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      VAR has to go

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      fields of anny rd
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #125: Nov 28, 2020 10:10:26 pm
      I trained myself almost straight away to not celebrate when a goal went in with VAR. But it's not good. I loved going batshit when a goal went in. It's alright saying wait for the replay and celebrate after but by then it's more relief than joy.

      I like technology, it works in other sports but it doesnt work very well in this one. Goal line technology works well. Offside technology with a degree of common sense and respecting the initial call would work well (similar to umpires call in cricket) with understanding that there are limitations to the technology, so going to the nearest mm is absolutely pointless because that technology doesnt actually exist no matter how many lines they draw.

      After that it should be left alone.
      ruthcity
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #126: Nov 28, 2020 10:40:23 pm
      Honestly, if our player is fouled in an identical situation, are you going to argue "no it's not a penalty"? When Fernandinho saved the ball against Chelsea last summer, did you say "it's not a handball" or did you say, "that decision by the ref is a disgrace, I want to win the league tonight"?

      2,000 fans want to be at next week's game. VAR in place, isn't going to stop them.

      You won't need an alarm clock so.

      Unfortunately, Robbo makes contact with the forward in the box. If you know the laws, you know what that means. Having seen the evidence, it's pretty clear what the decision should be, and I can't complain about it.

      I always said I would accept a decision against me if it is correct. All the decisions were correct by the law. That's what VAR is for. It's not going anywhere. We all tuned in knowing that VAR is in use, and we all decided to watch it. So you will need your alarm clock, and all the "I'm done with the game" group will be back with us for the next game.

      For me, I’m done not because of decisions for or against us, but because of how they rule without explanation.

      1) Muted excitement. You score a goal. You celebrate with a but. Then you go ok, fine. Let’s see if it’s a clean goal. Then someone away from the pitch comes drawing some lines.

      2) You rule however you like but don’t explain. I look at their analysis and think it looks like the outcome I think it will be for and against us. But many times, the person on the computer makes a 50/50 outcome into what they want it to be. Perhaps if they come out to explain, it will make the game more tolerable.

      At the moment it just feels like VAR lets the officials do whatever they want - when to use it, how decisions go. It’s no longer a beautiful game. I’d rather take a ruling mistake without explanation in the old days than having the benefit of analysis now without any explanation on the ruling. You want to be fair and therefore you use VAR. Granted. But even with the benefit of video, there will be marginal decisions to make. That’s when you’re not being fair to fans all the way, if you rule however you like.

      If that’s the case, there’s no real game. They can do whatever they want. I’m out of the game. So what if they’re right. The game no longer enjoyable to watch.

      Make no mistake, most of us are clear headed. We know what looks soft or lucky, for or against us. Most of us see the play as it is. I’d dare say none of us are Evra level when watching the game. But that’s a separate discussion.
      AussieRed
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #127: Nov 28, 2020 10:56:51 pm
      Honestly I would f**k it off myself but got a lot of time for this current set of players and manager. Think we are in for a lot of pain and frustration this season (compared to last) but I am very interested to see what we are made of.

      Not so much on results but on performances becUse honestly the season is going to sh*t
      but if we stick together and improve next season as a result.

      Can only make us stronger in the long run, but yeah I used to love watching the footie no matter who was on, but the whole thing is a sad farce now and  the circus that surrounds it only makes it shi**er still.

      All in all the product is sanatised sh*te. Has been for a few years now but the not celebrating goals has become common now and takes away the thrill of it all.

