Manchester City 2-1 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

It's quite interesting.....last year Klopp was getting slated by our own for always being in attack mode. This year he shows that he's learned some lessons from that strategy and now people are upset that we are trying to play smarter and more nuanced. The big German can't win.

By all means play smarter, I like that, but don't just roll over on your back and let your main rival attack you, OK that is obviously an exaggeration but really this game was a perfect opportunity to really have a go at Citeh and show all rivals that they can be beaten, instead we just tried to neutralise them and pinch a draw or win. I just don't liek that negative way of thinking, I hope it doesn't harm us for the rest of the matches.

There was nowt wrong with Hendersons' performance last night. He made tackles, ran his ass off, marked, tracked &  tackled, defended well and moved the ball quickly. He did the job of a defensive midfielder. The issue was the other 2 lads playing middle of the park put in very similar performance and are quite similar players. Wjinaldum and Milner had similar games to Henderson last night.

As for Fabinho I actually think he would have struggled in that first half, very little space, no time to get his head up and the ball moving very quickly. He struggled away at Arsenal in a similar environment a month ago. I quite like him but his performancies are being overplayed for me. He looks the part when he has time to get his head up and the oppo are dropping off (just like Emre Can did) but he is slow on the turn (much like Emre) so I can see why Klopp doesn't fancy him to start this type of game just yet. I'm not saying he won't get there but people are painting him to be some sort of Makalele-Alonso hybrid and he isn't there yet.

Personally I also think Keita for Milner would have given our midfield the balance it probably needed on the night.

I've no idea what people such as yourself actually watch.

Henderson was poor and showed once again he is completely out of his depth against world class opposition.

Ah, that famous 'he did the job of a defensive midfielder' line. Look at how Kante played when he was in that role for Leicester and Chelsea when they won the league.  Look at Fernandinho for them.  That's how a defensive midfielder should play. And henderson is nothing like that. He's nowhere near like that. He doesn't do the job of a defensive midfielder at all.

What Henderson does is panic on the ball and choose the safest, easiest option and puts responsibility on his team mates. Every single week his team mates have to bail him out and carry him. By all means list all the games where Henderson has stepped up and dragged us over the line with his man of the match performance. I'll wait.

It shows people such as yourself just go out your way to defend him even when he's played sh*te too. How you can say 'I think Fabinho would have struggled in that first half' when he has been one of our best players recently and how it was clearly evident he changed the game for us when he came on last night is just baffling to say the last.

Well usually I'd have Milner in a game like this but he quite clearly wasn't fit so I'd have had Keita in for him too. But alongside Fabinho and gini. Which is what I hoped for in the pre match thread.

I know it won't happen mid season because it will just cause unrest within the squad and the media will create headlines but Jürgen needs to take that captaincy from Jordan and hand it over to Virgil asap.

Henderson is a squad player at the very most. God knows what some of you are watching it's quite scary. Or some of you are just completely deluded and have no idea what a top footballer is. 

I sort of agree with you, all 3 midfielders are good midfielders but for whatever reason they simply do NOT work well together, so why oh why does Klopp keep playing them together?? It is insanity.

BTW Fabinho instantly gave us more dimension and forward momentum, had sod all to do with them dropping off. BTW if Fabinho is slow on the turn how do you rate Milner?

They did drop off mate, particularly when Salah went up top and played alongside Firmino, that opened up some space middle of the park. Lets not kid ourselves that Fabinho came on and changed the game, he really didn't. Our goal came from nowhere after some excellent play from the 2 full-backs (funnily enough after a nice pass out wide from Henderson - it went forwards an all).Fabinho did ok, I agree he was more forward thinking BUT lets not forget he is another Defensive midfielder. Too many Reds stick the boot into players like Henderson, Milner, Gigi when we don't make enough things happen offensively. The front 3 generally get off Scott free. Changing one DM for another is never going to make a massive difference.

BTW if Fabinho is slow on the turn how do you rate Milner?

Haha yeah he's not the quickest either but he is the record Assist Holder for a season in the Champions League!

I've no idea what people such as yourself actually watch.

Henderson was poor and showed once again he is completely out of his depth against world class opposition.

Ah, that famous 'he did the job of a defensive midfielder' line. Look at how Kante played when he was in that role for Leicester and Chelsea when they won the league.  Look at Fernandinho for them.  That's how a defensive midfielder should play. And henderson is nothing like that. He's nowhere near like that. He doesn't do the job of a defensive midfielder at all.

What Henderson does is panic on the ball and choose the safest, easiest option and puts responsibility on his team mates. Every single week his team mates have to bail him out and carry him. By all means list all the games where Henderson has stepped up and dragged us over the line with his man of the match performance. I'll wait.

