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      Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won

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      Shabs
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #325: May 07, 2021 12:25:32 pm
      Indeed.  Looks like 80% of the Brexit party voters have gone to the Conservatives.

      Not a massive surprise really.  I'm no big fan of Starmer but it's been wall to wall Boris for the past 12 months on TV and this election has come at a pretty decent stage for the Government with vaccines as opposed to coffins being rolled out.

      You really believe the vaccines have been this Government & Johnson’s  saving grace..? Have people forgotten the 120,000 deaths on his watch, or the PPE scandal...?

      Starmer is not a relatable bloke to the social working classes.. he’s a fraud & backed Johnson on majority of his polices...

      Labour needs to rid itself of the right wingers & Blairites & move back to a progressive social party..
      stuey
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #326: May 07, 2021 12:26:02 pm
      Corbyn held Hartlepool twice & with a majority... Blairites have fu**ed Labour with the fake anti semitism smears against Corbyn & the purge of the left & far left..they also cornered Corbyn to become a remainder in the EU when the people wanted out the EU..

      People have spoken & they rejected Blairtes & Starmers Labour..

      Corbyn was a Tory passport to power Shabs, his policies were dated and easily twisted by the elitist scum.
      A perfect example was the anti-Semitism debacle which was allowed to mushroom and eventually envelop him.
      Shabs
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #327: May 07, 2021 12:29:05 pm
      Corbyn was a Tory passport to power Shabs, his policies were dated and easily twisted by the elitist scum.
      A perfect example was the anti-Semitism debacle which was allowed to mushroom and eventually envelop him.

      Brexit cost Corbyn, majority people never fell for the fake anti semitism smear campaign..if Corbyn stood firm against the Blairties on Brexit Labour would be in power..

      His own ministers conspired against him, they didn’t want a Corbyn led Labour government in power..
      JD
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #328: May 07, 2021 12:30:51 pm
      You really believe the vaccines have been this Government & Johnson’s  saving grace..? Have people forgotten the 120,000 deaths on his watch, or the PPE scandal...?

      Yes and yes.  Judging by what people I talk to say.

      People focus on the vaccine roll out and ignore the death toll.  Shelve the bad news and focus on the good news.  And it obviously helps when the government have had about 20 million people on benefits for the past year be it furlough or the various self employed grants.
      Shabs
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #329: May 07, 2021 12:41:11 pm
      Yes and yes.  Judging by what people I talk to say.

      People focus on the vaccine roll out and ignore the death toll.  Shelve the bad news and focus on the good news.  And it obviously helps when the government have had about 20 million people on benefits for the past year be it furlough or the various self employed grants.

      I admit Johnson or the medical advisors got it right with the vaccine rollout but that should not distract us from the negligible acts this Government & PM have done in the build up to the vaccine rollout & the Chancellor be it Rishi or McDonnell would have had no choice but to furlough workers otherwise Stay at Home would never have worked & infections rates would never been have bought under control.
      Swab
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #330: May 07, 2021 01:28:51 pm
      The answer is simple:
      Starmer has spent the last 18 months telling the people who do all the work to f**k off.
      He has undermined and dismissed Local Party choices, and gone back to the Blairite mistake of parachuting in candidates.
      Hardly any people have been out campaigning, doing leaflet drops or actually engaging on the doorstep, because those people have been told they are not wanted in the Party.

      To alienate those who actually win elections by doing the grunt work, was a huge mistake.

      Looking at the number of voters, it's clear that Labour voters stayed home, sending a clear message to the people at the top: Labour cannot win without the help of the Left.
      They never could, and they never will.
      It's that simple.
      So telling them all to f**k off, that they're not wanted was a huge mistake.

      But of course, according to the Blairites who infest the party, and think politics by focus group is the way to win (because it worked once), it's all Corbyn's fault.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #331: May 07, 2021 02:52:22 pm

      Was always gonna be Labour's excuse!!
      stuey
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #332: May 07, 2021 03:21:18 pm
      Brexit cost Corbyn, majority people never fell for the fake anti semitism smear campaign..if Corbyn stood firm against the Blairties on Brexit Labour would be in power..

