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      Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)

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      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #250: Apr 08, 2020 12:31:40 pm
      250 employees mate.

      The top bods look at overview, strategy etc

      Lower down, there's other people to look after those 250 people, their hours, employment contracts, admin etc

      How many Directors of such a huge organisation do you know who get involved with that stuff?

      Worst case is Moore signed off on it, without really thinking it through.

      Not trying to excuse anyone here, as far as I'm concerned, they have a collective responsibility, but it's telling that Moore was the one who apologised.

      Ticket prices are a different matter entirely.

      John Henry isn't sat in Boston thinking about the ground staffs wages, and how to save what amounts to (for him) pennies.
      That's all I'm saying.

      No excuses, no passing the buck, it's just to me, this isn't a Director level matter.

      From experience I know how some junior managers think; "OK, the government pay 80% of their wages, we'll pay the other 20%, everyone's happy."
      If Moore signed off on it, that's the f**k up right there.

      Yeah, I know I've probably thought about this too much, but it's lockdown and I'm f**king bored.

      Can't agree. A decision like this would come from the ceo and ratified by fsg.
      Swab
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #251: Apr 08, 2020 12:37:14 pm
      Can't agree. A decision like this would come from the ceo and ratified by fsg.

      Moore is the CEO.

      Like I said, if he signed off on it, that's the f**k up right there.

      But I don't think that a CEO running a business as large as Liverpool FC micro-manages to that degree.
      If he did, he'd never sleep.
      The sheer volume of paperwork crossing his desk would be enormous.

      Even an SME like I ran generates a huge amount of paperwork, and if you don't delegate it, you'd never leave the office.
      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #252: Apr 08, 2020 12:58:39 pm
      Moore is the CEO.

      Like I said, if he signed off on it, that's the f**k up right there.

      But I don't think that a CEO running a business as large as Liverpool FC micro-manages to that degree.
      If he did, he'd never sleep.
      The sheer volume of paperwork crossing his desk would be enormous.

      Even an SME like I ran generates a huge amount of paperwork, and if you don't delegate it, you'd never leave the office.

      The nature of the decision would be done at an executive level. It's not to say that people below him had discussed it but I find it hard to believe the buck didn't stop with him. The decision to close my office couldn't be taken by our coo until it get okayed by some Whitehall mandarin
      GERNS
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #253: Apr 08, 2020 12:59:14 pm
      Nah is it f**k, they wore out that goodwill sh*te after the £77 ticket fiasco, I'm sick of seeing the PR sh*te like This Means More and all that family crap from them. What's worse is the gullible section of our support who swallow their PR sh*te whole because they supposedly saved the club!!

      End of the day Huyton, Business is business. Not sure if you do, or ever have run your own business, or have been instrumental in helping run someone else's business, but figures and spreadsheets are a very cold aspect of it all, with very little compassion. It's all about the bottom line, and it's your job to make that as big as possible.  Start being compassionate, and making continued losses, BOOM, end of business, and no job !
      Surely, suuuuurly you understand that. Once you get past the emotion of the game, the love of your club, or the love of the players. The passion of the crowd, the goals the celebrations, the trophies etc. Its a numbers game, whichever way you turn it, PROFIT is the name of the game, not CHARITY.

      Regardless of what has gone before, the club is in a good place at the mo, and the people who are responsible for that, are the people in their respective current positions within.
      You need to enjoy what we have got, and how good it can get, even though the road to success doesn't seem to sit right with you at the moment.
      Swab
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #254: Apr 08, 2020 01:23:17 pm
      The nature of the decision would be done at an executive level. It's not to say that people below him had discussed it but I find it hard to believe the buck didn't stop with him. The decision to close my office couldn't be taken by our coo until it get okayed by some Whitehall mandarin

      Government depts are run completely differently though mate.

