he would've been arrested for hate crime.
      Agreed, I think Johnson was out of order and got away with it because of political power.
      heimdall
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #37: Dec 22, 2018 04:13:30 am
      It is and they are either have racist / bigotry issues or are authoritarian.

      Google that - none are good.

      Not looking to derail another thread Ribs by debating something you patently don’t understand - like football - so regrettably I’m putting you back on ignore.

      Good luck to you. We just can’t get along.

      LOL, so Morocco is racist against Muslims, that's a good one, ;D.

      If you honestly think a religion should be able to treat a woman differently to a man, in controvention to a nation's equality laws then you are the one with issues.
      The Burka and Niquab etc should be banned in all countries, they have no place in any country in the 21st century.
      Scotia
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #38: Dec 22, 2018 07:50:52 am
      LOL, so Morocco is racist against Muslims, that's a good one, ;D.

      If you honestly think a religion should be able to treat a woman differently to a man, in controvention to a nation's equality laws then you are the one with issues.
      The Burka and Niquab etc should be banned in all countries, they have no place in any country in the 21st century.

      Ok so I’ll bite this time my little neocon friend because casual racism really grinds my gears.

      As it goes I’m affirmatively atheistic. 

      The truth - largely I guess because of when the various doctrines were written - is that pretty much all religious text treats men and women vastly differently so that’s a rather facile point. Christianity has absolutely no right to patronise any in that regard.

      Western society has a pretty dubious record on equality so let’s not delude ourselves. Women couldn’t wear trousers in my office till the late 90s - crazy huh? Defo NOT equal.

      It was only around a similar time that marital rape was finally outlawed in all 50 US states. So let’s tread lightly with the fume......

      It’s just a garment - roots to its prominence come from Saudi Arabia I believe. It is not a requirement to be a Muslim women - it’s an interpretation by certain sections.

      To answer your question all the countries with the bans are responding to specific scenarios - often a desire to lay a marker down against a particular sect or (in the West) a perceived Terrorist threat

      Ultimately - that’s a fear of something different or an authoritarian line designed to appeal politically.

      To western eyes the burka does look odd when first you see it.

      As long as a woman wishes to wear it and reaches the conclusion without social / political pressure I’ve no problem.

      So that’s pretty much like a skirt, dress or any other garment a woman might choose to wear. I’m not frightened of a woman with a large sunglasses, headscarf, sari, maxi dress or heavy make-up etc etc - all of which could be used to conceal one thing or another including identity.

      It’s only banned in 13 countries - hardly the new world order.

      Being gay is banned in 72
      - should we be aspiring to that?

      I just don’t believe the froth about this is rooted in anything but the 3 scenarios I painted.

      Clearly we’re not going to agree Heimy - I’ve given you my considered views. Good luck to you.

      *Editors note: Spray on jeans on men over 40 should be banned worldwide. But hey, that’s fashion girlfriend 😉
      Ribapuru
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #39: Dec 22, 2018 02:27:22 pm
      Ok so I’ll bite this time my little neocon friend because casual racism really grinds my gears.

      As it goes I’m affirmatively atheistic. 

      The truth - largely I guess because of when the various doctrines were written - is that pretty much all religious text treats men and women vastly differently so that’s a rather facile point. Christianity has absolutely no right to patronise any in that regard.

      Western society has a pretty dubious record on equality so let’s not delude ourselves. Women couldn’t wear trousers in my office till the late 90s - crazy huh? Defo NOT equal.

      It was only around a similar time that marital rape was finally outlawed in all 50 US states. So let’s tread lightly with the fume......

      It’s just a garment - roots to its prominence come from Saudi Arabia I believe. It is not a requirement to be a Muslim women - it’s an interpretation by certain sections.

      To answer your question all the countries with the bans are responding to specific scenarios - often a desire to lay a marker down against a particular sect or (in the West) a perceived Terrorist threat

      Ultimately - that’s a fear of something different or an authoritarian line designed to appeal politically.