      Yeah I know mate, I couldn’t truly give up watching the boys, I love this Club too much. Besides, I can’t sleep if I know we are playing, so no chance I won’t be watching. Just when the balls goes in the back of the net, I don’t react at all and if there’s a possibility a Team is gonna get a penalty against us, I know it will be awarded to them as soon as it goes to VAR. As soon as the ref started running over to the monitor, I knew we were fu**ed!
      Tadders
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #128: Nov 29, 2020 08:53:39 am
      Var is re-referring now - forget clear and obvious - the inept people officiating th3 game change the rules every week


      It amazes me in football one of the biggest businesses on the planet gets things like this wrong - it’s astounding
      RedKop114
      • Forum Dean Saunders
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #129: Nov 29, 2020 09:24:11 am
      VAR basically changed the match from 0-3 to 1-1 and that's just horrible.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #130: Nov 29, 2020 10:04:46 am
      Honestly, if our player is fouled in an identical situation, are you going to argue "no it's not a penalty"? When Fernandinho saved the ball against Chelsea last summer, did you say "it's not a handball" or did you say, "that decision by the ref is a disgrace, I want to win the league tonight"?

      2,000 fans want to be at next week's game. VAR in place, isn't going to stop them.

      You won't need an alarm clock so.

      Unfortunately, Robbo makes contact with the forward in the box. If you know the laws, you know what that means. Having seen the evidence, it's pretty clear what the decision should be, and I can't complain about it.

      I always said I would accept a decision against me if it is correct. All the decisions were correct by the law. That's what VAR is for. It's not going anywhere. We all tuned in knowing that VAR is in use, and we all decided to watch it. So you will need your alarm clock, and all the "I'm done with the game" group will be back with us for the next game.


      Why am I not surprised you are still sucking the bellend of var


      Anyone who continuely supports it is clueless to the damage it is doing to the sport
      Brian78
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #131: Nov 29, 2020 11:01:14 am
      Anyone know why football amploys four officials to a game now? Linesmen do f**k.all and the refs though they think they are in chsrge are not, flash some cards but even thst is often at the order of var. Coin toss about the max of the day out for them now
      lfc across the water
      • Needs a Klopp hug...Rafa's Number 1 fan...VAR has no faults Promoter
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #132: Nov 29, 2020 01:57:11 pm
      Quote from ed603em
      VAR is there to eradicate clear and obvious errors by officials. What's interesting is that this issue is only an issue in this country ... in Spain, France, Germany, Italy etc VAR is being used and there is nowhere near the levels of controversy that we have here in England. It's not VAR that is the issue, it's the eejits sitting at the controls.

      You are right that the decisions were correct by the law but in real time noone saw a penalty - noone from Brighton asked for a penalty. It was only because someone faceless moron who has no understanding of the game looked at it. Peter Walton on BT said that it wasn't a clear and obvious error and for that reason they should not have gotten involved.

      I get where you're coming from and you're right but TV technology is really not the problem. The problem is the current crop of match officials have zero accountability and zero transparency. In rugby you can hear their communications, you know the process they go through to get to a decision ... in football it's all shrouded in secrecy and you end up with the situation we had earlier this season after the derby at Goodison where noone knew why VAR had not awarded a penalty, and why they had not done something about Pickford's tackle.

      All the problems we currently have are preventable. Using TV and video technology is definitely workable in this sport but it requires a huge culture change in the current group of match officials first.

      VAR is there to uphold the laws of the game. Offside is rarely clear and obvious, it's black and white. The lines are calibrated and there's no tolerance allowed. If you're found to be offside, then you're offside.

      There have been plenty of disputed VAR calls in other leagues. The VAR communication is available to the host broadcaster in the EPL and they often tell you what's been said. But if I'm watching on a crap stream with no sound in a pub, then broadcasting VAR communication won't help me understand anything. Nobody is stopping you celebrating, you decide whether to celebrate or not. The vast majority of goals we score are given, without VAR intervention. I've had to wait to celebrate before, I will have to again, but I would rather wait a minute to celebrate a valid goal, than celebrate a goal that clearly should not be given. 

      I'm sorry but the Robbo incident is a foul. He doesn't win the ball and he catches the forward. We saw them given before VAR, we've seen them given this season, we've seen them given for us this season. If that isn't given, then the ref has questions to answer. He needed one look at the monitor to inform himself of what happened to make his decision. Before, he could only have one look and take a guess, be it right or wrong. Whether you like it or not, at this level of the game, those days are over.
      Brian78
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #133: Nov 29, 2020 02:49:55 pm
      VAR is there to uphold the laws of the game. Offside is rarely clear and obvious, it's black and white. The lines are calibrated and there's no tolerance allowed. If you're found to be offside, then you're offside.

