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      John Barnes comments.

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      Brian78
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      John Barnes comments.
      Nov 14, 2020 01:19:51 pm
      John Barnes stating that had Jürgen Klopp been black hecwould have been sacked in his first 2 years at Liverpool.

      Thoughts on this?

      For me its getting to the point of ridiculous now. Barnes knows first hand we are not a sacking club and managers in general get time. Dalglish probably the only one who didnt get the time deserved, pretty sure Kenny is white.

      Secondly Klopp arrived with a serious pedigree. Why would the board sack him after 2 seasons into his plan?

      Thirdly. What managers from an African, Caribbean, Asian background have proven themselves worthy of a top job? Barnes certainly didnt. He was a disaster at Celtic. Another always talking about this subject is Campbell, another who has done nothing with his chanced. Ince another.

      Does Barnes want his fellow BAME just put in rolls because they are BAME or whats hus issue here. At grassroots or lower league level if bame are not getting rolls or interviewed for rolls because of skin colour thats a different argument that needs looking at. But coming out making assumptions that had someone been black they would have been sacked is out of order. Hes no evidence to back that claim up.

      While a total of 9 bame managers ever in the premier league is shockingly low has Barnes investigated the following..

      How many bame were interviewed by prem league clubs over the history of the league.

      . Of those overlooked how many white managers who got the job proved to be the correct selection by reaching the goals set out

      . Of those white managers selected over bame who failed to reach goals were sacked as quick as John suggests Klopp would have had he been black..

      . Can John provide a list of bame who have been outstanding in a manager position to suggest a premier league club should hire them?

      9 premier league managers in history, looks bad but so does the record of the 9. Chris Hughton could be argued done a good job. Guillit? Tigana I always felt did a decent job at Fulham. And Santo at Wolves. Rest arguably forgettable.
      « Last Edit: Nov 14, 2020 01:47:29 pm by Brian78 »
      Keith Singleton
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #1: Nov 14, 2020 01:41:38 pm
      I know this, if a white person had said it he/she would be sacked from what ever job they were in.
      Brian78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #2: Nov 14, 2020 01:52:04 pm
      I know this, if a white person had said it he/she would be sacked from what ever job they were in.

      Its the assumption with no evidence. We all know the ignorance thats out there. People of all creeds and backgrounds are discriminated against. Overlooked at once because of colour, nationality orientation or gender. Its disgusting....But what Johns done here is accused a club of holding someone in employment because they were white, had they been black they were gone. He has nothing to back that up.
      Keith Singleton
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #3: Nov 14, 2020 01:59:11 pm
      Its the assumption with no evidence. We all know the ignorance thats out there. People of all creeds and backgrounds are discriminated against. Overlooked at once because of colour, nationality orientation or gender. Its disgusting....But what Johns done here is accused a club of holding someone in employment because they were white, had they been black they were gone. He has nothing to back that up.

      Absolutely Brian. Thing is, he will come out with a apology and think it's ok. Bit like the players who break covid and say they will learn from it.

      I'm still in shock from his comments, this is going to be massive on social media.
      bazspeedman
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #4: Nov 14, 2020 02:00:04 pm
      Silly sensationalist comment from Barnes lacking any context.

      We all know there is a huge disparity in the number of black managers in football. Hopefully there will be more managerial opportunities for men and women of all races from now on.

      But to say a manager would be sacked by Liverpool FC on the basis he is black is just nonsense and does nothing to help the BLM situation.
      Brian78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #5: Nov 14, 2020 02:03:59 pm
      Silly sensationalist comment from Barnes lacking any context.

      We all know there is a huge disparity in the number of black managers in football. Hopefully there will be more managerial opportunities for men and women of all races from now on.

      But to say a manager would be sacked by Liverpool FC on the basis he is black is just nonsense and does nothing to help the BLM situation.

      Agree with this. Its not even that he used us and Klopp its the whole way hes gone about it.