      To western eyes the burka does look odd when first you see it.

      As long as a woman wishes to wear it and reaches the conclusion without social / political pressure I’ve no problem.

      So that’s pretty much like a skirt, dress or any other garment a woman might choose to wear. I’m not frightened of a woman with a large sunglasses, headscarf, sari, maxi dress or heavy make-up etc etc - all of which could be used to conceal one thing or another including identity.

      It’s only banned in 13 countries - hardly the new world order.

      Being gay is banned in 72
      - should we be aspiring to that?

      I just don’t believe the froth about this is rooted in anything but the 3 scenarios I painted.

      Clearly we’re not going to agree Heimy - I’ve given you my considered views. Good luck to you.

      *Editors note: Spray on jeans on men over 40 should be banned worldwide. But hey, that’s fashion girlfriend 😉
      Scotia, that doesn't address anything, you just put a smokescreen on top of the issue Heimdall raised about the poor treatment of women, you tried to justify it by pointing out other stuff. Disgraceful! Women have been stoned to death for protesting because they wanted to drive a car, that doesn't happen in our society. Whilst not everything is perfectly equal why don't you look at serious issues rather than saying we have been dubious in equality. How many people have been executed in the last few decades in western society for woman's rights protests? Probably 0. You mention about countries that ban people from being a homosexual, that has nothing to do with this. Countries that banned face gear are concerned for security! The sunglasses argument is ridiculous. How many times have people refused to remove sunglasses during a police identity check? Additionally there's tons of people who might be offended by your spray on jeans comment, so don't try and even play any fake equality cards, it's clear you have no idea about equality. Banning homosexuality is a not something I agree with, but it doesn't mean banning the Burqa is wrong. That's a countries decision due to security concerns and these decisions are taken in accordance with officials in high places who would have communicated with intelligence, they care about their people not what social justice warriors on an internet forum think.
      « Last Edit: Dec 22, 2018 02:50:09 pm by Ribapuru »
      Arab Scouse
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #40: Dec 22, 2018 07:19:04 pm
      LOL, so Morocco is racist against Muslims, that's a good one, ;D.

      If you honestly think a religion should be able to treat a woman differently to a man, in controvention to a nation's equality laws then you are the one with issues.
      The Burka and Niquab etc should be banned in all countries, they have no place in any country in the 21st century.

      Why? because it disagrees with your point of view or belief? aren't you pro choice? should you censor others because you don't ''like'' it?

      If there was ample evidence that it poses a huge security threat then I would agree that I would like to see some measures limiting it. But so far there is not a lot of evidence, and everyone should wear what they please without harming others. It's also highly ironic that a lot of people who claim to be all about freedom of choice and free speech but then when it comes to certain issues that goes against their agenda want to force censorship on others because it doesn't represent ''us'' or ''western values'' or whatever bollocks.

      Arab Scouse
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #41: Dec 22, 2018 07:21:54 pm
      I know.   :roll:

      Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but the Burqa is more cultural than religious, as is the headscarf.
      I can't remember anything in the Koran that says they are compulsory, although if I remember correctly there is a kind of rule about "dressing modestly" which interestingly is also part of the veneration of the Virgin Mary.
      There are plenty of cultures in Judaism and Christianity where women wear headscarfs as well.

      A free society means women, and men, dressing however they want, as long as it's within the law.



      It's both cultural and religious. It's already mentioned in the hadith and the sirat but not the Koran.

      in the end Muslims in today's age interpret their religion the way it fits them depending on their social status (education, income, family, etc...)
      Ribapuru
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #42: Dec 22, 2018 08:14:34 pm
      It's both cultural and religious. It's already mentioned in the hadith and the sirat but not the Koran.

      in the end Muslims in today's age interpret their religion the way it fits them depending on their social status (education, income, family, etc...)
      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-45112792

      Dr Qanta Ahmed, a British-American Muslim doctor who lives in New York, does not wear a face veil and supports a ban on them.