      His own ministers conspired against him, they didn’t want a Corbyn led Labour government in power..

      There could never be a “Corbyn Labour government”, his outdated policies were branded extreme and his public statements were interpreted in the same vein.

      Let’s wait and see a broader rollout of election results instead of panicking over media mutual masturbation with early Tory victories.
      Shabs
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #333: May 07, 2021 03:57:10 pm
      There could never be a “Corbyn Labour government”, his outdated policies were branded extreme and his public statements were interpreted in the same vein.

      Let’s wait and see a broader rollout of election results instead of panicking over media mutual masturbation with early Tory victories.


      Stuey, which of a Corbyn’s policies were outdated...& by whom...?
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #334: May 07, 2021 04:52:08 pm
      As the norm, SNP doing more than enough in Scotland. I think they might just squeak a majority. But the big question we all want to know - will Salmond return???!
      stuey
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #335: May 07, 2021 05:59:28 pm
      Stuey, which of a Corbyn’s policies were outdated...& by whom...?

      It's water under the bridge now, the party should be looking to the future
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #336: May 07, 2021 06:37:12 pm
      Genuinely bewildered how stupid some people are
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #337: May 07, 2021 06:54:42 pm
      That's one way of looking at it.  Another way is that Corbyn (elected in 2015) increased Labour's share from 35.6% (2015) to 52.5% (2017).

      Either way - Starmer's got it down to just under 29%. 

      I'm politically probably closer to Starmer than Corbyn but I'm far less enthusiastic about voting for him because I don't think his government would change things much from the status quo.  At least you knew with Corbyn that he wanted public ownership of transport, higher minimum wage, higher tax on millionaires etc.  Don't think most people see much difference between a Con goverment and a Lab government at the minute.

      Fair enough JD.

      Doesn't get away from the fact that he still lost against a dead duck PM in Theresa May (and that the Tories continued to make major inroads in the Red Wall type seats that set the foundation for Johnson's smash and grab of those seats in 2019). But it's hard to put the 2017 election into context. Even the SNP underperformed and lost seats, the one election where they can say they had a poor night (by their standards).

      Question is, should Starmer resign on today's results?
      Shabs
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #338: May 07, 2021 08:28:14 pm
      It's water under the bridge now, the party should be looking to the future

      😂 👍🏼
      tezmac
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #339: May 07, 2021 09:23:31 pm
      Depressing day for Labour again but with the slim ball leader we have....
      JD
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #340: May 07, 2021 09:26:38 pm
      Depressing day for Labour again but with the slim ball leader we have....

      In England at least.

      Interesting that all 3 respective governing parties have done well in England, Scotland and Wales. Covid bounce I suspect.

      And more evidence of a rapidly disunited kingdom. At least three if not four independent  countries in my lifetime.
      EarnedIt6Times
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #341: May 07, 2021 10:34:55 pm
      Labour seem in general to have lost touch, with the ordinary working man in the street

      The 'ordinary working man on the street' is rapidly losing touch with himself never mind losing touch with the Labour Party

      If they're daft enough to vote for the party that has been f**king them over for centuries, they deserve what's coming to them: f**k all
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #342: May 07, 2021 10:50:32 pm
      The 'ordinary working man on the street' is rapidly losing touch with himself never mind losing touch with the Labour Party

      If they're daft enough to vote for the party that has been f**king them over for centuries, they deserve what's coming to them: f**k all

      Labour are still by some distance the only party that represents the 'working man'.

      I suppose the nub of the issue is that the 'working man' sees Labour as more active on identity issues and championing the marching educated classes (basically half of twitter) than spending their energies in talking directly to working class communities.

      I saw Prof John Curtice on BBC earlier saying they've basically got two options. Either consolidate the electorate they have now - ie socially liberal middle classes that caters to their Bristol/London cabal or change tack to reach back into old, run down working towns. It'll be tough to fuse those two strands back together.
      stuey
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #343: May 07, 2021 10:54:26 pm
      Labour are still by some distance the only party that represents the 'working man'.