      There have been plenty of disputed VAR calls in other leagues. The VAR communication is available to the host broadcaster in the EPL and they often tell you what's been said. But if I'm watching on a crap stream with no sound in a pub, then broadcasting VAR communication won't help me understand anything. Nobody is stopping you celebrating, you decide whether to celebrate or not. The vast majority of goals we score are given, without VAR intervention. I've had to wait to celebrate before, I will have to again, but I would rather wait a minute to celebrate a valid goal, than celebrate a goal that clearly should not be given. 

      I'm sorry but the Robbo incident is a foul. He doesn't win the ball and he catches the forward. We saw them given before VAR, we've seen them given this season, we've seen them given for us this season. If that isn't given, then the ref has questions to answer. He needed one look at the monitor to inform himself of what happened to make his decision. Before, he could only have one look and take a guess, be it right or wrong. Whether you like it or not, at this level of the game, those days are over.

      Yes were seeing them given thats the problem. In the real world of football or spirt where contact is meant to be part of the game you are honestly telling us that that was a penalty? Minimal contact, going both ways by the way, to which the one deemed to br fouled didnt actually go down under the initial contact. If thats in the centre circle iyts no more then 2 lads battling for the ball. If its now deemed worthy of a peno well then th game is finished.

      And Id say that had we got it or had utd chelsea or Everton got it against them.

      The game is being destroyed before our eyes. Yes diving has been around a long time now and detracts from the game but now we have a system that takes away the flow of the game, takes away the officials power and worst of all gives calls wrongly..
      chats
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #134: Nov 29, 2020 03:14:31 pm
      Offsides are a funny one. Still not heard a single VAR fan justify it to me. How is it acceptable to break it down to shirt sleeves/toes if it's a subjective call in the first place as to when the picture is frozen (how do you know that's the exact moment the attacker played the pass - the answer is you don't)? The lines are also not drawn with consistency - if you watch the Salah call and then the one in the Everton game later they weren't drawn from the same spot. And to top it off you're using cameras that aren't actually in line with the last man.

      Too many errors there to go with this 'offside is offside' bollocks. Just use it for the obvious ones like Aubameyang at Old Trafford last season I think it was. If it looks tight on first glance of a freeze frame then it probably is so just go with the onfield call.

      As for fouls on field - there's simply too much subjectivity involved for us to keep going with this current plan of re-refereeing everything from a TV screen hundreds of miles away. The Champions League seem to do a better job of this.
      AJ
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #135: Nov 29, 2020 03:33:15 pm
      The only people who benefit from VAR these days is the press! it is definitely too fooked up IMO but I fear it will only get worse 😢
      Tadders
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #136: Nov 29, 2020 03:49:53 pm
      Alan Smith commentating on Utd game ‘Var has had a good day today’ it’s not interfered in much at all

      Says it all ‘interferes’ and the idea that human error would be taken away has totally been lost - in other countries and other sports it’s seems fine
      ed603em
      • Forum Kenny Dalglish
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #137: Nov 29, 2020 08:40:45 pm
      VAR is there to uphold the laws of the game. Offside is rarely clear and obvious, it's black and white. The lines are calibrated and there's no tolerance allowed. If you're found to be offside, then you're offside.

      There have been plenty of disputed VAR calls in other leagues. The VAR communication is available to the host broadcaster in the EPL and they often tell you what's been said. But if I'm watching on a crap stream with no sound in a pub, then broadcasting VAR communication won't help me understand anything. Nobody is stopping you celebrating, you decide whether to celebrate or not. The vast majority of goals we score are given, without VAR intervention. I've had to wait to celebrate before, I will have to again, but I would rather wait a minute to celebrate a valid goal, than celebrate a goal that clearly should not be given. 