It shows people such as yourself just go out your way to defend him even when he's played sh*te too. How you can say 'I think Fabinho would have struggled in that first half' when he has been one of our best players recently and how it was clearly evident he changed the game for us when he came on last night is just baffling to say the last.

Well usually I'd have Milner in a game like this but he quite clearly wasn't fit so I'd have had Keita in for him too. But alongside Fabinho and gini. Which is what I hoped for in the pre match thread.

I know it won't happen mid season because it will just cause unrest within the squad and the media will create headlines but Jürgen needs to take that captaincy from Jordan and hand it over to Virgil asap.

Henderson is a squad player at the very most. God knows what some of you are watching it's quite scary. Or some of you are just completely deluded and have no idea what a top footballer is.

Scottbots's comment backing Henderson was ridiculous. He was watching something different because his goggles are so badly tinted.

Same sh*t, different day, same group of know nowts trying to stir the sh*t.

Pathetic.

Scottbots's comment backing Henderson was ridiculous. He was watching something different because his goggles are so badly tinted.

I've no idea how anyone can defend Henderson after last night.

Not only defend him, but go on and list aload of sh*te that apparently he did well.

After we got beat by Madrid, I said Henderson got away with it because of the sh*t show Karius put in.

Last night was similar. Henderson was a passenger in such a massive game once again but the focus has all been on Lovren and once again he gets off with it.

The bloke is a liability and I'm fed up with him. Angers me that he captains our club. He's a fraud.

Do you really not see the difference between being 10 points ahead and 4 points ahead, WOW, and you have the nerve to call people thick!!

Yeah soft sh*te 10,4,1, points makes no difference in January it’s the tally in May that counts.

I've no idea what people such as yourself actually watch.

Henderson was poor and showed once again he is completely out of his depth against world class opposition.

Ah, that famous 'he did the job of a defensive midfielder' line. Look at how Kante played when he was in that role for Leicester and Chelsea when they won the league.  Look at Fernandinho for them.  That's how a defensive midfielder should play. And henderson is nothing like that. He's nowhere near like that. He doesn't do the job of a defensive midfielder at all.

What Henderson does is panic on the ball and choose the safest, easiest option and puts responsibility on his team mates. Every single week his team mates have to bail him out and carry him. By all means list all the games where Henderson has stepped up and dragged us over the line with his man of the match performance. I'll wait.

It shows people such as yourself just go out your way to defend him even when he's played sh*te too. How you can say 'I think Fabinho would have struggled in that first half' when he has been one of our best players recently and how it was clearly evident he changed the game for us when he came on last night is just baffling to say the last.

Well usually I'd have Milner in a game like this but he quite clearly wasn't fit so I'd have had Keita in for him too. But alongside Fabinho and gini. Which is what I hoped for in the pre match thread.

I know it won't happen mid season because it will just cause unrest within the squad and the media will create headlines but Jürgen needs to take that captaincy from Jordan and hand it over to Virgil asap.

Henderson is a squad player at the very most. God knows what some of you are watching it's quite scary. Or some of you are just completely deluded and have no idea what a top footballer is. 

Sometimes when you think everyone else is deluded...it's actually you that are the deluded one.

Or when you throw your hat in with the town imbecile...that's a sign that you are going to be on the wrong side of sanity.

Back to your regularly scheduled bashing.

We were unlucky. We're still four points above them so if we own only our business we can still do it.

Sometimes when you think everyone else is deluded...it's actually you that are the deluded one.

Or when you throw your hat in with the town imbecile...that's a sign that you are going to be on the wrong side of sanity.

Back to your regularly scheduled bashing.

Thing is though, I'm not in the minority.

More and more reds and finally realising that he isn't good enough for our club. Not for a starting position in our midfield anyway.

Just a few, deluded, posters on this forum left now it seems who still think otherwise.

They'll get there eventually even if it means accepting they were wrong. Shame it would have taken them 6-7 years but hey ho.

Thing is though, I'm not in the minority.

More and more reds and finally realising that he isn't good enough for our club. Not for a starting position in our midfield anyway.

Just a few, deluded, posters on this forum left now it seems who still think otherwise.

They'll get there eventually even if it means accepting they were wrong. Shame it would have taken them 6-7 years but hey ho.

So you think he isn't good enough, and there are others on here who think he is, it's all about opinions fella you have yours and they have there's. But to call them deluded because it differs from you is unfair.

Thing is though, I'm not in the minority.

More and more reds and finally realising that he isn't good enough for our club. Not for a starting position in our midfield anyway.

Just a few, deluded, posters on this forum left now it seems who still think otherwise.

They'll get there eventually even if it means accepting they were wrong. Shame it would have taken them 6-7 years but hey ho.