      The only thing to be fair to John is he also references English managers
      « Last Edit: Nov 14, 2020 02:10:37 pm by Brian78 »
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #6: Nov 14, 2020 02:40:51 pm
      Absolutely ridiculous thing for Barnes to say, I lost a lot of respect for him over this, but its natural for some idiotic BAME people to wallow in victimhood at the moment when the media are so intent on pursuing this BLM narrative, which in my opinion is doing far more harm than good to race relations as its pushing a positive discrimination narrative. Just to be clear ALL discrimination is bad it is never positive. Jobs should be awarded purely on merit, I actually think quite a lot of BAME players have been afforded management positions over the years with almost every single one of them being a complete disaster, including John Barnes, but instead of taking responsibility for that they find it easier to claim racism.
      David Wright
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #7: Nov 14, 2020 02:47:46 pm
      Strange comment for John Barnes to make, he should know LFC better than that, as a former player !
      Rush Goalie
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #8: Nov 14, 2020 03:31:29 pm
      Absolute bollocks I'd say. I'm not saying he's not got a point in any case that has ever been but he's way off with this example.
      Klopp almost had a dream start losing League Cup on pens and Europa League final, if anything he's been unlucky losing a CL final and finishing 2nd on 97 pts.
      Regardless of trophies/finals it was obvious to see Jürgen was making progress each year, he was a proven winner in Germany and he's proved it again now, bad example John..
      ConzS
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #9: Nov 14, 2020 03:42:44 pm
      It’s comments like these that really undermines the subject and discredits a lot of the good work done to try overcome these issues. Barnes is doing nobody any favours with these comments and the cynical side of me thinks he is doing this just to make headlines. Maybe missing out on ‘I’m a Celebrity’ deprived of him of the attention he needed.
      billythered
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #10: Nov 14, 2020 03:51:33 pm
      Absolutely ridiculous thing for Barnes to say, I lost a lot of respect for him over this, but its natural for some idiotic BAME people to wallow in victimhood at the moment when the media are so intent on pursuing this BLM narrative, which in my opinion is doing far more harm than good to race relations as its pushing a positive discrimination narrative. Just to be clear ALL discrimination is bad it is never positive. Jobs should be awarded purely on merit, I actually think quite a lot of BAME players have been afforded management positions over the years with almost every single one of them being a complete disaster, including John Barnes, but instead of taking responsibility for that they find it easier to claim racism.





      Not very often I concur with you Heimy but get the bunting out mate because you are absolutely spot on here, love Digger, his views on most subjects are acceptable and normally fair, but he’s way off the mark here, if a player isn’t up to it when it comes to managing a football team it matters not a jot the colour of his skin, you are either good at organising, can coach, train your players, set up different system’s to accommodate the abilities of your player or you f***in can’t , simple as that, it’s got f**k all to do with race,
      There have been plenty of white football managers who have failed down the years, so it’s no different then if you so happen to be black, suggesting that there is some kind of conspiracy theory is ridiculous, we are all aware of the injustice in some quarters and it’s absolutely right that they should be addressed and to a point address the balance but only if those applicants are fit to fill those roles and not because of their skin colour,

      Sorry Digger me old mucker but you are gassing out of your sphincter !



                                                                                  Y  N  W  A
      bigbob75
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #11: Nov 14, 2020 04:13:05 pm
      I’m going to ignore this as he is my hero  :laugh:
      Brian78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #12: Nov 14, 2020 05:03:55 pm
      A hero to many of us. But as John Barnes, John Barnes the footballer, John Barnes the man. Not as John Barnes the black footballer or John Barnes the black man..

      Until we remove colour from the conversation we will always have underlying issues...Im a man, a person, dont class me as a white man
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #13: Nov 14, 2020 06:08:17 pm
      Possibly his own experience at Celtic might have something to do with his view.
      bmck
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #14: Nov 14, 2020 06:35:48 pm
      Just another example of people trying to strong arm their views into any conversation.
      'had Jürgen Klopp been black he would have been sacked in his first 2 years at Liverpool'
      If my Auntie had a cock she'd be my Uncle.
      So f**king what.
      king kenny
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #15: Nov 14, 2020 06:37:16 pm
      Absolute bollocks I'd say. I'm not saying he's not got a point in any case that has ever been but he's way off with this example.
      Klopp almost had a dream start losing League Cup on pens and Europa League final, if anything he's been unlucky losing a CL final and finishing 2nd on 97 pts.
      Regardless of trophies/finals it was obvious to see Jürgen was making progress each year, he was a proven winner in Germany and he's proved it again now, bad example John..

