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      Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

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      Harrisimo
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #425: Sep 19, 2019 01:34:35 pm
      Looking like it will have to be a really bad error by the Ref  for VAR to overturn the on field decision. But surely the point and main advantage of VAR in the first place is that the panel have 2/3 angles of the incident to decide, plus reruns and slo mo. The Ref obviously has only one angle plus the Ass.Ref.

      Suppose in one sense the integrity of the game, the spontaneity must take precedence. The balance isn't quite right at the moment. One the other hand if we had benefited we wouldn't be moaning.
      heimdall
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #426: Sep 19, 2019 02:09:24 pm
      I said we were the better side but losing does put pressure on. Given the pressure to maintain our league form with all the obvious problems that might occure I think it's not unreasonable to suggest getting into the C/L knockout stage will present problems.I also said we can overcome these challengers and qualify.

      We lost our toughest fixture in the group and we only lost because of a bullshit penalty decision, if it wasn't for that then we would have won or drawn that match . If you honestly think that Salzburg or Genk will get more points than us then you are in cloud cuckoo land.
      heimdall
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #427: Sep 19, 2019 02:13:15 pm
      Looking like it will have to be a really bad error by the Ref  for VAR to overturn the on field decision. But surely the point and main advantage of VAR in the first place is that the panel have 2/3 angles of the incident to decide, plus reruns and slo mo. The Ref obviously has only one angle plus the Ass.Ref.

      Suppose in one sense the integrity of the game, the spontaneity must take precedence. The balance isn't quite right at the moment. One the other hand if we had benefited we wouldn't be moaning.

      So was the ball brushing Bale without deviating a clear and obvious error then whilst some tosspot player diving wasn't? btw if it was the other way around then I'd still be questioning the system.

      I think all Penalties need to be looked at by the ref if there is any doubt at all and clearly in this case there was.
      Magillionare
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #428: Sep 19, 2019 03:53:58 pm
      Again, as explained by Peter Walton on BT, it has to be a clear and obvious error. By that they mean a total f**k up, and this was just a bit naive. Naive from the ref to fall for it (he should know the game situation and the player involved) and naive from our man for flicking out and giving the ref a decision to make.

      If that was given as a dive and a yellow, VAR would have kept it as such. The referees first decision makes a huge difference on the outcome.

      Personally I think it's all bollocks and designed to save the referees arse.

      If I was the ref I’d be raging my mistake was allowed to stand I think
      RedWilly
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #429: Sep 19, 2019 05:27:14 pm
      So was the ball brushing Bale without deviating a clear and obvious error then whilst some tosspot player diving wasn't? btw if it was the other way around then I'd still be questioning the system.

      I think all Penalties need to be looked at by the ref if there is any doubt at all and clearly in this case there was.

      I think all penalty shouts given or otherwise should be considered. There are a handful of penalty shouts a game, so wouldn’t slow the game any more than the niggling timewasting fouls in the middle of the park.

      Good system, utilized terribly so far.
      Tayls
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #430: Sep 19, 2019 06:06:16 pm
      So was the ball brushing Bale without deviating a clear and obvious error then whilst some tosspot player diving wasn't? btw if it was the other way around then I'd still be questioning the system.

      I think all Penalties need to be looked at by the ref if there is any doubt at all and clearly in this case there was.

      I think the difficulty there is that it's not subjective as to whether a ball has hit a hand. The call for the disallowed Bale goal was right by the letter of the law because it is controlled, very very slightly, by his hand. Although we all agree it was a dive by the Napoli lad, calling it one way or another is subjective and therefore open to interpretation. I don't necessarily fully agree with the handball rule but it does at least mean, in theory, there will be consistency with handball decisions.

      The trouble with the system at the moment for me is what constitutes a "clear and obvious" error from the referee. We've seen, particularly with the Premier League implementation, that VAR is very wary of overruling the on field referee, to the extent where something most people would describe as "clear and obvious" is just completely ignored. Haller being fouled against Norwich is the obvious example. Positively PGMOL did admit to this error amongst some others:

      https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11807734/var-premier-league-referee-chief-mike-riley-admits-four-mistakes-this-season

      Good system, utilized terribly so far.