      She said the number of women wearing them in the West is increasing in part because girls begin to wear them before they reach puberty and many were not given a choice.


      By contrast, in Iran the law requires women to wear modest "Islamic" clothing. In practice, this means women must wear a chador, a full-body cloak, or a headscarf and a manteau (overcoat) that covers their arms.

      There are posters in cities and towns comparing unveiled women to unwrapped candy and lollipops attracting unwanted attention from flies.

      Recently, some Iranian women have protested against this law by taking off their headscarf in public. One woman was jailed for two years in March for doing this.


      This is cultural and religion is it?

      RedWilly
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #43: Dec 23, 2018 11:00:19 am
      Just read about how the current government is trying to push through reform, without going through parliament, to force everyone who votes to present valid ID. Apparently to cut down on voter fraud (which I can’t imagine is a major widespread issue).

      The reality of them pushing this through is it takes out the demographic most likely to vote against them from the next election. I.e poor and vulnerable.

      I absolutely despise this government, I f**king hate them. They believe their ideals are more important than democracy itself.

      Absolute scum.
      Swab
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #44: Dec 23, 2018 12:35:59 pm
      It's both cultural and religious. It's already mentioned in the hadith and the sirat but not the Koran.

      in the end Muslims in today's age interpret their religion the way it fits them depending on their social status (education, income, family, etc...)

      Does it also depend on which "sect" (for want of a better word) the person belongs to?
      For instance sunni, shia interpret things differently, and wahhabism interprets very strictly?

      Genuinely interested in this.
      Swab
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #45: Dec 23, 2018 12:37:50 pm
      Just read about how the current government is trying to push through reform, without going through parliament, to force everyone who votes to present valid ID. Apparently to cut down on voter fraud (which I can’t imagine is a major widespread issue).

      The reality of them pushing this through is it takes out the demographic most likely to vote against them from the next election. I.e poor and vulnerable.

      I absolutely despise this government, I f**king hate them. They believe their ideals are more important than democracy itself.

      Absolute scum.

      Voter fraud is just the excuse.
      Voter fraud is a minuscule percentage.

      Just as the right in America worked hard to disenfranchise people, so the tories are following their lead.
      Ribapuru
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #46: Dec 23, 2018 01:34:54 pm
      Just read about how the current government is trying to push through reform, without going through parliament, to force everyone who votes to present valid ID. Apparently to cut down on voter fraud (which I can’t imagine is a major widespread issue).

      The reality of them pushing this through is it takes out the demographic most likely to vote against them from the next election. I.e poor and vulnerable.

      I absolutely despise this government, I f**king hate them. They believe their ideals are more important than democracy itself.

      Absolute scum.
      I don't understand, are you saying Labour voters don't carry ID? I always voted Labour and have been asked for ID in the past anyway.
      RedWilly
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #47: Dec 23, 2018 02:37:51 pm
      Voter fraud is just the excuse.
      Voter fraud is a minuscule percentage.

      Just as the right in America worked hard to disenfranchise people, so the tories are following their lead.

      Exactly.

      If you’re on the breadline are you going to shell out £75 for a passport or £30 on a drivers license?

      It’s an absolute disgrace.
      Shabs
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #48: Dec 23, 2018 03:43:09 pm
      Ribapuru
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      Re: December News Stories
      Reply #49: Dec 23, 2018 03:52:08 pm
      Exactly.

      If you’re on the breadline are you going to shell out £75 for a passport or £30 on a drivers license?

      It’s an absolute disgrace.
      people have ID when they work or claim benefits, otherwise applications would be rejected. Do you think people go without income for years then suddenly turn up to vote labour? That's ridiculous.
      Income Support, Universal Credit, JSA, Employment all requires photo ID, so how are people without ID able to survive? Hunt Tigers and start a camp fire in the city centre?

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