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      The Election

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      tezmac
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #500: Dec 15, 2019 03:27:42 pm
      Bas**rds, can't bear to watch the news it's that bad
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #501: Dec 15, 2019 08:21:38 pm
      One of the most insightful and truthful articles I've read in a long time.

      https://twitter.com/johnharris1969/status/1206268878919217152?s=20
      Shabs
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #502: Dec 15, 2019 09:43:34 pm
      Harrisimo
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #503: Dec 15, 2019 10:01:10 pm
      Agreed. I don't think Labour could have won this. For sure, it may have been possible for them to prevent a Tory majority but the path to becoming the largest party let alone the majority party was too treacherous even for the most skilled leader.

      At the end of it all, you have to say that Labour's historic coalition of wealthy inner city liberals and working class communities was ripped apart by the issue of Brexit. In the former you had the die hard remainers and in the latter, many of whom were die hard leavers. Where the metropolitan liberals grip hard to identity politics, the latter don't really care for it. Squaring middle class identity politics with the politics of millions of working class communities who feel left behind (whilst displaying socially conservative views) is such a tough tough ask.

      It's a devastating result for Labour. From such a low base of just 203 seats, it makes an election win in 2025 extremely difficult, nigh on impossible to win outright. No party in modern history has ever come from such a low position in opposition to take the mantle of outright governance in just one election. The job of next Labour leader could very well just be a holding job ala Neil Kinnock. For whoever that person is though, they may well prove to be the most important leader in the party's history.


      edit: Also if last night's results didn't awaken people for the desperate need of electoral reform then nothing will.

      203 is a very low base and it will be difficult for Labour given that they have lost Scotland.But it's not impossible. Already Johnson's lies are unravelling. Brexit is high stakes stuff.Unchartered territory. It could easily go tits up very quickly. If Johnson tries to leave at the end of January with basically no deal or playing hard ball with the EU, he will be gambling all on a deal with Trump.That puts Trump in the driving seat.

      I agree with you on the new leader issue. It has to be somebody strong, very strong. As I said in an earlier post there is no natural candidate leaping out. Problem is that any new leader will have to embrace Brexit and even work with the Tories, or be cooperative to a degree, while being constructively critical.

      It's not quite game over for Labour.It will be if they get a weak leader.The membership have to realise the Left have had their go and failed badly,now they need more of a populist centre left figure. They do however have to stop giving the Tory media easy targets. Wouldn't do an any harm to wait, put an interim leader in and hope Johnson starts to screw it up.
      « Last Edit: Dec 15, 2019 10:09:32 pm by Harrisimo »
      Harrisimo
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #504: Dec 15, 2019 10:23:17 pm

      On the NHS front I wouldn't be surprised if the Tories were working on putting in place a Premuim Heath Service. A Fee based service, and claim it will free up already stretched resources. To do that they need to continue to starve the NHS of funds. So their first budget will be very telling.

      Johnson's promises mean sod all. He won because of Brexit and the media portayal of Corbyn and McDonnell. Plus Labour policies were to radical. Back to nationalisation, to late Jezzer...that race has been run.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #505: Dec 15, 2019 11:01:12 pm
      203 is a very low base and it will be difficult for Labour given that they have lost Scotland.But it's not impossible. Already Johnson's lies are unravelling. Brexit is high stakes stuff.Unchartered territory. It could easily go tits up very quickly. If Johnson tries to leave at the end of January with basically no deal or playing hard ball with the EU, he will be gambling all on a deal with Trump.That puts Trump in the driving seat.

      I agree with you on the new leader issue. It has to be somebody strong, very strong. As I said in an earlier post there is no natural candidate leaping out. Problem is that any new leader will have to embrace Brexit and even work with the Tories, or be cooperative to a degree, while being constructively critical.

      It's not quite game over for Labour.It will be if they get a weak leader.The membership have to realise the Left have had their go and failed badly,now they need more of a populist centre left figure. They do however have to stop giving the Tory media easy targets. Wouldn't do an any harm to wait, put an interim leader in and hope Johnson starts to screw it up.

      Agreed - it's not impossible but it's extremely difficult.

