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      VAR has to go

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      AlwaysTheKop
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #50: Oct 19, 2020 10:05:47 pm
      Another stupid offside disallowed goal in that Wolves match then.
      Del Boca Vista
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #51: Oct 20, 2020 01:39:02 am
      people really thought VAR would stop referees from "getting things wrong" or outright fixing games - as if referees individually fixed games to begin with. the system is now in place but fixes happen anyway - they can do whatever they want. they can show us red and blue lines and we can see someone is onside but they can say it's offside anyway and they don't have to explain anything. we will keep buying. they have billions douped. we're f**king doomed.
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #52: Oct 20, 2020 10:22:03 am

      None of us are "matchgoers" atm, and we shouldn't be segregating our fanbase by matchgoers, non matchgoers, or any other criteria. Whether you are or not, whether there is VAR or not, every goal scored is provisional until play restarts. It has always been that.

      I can accept any decision once it is correct. So I wanted to see why Mane was deemed offside before posting this. Eventually, we see that the black line that corresponds to the red broken line drawn for Mane, appears beyond the yellow line of the defender's foot. Unfortunately, that means it's offside. It's millimetres, but millimetres matter when there's a EPL title at stake. We've had those very tight VAR decisions go our way before, so even though I'm upset it's gone against me this time, I would be a total hypocrite to complain about it now. We have got off relatively lightly with VAR calls compared to other clubs.

      I'm more upset that crap defending threw away 2 leads and 2 points. Why did Hendo not intercept the through ball that led to the equaliser, and why did our defenders allow their players to easily outjump them to equalise both times. That's what should be the talking point. That definitely has to go. If they don't allow that to happen, we have 3 points and the last minute incident doesn't matter. Whoever is at centre back has to get to the ball first over the coming months, not stand there watching his opponent have free headers every week.

      Without VAR, Chelsea wouldn't have got the penalty to help take us over the finishing line last season, and they would have had 11 men to play against us recently. So I won't say it should be binned. We need it, it is doing a great job the vast majority of the time and thankfully, it is not going anywhere.

      I don’t know why people get their knickers in a twist because they don’t go to the match. My post didn’t mean to offend those people. But all you did was go and prove what I said anyway.

      No, nobody goes the match at the minute, but VAR was brought in when people did, so I’m not sure what your point is.

      My point is that had a survey been done amongst season ticket holders, not just at our club but up and down the country, then I’m pretty certain a high percentage would have been against VAR. I’m even more certain now that if one was conducted then the results would be above 90% against.

      Before VAR was introduced, if you had done a survey amongst fans up and down the country who don’t go to the match and watch from home then I think most would have been in favour of VAR. If you asked them now, I think the numbers would have dropped though.

      I obviously don’t have any numbers or facts to support this, it’s just my opinion from what I’ve experienced or seen myself.

      You say in your post that you want perfection basically - which is what my original post was all about. Before VAR came in, this was huge across social media. Any decision a referee got wrong was highlighted and spoken about everywhere. Not just on social media, the likes of carragher and neville would go in on it on MNF too. It became a big thing and there was pressure to bring technology into the game. This came from non match goers who are desperate for every decision to be factual and correct like yourself.

      Whereas people who go the match accept human error whether they go for you or against you, they just want the game to flow.

      On your last point, cant actually believe you think VAR has been a great tool so far and that is has been used superbly. It’s been a shambles from day one and there are talking points in several games, every single god damn week.
      AlwaysTheKop
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #53: Oct 20, 2020 08:39:36 pm
      Tell you what, watching this Utd game against Paris... it’s shocking how much better foreign refs are compared to ours, it’s not even funny, the difference in quality is scary.
      fields of anny rd
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #54: Oct 20, 2020 10:10:14 pm
      David Coote was on VAR duty for the game. He has made a mess of things a few times. From Nottingham.

      All these refs have to give info regarding their upbringing, who they grew up supporting etc. when they are appointed. It's known that yesterday's ref Michael Oliver is a Newcastle fan. Coote's team preference is unknown according to the Echo's survey.

      I'd like to think Coote made genuine errors.

      My mate is a ref just been promoted to do the conference and EPL u23s. Hes down as being a Bury fan.

      Hes one happy man tonight after the game in Paris let's put it that way.
      Davbro
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #55: Oct 20, 2020 10:10:43 pm
      Tell you what, watching this Utd game against Paris... it’s shocking how much better foreign refs are compared to ours, it’s not even funny, the difference in quality is scary.

