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      Trouble at the back?

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      JD
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      Trouble at the back?
      Nov 25, 2019 01:50:34 pm
      I know we're top of the league by 8 points and I know we're enjoying all these late winners.  But, has anyone got any ideas what's happened to our boss defence!?

      https://twitter.com/lfcstats/status/1198954855655718913
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #1: Nov 25, 2019 02:01:15 pm
      Completely anecdotal on my part, but it seems to me the center backs have not been as sharp.

      Maybe a better approach is to look at the goals we've allowed of late. Not counting the kids' match vs. Arsenal (5-5), we have surrendered one goal in each of the last eight matches.

      What do you all remember about each of those eight goals? What happened? Who was culpable (if anyone)? Is there a trend there or do we just happen to have conceded eight goals in eight different ways?

      Tactically astute posters - enlighten us!
      « Last Edit: Nov 25, 2019 02:24:32 pm by Robby The Z »
      Swab
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #2: Nov 25, 2019 02:15:12 pm
      Completely anecdotal on my part, but it seems to me the center backs have not been as sharp.

      Maybe a better approach is to look at the goals we've allowed of late. Not counting the kids' match vs. Arsenal (5-5), we have surrendered one goal in each of the last eight matches.

      What do you all remember about each of those eight goals. What happened? Who was culpable (if anyone)? Is there a trend there or do we just happen to have conceded eight goals in eight different ways?

      Tactically astute posters - enlighten us!

      It's simply that teams have worked out ways to get at us.
      Our right side is weak defensively.
      Neither Gomez nor Lovren are as good as Matip has been (yet), TAA for all his brilliance going forwards is not a great defender.
      When teams make the game scrappy, and combine it with a high press (like Palace did on saturday) we lose a bit of rythmn.

      When we get pushed back, we are sometimes a bit too "loose" because we have half an eye on a fast counter.

      Add in different formations, transitions to the defensive shapes of thse formations, and you get gaps.
      They're only small gaps, but at this level that's all it takes.

      On the plus side, we rarely get dominated and don't give away too many clear chances.

      Teams are going to score against us, they will be more up for a match because of our status, and as we've seen, that means grinding them down.
      racerx34
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #3: Nov 25, 2019 02:29:37 pm
      I know we're top of the league by 8 points and I know we're enjoying all these late winners.  But, has anyone got any ideas what's happened to our boss defence!?

      https://twitter.com/lfcstats/status/1198954855655718913

      Think Matip has been a bigger loss than we'd like to admit, and Alisson probably not back to his sharpest yet.
      Also think Trent looked a bit off, probably from playing both England games.
      Not even at the December fixtures yet. Klopp and Pep will have their work cut out to balance this out.
      leosc
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #4: Nov 25, 2019 03:38:23 pm
      It's interesting because we haven't been able to keep a lot of clean sheets this year and the defense seems to be playing worse than last year, but if we look at the numbers, we have the second best defense of the league so far (11 goals vs Leicester's 8) so it doesn't look as bad.

      Just as a comparison, City have 14 goals allowed and Chelsea 19.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #5: Nov 25, 2019 03:46:26 pm
      Lack of concentration and awareness of players making a run behind. Think I said in the match thread at the weekend when it looked as though Palace had taken the lead, Virgil needed to wake up because he had no idea of Tomkins behind him and that’s been a familiar thing with him and our defence this season. The Zaha goal, Robbo and Origi both had poor position and were late to react. At the start of the season it was boss strikes that were meaning we conceded, like the Newcastle goal, but now we just look sloppy and like we will concede every game.
      Against Genk we conceded a corner and from that they had their first shot of the game and it was a goal. Everyone seems alert going forward but Trent, Matip, Lovren, Virgil and Robbo have all looked lazy, diving in, unaware and a few seconds off the pace far too often.

      I thought it was maybe to do with the higher line we were playing with but lately the goals we concede have just been sloppy and shown a complete lack of awareness. The fact Spurs scored against us after about 30 seconds was an instant indication that we are caught sleeping too often.
      The City goal came from TAA having no support; the one time Mane switched off and was casually strolling back and they took advantage.
      The goals Salzburg put past us were all because we were caught on the ball or out of position.