      I'm sorry but the Robbo incident is a foul. He doesn't win the ball and he catches the forward. We saw them given before VAR, we've seen them given this season, we've seen them given for us this season. If that isn't given, then the ref has questions to answer. He needed one look at the monitor to inform himself of what happened to make his decision. Before, he could only have one look and take a guess, be it right or wrong. Whether you like it or not, at this level of the game, those days are over.

      All match officials are there to uphold the LotG, not just VAR. VAR does have a specific remit which is to correct any clear and obvious errors made by on-field officials.

      I don't think that the initial decision to not award a penalty was a clear and obvious error and therefore VAR should not have gotten involved. A number of former referrees have drawn the same conclusion. Noone is saying that it wasn't a foul - the question is about the process that the VAR went through which appears to be at odds with the published protocol of only correcting clear and obvious errors. Peter Walton said this too so this is not just me as a LFC fan saying it, a former elite referee with no allegience to the club has drawn the same conclusion.

      Offsides are different and, yes, a player is either onside or offside.

      As for accessing the VAR feed, the English broadcasters do not seem to be accessing it ... there was a lot of confusion and misinformation going around after the Everton game about what the VAR checked or didn't check and the reasoning behind it all and this all came from the broadcasters who were relying on Twitter posts from PGMOL and / or the EPL so, like I say, they don't seem to know about this.

      Allowing fans to hear the conversation adds transparency and will help to educate fans too - the majority of VAR decisions are correct but because we don't know what they are looking for, it is hard for fans to always know why they are correct. Transparency is always a good thing and it is slightly archaic that the fans cannot hear these communications.

      I fully agree that VAR is not going away and I don't want it to. It is not having anywhere near the same level of issues in other leagues so it is not VAR that is the issue, it is the officials using it that are the issue. Last season they did not do enough - there were hardly any instances where they asked a ref to look at a pitchside monitor. This season they are doing it too much ... it is still relatively new and still needs ironing out but in its current form in England, it is creating more problems than it is solving and it is not helping the game. The officials need to accept that the days of operating in secrecy are over: they need to understand that they need to be far more accountable and can no longer just hide in the shadows.
      chats
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #138: Nov 29, 2020 08:43:07 pm
      Any VAR fan want to explain why Adama didn't get a pen for Wolves there? Very similar to our incident IMO.

      Absolutely no consistency at all.
      ed603em
      • Forum Kenny Dalglish
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #139: Nov 29, 2020 08:48:17 pm
      Offsides are a funny one. Still not heard a single VAR fan justify it to me. How is it acceptable to break it down to shirt sleeves/toes if it's a subjective call in the first place as to when the picture is frozen (how do you know that's the exact moment the attacker played the pass - the answer is you don't)? The lines are also not drawn with consistency - if you watch the Salah call and then the one in the Everton game later they weren't drawn from the same spot. And to top it off you're using cameras that aren't actually in line with the last man.

      Too many errors there to go with this 'offside is offside' bollocks. Just use it for the obvious ones like Aubameyang at Old Trafford last season I think it was. If it looks tight on first glance of a freeze frame then it probably is so just go with the onfield call.

      As for fouls on field - there's simply too much subjectivity involved for us to keep going with this current plan of re-refereeing everything from a TV screen hundreds of miles away. The Champions League seem to do a better job of this.

      You're right - the technology is nowhere near as accurate as it is made out to be, both in terms of capturing the precise moment the ball is played and the lines that are used to work out which player is furthest forward.

      The goalline technology has a similar accuracy but it uses a graphic instead of the actual shot ... so when a goalline decision is made you see an artificial graphic rather than an actual replay. The graphic we had the other week when Firmino's shot was 0.1mm away was a great case in point ... the technology is not precise enough to make an accurate and reliable call when the margins are that fine. But because it is a nice crystal clear graphic we all accept it and move on!
      « Last Edit: Nov 29, 2020 08:54:43 pm by ed603em »
      ed603em
      • Forum Kenny Dalglish
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #140: Nov 29, 2020 08:53:58 pm
      Any VAR fan want to explain why Adama didn't get a pen for Wolves there? Very similar to our incident IMO.

      Absolutely no consistency at all.