      What would you say the difference is? Could it be arrogance of British referees? Fear of getting it wrong and getting lambasted by the media? I mean before VAR I used to think continental referees used to blow the whistle too much but now like you, I think they are more decisive and just...... well better I suppose.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #56: Oct 20, 2020 10:34:14 pm
      What would you say the difference is? Could it be arrogance of British referees? Fear of getting it wrong and getting lambasted by the media? I mean before VAR I used to think continental referees used to blow the whistle too much but now like you, I think they are more decisive and just...... well better I suppose.

      Pro refs in Premier league earn a basic of £42k topped up with match fee's they can make over £70k. I don't think it's enough. Given the pressure and resposibility they should be on double that plus fee's.

      Been said before but managers should have one challenge on penalties and red cards per game. That might eliminate a lot of aggro from managers after the game and reduce pressure on refs.
      Harrisimo
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #57: Oct 20, 2020 10:50:28 pm
      people really thought VAR would stop referees from "getting things wrong" or outright fixing games - as if referees individually fixed games to begin with. the system is now in place but fixes happen anyway - they can do whatever they want. they can show us red and blue lines and we can see someone is onside but they can say it's offside anyway and they don't have to explain anything. we will keep buying. they have billions douped. we're f**king doomed.

      Come on Del boy yer don't think there is  match fixing going on. The game isn't 100% clean, maybe a player can be got at.But not an entire team. A ref couldn't guarantee a fix, they have power but not the power to force or guarantee a result.
      AlwaysTheKop
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #58: Oct 21, 2020 12:11:15 am
      What would you say the difference is? Could it be arrogance of British referees? Fear of getting it wrong and getting lambasted by the media? I mean before VAR I used to think continental referees used to blow the whistle too much but now like you, I think they are more decisive and just...... well better I suppose.
      I think ours are actually too sensitive and don’t want to accept they are terrible so ignore it all so their feelings don’t get hurt... that ref today in the Utd game did not give one single f**k, he knew his decisions and stuck to them and had minimal help from VAR, in fact I only heard the word VAR like once or twice, it was refreshing.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #59: Oct 21, 2020 06:04:47 am
      I think ours are actually too sensitive and don’t want to accept they are terrible so ignore it all so their feelings don’t get hurt... that ref today in the Utd game did not give one single f**k, he knew his decisions and stuck to them and had minimal help from VAR, in fact I only heard the word VAR like once or twice, it was refreshing.

      In the Rennes Krasnodar Champions League match today a challenge was made in the area and a player was upended. Play continued for about 10 seconds and the referee blew his whistle, pointed to his earpiece and then to the spot. Replay showed it was deffo a pen. No drama, no conversation. Greek center ref and Italian VAR. It CAN be made to work right, you just need the right people.
      Jimsouse67
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #60: Oct 21, 2020 07:01:52 am
      Tell you what, watching this Utd game against Paris... it’s shocking how much better foreign refs are compared to ours, it’s not even funny, the difference in quality is scary.
      The gulf in quality is massive and it’s been that way for quite some time,wouldn’t mind swapping out some of our ‘so called refs ‘with some of there’s for a season.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #61: Oct 21, 2020 11:56:16 am
      Quote from HamannsTheMan
      My point is that had a survey been done amongst season ticket holders, not just at our club but up and down the country, then I’m pretty certain a high percentage would have been against VAR. I’m even more certain now that if one was conducted then the results would be above 90% against.

      Before VAR was introduced, if you had done a survey amongst fans up and down the country who don’t go to the match and watch from home then I think most would have been in favour of VAR. If you asked them now, I think the numbers would have dropped though.

      I obviously don’t have any numbers or facts to support this, it’s just my opinion from what I’ve experienced or seen myself.

      You say in your post that you want perfection basically - which is what my original post was all about. Before VAR came in, this was huge across social media. Any decision a referee got wrong was highlighted and spoken about everywhere. Not just on social media, the likes of carragher and neville would go in on it on MNF too. It became a big thing and there was pressure to bring technology into the game. This came from non match goers who are desperate for every decision to be factual and correct like yourself.

      Whereas people who go the match accept human error whether they go for you or against you, they just want the game to flow.

      On your last point, cant actually believe you think VAR has been a great tool so far and that is has been used superbly. It’s been a shambles from day one and there are talking points in several games, every single god damn week.

      I'm not looking for perfection. VAR never guaranteed perfection. What I look for is accuracy. If all of the ball is 1mm over the goalline, a goal is scored. If it's 10cm short, it's not a goal. We all accept that. If a part of the player is found 1mm over the defensive line, they are offside. If he is level with the defensive line, his goal stands. We all have to accept that, that's the law. It's not there for show, it's there for a reason.