      I suppose the nub of the issue is that the 'working man' sees Labour as more active on identity issues and championing the marching educated classes (basically half of twitter) than spending their energies in talking directly to working class communities.

      I saw Prof John Curtice on BBC earlier saying they've basically got two options. Either consolidate the electorate they have now - ie socially liberal middle classes that caters to their Bristol/London cabal or change tack to reach back into old, run down working towns. It'll be tough to fuse those two strands back together.

      The last paragraph is a total misrepresentation.
      srslfc
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #344: May 07, 2021 11:06:19 pm
      In England at least.

      Interesting that all 3 respective governing parties have done well in England, Scotland and Wales. Covid bounce I suspect.

      And more evidence of a rapidly disunited kingdom. At least three if not four independent  countries in my lifetime.

      The Union as we know it is going to end sooner than later I would imagine.

      You only have to look at the noises coming from over here in NI. Unionists are so fearful to even talk about what might happen in a UI that the thought of it being inevitable hasn't even crossed their minds.

      I've had this conversation briefly with my Dad, I come from a 'Unionist' background if you like, and he cannot even entertain the thought that the Union might be going. I'm pretty sure in my lifetime the United Kingdom will be no longer and some sort of United Ireland and independent Scotland will be a reality.

      EarnedIt6Times
      • Forum John Toshack
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #345: May 08, 2021 12:28:36 am
      Labour are still by some distance the only party that represents the 'working man'.

      I suppose the nub of the issue is that the 'working man' sees Labour as more active on identity issues and championing the marching educated classes (basically half of twitter) than spending their energies in talking directly to working class communities.

      I saw Prof John Curtice on BBC earlier saying they've basically got two options. Either consolidate the electorate they have now - ie socially liberal middle classes that caters to their Bristol/London cabal or change tack to reach back into old, run down working towns. It'll be tough to fuse those two strands back together.

      I'd say impossible rather than 'tough'. I think Labour is done for a generation and may never come back. Actually I think their biggest problem is most of their Scottish vote has gone to the SNP, which has made Labour effectively unelectable. They will never have the numbers now.

      Very simplistic but yes those are the two oft-used strands to Labour's English vote, though the more urban areas like Liverpool and Manc probably sit as near to London as they do to places like Hartlepool. Maybe it's that sort of urban cunning from growing up in a city. Stupidity isn't an option. You have to think on your feet to survive and prosper; spot lies before they have even emanated from a Tory's gob.

      As someone who represents both strands, born on Merseyside and lived on a council estate with Europe's worst heroin addiction rate, but somehow ended up in a good job and part of the London cabal as you call it, I find myself caring less and less about the plight of the working class the more they act against their own interests. I mean, voting for the Tories as a form of protest vote? What sort of fuckwittery is that? It's Stockholm Syndrome.

      I've never felt like this until the last 4 or 5 years.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #346: May 08, 2021 12:34:04 pm
      I'd say impossible rather than 'tough'. I think Labour is done for a generation and may never come back. Actually I think their biggest problem is most of their Scottish vote has gone to the SNP, which has made Labour effectively unelectable. They will never have the numbers now.

      Very simplistic but yes those are the two oft-used strands to Labour's English vote, though the more urban areas like Liverpool and Manc probably sit as near to London as they do to places like Hartlepool. Maybe it's that sort of urban cunning from growing up in a city. Stupidity isn't an option. You have to think on your feet to survive and prosper; spot lies before they have even emanated from a Tory's gob.

      As someone who represents both strands, born on Merseyside and lived on a council estate with Europe's worst heroin addiction rate, but somehow ended up in a good job and part of the London cabal as you call it, I find myself caring less and less about the plight of the working class the more they act against their own interests. I mean, voting for the Tories as a form of protest vote? What sort of fuckwittery is that? It's Stockholm Syndrome.

      I've never felt like this until the last 4 or 5 years.

      Yeah, without Scotland Labour are a three legged dog.

