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      VAR has to go

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      king kenny
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #150: Nov 30, 2020 04:21:50 pm
      The thing is VAR are obsessed with certain thing the line and armpits with off side at the strikers end but not too bothered about the line at the point of contact of the ball.  The shots i have seen it is some instances feet away from the point of contact.   Like Jürgen said last year draw the lines a little thicker and it will be come much more fairer. 

      The problem  is VAR was bought in to eliminate the clear and obvious errors these lot have made a farce of it.  First thing first no matter how good VAR is it has eliminated a lot of excitement out of the game.   Anyone sensible would have bought it in phases but not these lot they are basically changing rules constantly.  There has been more adjustment to the game since VAR has come which what 18 months than there has been in a 100 years.   

      First Penalty the player has moved away from the ball in a different direction to win the penalty.  the player should be making a genuine attempt to go for the ball and not for the trailing leg.  Slow motion shows that but these lot don't wantto watch that in slow motion they are obsessed with contact and protractors.   If you are going to take advantage of the technology then watch slow motion pictures of the first penalty and the penalty of Kane against brighton when he looks at him twice and then sees he's got his eyes fixated on the ball and cheats a penalty them things can be seen in slow motion.    These lot don't have a clue of how to use the technology.   
      chats
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #151: Nov 30, 2020 09:53:33 pm
      Drawing line for 5 minutes again to rule out a Villa equaliser.

      Grim.
      noggin
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #152: Nov 30, 2020 09:59:17 pm
      Absolute joke , sucking the life out of football.
      lfc across the water
      • Needs a Klopp hug...Rafa's Number 1 fan...VAR has no faults Promoter
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #153: Dec 01, 2020 03:56:16 pm
      Quote from Scotia
      VAR is, because of the appalling way it's being used making football an entirely non contact sport.

      Contact is not outlawed in the laws of the game.

      The 2nd penalty on Saturday is a clear case in point.......yes Robbo made contact with Wellbeck BUT it had zero impact on the game and I dont think its even a foul......its a coming together.

      If Robbo won the ball first, he could argue his case about the contact. He didn't win the ball and kicked the opponents foot. Under the laws of the game, that's a foul unfortunately. Of course it had an impact on the game, if Robbo wins that ball first, it reaches the halfway line.

      Quote from WeAreMenOfShanklysBest
      Fed up with it. Again on Saturday I didn’t celebrate or cheer any of the 3 times we hit the net because I feared they’d be ruled out. I was right on two occasions.

      As for the penalty at the end, he kicks him but not a single Brighton player even asked for a penalty. Some nerd who’s never kicked a ball in his life went looking for a penalty to give and found it. Nothing clear and obvious about a foul that the opposition didn’t even appeal for.

      I celebrated on all 3 occasions as they all looked fine until we saw the replays. There was no danger of the goal that counted scored being disallowed. Once the goal is valid, there's no problem.

      They don't have to appeal for it. It will be checked whether 1 player appeals or all 11 do. What happened is so obviously a penalty, that the ref would probably not even have to check it himself last year. This season, one look is all he needed.

      Quote from ruthcity
      To me, having an on-the-spot refereeing error is more bearable than someone in a room determining a 50/50 foul or offside into any outcome they like (assuming they go on making decisions unexplained). In those vague situations, they can rule whichever way they like and get away with it (due to non-accountability to fans).

      It is not bearable to me. Every other sport has ref technology. Football needs it just as much if not more, given how popular it is, to help keep the cheats and the howlers out. A wrong decision is a wrong decision, there's no way to dress it up, if it's cost me/us points and/or prizes.

      Referees have assessors, VAR refs have assessors, all the communications between them are recorded, and those who make indefensible howlers are demoted. Referees who get a major decision wrong in a major tournament will be immediately sent home. The ref who allowed the Maradona handball  goal in the WC, was promptly banned for life. So they can't just do what they want. There has to be a genuine reason based on the events in the game.

