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      Trouble at the back?

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      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #25: Nov 25, 2019 09:17:34 pm
      I don't think in our current system their job is primarily to defend

      It helps if they can though ;)
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #26: Nov 25, 2019 09:23:12 pm

      Well seeing how we have given up 11 goals in 13 league matches i'd say they are defending just fine.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #27: Nov 25, 2019 09:26:25 pm

      HR...looks like we've only got two defenders...VVD & Lovren...the rest are up there being "primary attacking players"...

      Boss.."Now Robbo & Trent listen up...you are now "primary attacking players"...so get up there and attack...primarily..got it.....if you get time keep an eye on the back.....apparantly we have a bit of "trouble at the bacccckkk"...

      I'm not surprised as 'arf the defence are away "primarily attacking"..
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #28: Nov 25, 2019 09:27:41 pm
      Boss.."Now Robbo & Trent listen up...you are now "primary attacking players"...so get up there and attack

      Is that not what they have done for the past 18 months?
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #29: Nov 25, 2019 09:29:17 pm
      Mane was no longer playing on that side for the City goal.
      He'd been immense. Issue arose when Ox was put on that side and Sterling got some more joy.


      Ox wasn’t on the pitch when they scored. Mane was just stood on the corner of the box on our right side, watching as we we’re trying to get the ball back in box and Sterling have a simple pass and Angelino had a free run on to the ball, completely untracked and was able to put the ball across the box.

      Not saying he wasn’t boss, just that it was the one time Mane switched off but he should have seen the run of Angelino...well he did see it, can see him watch him go and not do anything but in that instance I think he was focusing more on the ball breaking to him and neglected his defensive duties.

      But Mane isn’t the only one who switched off, nobody seemed to have a clue Bernardo Silva was lurking at the back.


      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kZIsoA1p9J4
      « Last Edit: Nov 25, 2019 09:36:27 pm by 7-King Kenny-7 »
      Harrisimo
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #30: Nov 25, 2019 09:31:45 pm
      Is that not what they have done for the past 18 months?

      Not you as well...AZ..Trent and Robbo are defenders.....And...they ...sometimes...supoort.. .the att........."Stop that Harrismo...you must not say support...it's "primary attacking" don't yer know.."

      sorry...it just slipped out..
      AZPatriot
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #31: Nov 25, 2019 09:45:09 pm
      Not you as well...AZ..Trent and Robbo are defenders.....And...they ...sometimes...supoort.. .the att........."Stop that Harrismo...you must not say support...it's "primary attacking" don't yer know.."

      sorry...it just slipped out..

      IDK, your free to call them anything you want.

      They are up there at the top of the league the last 18 months in assists and you see the manager using midfielders to cover them so they can go forward but whatever.

      Don't think Guardiola has spent 200 million on fullbacks searching for the perfect "defend first" mentality nor do him, Klopp or Simione use them as traditional defenders like Mourinho or Hodgson do. Personally i think both do a fine job at defending (Robertson is a bit better at it but he's not a converted mid-fielder either).

      You simply cannot expect them to defend as well as perhaps they could strictly because the manager is using them as offensive weapons, it's either that or both TAA and Robbo are going rouge each match and ignoring the managers call to "defend first and foremost"
      Swab
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #32: Nov 25, 2019 09:54:04 pm
      Back to your arrogance again Swab...I am at a loss to understand your ludicrous stance. I say support in relation to the full backs..and you jump in saying they are " primary attacking players"...firstly they are primarilry defenders...not as you claim...attackers. They are part of the back 4..not the front 3/4...I honestly....well I do know why you find this difficult to understand...it's because you are full of ridiculous coach speak...your waffling..stating the "bleedin' obvious" post earlier on in this thread puts you to shame.

      TAA is a full back...Robbo is a full back..capiche...their first job is primarily to defend...but differences between posters isn't the issue here...it's your blatant know all attitude that's the issue here...and I don't know why...you are not an outstanding poster in my opinion...not bad by any means...about average...so why the belittling patronising claptrap Swab...

      n.b. Maybe Swab you should look up the meaning of the word " primary"....chief importance; principal....

      So you think Klopp's stance is ludicrous.

      Got it.

      As previously explained, Klopp himself has said this on many occasions, but because you're on the WUM, you conveniently miss that part out, then go on a series of posts filled with nothing but childish rants to try and get a rise.

      On yer bike kid, I have better things to do with my time.
      Swab
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #33: Nov 25, 2019 09:56:08 pm
      Bit touchy there aren't you mate?

      The thread is about why we aren't as strong defensively as last season. You said neither Gomez or Lovren is as good as Matip. I was agreeing with you about Lovren, but not Gomez. No need to throw a strop.

      No strops here fella, just amazed you took that from my post when I said no such thing.