      Yep, it's a farce ... not given because today's VAR is a different person to yesterday's. Both so-called "elite" referees mind you.
      stuey
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #141: Nov 29, 2020 09:06:30 pm
      Nothing wrong with the technology the problem lies with exactly the same factor that the technology was meant to correct - the human element.
      Whether it be bias or visual impairment on behalf of the official monitoring the images, it is not working.
      As stated the technology is faultless, it needs a panel of three or more to make a credible decision.
      PolarBearRed
      • Forum Billy Liddell
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #142: Nov 29, 2020 09:31:02 pm
      Nothing wrong with the technology the problem lies with exactly the same factor that the technology was meant to correct - the human element.
      Whether it be bias or visual impairment on behalf of the official monitoring the images, it is not working.
      As stated the technology is faultless, it needs a panel of three or more to make a credible decision.
      100% agree with this. Most people were on board with the idea but what we had not imagined was that it would be implemented in such a ridiculous way.

      Offsides: there needs to be some type of minimum imposed to the VAR officials for calling an offside. You can't rule out goals left and right for a toe. Half the foot of a player okay...everything else like the armpit, the elbow and all that nonsense should go. I do not see it implemented like that anywhere else anyway

      Penalties and other fouls: stick to what you said in the beginning which was '' clear and obvious mistakes''. Most of the decisions I see are not clear and obvious mistakes. They are reviewing in slow motion things 30 times to finally decide if there was a penalty or not. How is that clear and obvious?

      Handballs: This is the one I feel the worst about for the players. Can somebody explain to me how the players are supposed to jump with absolutely no use of their hands? That's just opposite to how the human body jumps when you are trying to go as high as possible and you also have to fight off other players around you with your shoulders and arms. On top of all that, a player 3 meters away shoots a ball at full speed into the guy and you whistle and give a penalty based on that?


      I was watching Real Madrid's game yesterday and it looked like Marcelo got pulled by the hair. He shouted for a penalty but there was some level of doubt involved because everything was so fast and he looked like he embellished it with a little back dive. They simply never reviewed it because it wasn't a clear and obvious error.

      In the PL they stop the game for something the ref never could've seen, then proceed to replay it in slow motion for 4 minutes and then, isolate the half a second of incident in slow mo (which always makes it look pretty bad) and then,  the new part, they tell the ref to go review so they discharge themselves of any blame.

      If you review it for 4 minutes, tell the reff its a clear and obvious error and then show him the same isolate half a second of contact then you are guiding and pressuring him into making a decision he was never going to do 5 minutes ago.


       
      « Last Edit: Nov 29, 2020 09:45:08 pm by PolarBearRed »
      lfc across the water
      • Needs a Klopp hug...Rafa's Number 1 fan...VAR has no faults Promoter
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #143: Nov 29, 2020 10:56:31 pm
      Quote from Brian78
      Yes were seeing them given thats the problem. In the real world of football or spirt where contact is meant to be part of the game you are honestly telling us that that was a penalty? Minimal contact, going both ways by the way, to which the one deemed to br fouled didnt actually go down under the initial contact. If thats in the centre circle iyts no more then 2 lads battling for the ball. If its now deemed worthy of a peno well then th game is finished.

      And Id say that had we got it or had utd chelsea or Everton got it against them.

      The game is being destroyed before our eyes. Yes diving has been around a long time now and detracts from the game but now we have a system that takes away the flow of the game, takes away the officials power and worst of all gives calls wrongly..

      The call, or at least the eventual decision, was not wrong. The contact wasn't intentional obviously, but it wasn't minimal either.

      If you're going to make a challenge like Robbo did, you have to win the ball or you give the officials a decision to make. Look at the penalty overturned in the Brighton game last week for an example of when making contact with a forward is not a penalty. That is not destroying the game, that is VAR doing the job it's supposed to do.
      WeAreMenOfShanklysBest
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #144: Nov 30, 2020 12:41:52 am
      Fed up with it. Again on Saturday I didn’t celebrate or cheer any of the 3 times we hit the net because I feared they’d be ruled out. I was right on two occasions.