I think you are overstating how many people are "realising" he isn't good enough. Klopp wouldn't pick him for the biggest games if he didn't think he was good enough. Literally, his most picked midfield for big games is Milner-Hendo-Gini. That says something about what he thinks about all of them including Henderson. I know people think we should have a Mo Salah/VVD type player in every position on the pitch, but we can't and we won't. You need some water carriers and as water carriers go, Henderson and Milner are about the best out there. Henderson knows what Klopp wants out of him and he carries out his plans and acts as the coach on the field. I don't think anyone outside of frustrated and overreacting fans have ever questioned that Henderson is a key part of Klopp's plans. That tells me that he's not the problem at all. And last night, our bigger problem was their phenom (Sane) was going against the side of our defense that is the most troublesome (Trent and Lovren) and we didn't do anything to really counter that. Maybe we should have had Fabinho in as a DM and had him help cover that side and left Gini and Hendo to roam...it's easy to second guess now, but in reality, we really played well enough to win yesterday save a couple of defensive brain farts and a couple of unlucky (for us) clearances off the line.

The frustrating is that it never fails...as soon as we lose or drop points, there's a brigade of you that want to organize a lynching for Henderson...like he's always the main culprit when we don't play 10/10. It would be a nice change if we could just look at this game for what it was...a tough away fixture against the title holders where we could have won if not for a few inches here and there. We took an L and we will continue forward beating everyone from here on out. And Henderson will be a big part of that.

Scottbots's comment backing Henderson was ridiculous. He was watching something different because his goggles are so badly tinted.

Don't be a dick, hopefully you've read enough of my posts to know that i'm not a huge Henderson fanboy or posting with any sort of agenda. I just saw a defensive midfielder put in a defensive midfielder type performance in a very tight game and commented as such. I judge him as a defensive midfielder ie. he makes tackles, tracks runners, gets it and gives it simple. I struggle with the idea that a defensive player isn't doing his job very well because he isn't effecting things often enough in the attacking sense and i'm really not clear on why so many others do? Perhaps you can all enlighten me?

Could we do better yes i'm fairly certain we could. Was he our worst player last night? Not by a long-shot.

So you think he isn't good enough, and there are others on here who think he is, it's all about opinions fella you have yours and they have there's. But to call them deluded because it differs from you is unfair.

Not deluded for rating him. Each to their own even though I don't understand how or why anybody rates him.

But there are certainly delusional comments on his performances at times, particularly after he has played very poor.

I think you are overstating how many people are "realising" he isn't good enough. Klopp wouldn't pick him for the biggest games if he didn't think he was good enough. Literally, his most picked midfield for big games is Milner-Hendo-Gini. That says something about what he thinks about all of them including Henderson. I know people think we should have a Mo Salah/VVD type player in every position on the pitch, but we can't and we won't. You need some water carriers and as water carriers go, Henderson and Milner are about the best out there. Henderson knows what Klopp wants out of him and he carries out his plans and acts as the coach on the field. I don't think anyone outside of frustrated and overreacting fans have ever questioned that Henderson is a key part of Klopp's plans. That tells me that he's not the problem at all. And last night, our bigger problem was their phenom (Sane) was going against the side of our defense that is the most troublesome (Trent and Lovren) and we didn't do anything to really counter that. Maybe we should have had Fabinho in as a DM and had him help cover that side and left Gini and Hendo to roam...it's easy to second guess now, but in reality, we really played well enough to win yesterday save a couple of defensive brain farts and a couple of unlucky (for us) clearances off the line.

The frustrating is that it never fails...as soon as we lose or drop points, there's a brigade of you that want to organize a lynching for Henderson...like he's always the main culprit when we don't play 10/10. It would be a nice change if we could just look at this game for what it was...a tough away fixture against the title holders where we could have won if not for a few inches here and there. We took an L and we will continue forward beating everyone from here on out. And Henderson will be a big part of that.

I'm not over stating it. It's true. It's taken a long time but finally more and more reds are realising he isn't good enough for the level we currently find ourselves at.

Klopp has left him out of the side for big games on several occasions. I was expecting (and hoping) Henderson to be left out again last night. He's no longer in our strongest 11, do you not agree?  Fabinho is better in the deeper role and we have a list of players who are better than him in the 8. So he no longer gets in this team.

Nobody thinks we should have a VVD or Salah in every position. Andy Robertson isn't a fancy type of footballer but he's probably my favourite player. James Milner is another one who is quite basic and just goes out and gets the job done and he is another player who I have a lot of time for. So that argument is just stupid and void. It's simply not true and it's something that winds me up how henderson supporters consistently come out with that.