      Liverpool is run as a business in it's own right.
      NESN (or FSG) is the umbrella company.
      Moore, as the CEO makes executive decisions, with transfers and player wages/contracts being dealt with at a high level.
      Under the CEO (Moore) come the department managers, who make decisions regarding their area.
      There's no point employing those people if you don't allow them to do their jobs, plus micro-managing is a very inefficient use of a CEO's time.
      So some junior bod, looks at the government rules and advice on lockdown, thinking "there's no bugger here, why do we need the cooks for the players canteen coming in." or the tea lady, or most of the back of house staff etc etc
      He decides to use the government furlough program, authorises it, then passes it up the line.

      That's how it works.

      I'm not arguing this; it's just a fact of how businesses run when they are that size.

      £600 million (near enough) turnover, Moore isn't interested in the tea ladies wages.

      Now if you're saying they should be taking notice of how decisions affect lower level employees, then I'd agree, but at the same time, a CEO can only do so much before getting swamped and becoming ineffective.
      FL Red
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #255: Apr 08, 2020 02:10:36 pm
      There's literally no way at all that FSG weren't informed of this decision if they didn't make it themselves. And if they didn't stop for a second to think about how it would be received, then that's just as bad and shows how clueless they are. And if it was "only" a decision made by Moore, then he's an idiot and doesn't understand the club very well.
      fields of anny rd
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #256: Apr 08, 2020 03:03:05 pm
      Liverpool had not planned to make an announcement on Saturday afternoon regarding their controversial decision to utilise the UK government’s Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme. “Our hand was forced,” one senior club source told The Athletic.

      The Anfield hierarchy believe details were leaked by another Premier League club after what Liverpool understood to be confidential discussions involving top-flight sides about how they intended to handle the effects of the pandemic.

      Liverpool’s plan was to wait until Monday to release their statement to ensure that every impacted employee was made aware by the club directly via letter before any public announcement was made.

      Little did owners Fenway Sports Group know that the publication of a hastily constructed statement on the club website confirming that some non-playing staff had been placed on furlough would trigger a furious backlash that culminated 48 hours later in a dramatic U-turn and public apology.

      In an open letter to supporters on Monday, chief executive Peter Moore said the club was “truly sorry” for coming to the “wrong conclusion” after initially deciding to furlough about 200 employees. Liverpool will no longer seek taxpayers’ money to cover 80 per cent of the wages of staff who are currently unable to work with no matches going on. They would have been claiming about £500,000 per month.

      The Athletic understands principal owner John W Henry, chairman Tom Werner (both pictured top) and FSG president Mike Gordon were “shocked” by the torrent of criticism and stung by what they regard as unfair accusations of greed. During a series of conference calls on Monday, they were in full agreement that back-tracking was the best solution to limiting the damage caused by the fallout.

      Gordon, who is FSG’s second biggest shareholder after Henry, runs Liverpool on a day-to-day basis and is a popular figure at both Melwod and in the club’s Chapel Street offices. The Milwaukee-born businessman, who divides his time between Merseyside and FSG’s home in Boston, has the final word on everything from sanctioning transfer deals to making senior executive appointments.

      Managing director Billy Hogan and Moore answer to him and the trio spoke extensively before the initial decision to furlough was taken last week. From a business perspective, they all felt it was crucial to help ease the current cash-flow issues. All revenue streams have dried up in the current crisis but overheads remain huge and even for a club the size of Liverpool that’s a major headache.

      As well as an annual wage bill of £310 million, there are payments on previous transfers due in the coming months. There’s uncertainty over whether TV money will need to be repaid and if the next instalments from global sponsors will be forthcoming given that with no games being played Liverpool are currently unable to fulfil their side of the bargain.

      The Athletic has reported there are significant fears that Premier League sides may yet need to repay £762 million to broadcasters should the 2019-20 season not be completed, while the determination to finish the campaign even led to one idea of taking games to China.