      I've seen the surveys. Most people support VAR in some form, even though they want it to change. But VAR doesn't change, it's up to IFAB to make the changes, then the VAR will apply whatever that change is. Under the laws last year, VVD would have won a penalty, and Mane would be onside. Now with the change in the law, both are offside. However hard it is to take, and in this case it is very hard, take it we must. I just got on with the rest of the game. While I'm one of it's biggest advocates, the knee jerk thread that was set up here minutes after the game, has not got universal support from the posters here, let alone fans in general. So assuming that all "matchgoer" and "non matchgoer" fans, share the same opinion as you think is wrong.

      We've seen the reaction to the challenge on VVD, when human error happens. But the laws apply to all teams equally. If you handle the ball in the box it will be spotted. If you dive in the box you will get booked, not a penalty. If you move off your line to save a penalty, it will be retaken. If you are in an offside position, you will be caught and your goal will be disallowed. Winning the league brings in 150mn quid of prize money, getting relegated means you have to settle for parachute payments. So as in most major sports, we now have the resources to apply the laws of the game, and they are been used. This is not a Sunday League kickabout, there are serious prizes at stake, and human error is not good enough, decisions must be what they should be. 
      Davbro
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #62: Oct 21, 2020 12:08:06 pm
      I think ours are actually too sensitive and don’t want to accept they are terrible so ignore it all so their feelings don’t get hurt... that ref today in the Utd game did not give one single f**k, he knew his decisions and stuck to them and had minimal help from VAR, in fact I only heard the word VAR like once or twice, it was refreshing.

      Do you think that could also be a reason why British referees don't seem to get the big Euro and World cup games. Last big game I remember a Bristish ref officiating was the world cup final between Spain and Netherlands. I'm too lazy to check the stats tbh but just don't remember seeing it too often. If it is the case  then what is going on at Referee university? Should we be sending them away on a gap year?
      AlwaysTheKop
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #63: Oct 21, 2020 01:07:38 pm
      Do you think that could also be a reason why British referees don't seem to get the big Euro and World cup games. Last big game I remember a Bristish ref officiating was the world cup final between Spain and Netherlands. I'm too lazy to check the stats tbh but just don't remember seeing it too often. If it is the case  then what is going on at Referee university? Should we be sending them away on a gap year?
      I think it’s just a case of our culture sometimes now, we live in a world were we think we are the dogs bollocks and if anyone says otherwise, it’s ignored, we’d rather just believe we are great and perfect, and you don’t see it more than in refs... like I said, it’s stems from insecurity, and those refs are some extremely insecure humans, who probably love the attention they make to be honest, they couldn’t do it as players so they’ll get the headlines as refs, bad or good.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #64: Oct 24, 2020 11:58:57 pm
      Quote from Harrisimo
      David Coote was on VAR duty for the game. He has made a mess of things a few times. From Nottingham.

      All these refs have to give info regarding their upbringing, who they grew up supporting etc. when they are appointed. It's known that yesterday's ref Michael Oliver is a Newcastle fan. Coote's team preference is unknown according to the Echo's survey.

      I'd like to think Coote made genuine errors.

      You are a cricket fan, I believe. If that's the case, I'm sure you're aware of how much scrutiny and detail with technology the third umpire goes into, dealing with reviews for no balls, lbw infra red/snicko technology, run outs, and debatable catches. They have to make black and white decisions, and surprise surprise everyone accepts whatever his decision is. Players, coaches, fans, media. In some of the more complicated calls, 5 minute long reviews to make decisions, are not uncommon.

      Our version of that is onside and offside, and sometimes it comes down to millimetres, so the lines have to be drawn up. As in cricket and other sports, whatever the VAR decision is should be instantly accepted as correct, not be taken as corruption. These are professional referees, many with 15-20 years experience at the top level. They're there to apply the laws of the game as they stand, not as you want them to be. All their conversations with the ref on the field are recorded, and assessed after the game. All the checks done and decisions taken are based on the video footage. You may not agree with their decision, but there's zero possibility of them making it based on upbringing or prejudice, or what part of the country the city is in. Before VAR, a ref on the field could give any decision he wanted about any incident, and give any reason to justify it, true or false. He no longer has that option.

      Gutted as I was with the decisions against us last week, especially the disallowed goal, I have seen the evidence why they were made, so I can live with it. I always said I would accept any decision against me if it was correct. That hasn't changed. It may only have been millimetres, but millimetres matter when the prizes are handed out at the end of the season.
      AussieRed
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #65: Oct 25, 2020 12:54:04 am
      That was a f**king joke today and this is becoming more farcical every time a game is payed!
      WeAreMenOfShanklysBest
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #66: Oct 25, 2020 12:59:53 am
      That was a f**king joke today and this is becoming more farcical every time a game is payed!
      I didn’t budge when either goals went in because I just assumed there’d be an offside in the build up, get it gone

      And don’t get me started on what var did for their penalty  :f_steam:
      AussieRed
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #67: Oct 25, 2020 01:08:17 am
      I didn’t budge when either goals went in because I just assumed there’d be an offside in the build up, get it gone

      And don’t get me started on what var did for their penalty  :f_steam:

      I hear ya was the same.