      Read it again, and this time, note the (yet) in brackets. The implication being, as has been discussed many, many times, that both need game time to get back to previous levels.
      Swab
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #34: Nov 25, 2019 09:57:47 pm
      I don't think in our current system their job is primarily to defend, if it was they would be held back and not allowed to bomb forward every game, all game. The primary defenders in our system are the two CB's and Fabinho who drops in; it's like people complaining our mid-field is pedestrian and we need more offensive output when it is clear they are there to enable both TAA and Robbo the opportunity to attack. Historically of course the FB's job is to primarily defend, but the manager has rewritten the rule book on this and as such we have the highest offensive output in the fullback position in the world.

      If you think they're job is defend first it might be best to drop the manager a note and let him know how it should be done, cause obviously he didn't get the memo.

      Not forgetting the 2 other mids dropping in behind TAA and Robertson to cover, so actually we have 5 defensive players, and 5 attacking.
      6 if one of the mids pushes up, but that's more usual when a FB stays back - mixing it up a bit to wrongfoot the opposition.

      Apparently, this is very difficult for some to understand.

      Either that or someone is on a WUM and just looking to get a rise.
      rossyred
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #35: Nov 25, 2019 10:06:07 pm
      One thing I think we have struggled a bit with is defending set pieces not corners as such but free kicks when we are such a high line it has been broke on numerous occasions  and not punished as often as it could of been
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #36: Nov 25, 2019 10:09:13 pm
      Well seeing how we have given up 11 goals in 13 league matches i'd say they are defending just fine.

      Well seeing as I definitely used a f**king smiley, I wasn't being that serious!!
      Swab
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #37: Nov 25, 2019 10:15:39 pm
      One thing I think we have struggled a bit with is defending set pieces not corners as such but free kicks when we are such a high line it has been broke on numerous occasions  and not punished as often as it could of been

      If memory serves, it's usually one player not staying in line, and going back too early, which would be an issue with discipline apart from anything else.

      I haven't looked at them all, so might be wrong, but that's how it seems from memory.
      rossyred
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #38: Nov 25, 2019 10:29:57 pm
      If memory serves, it's usually one player not staying in line, and going back too early, which would be an issue with discipline apart from anything else.

      I haven't looked at them all, so might be wrong, but that's how it seems from memory.

      Yes it is Bobby played someone on recently might have  been Sterling not 100% had it down to a fine art I thought last year bar from a couple of hitches but this year seem a little more susceptible
      Billy1
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #39: Nov 26, 2019 12:45:24 am
      I think the time to worry about conceding the odd goal is when we are not scoring goals ourselves.I think if you scrutinise the opposition goals you will find a few of them have come from when the ball has been lost in midfield.One final point ,just carry on getting the 3 points Jurgens REDS and there will be no complaints from me.
      Benito
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #40: Nov 26, 2019 01:39:58 am
      We switch off at set pieces all the time, definitely not as solid as last year, which was a complete Uturn from the year before.
      We also tend to start slowly, and end up playing catch up. I know that means we have a bit more in the tank towards the 80 minute mark which isn’t a coincidence considering all the late goals, but still a concerning trait. Matip back will help for sure, but I don’t think will be the only solution. Agree that Alisson doesn’t seem back to his very best yet, but at the end of the day we’re strolling the league be it with some shaky performances and still have lots of room for improvement. As long as we aren’t dropping points, I don’t think we should give a hoot.
      Breeding-Reds-In-The-434
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #41: Nov 26, 2019 04:51:07 am
      Cant we all stop fighting and just blame Alberto M.......  Oh wait

      :f_whistle: I'll see myself out
      David Wright
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #42: Nov 26, 2019 09:34:26 am
      I will accept the defence has room for improvement, but taking into account, our league position, there is not too much too worry about.
      racerx34
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #43: Nov 26, 2019 09:41:07 am
      Ox wasn’t on the pitch when they scored. Mane was just stood on the corner of the box on our right side, watching as we we’re trying to get the ball back in box and Sterling have a simple pass and Angelino had a free run on to the ball, completely untracked and was able to put the ball across the box.

      Not saying he wasn’t boss, just that it was the one time Mane switched off but he should have seen the run of Angelino...well he did see it, can see him watch him go and not do anything but in that instance I think he was focusing more on the ball breaking to him and neglected his defensive duties.

      But Mane isn’t the only one who switched off, nobody seemed to have a clue Bernardo Silva was lurking at the back.


      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kZIsoA1p9J4

      Ah yeah. That's when Klopp wanted to make a sub and it wasn't done.
      Reckon that's why we weren't 100% switched on.
      The sub then moved Mane and brought Ox on to that side.
      skamp
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #44: Nov 26, 2019 10:01:48 am
      Think there are a few things going on here IMO.

      A lot of teams have copped on to the right side of our defence being the more vulnerable, particularly with Matip being out.  Would you rather attack Robbo & VVD or Trent & Lovren/Gomez?
      Trent does get caught out a lot, especially to the diagonal ball over his head. 