      The collective commitment to find a way to complete the Premier League season when it’s safe to do so is good news for Liverpool, with Jürgen Klopp’s side on the brink of sealing the title. However, just when football will return remains unclear. Mid-to-late June, with matches initially played behind closed doors, is currently regarded as the most optimistic scenario. Meanwhile, the financial toll will keep growing.

      Liverpool’s latest accounts may have shown a pre-tax profit of £42 million but FSG insists those figures are almost a year old and all money generated is reinvested into the club as it constantly looks to balance the books.

      There has been no public announcement but The Athletic understands more than a dozen executive staff, including Hogan, Moore and chief operating officer Andy Hughes, voluntarily took a 25 per cent pay cut last week. It was kept quiet as they didn’t want to place the players in a difficult situation as their own discussions over wage reductions continue.

      As a major UK taxpayer and one of the biggest employers in the city with a staff of around 800, FSG felt it was entitled to utilise the coronavirus fund to help safeguard jobs.

      Bigger companies than Liverpool FC have turned to the government for help and they currently have hundreds of operational, hospitality and catering staff who have no work to do in the continued absence of Premier League football.

      Liverpool had already promised to cover the wages of casual Anfield match-day staff for the postponed games in April, which will cost them about £250,000 per match.

      The club hierarchy believed criticism of their furlough decision would be mitigated by the fact that, unlike Tottenham Hotspur, they would be topping up the 80 per cent coming from the government with the remaining 20 per cent to ensure that no employee would be left out of pocket.

      They were wrong. And the backlash over the weekend was so toxic that The Athletic understands a number of other Premier League clubs who had intended to announce the furloughing of staff have since decided to shelve those plans.

      “That kind of thing was almost expected of Daniel Levy and Mike Ashley but you don’t expect Liverpool to go down that same route,” one Liverpool staff member, who asked to remain anonymous, told The Athletic.

      “We’re always told we’re part of a family here and that working for Liverpool is different. ‘This means more’ is the marketing slogan. Surely part of that is looking after your own rather than taking government money which would be better spent elsewhere with so many businesses struggling?”


      Former Liverpool players including Jamie Carragher and Stan Collymore led the fierce criticism on social media and as one FSG executive in Boston admitted “the bullets really started flying”.

      The fact that it became national headline news with government ministers wading into the debate as Liverpool took a battering led to a series of urgent trans-Atlantic calls and a swift rethink. It had been a decision driven by data but the emotion it triggered hadn’t been properly considered.

      Influential supporters’ union Spirit Of Shankly (SOS) submitted an open letter to Moore via email on Sunday afternoon demanding a full explanation and expressing concern for “the damage this is causing to our club’s reputation and values”.

      On Monday, Moore and Tony Barrett, Liverpool’s head of club and supporter engagement, conducted a series of phone discussions with respected figures in the community. Feedback was collated and then presented to Gordon. There were three separate conversations with Joe Blott, the chair of SOS.

      “It wasn’t clear at that stage that the decision would be reversed but I genuinely felt they were listening,” Blott tells The Athletic. “They wanted to gauge where the fanbase was on this. We told them it went right to the heart of the values of the club. I’m thankful we got to this position in the end but it all could have been avoided if supporters had been involved from an early stage.”

      Moore also rang the Mayor of Liverpool Joe Anderson and the region’s Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram as well as local MPs Ian Byrne and Dan Carden. Byrne, a lifelong Liverpool fan, tells The Athletic: “Peter asked me what I thought and I told him that I’m in favour of using furlough if it means retaining jobs, as the overriding priority has to be that staff members get paid.

      “Everyone was delighted when British Airways went into furlough as it saved jobs but the reality is that football gets judged by a different set of rules. With football clubs, there is a moral side to this.

      “If Liverpool were saying, ‘We’re going to furlough for three months, we’re going to get X amount from the government and then we’re going to pay it back further down the line’ — that’s a different argument. The shame for me was that this decision has overshadowed a lot of the great work the club is doing in the local community at this difficult time.