      Quote from brezipool
      mane was offside, was gutting, but it was pretty clear.

      these offsides where its a feckin toenail or an armpit, need to go, it should be advantage to the strikers.

      think it holland? thats brought in fat lines on the var, to allow for real speed of play, I mean ffs, how is a player supposed to know when hes running full pelt hes went a milisecond too soon. ;D.

      Just needs tweaked to have a tolerance, theyre trying to be to exact.

      It's supposed to be exact, or as near to exact as possible. It's certainly much more reliable than putting a flag up, only to discover it wasn't even a close call, let alone a tight one.

      I never believed that forwards got the benefit of the doubt. I don't think I ever saw one who did. Before VAR, I always suspected the default position was, "if in doubt put the flag up". Now we see that forwards really don't get the benefit of the doubt, so it's the forwards responsibility to ensure he's onside. Because if he isn't, he will be spotted and his effort will be disallowed.

      You can gain an advantage and score with your toe, foot, ankle, leg, knee, chest, side, shoulder, head, or upper arm. That's why they are all checked. Clear and obvious does not apply to offside calls, FIFA say it is to be operated on a zero tolerance basis. So it is. Millimetres matter when the points are added up in May.

      Quote from king kenny
      The thing is VAR are obsessed with certain thing the line and armpits with off side at the strikers end but not too bothered about the line at the point of contact of the ball.  The shots i have seen it is some instances feet away from the point of contact.   Like Jürgen said last year draw the lines a little thicker and it will be come much more fairer. 

      The problem  is VAR was bought in to eliminate the clear and obvious errors these lot have made a farce of it.  First thing first no matter how good VAR is it has eliminated a lot of excitement out of the game.   Anyone sensible would have bought it in phases but not these lot they are basically changing rules constantly.  There has been more adjustment to the game since VAR has come which what 18 months than there has been in a 100 years.   

      First Penalty the player has moved away from the ball in a different direction to win the penalty.  the player should be making a genuine attempt to go for the ball and not for the trailing leg.  Slow motion shows that but these lot don't wantto watch that in slow motion they are obsessed with contact and protractors.   If you are going to take advantage of the technology then watch slow motion pictures of the first penalty and the penalty of Kane against brighton when he looks at him twice and then sees he's got his eyes fixated on the ball and cheats a penalty them things can be seen in slow motion.   

      That was not cheating. You can argue about what happened in the build up, but the video shows he was brought down from behind in the box. Penalty.

      VAR does not recognise excitement or emotion. It's a tool for the neutral ref to correct a wrong decision. Refereeing is not a glamorous job, it is a thankless task. They don't score goals, make saves, or send free kicks into the top corner from 30 yards. But without them, there's no game. VAR or no VAR, all decisions made by officials are deemed provisional until play resumes.
      rossyred
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #154: Dec 01, 2020 06:14:26 pm
      Mark Halse says Attwell broke IFAB protocol by watching the replay of the penalty in slow motion and should be watched in real time ??
      LFCexiled
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #155: Dec 01, 2020 09:59:50 pm
      Posted this in the match thread, more appropriate for here like.

      That's how VAR should be done, apart from that one against neco towards the end that was dubious there were NO stupid f**king lines, NO pitch side screen viewings and more importantly the game flowed because it wasn't getting stopped every time somebody farted.

      Sort it f**king out.
      lfc across the water
      • Needs a Klopp hug...Rafa's Number 1 fan...VAR has no faults Promoter
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #156: Jan 07, 2021 08:46:40 pm
      Quote from bazspeedman
      It should be the same as with rugby with the VAR team consulting with the ref, both watching the replay on screen, the ref giving his opinion on the action to take and the VAR team giving the final decision.

      It's really not that complicated if they use some common f**king sense with this.

      That is what happens, we just don't hear what is said at the time. When we find out months or even years later, everything they said during a review, makes sense.