      Think this sums it up nicely RW!

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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #431: Sep 19, 2019 06:34:45 pm
      I don't necessarily fully agree with the handball rule but it does at least mean, in theory, there will be consistency with handball decisions.

      There’s no consistency with it all; John Stones clear handball in his own box - nothing given. Laporte has the ball brush his arm in the Spurs box - goal ruled out. Bale had the ball hit his arm, fair enough you’d think but they bang on about whether your arm is in an unnatural position or not, which Bale’s wasn’t and he didn’t really gain any advantage from it.

      VAR is just sh*t. It’s taken what was already sh*t officiating for years and just complicated it further.

      The decision that went against us for the penalty, it won’t be the the last time that happens. There will be plenty more decisions like that for teams. Pogba got a penalty for United a few weeks back in similar fashion.

      It makes what was already an undeserved defeat seem even worse.
      Tayls
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #432: Sep 19, 2019 07:19:46 pm
      There’s no consistency with it all; John Stones clear handball in his own box - nothing given. Laporte has the ball brush his arm in the Spurs box - goal ruled out. Bale had the ball hit his arm, fair enough you’d think but they bang on about whether your arm is in an unnatural position or not, which Bale’s wasn’t and he didn’t really gain any advantage from it.


      Well, I did say in theory. One of the many rules IFAB changed this season means a goal scored or created after the ball has touched an attacking players hand is ruled out, accidental or not. So Bale's technically had to be ruled out according to the letter of the law, just like the Laporte one. That does favour the defending team, as you can get away with more, just like Stones did. Maybe it's not a great law but it is at least clear (supposedly) in how it should be implemented - but as we've seen VAR can't even get that right either, so it is a mess at the moment.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #433: Sep 19, 2019 11:35:58 pm
      Quote from AussieRed
      Not fussed about yesterday, Don't get me wrong, I hate losing, it feels weird and I'm not used to it all.

      Not used to it? We have lost three games against them in the past 12 months, conceding six. What do you still have to get used to? Nobody said they were delighted to get Napoli again when the draw was made. They're a serious bogey side now.

      I hope the fans that were ambushed will be ok. When they are, I hope the club look after them in the mad scramble for tickets to Istanbul if we get there.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #434: Sep 19, 2019 11:40:21 pm
      Not used to it? We have lost three games against them in the past 12 months, conceding six. What do you still have to get used to? Nobody said they were delighted to get Napoli again when the draw was made. They're a serious bogey side now.

      Take the friendly out of the equation, we've lost twice over there and beaten them over here just like we'll do again. Stop fretting... and bogey side, my arse!!

      Billy1
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #435: Sep 20, 2019 09:09:25 am
      Take the friendly out of the equation, we've lost twice over there and beaten them over here just like we'll do again. Stop fretting... and bogey side, my arse!!



      I totally agree with you.
      heimdall
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #436: Sep 20, 2019 09:40:47 am
      Take the friendly out of the equation, we've lost twice over there and beaten them over here just like we'll do again. Stop fretting... and bogey side, my arse!!



      You could certainly say its a bogey ground for us now, hope to f**k there is never a final played there.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #437: Sep 20, 2019 07:14:38 pm
      Not used to it? We have lost three games against them in the past 12 months, conceding six. What do you still have to get used to? Nobody said they were delighted to get Napoli again when the draw was made. They're a serious bogey side now.

      I hope the fans that were ambushed will be ok. When they are, I hope the club look after them in the mad scramble for tickets to Istanbul if we get there.

      Hang on, like the your obsession with VAR being perfect, you only look at it from your own biased point of view.

      You can mention the 3 games we lost to them but if you are going to use that for an argument then you should include the friendly where we stuffed 5 past them in the build up to last season and whilst they beat us at their place in the group stage, we ultimately won the most important game over the two and led to us going on to win the Champions League and them to get knocked down to the Europa League before then getting eliminated from that too.

      Nothing is won or lost in the first game of the group stage and the fact you are more bothered about a friendly defeat and them beating us at their place, which ultimately hasn’t proven costly at all so far, suggests to me you have your priorities all wrong.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #438: Sep 20, 2019 09:29:46 pm
      Not used to it? We have lost three games against them in the past 12 months, conceding six. What do you still have to get used to? Nobody said they were delighted to get Napoli again when the draw was made. They're a serious bogey side now.