      I'm astonished that Labour haven't actually focused more on the constitutional element. They started devolution and so they should seek to finish it.

      But then the Tories came in and introduced these metro mayors (on top of London's own unique devolved settlement) that means we have a UK that is constitutionally wonky and inconsistent. Labour would also gain some pride back if it went all out for PR. They could put to bed this ridiculous situation where the FPTP system is furthering such divides and inconsistencies. But what is Starmer saying about this? Nothing.

      New Labour's failure to push through and explore PR as a serious option is their biggest failing. But of course when the system handed over stonking majorities to Labour in 97 and 2001 they all of a sudden became very fond of FPTP.
      EarnedIt6Times
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #347: May 09, 2021 12:11:53 am
      Yeah, without Scotland Labour are a three legged dog.

      I'm astonished that Labour haven't actually focused more on the constitutional element. They started devolution and so they should seek to finish it.

      But then the Tories came in and introduced these metro mayors (on top of London's own unique devolved settlement) that means we have a UK that is constitutionally wonky and inconsistent. Labour would also gain some pride back if it went all out for PR. They could put to bed this ridiculous situation where the FPTP system is furthering such divides and inconsistencies. But what is Starmer saying about this? Nothing.

      New Labour's failure to push through and explore PR as a serious option is their biggest failing. But of course when the system handed over stonking majorities to Labour in 97 and 2001 they all of a sudden became very fond of FPTP.

      Agree with pretty much all of that.

      I guess they never saw the SNP coming. I don't even think the SNP saw the SNP coming. Instead of working with the SNP, Labour are slitting their own throats in Scotland trying to take them on. Seen reports today of Labour voters voting for the Tories so the Tories could win Dumbarton I think it was, which they did, so Labour voters won a seat for the Tories. Absolutely beggars belief.
      Isaac!
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #348: May 09, 2021 12:26:32 am
      I thought Aaron Bastani of Novari media said it best: This is paraphrasing so no quotes: Labour knew they had pissed in the bath, but instead of trying to remedy it they chose to sh*t in it and vomit in it and continue to try to wash themselves clean. Admission: I'm not only paraphrasing, I'm decorating it - but with a sympathetic  tone. I love Novari media and you should all watch it!
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Post 2020 General Election - Conservatives won
      Reply #349: May 09, 2021 12:36:00 am
      Agree with pretty much all of that.

      I guess they never saw the SNP coming. I don't even think the SNP saw the SNP coming. Instead of working with the SNP, Labour are slitting their own throats in Scotland trying to take them on. Seen reports today of Labour voters voting for the Tories so the Tories could win Dumbarton I think it was, which they did, so Labour voters won a seat for the Tories. Absolutely beggars belief.

      I don't think Labour should consider that. They are better than that in my opinion. SNP's victory is one of style over substance. Sturgeon is a great communicator - the best in the business. Direct, clear, you know where she stands. She alone, along with Salmond, has totally changed public discourse in Scotland. She communicates authority, control and strength. No wonder half the country have voted for them.

      But their governing record is not nearly as impressive as their talk. Education standards are now so poor that the SNP are stealthily removing Scotland from international surveys so not to shine a light on such shocking declines (she'd do well to move John Swinney out of the education brief and bring in someone new on that). Drugs deaths are on the rise, three times worse than anywhere else in the UK and the worst in Europe. And perhaps most stark of all, a complete failure to tackle child poverty. But that doesn't really matter when you've got an opposition that is so poor. Douglas Ross, the Tory leader in Scotland, is just pitiful and thinks all he needs to do is bang on about Sturgeon holding an 'illegal referendum' (which she isn't going to do anyway). Anas Sarwar had a decent campaign in communicating Labour's policies but in holding the SNP to account? Non existent. Similar to when Blair had it easy against a lineup of sorry opposition Tory leaders in the 90s and 00s, Sturgeon has it easy facing down an opposition that is muppet like. With opponents like that, no wonder she's so keen on holding a second indy ref as soon as possible!
      « Last Edit: May 09, 2021 12:50:16 am by Frankly, Mr Shankly »

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