I'm also sick of 'Henderson does what he's told'. Ok, so does that mean when fabinho plays he goes AGAINST what Jürgen tells him to do then? And just so happens to perform better? What about the few times gini has played in that position? Does he go AGAINST Jürgen too? And strangely and coincidentally, perform better as well? Another stupid argument from Henderson supporters.

Completely agree with you that there were other areas last night that were more of a concern and in particular that right side of defence. I've highlighted that in my posts and specifically said both Trent and Lovren were poor.  Lovren being so poor is actually a reason why henderson has gotten off with another sh*te display because the focus is all on dejan.

I also agree with you that despite our players under performing to what we usually see from them, the performance was actually decent and I felt it was a very even game. A draw would have been fair for me and I feel sorry for the Jürgen and the lads because they've come away with nothing.

That said, I'm still frustrated that the same culprits continue to let us down in big games. If you search through my posts, I stated in pre season that our first eleven is very strong bar dejan Lovren and Jordan Henderson (this was when Lovren was expected to play more than gomez). I'm sorry to say but I still stand by those comments and last nights game is exactly why. Both dejan and Jordan are ok players to have for most games in the campaign but it's fixtures like last night where they really get found out and it's clear they aren't good enough for this level.

I give my thoughts and opinions on how I see it, game by game. If Henderson has played well in my opinion then I'll happily say so unlike his supporters who refuse to admit or accept he's had a bad game because they've spent years on here defending him and trying to justify his captaincy and place in the team.

I quite often see things like 'well Henderson was no worse than gini/Milner' or whoever else as some sort of argument to support his case. Most the time I dont agree with it anyway and usually think gini/Milner out perform him, but neither gini or Milner are wearing that bloody armband anyway. Jordan should be out performing the pair of them week in, week out. If it's too heavy for Jordan (which it clearly is), then he should do the decent thing and hand it over.

Henderson is a squad player at the very most. God knows what some of you are watching it's quite scary. Or some of you are just completely deluded and have no idea what a top footballer is. 

Perhaps rose tinted glasses the word your looking for  He's had his good days but certainly agree he's now just a squad player. He certainly doesn't like to pass the ball forward. Like ive said, if you go on to win the Premier League i think he will be asked to pass the captain's roll on to VVD.

The biggest problem was the three midfielders all playing safe sideways or backward passes nothing adventious or ambitious never created in the last third the front three were living on scraps

The biggest problem was the three midfielders all playing safe sideways or backward passes nothing adventious or ambitious never created in the last third the front three were living on scraps

They had 9 shots to our 7.
We had 5 on target to their 4.
That doesn't really back up the "scraps" argument.

It was down to luck.
They had it, we didn't.
Simple as that.

Perhaps rose tinted glasses the word your looking for  He's had his good days but certainly agree he's now just a squad player. He certainly doesn't like to pass the ball forward. Like ive said, if you go on to win the Premier League i think he will be asked to pass the captain's roll on to VVD.

I hope so mate.

VVD is our best player, first name on the team sheet and just our natural leader.

Makes sense.

They had 9 shots to our 7.
We had 5 on target to their 4.
That doesn't really back up the "scraps" argument.

It was down to luck.
They had it, we didn't.
Simple as that.

Honestly lad just turn it in will ya.

F**k the stats. Our midfield was flat until fabinho came on and if you're not willing to admit that then there's just no discussing football with you.

Deluded.

I'm not over stating it. It's true. It's taken a long time but finally more and more reds are realising he isn't good enough for the level we currently find ourselves at.
…
Jordan should be out performing the pair of them week in, week out.

Don't think lot of reds are suddenly realised Hendo is crap - what they are seeing are real options to play in CM instead of him. Imho Fab is a better option there now, and I'd have started him last night. But that still doesn't mean I think Hendo is crap. For years people have been critising Hendo, even when we didn't have the options we do now, when we had nobody to put in the middle who was obviously better than him. He never hid in matches, and Jürgen must have thought highly enough of him to pick him, and leave him as captain. Just cause times are better for us now, not going to start dumping on him either.

And why exactly should Hendo be outperforming the other CMs? Cause he's captain? So, we take the armband off him and it's OK then if he just does as well as them?  Last night, agreed with Jürgen, Milner needed to go off, he wasn't affecting the game. And Gini didn't play that well either. Yet Hendo gets singled out!?  You might not understand what other people are not seeing, but same can be said from the other side.

Not going to fall out over it, the diff in opinion on Hendo is as old as the trees..

We were unlucky to lose this match i believe... But with still being top, i am happy to take it.
We need to pick ourselves up and go again. Every player has a role to play... I would have thought by now mosy would have realised this... Just look back at Origi vs Everton. We lost, let's not label our players as rubbish because of it.