      VVD has not been as commanding as he was last season.  Whether this is down to a natural drop-off due to being so good last season, or he's maybe lording it a bit on the back of all the accolades he's received, I'm not sure.  But he has been caught looking over his shoulder a few times in the area this season at an opposing striker who's scoring.

      Defending free-kicks we've also been more vulnerable.  Against City, they broke the offside trap twice and missed 2 virtual sitters, fortunately for us.  It seems the line we hold and step-up is not as well timed or organised as it was last season.  I think VVD is the man to organise this, so again, he needs to sharpen up here.

      As long as we keep scoring goals, this isn't an issue, but once we hit a lean spell up front, we need the defence/DMs to be right on the money.  I'm sure they will be when the time comes.

      COYR!!!
      heimdall
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #45: Nov 26, 2019 10:22:29 am
      Think there are a few things going on here IMO.

      A lot of teams have copped on to the right side of our defence being the more vulnerable, particularly with Matip being out.  Would you rather attack Robbo & VVD or Trent & Lovren/Gomez?
      Trent does get caught out a lot, especially to the diagonal ball over his head. 

      VVD has not been as commanding as he was last season.  Whether this is down to a natural drop-off due to being so good last season, or he's maybe lording it a bit on the back of all the accolades he's received, I'm not sure.  But he has been caught looking over his shoulder a few times in the area this season at an opposing striker who's scoring.

      Defending free-kicks we've also been more vulnerable.  Against City, they broke the offside trap twice and missed 2 virtual sitters, fortunately for us.  It seems the line we hold and step-up is not as well timed or organised as it was last season.  I think VVD is the man to organise this, so again, he needs to sharpen up here.

      As long as we keep scoring goals, this isn't an issue, but once we hit a lean spell up front, we need the defence/DMs to be right on the money.  I'm sure they will be when the time comes.

      COYR!!!


      I think this could be nail on head, VVD is still a superb defender but he's not quite the superman of last year. I have no problem with trent and Robbo effectively being more winger than FB BUT if that's the case then they need to both start scoring some more goals, and actually its good to see that they have started to do this a bit more.

      Our defence is still very very good, it just needs a little bit of fine tuning.
      fields of anny rd
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #46: Nov 26, 2019 11:00:08 am
      I think this could be nail on head, VVD is still a superb defender but he's not quite the superman of last year. I have no problem with trent and Robbo effectively being more winger than FB BUT if that's the case then they need to both start scoring some more goals, and actually its good to see that they have started to do this a bit more.

      Our defence is still very very good, it just needs a little bit of fine tuning.

      Would be nice to get 3-5 goals a season out of them, but the most creative full backs in the world owe us absolutely nothing more in attack.

      In an attacking sense they are the best at what they do, and it's a joy to watch them do it.
      racerx34
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #47: Nov 26, 2019 11:12:27 am
      I think this could be nail on head, VVD is still a superb defender but he's not quite the superman of last year. I have no problem with trent and Robbo effectively being more winger than FB BUT if that's the case then they need to both start scoring some more goals, and actually its good to see that they have started to do this a bit more.

      Our defence is still very very good, it just needs a little bit of fine tuning.

      Alisson transformed the team at the back last season.
      He was injured for the first eight games of this season.
      Matip was imperious at the back towards the end of last season.
      He's injured now.

      Hopefully we see Matip back soon.
      brezipool
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #48: Nov 26, 2019 11:35:52 am
      I know we're top of the league by 8 points and I know we're enjoying all these late winners.  But, has anyone got any ideas what's happened to our boss defence!?

      https://twitter.com/lfcstats/status/1198954855655718913

      Not worried. we started season with a backup goalie. Then Allison came back, and Matip got Injured. Not its Virgil & Lovren.

      Just been a wee bit too many changes at the back.

      And our full back s are pushing on so much, its leaves us a wee bit vulnerable.

      Were still the 2nd best defense in the league.

      Just imagine when we do start keeping clean sheets again. ;-)

      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Trouble at the back?
      Reply #49: Dec 03, 2019 02:08:40 am
      I don't think there's any more trouble at the back this year than last other than this year teams are taking the chances they're getting against us as opposed to missing them last year. We're not great defensively and haven't been for a very long time - despite what the records say.

      Last season we had 99 shots on target against us over 38 games - 2.6 per game. This season there has been 42 shots on target in 14 games - 3 per game. It's not a major jump in the numbers. We're saving at .714% this season, compared to .778% last season. Again it's not a major difference.  (League only of course)

      For me it really is just a case of teams being that little bit more clinical this year as opposed to last against us, which is why we're facing just slightly more shots per game and not saving quite as many as we did last year. And maybe that is down to teams identifying our, supposed, weaknesses at the back. Maybe it's down to the higher line we're deploying. Maybe it's down to an iffy defensive line on free kicks. Maybe it's down to not having our first choice keeper available for half the campaign. Maybe it's down to simple luck. Maybe it's a combination of some or all of the above.

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