      Quote from HamannsTheMan
      People go the match and watch a game of football. They go the pub afterwards and part of the post match debate is the referee performance. ‘F**k me the ref was sh*te today’ or even the ref had a good game.  It’s been that way for 200 years.

      Var was brought in after huge campaigns for it - But it should never have been brought into the game. Football is the best sport in the world for many reasons but the controversy, the pace of the game, human error are all reasons why.

      VAR was brought in because it's essential. English refs need it, in order to referee with it in Europe. We need it so that justice is done on a football pitch, there and then, so every result of the 380 league games played in the season, accurately reflects events on the pitch on the day.

      This is not football from 200 years ago, and pining for it isn't going to get rid of VAR. This is the biggest, most lucrative league championship on the planet in the 21st Century. So if you're going to get the result you want, it has to be on merit, not handed to you because of a ref error. If we have the means to get a correct decision, as we now have, it is stupid to not use them. Other sports have had the means for years, and they've all got on and accepted whatever the decision is. That's what we have to do, whether we're in the ground or not.

      I'm sure you enjoyed being one of the lucky 6,000 matchgoers to attend our games this season. VAR was not used during the game you went to, but in the game it was, every Red matchgoer there cheered it, as we needed a match changing decision to be overturned. The pubs were not open to debate the incident, but everyone was happy something could be done about it.

      Quote from Harrisimo
      Maybe after closer images are available they can say Mane was off by a tiny fraction but that is irrelevant as they decide with what images they have at the time, not what can be developed at a later time.

      VAR is still good for the game but they have to refine it.If it can't be proved if a player is off then the benefit must go to the attacking player. They have in effect torn up the offside rule in that...if your level your onside. That's part of the offside rule has been discarded.

      The rule is what it has been since July 1990. If you're level, you're onside. Until 2019, it was not possible to guarantee that an offside call was accurate. Now it's much more accurate than before. Glaring differences between where the last defender and the forward who is active is, can be cleared up in seconds. There can be no advantages. Offside is a factual decision, if you're off, the evidence is there to show that you're off. Accept it, because it ain't changing if you can't.

      Quote from Robby The Z
      Not for binning it but you are spot on that it changes how referees do their job. One example is this business of linesmen not raising the flag when everybody and their brother can see if it is offside, all because their might need to be a review.

      It's not a business, it's advisory and for very good reason. No linesman can guarantee that his judging of a tight offside call is 100% accurate. So they should wait until the move is over to put his flag up and let VAR judge it. VAR has calibrated lines to make the decision, he only has his eyesight, and that's not good enough when there's so much resting on the right decision made.

      Quote from FL Red
      Still think they should just make it like this....managers get 2 challenges per game. If they want a play looked at, they tell the 4th official (within a reasonable amount of time from when the play happens) and the match ref comes over and looks at the pitch side monitor at the play. If he sees that the video shows a mistake was made, then he changes the call. So at most that's 4 stoppages per game and leave it up to the managers to decide when to use them. Once they are out of challenges, if the worst call of the day is made, too bad, it stands. You can't tell me that if Oliver had watched that challenge over on a monitor by the pitch he wouldn't have come over and sent off Pickford.

      Goal line tech is fine, and I'd be they are working on tech to automatically determine offside.

      The paranoia over the use of technology in the sport has got to the stage now, where people are questioning the accuracy of goal line technology. We can all see the benefits of it's use, and why it made a decision it did, but still people question it.

      Jürgen Klopp is a football coach, not a referee, the responsibility should not rest on his shoulders, he has more than enough to do to win games for us, as it is. Refusing to attend the cup replay last year saw him get a very hostile reaction. Using a review to get an opponent sent off in a derby away from home, would be a PR disaster for him and us.

      Quote from JD
      Much more pitchside review from on the field referee's required.