      “Football is an easy target for the government and some people are always looking for a reason to give Liverpool a knock. The club gave them an open goal on this one. It’s caused some damage but they’ve done the right thing in the end.”

      Manchester City and Manchester United subsequently announced they would not be furloughing staff.

      Having assessed all the feedback from Merseyside and done plenty of soul-searching, Gordon sanctioned the U-turn on Monday afternoon as he concluded there had been “a misjudgment” which needed to be reversed. He fed back to Henry and Werner. It was decided that Moore would write an open letter to fans.

      There are parallels with February 2016, when FSG scrapped plans to increase ticket prices after 10,000 supporters walked out of Anfield in protest during a game against Sunderland.

      On Monday, Moore wrote that Liverpool would find “alternative means” to cover wages rather than furlough during this “unprecedented period”. In the short-term that means dipping into cash reserves but concerns within the club about the impact of this crisis going forward are genuine and growing.

      A glaring mistake has been rectified and the damage done has been reduced if not erased.

      It’s a fine line between running Liverpool FC as a business and embracing the principles and values that the club’s supporters hold dear. After a torrid 48 hours, FSG acknowledged they fell on the wrong side of it..

      https://theathletic.com/1721466/2020/04/07/liverpool-furlough-leak-u-turn/
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #257: Apr 08, 2020 03:26:59 pm
      Looks like Jim in HR has still got a job.
      Keith Singleton
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #258: Apr 08, 2020 03:57:46 pm

      Yes, your point?
      Swab
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #259: Apr 08, 2020 05:22:58 pm
      Looks like Jim in HR has still got a job.

      He would never have lost it.

      THAT statement is the spin, taking responsibility for a decision taken down the chain, which backfired.

      "The Athletic understands"

      "A senior club source"

      The only bit that rings true is that they were "shocked".

      Fair play to them for taking it on the chin though.
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #260: Apr 08, 2020 07:12:04 pm
      He would never have lost it.

      THAT statement is the spin, taking responsibility for a decision taken down the chain, which backfired.

      "The Athletic understands"

      "A senior club source"

      The only bit that rings true is that they were "shocked".

      Fair play to them for taking it on the chin though.

      To be fair, unless you are actually in some sort of position at the club, nobody knows exactly who made the decision.
      The fact that every report is down as the hierarchy, probably holds a bit more weight than some random bloke on a forum...no offence with that at all because you could well be right but ultimately nobody outside of the club will actually know.
      FL Red
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #261: Apr 08, 2020 07:23:33 pm
      To be fair, unless you are actually in some sort of position at the club, nobody knows exactly who made the decision.
      The fact that every report is down as the hierarchy, probably holds a bit more weight than some random bloke on a forum...no offence with that at all because you could well be right but ultimately nobody outside of the club will actually know.

      Looks like Blott was quoted...I mean that's a verifiable source and it mentions him talking with Barrett and Moore. Also sources an MP as well that spoke with Moore.  Sounds pretty cut and dry to me. A journalist would be taking a huge chance writing an article with false sources and revealing what was revealed about the club unless they were pretty sure it was true. Don't see any reason to think that FSG and the rest of the big wigs knew exactly what was going on.

      The fact that they were shocked is kind of funny to me and just goes to show that they still don't quite understand the city or the people that support the club.
      Swab
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #262: Apr 08, 2020 08:06:14 pm
      To be fair, unless you are actually in some sort of position at the club, nobody knows exactly who made the decision.
      The fact that every report is down as the hierarchy, probably holds a bit more weight than some random bloke on a forum...no offence with that at all because you could well be right but ultimately nobody outside of the club will actually know.

      Oh I understand that, and it's just how I see it.

      I have no problem if people see it differently.

      It's one thing that pisses me off about football, and big business in general; everything is spin, "sources" are quoted but we never know who they are, the reporter "understands" but is always opaque, and all that political sh*te.
      99 times out of a 100 it's about protecting someone who made a f**k up or someone's reputation.
      IMO a good leader protects their staff.
      A bad one throws them to the wolves.
      I see this as the top bods taking it on the chin to protect staff and to enhance their "we really do listen" spin.