      Totally agree if he wants to make a point he's used the wrong example.   Jürgen has never been in danger of losing his job and it wouldn't have been the case if he was Black or German.  He clearly was the perfect man for the job he was clearly showing progress. 
      Brian78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #16: Nov 14, 2020 06:42:00 pm
      Just another example of people trying to strong arm their views into any conversation.
      'had Jürgen Klopp been black he would have been sacked in his first 2 years at Liverpool'
      If my Auntie had a cock she'd be my Uncle.
      So f**king what.

      What you say is fact, about your aunt if she had a cock. What he said isnt fact its hearsay
      ed603em
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #17: Nov 15, 2020 04:08:38 pm
      He's been saying this for years and it is a direct result of his time at Celtic. His argument is that a successful football manager has a particular profile and that anyone who does not fit this profile is given less time in a job. He is saying that this profile is white and european, so people who are not either of those will not quite be given as long.

      It's his opinion, which he is entitled to, and the rest of us are also entitled to ours. Personally I think the piss-poor results when he was the Celtic manager had much more to do with him only being there for a few months.
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #18: Nov 15, 2020 05:53:41 pm
      He's been saying this for years and it is a direct result of his time at Celtic. His argument is that a successful football manager has a particular profile and that anyone who does not fit this profile is given less time in a job. He is saying that this profile is white and european, so people who are not either of those will not quite be given as long.

      It's his opinion, which he is entitled to, and the rest of us are also entitled to ours. Personally I think the piss-poor results when he was the Celtic manager had much more to do with him only being there for a few months.

      But is Barnes suggesting that if he was chairman he would have fired Klopp?
      GERNS
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #19: Nov 15, 2020 06:01:10 pm
      Digger was a great player. I think he’s still looking for a post player career, as everything he’s attempted since he stopped playing has been an epic fail 🤷‍♂️
      Some will try anything to stay in the spotlight !
      JD
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #20: Nov 16, 2020 12:12:37 am
      John Barnes stating that had Jürgen Klopp been black hecwould have been sacked in his first 2 years at Liverpool.

      Thoughts on this?

      Was there any further context or did he just randomly wake up and say this? Was this an interview or twitter or something else?

      I'm not sure any of us can form an objective opinion based solely on that one liner tbh.
      Brian78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #21: Nov 16, 2020 08:08:24 am
      Quote
      Barnes was speaking in the wake of Greg Clarke's resignation from the FA after calling black footballers 'coloured.'

      John Barnes claims Jürgen Klopp would have been sacked by Liverpool in his first two seasons in charge “if he was black”.

      Klopp took charge at Anfield in October 2015 and led his team to eighth and fourth in his first two Premier League

      And Barnes insists Klopp would have lost his job “under different circumstances”.

      “You can put structures in place, but until you change your perception, nothing will change,’ Barnes told PlayOJO, in the wake of Greg Clarke’s resignation as FA chairman this week after calling black footballers ‘coloured.’

      “I use Klopp as an example,” Barnes continued. “How successful was he really in the first two years in terms of being 25 points off the top? But we [Liverpool] believed that he was the right man.

      “Under different circumstances, he would have lost his job. If he was black, he would have lost his job in those first two years.”

      Barnes also spoke of the discrimination against English managers.

      “If he [Klopp] was English, he would have lost his job,’ said Barnes.

      “This is where the idea of discrimination is a little bit strange because there’s a group of people who are discriminated against in English football and the very highest level in the Premier League.

      “Now, the top six teams will not have a white English manager. Yes, you can say Frank Lampard, as people have pointed out, but that’s because he has a special bond with Chelsea and that’s the only reason he managed Chelsea – but under different circumstances he wouldn’t have got that job.”