      Carragher has now called for the monitor to not be used. He spent all last year begging for it to be used, now he doesn't want it at all because he says it means the original decision will be overturned. That's the same with VAR everywhere. The ref uses the monitor so he can give the decision he should have in the first place. Then he can explain what happened on the pitch to anyone who asks him.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #157: Jan 07, 2021 09:28:06 pm

      Quote from Robby The Z
      Not for binning it but you are spot on that it changes how referees do their job. One example is this business of linesmen not raising the flag when everybody and their brother can see if it is offside, all because their might need to be a review.

      Quote from lfc across the water
      It's not a business, it's advisory and for very good reason. No linesman can guarantee that his judging of a tight offside call is 100% accurate. So they should wait until the move is over to put his flag up and let VAR judge it. VAR has calibrated lines to make the decision, he only has his eyesight, and that's not good enough when there's so much resting on the right decision made.


      Don't know how disingenuinely you treated the other posts you quoted in your thread but with mine - "this business" is a rather common figure of speech over here meaning "the practice of" - it doesn't mean business as in commercial establishments or something like that.

      Also, I was clearly referring to the more obvious cases of offside "when everybody and their brother can see...", not the razor-thin calls you are referencing.

      AS I said, I'm not for binning VAR, but it isn't beyond improvements in implementation. I think the authorities may have shifted in the past few weeks to a reduced application of it and if that is the case, I would favor that.
      lfc across the water
      • Needs a Klopp hug...Rafa's Number 1 fan...VAR has no faults Promoter
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #158: Jan 07, 2021 10:46:49 pm
      What often looks a clear and obvious offside on first viewing, looks less so when the replays are shown. The main incidents in our game in Denmark being some of the most recent examples. Hence why the flag needs to be, and has been, kept down until the move plays out.
      0112358
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #159: Jan 08, 2021 12:46:07 pm
      One key problem is: who here knows the rules, I mean: the precise rules. We all argue from wishy-washy knowledge and certainly from that POV it seems VAR sucks, but who knows what happens if we open the rulebook and look closely to what's in there? Just a reminder.

      VAR has to go solely of the reason that it destroys genuine entertainment and excitement. I mean you can't emotionally explode anymore on a goal from your team because you know that it might be overturned. Do leave VAR only for those cases where a guy is 2m offside or when some dude does foul someone Zidane-headbutt-style - the real gross things.
      Swab
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #160: Jan 08, 2021 01:06:32 pm
      Don't know how disingenuinely you treated the other posts you quoted in your thread but with mine - "this business" is a rather common figure of speech over here meaning "the practice of" - it doesn't mean business as in commercial establishments or something like that.

      Also, I was clearly referring to the more obvious cases of offside "when everybody and their brother can see...", not the razor-thin calls you are referencing.

      AS I said, I'm not for binning VAR, but it isn't beyond improvements in implementation. I think the authorities may have shifted in the past few weeks to a reduced application of it and if that is the case, I would favor that.

      The problem with VAR exists between chair and keyboard.

      It's that simple.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #161: Jan 08, 2021 01:07:02 pm
      What often looks a clear and obvious offside on first viewing, looks less so when the replays are shown. The main incidents in our game in Denmark being some of the most recent examples. Hence why the flag needs to be, and has been, kept down until the move plays out.

      So is there any instance of an assistant referee seeing a player in an offside position receive a ball (advancing on goal), no matter how far "behind" the 2nd to last defender he is when the ball is played, where he can raise the flag immediately?
      ozi_wozzy
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #162: Jan 12, 2021 01:50:28 pm
      VAR doesn't need to go, it needs to be applied properly and in a limited manner. Case of Pickford escaping punishment because of his GBH on VVD was a perfect example. Referees or 4th officials obsessing over millimeters on offside decisions or FA constantly tweaking what does and doesn't constitute a handball is what's ruining it.

      If they can't find a balance, then agreed, it's got to go as it's ruining the game. I don't disagree with the system in principal, I do think there is a place for it to help the sport brought into 21st century. It exists in some form or other in so many other professional sports, from cricket to tennis, Rugby to American football. It's the f***nuggets at FA who continue to fail the beautiful game.

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