      I hope the fans that were ambushed will be ok. When they are, I hope the club look after them in the mad scramble for tickets to Istanbul if we get there.

      Who the f**k cares about a preseason game? but i will say they are a good, tough team. We haven't played well (last year) or been lucky (this year) at their ground, while they also played us tough at Anfield and not for a last-minute save from Alisson we don't even get out of the group stage.

      CT_LFC
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #439: Sep 20, 2019 09:32:15 pm
      You could certainly say its a bogey ground for us now, hope to f**k there is never a final played there.

      While the PK call is soft, they also got 2 very good chances to score themselves, one which required a world-class save from Adrian, so they also had their big missed chances the way we did. They play us tough in Napoli and agree i have no desire to have to go back there again. A team i want no part of in any of the knockout rounds.
      « Last Edit: Sep 20, 2019 09:47:06 pm by CT_LFC »
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #440: Sep 20, 2019 11:33:41 pm
      We lost our toughest fixture in the group and we only lost because of a bullshit penalty decision, if it wasn't for that then we would have won or drawn that match . If you honestly think that Salzburg or Genk will get more points than us then you are in cloud cuckoo land.

      Didn't say anything of the kind.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #441: Sep 20, 2019 11:36:43 pm
      So was the ball brushing Bale without deviating a clear and obvious error then whilst some tosspot player diving wasn't? btw if it was the other way around then I'd still be questioning the system.

      I think all Penalties need to be looked at by the ref if there is any doubt at all and clearly in this case there was.

      I did say the balance was not quite right.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #442: Sep 21, 2019 12:00:20 am
      VAR will never be perfect. It will increase the accuracy of decisions, we hope. We also hope it will help eliminate perceived prejudicial decisions against us.Read a few posts on here claiming that VAR will save us up to 12 points a season.Points robbed of us by biased decisions.But in truth all teams get poor decisions going against them.

      We can't on the one hand claim we haven't got a victims mentality, and on the other hand claim bias every time a ref makes a bad decision against us.Deciding when VAR should intervene won't be easy. Few have claimed every penalty decision should go to VAR but in reality they already do - it's just that, as we know, it will only overturn a decision when it's a clear and obvious error.

      It is that point of what constitutes a clear and obvious error where it is difficult to get the balance right.We will have to give it a lot longer before taking any entrenched positions.
      « Last Edit: Sep 21, 2019 12:04:52 am by Harrisimo »
      andylfcynwa
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #443: Sep 21, 2019 02:05:45 am
      VAR will never be perfect. It will increase the accuracy of decisions, we hope. We also hope it will help eliminate perceived prejudicial decisions against us.Read a few posts on here claiming that VAR will save us up to 12 points a season.Points robbed of us by biased decisions.But in truth all teams get poor decisions going against them.

      We can't on the one hand claim we haven't got a victims mentality, and on the other hand claim bias every time a ref makes a bad decision against us.Deciding when VAR should intervene won't be easy. Few have claimed every penalty decision should go to VAR but in reality they already do - it's just that, as we know, it will only overturn a decision when it's a clear and obvious error.

      It is that point of what constitutes a clear and obvious error where it is difficult to get the balance right.We will have to give it a lot longer before taking any entrenched positions.

      Sorry mate that’s bollox they brought it in to get decisions right , it was clear and obviousl the fcker took a dive , I’m not a blinkered fan I call it as it is when we Fck it up I say so , I didn’t want it that’s just me but if we got it use it and use it correctly sh*t calls are still Being made ,
      lfc across the water
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #444: Sep 22, 2019 02:48:54 am
      Quote from Tayls
      we all agree it was a dive by the Napoli lad, calling it one way or another is subjective and therefore open to interpretation. I don't necessarily fully agree with the handball rule but it does at least mean, in theory, there will be consistency with handball decisions.

      The trouble with the system at the moment for me is what constitutes a "clear and obvious" error from the referee.