      As for the penalty at the end, he kicks him but not a single Brighton player even asked for a penalty. Some nerd who’s never kicked a ball in his life went looking for a penalty to give and found it.

      End of last season I said I was ok with var once there’s improvements but this year they’ve become worse at it, I want it gone or at least used for offsides only. Nothing clear and obvious about a foul that the opposition didn’t even appeal for.
      Davbro
      • Forum Dean Saunders
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #145: Nov 30, 2020 01:12:29 am
      First off I have to say that I am a crap football player who still plays at a non competitive level. I also play defence. Now I have had my eye on the ball and kicked someone by accident. I try to play attackers offside, sometimes successfully and other times not. My point is I BLOODY LOVE playing and watching football. I still feel like a big kid and look after myself so I can continue.
      Now when we talk about VAR you have your pragmatic and your emotional supporter and I try to be both but mostly emotional because I love the game so much. VAR is sucking the joy out of football for the emotional supporter but the pragmatist loves it because it's in the rule book. As we say time and time again how about a compromise and use COMMON SENSE. Offsides should be clear without making lines against and armpit or a pointed arm. It should be advantage to the attacker unless clear cut and measured by the foot. For fouls like Robbo's there should be intent as well as coming togethers. Is it just me or is this really just too hard to achieve. I'm not the most knowledgeable supporter but I know what I want to see....... COMMON  SENSE FOR THE LOVE OF THE GAME.  Sorry for long post but I'm fed up.
      FL Red
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #146: Nov 30, 2020 03:51:48 am
      Mike Riley, head of the Professional Game Match Officials Limited (PGMOL):

      • There will be minimum VAR intervention (maximum benefit, minimum interference)

      • The point is not to re-referee games

      • There will be a high bar for clear and obvious

      • Only overturn a decision if it is clearly wrong

      • There to pick up big missed incidents, not painstakingly search for them


      Don’t think it’s really been implemented as it was intended. Whether we are at the short end of the stick or not (been proven we are) the implementation has gone wrong and should be rethought.
      Scotia
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #147: Nov 30, 2020 10:52:09 am
      VAR is, because of the appalling way it's being used making football an entirely non contact sport.

      Contact is not outlawed in the laws of the game.

      The 2nd penalty on Saturday is a clear case in point.......yes Robbo made contact with Wellbeck BUT it had zero impact on the game and I dont think its even a foul......its a coming together.

      Wellbeck's touch is pony - the ball goes round onto Robbo's left thigh and runs away. Wellbeck could choose to challenge again but instead goes to ground knowing that VAR in current application will identify that there was contact..........

      Its still not  a foul and the contact had no impact on the play. The knowledge of VAR is what changed the pattern of play and that is entirely unacceptable.

      That is rubbish and I would say the same if we were on the upside of the award.....
      ruthcity
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #148: Nov 30, 2020 11:19:44 am
      To me, having an on-the-spot refereeing error is more bearable than someone in a room determining a 50/50 foul or offside into any outcome they like (assuming they go on making decisions unexplained). In those vague situations, they can rule whichever way they like and get away with it (due to non-accountability to fans).

      While you can VAR the players, who is going to VAR the VAR decisions. Explain your VAR call. Let fans see how you made the call. Explain your viewpoint. Have more transparency. As of now, the VAR just “gives you the pass to do whatever you like, rule whichever way you want in vague situations”. And you’d draw a line in a certain way to chalk off a goal for offside. More power to the refs. The game is getting hopeless.
      brezipool
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      Re: VAR has to go
      Reply #149: Nov 30, 2020 11:44:11 am
      mane was offside, was gutting, but it was pretty clear.

      these offsides where its a feckin toenail or an armpit, need to go, it should be advantage to the strikers.

      think it holland? thats brought in fat lines on the var, to allow for real speed of play, I mean ffs, how is a player supposed to know when hes running full pelt hes went a milisecond too soon. ;D.

      Just needs tweaked to have a tolerance, theyre trying to be to exact.

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