      We’ve looked worse since losing Matip though and although we aren’t suffering as a result at the moment, clean sheets will give our defence and Alisson a massive confidence boost again and you can see it’s much needed. I’m sure once we get 1 or 2 then they will be much more frequent again.
      « Last Edit: Nov 25, 2019 03:53:02 pm by 7-King Kenny-7 »
      racerx34
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #6: Nov 25, 2019 04:06:42 pm
      The City goal came from TAA having no support; the one time Mane switched off and was casually strolling back and they took advantage.
      The goals Salzburg put past us were all because we were caught on the ball or out of position.

      Mane was no longer playing on that side for the City goal.
      He'd been immense. Issue arose when Ox was put on that side and Sterling got some more joy.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #7: Nov 25, 2019 04:13:43 pm
      Can't compare at this stage of the season. No secret TAA gets a bit to high at times, as does Robbo. Klopp put Gomez in at left back with TAA to cover Zaha. Benteke went past Lovren to easily for their goal, but I don't think there is any major problems with our defence. One or two issues against Palace that the Boss said need attention. Probably to do with cover when the full backs support.

      Maybe he was narked at Lovren or not happy with Origi staying down. Fabio is getting better by the week. Maybe a bit rash with one or two tackles, gets booked to much.Tackle success rate of 55%. Out of Brighton game.

      heimdall
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #8: Nov 25, 2019 04:43:23 pm
      It is a bit of a puzzler, yes we are maybe a bit more sloppy at the back but its more sloppy as a unit rather than individually. I think part of the problem is that we are not scoring enough goals and that is giving the opposition more confidence, I also think a slight issue is our current midfield which is neither defensive, with the obvious exception of Fabinho, or attacking. Its why I advocate playing a moe attacking midfielder to pin opposition teams further back.

      I would also say that most of the goals we have conceded have been pretty good goals well constructed and executed, there haven't been many sloppy cheap goals, so perhaps its just a case of  all teams getting better in an attacking sense, as mentioned we have the second best defence behind a Leicester team who have yet to play a lot of the top teams.
      Boston not la
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #9: Nov 25, 2019 05:14:46 pm
      Completely anecdotal on my part, but it seems to me the center backs have not been as sharp.

      Maybe a better approach is to look at the goals we've allowed of late. Not counting the kids' match vs. Arsenal (5-5), we have surrendered one goal in each of the last eight matches.

      What do you all remember about each of those eight goals? What happened? Who was culpable (if anyone)? Is there a trend there or do we just happen to have conceded eight goals in eight different ways?

      Tactically astute posters - enlighten us!
         

      Pretty sure it's all Hendo's fault mate, ;D
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #10: Nov 25, 2019 05:58:59 pm
      I know we're top of the league by 8 points and I know we're enjoying all these late winners.  But, has anyone got any ideas what's happened to our boss defence!?

      https://twitter.com/lfcstats/status/1198954855655718913

      Missing Joel Matip, the real colossus!!
      Swab
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #11: Nov 25, 2019 06:01:51 pm
      Can't compare at this stage of the season. No secret TAA gets a bit to high at times, as does Robbo. Klopp put Gomez in at left back with TAA to cover Zaha. Benteke went past Lovren to easily for their goal, but I don't think there is any major problems with our defence. One or two issues against Palace that the Boss said need attention. Probably to do with cover when the full backs support.

      Maybe he was narked at Lovren or not happy with Origi staying down. Fabio is getting better by the week. Maybe a bit rash with one or two tackles, gets booked to much.Tackle success rate of 55%. Out of Brighton game.

      That is the backbone of our system, as I keep telling you, and you keep choosing to ignore.

      The FB's are (for the most part) not support players, but primary attacking players.
      Klopp has spoken about this at length.

      I honestly don't know what is so difficult to understand about this.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #12: Nov 25, 2019 06:06:59 pm
      That is the backbone of our system, as I keep telling you, and you keep choosing to ignore.

      The FB's are (for the most part) not support players, but primary attacking players.
      Klopp has spoken about this at length.

      I honestly don't know what is so difficult to understand about this.

      Get up all they want but TAA still needs to learn how to defend.
      Swab
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #13: Nov 25, 2019 06:12:53 pm
      Get up all they want but TAA still needs to learn how to defend.