      Let's say at the next general election in 2025 Labour achieve a landslide of seat wins in the same manner as they did under Tony Blair in 1997. Labour won 145 new seats at that election taking their overall seat figure to 418 and a majority of 167 (an eye watering total and still the biggest majority in post war Britain!). It would have to take as dramatic a shift as that to win next time and even then it would only be a slim, but perfectly governable, majority of over 40. (if we took Labour's current 202 seats and added a 1997 like figure of 145 to them they'd be on 347).
      « Last Edit: Dec 15, 2019 11:05:50 pm by Frankly, Mr Shankly »
      stuey
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #506: Dec 16, 2019 11:47:09 am
      Agreed - it's not impossible but it's extremely difficult.

      Let's say at the next general election in 2025 Labour achieve a landslide of seat wins in the same manner as they did under Tony Blair in 1997. Labour won 145 new seats at that election taking their overall seat figure to 418 and a majority of 167 (an eye watering total and still the biggest majority in post war Britain!). It would have to take as dramatic a shift as that to win next time and even then it would only be a slim, but perfectly governable, majority of over 40. (if we took Labour's current 202 seats and added a 1997 like figure of 145 to them they'd be on 347).

      Picking up on the Tony Blair theme, he served three terms as a Labour PM and enjoyed great success for the most part,  those who take a harsher perspective of his tenure do so to chisel away at the party itself or the misguided far left who believe he was in league with the Tories
      because of his efforts to make policies more acceptable to a wider electorate,  chiselling away at the party from within.

      Unfortunately it took a general election and victory to the elitists to illustrate the folly of stepping back in time to an unworkable and generally unacceptable interpretation of socialism.
      Reminiscent of Degsy Hatton who caused the party grievous damage with similar hard left aspirations.
      « Last Edit: Dec 16, 2019 12:18:42 pm by stuey »
      Shabs
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #507: Dec 16, 2019 06:35:53 pm
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #508: Dec 16, 2019 08:03:41 pm

      How dare you worry about your health, when there is deals with the US to be made!!
      RedPuppy
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #509: Dec 16, 2019 08:32:06 pm
      Shabs
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      stuey
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #511: Dec 16, 2019 08:52:25 pm
      Harrisimo
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #512: Dec 16, 2019 09:37:32 pm
      Johnson will put a match to a regulation bonfire. He'll turn the UK into a low tax, low regulated economy. Workers rights will be watered down even more. Austerity won't end as it is more or less the norm now anyway. All Johnson has to do is dish out some bullsh*t sound bite.Fine as long as you don't read the small print.

      The City will want to retain elements of EU financial regulation to keep in step with the EU. Financial Passports or the right to sell financial services accros the EU, are already under threat from Barnier. He has said "Brexit means Brexit right accros the board"...in other words we can't have our cake and eat it. If UK financial institutions don't stay in step with Pan European financial rules we risk losing the ability to sell financial services accros the EU.

      That will be a very serious blow to the UK financial economy. And like it or not, we are all linked to the City in some capacity.
      Shabs
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #513: Dec 16, 2019 10:56:58 pm
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #514: Dec 16, 2019 11:31:31 pm
      Johnson will put a match to a regulation bonfire. He'll turn the UK into a low tax, low regulated economy. Workers rights will be watered down even more. Austerity won't end as it is more or less the norm now anyway. All Johnson has to do is dish out some bullsh*t sound bite.Fine as long as you don't read the small print.

      The City will want to retain elements of EU financial regulation to keep in step with the EU. Financial Passports or the right to sell financial services accros the EU, are already under threat from Barnier. He has said "Brexit means Brexit right accros the board"...in other words we can't have our cake and eat it. If UK financial institutions don't stay in step with Pan European financial rules we risk losing the ability to sell financial services accros the EU.

      That will be a very serious blow to the UK financial economy. And like it or not, we are all linked to the City in some capacity.

      We talk about chlorinated chicken and deregulated banking sectors and all that but it might be the least of our worries as you so rightly highlight when it comes to the regulatory bonfire. In terms of our public safety we could slip back into the non-existent regulation nightmare of the 80s which helped cause the Zeebrugge ferry disaster, Piper Alpha and Hillsborough.

      Perhaps Grenfell was the dawn of this return to this bleak age.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #515: Dec 17, 2019 02:09:54 pm

      It's great how brainwashed the majority of the bellends in this country are.

      Would it be wrong to guess the answer might be a Norman Tebbit sounding "get on your bikes"

      stuey
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #516: Dec 17, 2019 02:15:42 pm
      It's great how brainwashed the majority of the bellends in this country are.

      Would it be wrong to guess the answer might be a Norman Tebbit sounding "get on your bikes"



      Oh aye it's still being peddled.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #517: Dec 17, 2019 02:40:20 pm
      It's just gonna get worse.