      A lot of neutrals said it was a penalty. Souness thought it was a penalty as the forward was "clever". Robbo doesn't win the ball, and there is contact. I don't think it's a clear dive nor a clear penalty. Some replays show it's a stonewall, others don't. So in that case, the original decision stood.

      Quote from 7-King Kenny-7
      Hang on, like the your obsession with VAR being perfect, you only look at it from your own biased point of view.

      You can mention the 3 games we lost to them but if you are going to use that for an argument then you should include the friendly where we stuffed 5 past them in the build up to last season and whilst they beat us at their place in the group stage, we ultimately won the most important game over the two and led to us going on to win the Champions League and them to get knocked down to the Europa League before then getting eliminated from that too.

      Nothing is won or lost in the first game of the group stage and the fact you are more bothered about a friendly defeat and them beating us at their place, which ultimately hasn’t proven costly at all so far.

      It doesn't suggest anything, bar the fact that we have won 1 game of the last 4 against them. By any criteria, that's a bogey side. The friendly we won was not in the past 12 months. The poster originally said he isn't used to it, I just asked him why? 

      Last year's group came down to goal difference, and having the last game at home was a massive help, in getting through. We don't have that advantage this year. We have won 1 of the last ten group away games, and 2 of the last twelve. I know we got through it last year, but that won't happen all the time. Our away form in Europe must improve.

      We don't know at this point what impact this result will have on the group until it's done. It may not have any, it may have a lot. Like I said, we thought we had a good result in the bag with 10 minutes left in Naples, except we didn't get it. Now fans are saying we'll beat Napoli at home. Hopefully they'll be right, but given their recent record against us, we know that will be difficult in itself.

      We thought we would breeze through the Real group under Rodgers. We won the first game, but missed the cut by one goal. This is the top club competition in Europe. Yes on paper we should make it, but nothing should be taken for granted at this stage.
      Fourbrick
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #445: Sep 22, 2019 10:39:52 am
      A lot of neutrals said it was a penalty. Souness thought it was a penalty as the forward was "clever". Robbo doesn't win the ball, and there is contact. I don't think it's a clear dive nor a clear penalty. Some replays show it's a stonewall, others don't. So in that case, the original decision stood.




      This video shows clearly that Robertson didn't touch him. If you can't see the Napoli player dining, you shouldn't be posting on a football forum.

      https://streamable.com/cncfd
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #446: Sep 22, 2019 10:45:23 am
      A lot of neutrals said it was a penalty. Souness thought it was a penalty as the forward was "clever". Robbo doesn't win the ball, and there is contact. I don't think it's a clear dive nor a clear penalty. Some replays show it's a stonewall, others don't. So in that case, the original decision stood.

      It doesn't suggest anything, bar the fact that we have won 1 game of the last 4 against them. By any criteria, that's a bogey side. The friendly we won was not in the past 12 months. The poster originally said he isn't used to it, I just asked him why? 

      Last year's group came down to goal difference, and having the last game at home was a massive help, in getting through. We don't have that advantage this year. We have won 1 of the last ten group away games, and 2 of the last twelve. I know we got through it last year, but that won't happen all the time. Our away form in Europe must improve.

      We don't know at this point what impact this result will have on the group until it's done. It may not have any, it may have a lot. Like I said, we thought we had a good result in the bag with 10 minutes left in Naples, except we didn't get it. Now fans are saying we'll beat Napoli at home. Hopefully they'll be right, but given their recent record against us, we know that will be difficult in itself.

      We thought we would breeze through the Real group under Rodgers. We won the first game, but missed the cut by one goal. This is the top club competition in Europe. Yes on paper we should make it, but nothing should be taken for granted at this stage.

      Someone really has put 50p in you haven’t they.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: Napoli 2-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #447: Sep 24, 2019 08:32:21 pm
      Quote from Fourbrick
      If you can't see the Napoli player dining, you shouldn't be posting on a football forum.

      Jason McAteer spoke to 10 ex-players at the weekend, apparently 5 told him it was a penalty in their opinion. By that logic, it was not a clear and obvious error by the officials.

      I think the ref should have looked at the monitor, so he could inform himself of all the facts to confirm or change his decision. He doesn't just get "one look" to make a decision anymore, he has the option to watch it as many, or as few times as he wishes.

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