      Yep, the whole point of having a midfielder behind him is to hold the play up and defend while he gets back into his defensive position, which to be fair he does pretty well.
      It's what he does when he gets back there.
      A bit naive at times, not great at showing the opposition wide, allowing them to cut inside him, a bit careless giving away fouls at times.
      It's not a big deal for me considering his age, but there's times when I wished he was just an old fashioned winger because he's such a cracking footballer.
      clint_call01
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #14: Nov 25, 2019 06:27:46 pm
      I know Jd what you're speaking about but this year we are more I will score one more goal than you type of mentality. We need to be more solid in these festival period not to be overburned.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #15: Nov 25, 2019 06:32:35 pm
      What's remarkable is that usually we're not conceding more than 1 a game meaning we have the third best defensive record in the league. It's quitr bizarre.

      I'm pretty sure we're being told to defend higher this season compared to last as well. A high defensive line always risked an offside not being spotted by linesman but with VAR now in play I think it's now easier to play now without such concerns. Against Chelsea for instance it worked wonders thanks to it more or less taking Abraham completely out of the game.

      How many shots on target have we faced this year compared to this time last year? There must be a dataset out there that is able to tell us.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #16: Nov 25, 2019 06:57:30 pm
      What's remarkable is that usually we're not conceding more than 1 a game meaning we have the third best defensive record in the league. It's quitr bizarre.

      I'm pretty sure we're being told to defend higher this season compared to last as well. A high defensive line always risked an offside not being spotted by linesman but with VAR now in play I think it's now easier to play now without such concerns. Against Chelsea for instance it worked wonders thanks to it more or less taking Abraham completely out of the game.

      How many shots on target have we faced this year compared to this time last year? There must be a dataset out there that is able to tell us.

      I wonder what is the average number of goals per game is in the Premier League, compared to 5-10-20 years ago? I'm thinking it's higher now. That might help account for while we're giving up more than previous years but still among the league's best in goals allowed.
      sore monad
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #17: Nov 25, 2019 07:30:02 pm
      It's simply that teams have worked out ways to get at us.
      Our right side is weak defensively.
      Neither Gomez nor Lovren are as good as Matip has been (yet), TAA for all his brilliance going forwards is not a great defender.
      When teams make the game scrappy, and combine it with a high press (like Palace did on saturday) we lose a bit of rythmn.

      When we get pushed back, we are sometimes a bit too "loose" because we have half an eye on a fast counter.

      Add in different formations, transitions to the defensive shapes of thse formations, and you get gaps.
      They're only small gaps, but at this level that's all it takes.

      On the plus side, we rarely get dominated and don't give away too many clear chances.

      Teams are going to score against us, they will be more up for a match because of our status, and as we've seen, that means grinding them down.

      You're right the right side of our defence is a weakness. But you can hardly blame Gomez - he's hardly played this season. If we played him instead of Trent we would be a lot more solid, but obviously we would lose a lot going forward. I'd play him instead of Lovren. He was superb there last season til he got injured. He's got more composure than Lovren, and his pace means he can cover in behind Trent much better. (He's also a lot more comfortable going out into wide areas to do this.)
      tezmac
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #18: Nov 25, 2019 08:40:36 pm
      TTA gets forward and gets little cover ( Salah ) and TTA struggles himself, on the other side Robinson gets cover (Mane ) and no doubt teams target the right hand side
      Swab
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #19: Nov 25, 2019 08:44:11 pm
      You're right the right side of our defence is a weakness. But you can hardly blame Gomez - he's hardly played this season. If we played him instead of Trent we would be a lot more solid, but obviously we would lose a lot going forward. I'd play him instead of Lovren. He was superb there last season til he got injured. He's got more composure than Lovren, and his pace means he can cover in behind Trent much better. (He's also a lot more comfortable going out into wide areas to do this.)

      Where the f**k have I blamed Gomez?

      Listen fella, in case you hadn't noticed, I don't play this silly blame game
      It's a team sport, and we win, lose or draw as a team.

      It's simply pointing out the obvious when I say that neither Gomez or Lovren is at the level Matip was before his injury, same as saying that TAA is not a great defender, especially when you compare his defending to his attacking play.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #20: Nov 25, 2019 08:45:09 pm
      That is the backbone of our system, as I keep telling you, and you keep choosing to ignore.