      But you know at least we got back control!!
      tezmac
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #518: Dec 17, 2019 07:46:52 pm
      What he'd Boris in his first cabinet meeting since the election, Boris.. how many hospitals are we going to build ... the cabinet reply 40 pantomime seasons here...
      Diego LFC
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #519: Dec 17, 2019 09:02:54 pm
      It's just gonna get worse.





      But you know at least we got back control!!

      Yeah but according to the Norwegian Tory we have in this forum, a vote for the Tories was a vote against evil and bigotry
      Harrisimo
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #520: Dec 17, 2019 11:59:00 pm
      Watching John Pilgers report on ITV..The Dirty War on the NHS. After 5 years of "piccanninies" Johnson the NHS will be finished. It will be a privatly owned organisation.

      The Vultures are circling..
      Shabs
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #521: Dec 18, 2019 01:03:15 am
      Watching John Pilgers report on ITV..The Dirty War on the NHS. After 5 years of "piccanninies" Johnson the NHS will be finished. It will be a privatly owned organisation.

      The Vultures are circling..

      Telling why it was not allowed to air before the election.. 🤔
      heimdall
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #522: Dec 18, 2019 08:28:58 am
      Agreed - it's not impossible but it's extremely difficult.

      Let's say at the next general election in 2025 Labour achieve a landslide of seat wins in the same manner as they did under Tony Blair in 1997. Labour won 145 new seats at that election taking their overall seat figure to 418 and a majority of 167 (an eye watering total and still the biggest majority in post war Britain!). It would have to take as dramatic a shift as that to win next time and even then it would only be a slim, but perfectly governable, majority of over 40. (if we took Labour's current 202 seats and added a 1997 like figure of 145 to them they'd be on 347).

      Its simply not going to happen though is it. Labour are currently running around in small circles blaming everyone but themselves. The attack on the media is really silly. The print media is currently pro-Tory but it hasn't always been this way, under Blair most print media backed him so they will tend to go with what is popular in the country and that is certainly not Corbyn or Labour. In TV though its a very different picture where the majority of channels are very pro Remain and consequently anti-Tory, especially BBC and Channel 4. In any case blaming the media in an age of social media is quite pathetic, there are so many ways of getting a message across, unfortunately the Labour message was far to muddled and far to radical for the UK's taste. This country has never been really socialist and hopefully it never will be.
      As for the future Labour should elect someone like Lisa Nandy, a moderate from the North, but they won't, they'll elect SIR Keir Starmer or Rebecca Long-Bailey, those double barrel names and knighthoods will really resonate with working class people I'm sure as will sticking to Corbynist radical socialist policies!
      TameImpala
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #523: Dec 18, 2019 08:37:44 am
      they'll elect SIR Keir Starmer or Rebecca Long-Bailey, those double barrel names and knighthoods will really resonate with working class people I'm sure as will sticking to Corbynist radical socialist policies!

      What a load of shabbite. Long-Bailey is the daughter of a Salford docker & her deputy would be Angela Rayner, a trade unionist from Stockport. Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson's name didn't stop him from winning any votes
      heimdall
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      Re: The Election
      Reply #524: Dec 18, 2019 08:40:01 am

      and who will force the UK government to accept this, thereby cutting trade with the bigger EU market or you, the consumer, to buy it? This is just scare stories form the pro-Tory BBC!!!!

      One thing, which many people seem to misunderstand, is that the UK does NOT need a US trade deal, its not dependent on it at all. We currently have a trade surplus with the US as opposed to the trade deficit we have with the EU. Of course a trade deal would be nice to have but its not like we are doomed without it so we are not in a powerless position to accept anything the US suggests.

      Its the same with the NHS and all those absurd claims form the Russian dossier Corbyn was waving about, why on earth would the UK government agree to pay more for drugs than it currently does, the NHS is a very very big international customer for drugs company and has a hell of a lot of leverage in negotiations, its certainly not going to willingly overpay.

      One final point on privatisation of the NHS, if it remains free at the point of use whilst delivering at least the same level of service, but prob much better, then what is the issue with parts of it being given over to private companies who can run it better than it currently is? One  of the biggest issues with the NHS is not a lack of money it is terrible mismanagement, for example how can it be justified that there are as many management and admin roles as there are doctors and nurses?
      The main goal has to be to provide the best service possible and if Private companies can manage things better, and its bloody hard to see how they wouldn't, then what is the issue with that?

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