      When Mo's disallowed goal went in, I didn't even celebrate but I was still in awe!! Just f**king WOW!!!!
      WeAreMenOfShanklysBest
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #68: Oct 25, 2020 01:14:47 am
      I hear ya was the same.

      When Mo's disallowed goal went in, I didn't even celebrate but I was still in awe!! Just f**king WOW!!!!
      That was some touch and finish, brilliant
      Benito
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #69: Oct 25, 2020 03:25:16 am
      The technology is fine, it’s just the muppets making the decisions. Offside should flag anything clear that’s been missed (e.g. Mo’s goal today). Anything dubious or inline should be based on ref/linesman’s real time decision. As for the rest of the stupid decisions, it should just be another tool for the ref. Anything contentious mandate going over to the screen or pull an iPad out his jacksie to review the replay, make a call and move on. Then everything is still on his head, as it always used to be.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #70: Oct 25, 2020 01:39:44 pm
      You are a cricket fan, I believe. If that's the case, I'm sure you're aware of how much scrutiny and detail with technology the third umpire goes into, dealing with reviews for no balls, lbw infra red/snicko technology, run outs, and debatable catches. They have to make black and white decisions, and surprise surprise everyone accepts whatever his decision is. Players, coaches, fans, media. In some of the more complicated calls, 5 minute long reviews to make decisions, are not uncommon.

      Our version of that is onside and offside, and sometimes it comes down to millimetres, so the lines have to be drawn up. As in cricket and other sports, whatever the VAR decision is should be instantly accepted as correct, not be taken as corruption. These are professional referees, many with 15-20 years experience at the top level. They're there to apply the laws of the game as they stand, not as you want them to be. All their conversations with the ref on the field are recorded, and assessed after the game. All the checks done and decisions taken are based on the video footage. You may not agree with their decision, but there's zero possibility of them making it based on upbringing or prejudice, or what part of the country the city is in. Before VAR, a ref on the field could give any decision he wanted about any incident, and give any reason to justify it, true or false. He no longer has that option.

      Gutted as I was with the decisions against us last week, especially the disallowed goal, I have seen the evidence why they were made, so I can live with it. I always said I would accept any decision against me if it was correct. That hasn't changed. It may only have been millimetres, but millimetres matter when the prizes are handed out at the end of the season.

      Explain yesterdays f**k up as I cannot accept what I saw. It's becoming a f**king joke. No way was their a foul by Fab. And it's now two f**king occassions one after another were they are claiming VAR hasn't properly looked at the video evidence correctly.

      It's a f**king joke, the majority of match going fans think it's a f**king joke, the majority of this forum think it's a joke yet still you defend it to the hilt.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #71: Oct 25, 2020 01:41:47 pm
      The technology is fine, it’s just the muppets making the decisions. Offside should flag anything clear that’s been missed (e.g. Mo’s goal today). Anything dubious or inline should be based on ref/linesman’s real time decision. As for the rest of the stupid decisions, it should just be another tool for the ref. Anything contentious mandate going over to the screen or pull an iPad out his jacksie to review the replay, make a call and move on. Then everything is still on his head, as it always used to be.

      How can it be if they are not even making the correct decisions. If the technology is fine, how the f**k is a pen given against us for a fair and legit challenge by Fab?
      LFCexiled
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #72: Oct 25, 2020 02:04:32 pm
      I have to admit that the decisions against us of late are giving me a bit of a persecution complex.

      When you've got those who get paid to know the rules getting basic decisions like the one in Virgil's case, 'forgetting' to check if it was violent conduct or like fabs yesterday where they only checked if it was on the line and 'didn't check' if he'd got the ball then it's all a bit f**king sus' isn't it?

      It's not going anywhere but for fucks sake they've had enough time to get the basics right.
      JD
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #73: Oct 25, 2020 02:19:45 pm

      The 'technology' is simply the ability to rewind events in the game and access all the cameras at slow motion.  It's the rules of the game and the idiots they've got at Stockley Park that's ruining it.

      Much more pitchside review from on the field referee's required.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #74: Oct 25, 2020 02:30:17 pm
      The 'technology' is simply the ability to rewind events in the game and access all the cameras at slow motion.  It's the rules of the game and the idiots they've got at Stockley Park that's ruining it.

      Much more pitchside review from on the field referee's required.

      And yet the divvies can't even do that correctly. How many replays do the tv companies use, all of them showed Fab made a good challenge. So what were the divvies at Stockley Park viewing? Frigging Strictly!!

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