      The FB's are (for the most part) not support players, but primary attacking players.
      Klopp has spoken about this at length.

      I honestly don't know what is so difficult to understand about this.

      Back to your arrogance again Swab...I am at a loss to understand your ludicrous stance. I say support in relation to the full backs..and you jump in saying they are " primary attacking players"...firstly they are primarilry defenders...not as you claim...attackers. They are part of the back 4..not the front 3/4...I honestly....well I do know why you find this difficult to understand...it's because you are full of ridiculous coach speak...your waffling..stating the "bleedin' obvious" post earlier on in this thread puts you to shame.

      TAA is a full back...Robbo is a full back..capiche...their first job is primarily to defend...but differences between posters isn't the issue here...it's your blatant know all attitude that's the issue here...and I don't know why...you are not an outstanding poster in my opinion...not bad by any means...about average...so why the belittling patronising claptrap Swab...

      n.b. Maybe Swab you should look up the meaning of the word " primary"....chief importance; principal....
      « Last Edit: Nov 25, 2019 09:11:08 pm by Harrisimo »
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #21: Nov 25, 2019 09:04:15 pm
      It's simply that teams have worked out ways to get at us.
      Our right side is weak defensively.
      Neither Gomez nor Lovren are as good as Matip has been (yet), TAA for all his brilliance going forwards is not a great defender.
      When teams make the game scrappy, and combine it with a high press (like Palace did on saturday) we lose a bit of rythmn.

      When we get pushed back, we are sometimes a bit too "loose" because we have half an eye on a fast counter.

      Add in different formations, transitions to the defensive shapes of thse formations, and you get gaps.
      They're only small gaps, but at this level that's all it takes.

      On the plus side, we rarely get dominated and don't give away too many clear chances.

      Teams are going to score against us, they will be more up for a match because of our status, and as we've seen, that means grinding them down.

      This is stating the "bleedin obvious". Smacks of putting stuff in just to fill out the post..trying to give the impression you are some kind of expert..expert in waffle.

      "on the plus ,side we rarely get dominated and don't give away to many chances"...and you separate this waffle as if it's some great insight....not in itself a bad post but no real insight, just waffle .

      « Last Edit: Nov 25, 2019 09:12:08 pm by Harrisimo »
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #22: Nov 25, 2019 09:06:29 pm
      Where the f**k have I blamed Gomez?

      Listen fella, in case you hadn't noticed, I don't play this silly blame game
      It's a team sport, and we win, lose or draw as a team.

      It's simply pointing out the obvious when I say that neither Gomez or Lovren is at the level Matip was before his injury, same as saying that TAA is not a great defender, especially when you compare his defending to his attacking play.

      But you continually point out the obvious..and dress it up as if it's some great insight.
      sore monad
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #23: Nov 25, 2019 09:10:20 pm
      Where the f**k have I blamed Gomez?

      Listen fella, in case you hadn't noticed, I don't play this silly blame game
      It's a team sport, and we win, lose or draw as a team.

      It's simply pointing out the obvious when I say that neither Gomez or Lovren is at the level Matip was before his injury, same as saying that TAA is not a great defender, especially when you compare his defending to his attacking play.

      Bit touchy there aren't you mate?

      The thread is about why we aren't as strong defensively as last season. You said neither Gomez or Lovren is as good as Matip. I was agreeing with you about Lovren, but not Gomez. No need to throw a strop.
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #24: Nov 25, 2019 09:16:34 pm
      TAA is a full back...Robbo is a full back..capiche...their first job is primarily to defend

      I don't think in our current system their job is primarily to defend, if it was they would be held back and not allowed to bomb forward every game, all game. The primary defenders in our system are the two CB's and Fabinho who drops in; it's like people complaining our mid-field is pedestrian and we need more offensive output when it is clear they are there to enable both TAA and Robbo the opportunity to attack. Historically of course the FB's job is to primarily defend, but the manager has rewritten the rule book on this and as such we have the highest offensive output in the fullback position in the world.

      If you think they're job is defend first it might be best to drop the manager a note and let him know how it should be done, cause obviously he didn't get the memo.

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