      There's really no need for it, but it's become ingrained now and I'm just going to have to live with it.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #263: Apr 09, 2020 08:53:12 pm
      Quote from David Wright
      The fans rightly so made a stand against the owners when they tried to raise the ticket prices to £77. Who knows what the price of the tickets would have been by now !

      We know what the prices are now, approx double that amount, except they're called "hospitality tickets".

      They wanted to increase the price of 200 tickets per home game for tourists with long pockets, who otherwise would be forking out for hospitality tickets. The proposed increase was not designed for the vast majority, and regular matchgoers would be unaffected.

      What we got was those same tourists forking out for hospitality tickets, and every home league game costing the same for the rest of us, regardless whether it's against Spurs or Sheffield United, and the set requirement of 4 home games from the previous season to have the opportunity to attend certain games in the current season. That was the result of the "message received". Some said it was a win. I said it was the equivalent of handing us a fiver and taking a tenner back, and I stand by that.

      There's always a catch dealing with this lot, as there will be with this. Just when you think they're running the show properly, they throw a curveball in to show us again that, like American owners at every club, they don't understand football, and they don't understand us either. The truth is, without Jürgen, we would probably still be hoping to make the top 4 as we have since well, pick any year you like. And as regards winning European Cups...

      Look at the letter issued in this case. It starts out as a kick the open door statement about the Health Services. It later becomes a rant about the lack of activity and revenue during the close season. Well guess what lads, every football club in the UK and indeed abroad, has the same problem. How they all deal with it will sort out the professional owners from the amateurs.
      Dadorious
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #264: Apr 09, 2020 11:17:37 pm
      Has Paul Tomkins got his tongue out of Gordon’s ass yet? I’ll wait for the next article of how furloughing club staff “makes absolutely NO sense”.
      Boston not la
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #265: Apr 11, 2020 04:26:29 pm
      I'm not sure it's a wise argument for you to get into about whether Liverpool as a city or a club is inherently socialist.. especially just to defend your countrymen

      As FOAR says
       

      FFS, read the second post in this thread as far as me defending them.My argument is  when was the club socialist? i get the city,the people,and that certain folks within the club are socialist but the club itself? Kinda related i saw a gofund me page for the staff at Carraghers pub in NYC.That doesn't seem right,after he jumped in on fsg ? https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-carraghers-pub-amp-restaurant-staff
      Kopite78
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #266: Apr 11, 2020 04:47:01 pm
       

      FFS, read the second post in this thread as far as me defending them.My argument is  when was the club socialist? i get the city,the people,and that certain folks within the club are socialist but the club itself? Kinda related i saw a gofund me page for the staff at Carraghers pub in NYC.That doesn't seem right,after he jumped in on fsg ? https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-carraghers-pub-amp-restaurant-staff

      You know Carra doesn't own that bar right? Has f**k all to do with it?

      😬😂
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #267: Apr 11, 2020 04:54:09 pm
      Kinda related i saw a gofund me page for the staff at Carraghers pub in NYC.That doesn't seem right,after he jumped in on fsg ?

      Not related at all, he has nothing to do with that bar in anyway. The owner is just a Liverpool supporter who called it that.
      Boston not la
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #268: Apr 11, 2020 04:56:23 pm
      You know Carra doesn't own that bar right? Has f**k all to do with it?

      😬😂
         

      No i didn't,won't be going there any time soon so not that arsed either just making a bit of convo but f**k it.

      Kopite78
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      Re: Club Furlough Staff (Now Reversed)
      Reply #269: Apr 11, 2020 04:57:51 pm
         

      No i didn't,won't be going there any time soon so not that arsed either just making a bit of convo but f**k it.

      🤭

      Ok.. nice one

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