      Barnes added that the lack of BAME managers in the English football pyramid is not down to the specifics of the sport itself.

      “It’s nothing to do with black football managers,” he explains. “This is a wider issue because how many black managers are there in the higher echelons of any industry? And why should football be any different?

      “Until we tackle it in society, and we change our perceptions in society, it will exist in all walks of society, which football is one.”

      Quote
      JD
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #22: Nov 16, 2020 09:22:22 am
      Slightly more context there although obviously a bit of a PR thing for the gambling company!

      So he said that after 2 years being 25 points off the top would have seen an English or black manager sacked at Liverpool.

      Sadly I do think the media and a section of fans may well have applied more pressure under those circumstances. Who knows how that would have panned out.

      I think any white person who believes that black people are judged by the exact same standards is lying to themselves.

      Playing staff in the Premier League look completely different to the boardrooms and coaching staff.
      Brian78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #23: Nov 16, 2020 09:36:07 am
      Slightly more context there although obviously a bit of a PR thing for the gambling company!

      So he said that after 2 years being 25 points off the top would have seen an English or black manager sacked at Liverpool.

      Sadly I do think the media and a section of fans may well have applied more pressure under those circumstances. Who knows how that would have panned out.

      I think any white person who believes that black people are judged by the exact same standards is lying to themselves.

      Playing staff in the Premier League look completely different to the boardrooms and coaching staff.

      John, nor anyone else has anything to back up the claim that Liverpool would sack someone sooner based on skin colout.

      No denying this world and football certsinly has issues around discrimination. But that does not allow for sweeping statements. Should a whote coach best man for a job noe be overlooked for a black man because of how society views this issue currently? Likewise should a eoman get a job ahead of a better placed man just to equal out gender balance?

      Is there no premier league black managers just maybe because none out there are good enough? Its going to happen a club will hire a black manager for the wrong reasons not because they are the right person for the job.

      No person of any background is denying issues exist in society but that cant allow for someone like Barnes to come out with statements like that. Was he sacked at Celtic because of his colour ir how he performed in his job?
      Keith Singleton
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #24: Nov 16, 2020 04:53:32 pm
      The likes of Barnes and Cambell being sacked are for one reason. They were sh*te as a manager. PERIOD...
      Isaac!
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #25: Nov 16, 2020 05:38:28 pm
      It's a daft statement from an intelligent man. Maybe his aim was to cause controversy and get people talking about why there aren't more black people in football management. A lot of talent must be going to waste.
      ruthcity
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #26: Nov 17, 2020 10:00:09 am
      The likes of Barnes and Cambell being sacked are for one reason. They were sh*te as a manager. PERIOD...

      It's down to this all day. Delivering the result.

      Sport is all about winning. If you got an excellent win rate, you're never out of job. Sportspeople and fans love winning. Who loves losing? Nobody likes to lose.

      If someone is jobless despite an excellent win rate, then perhaps those reasoning might be valid. But first, get on the winning mode. Otherwise, everything else is secondary.

      Most decent jobs (there are extremes of course) hire people for the outcomes they can deliver anyway, not because of the background or identity of the candidate.
      Kopite78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #27: Nov 17, 2020 10:08:20 am
      It's down to this all day. Delivering the result.

      Sport is all about winning. If you got an excellent win rate, you're never out of job. Sportspeople and fans love winning. Who loves losing? Nobody likes to lose.

      If someone is jobless despite an excellent win rate, then perhaps those reasoning might be valid. But first, get on the winning mode. Otherwise, everything else is secondary.

      Most decent jobs (there are extremes of course) hire people for the outcomes they can deliver anyway, not because of the background or identity of the candidate.

      I agree to an extent, of course results are the ultimate and be all and end all

      However if people think systemic racism doesnt exist in this country they're either , blind to it or part of the problem
      I saw a thread on instagram this morning on the back of the new sainsburys christmas advert
      It's simply disgusting people still hold these views and act like this in 2020
      ruthcity
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #28: Nov 17, 2020 12:48:10 pm
      I agree to an extent, of course results are the ultimate and be all and end all

      However if people think systemic racism doesnt exist in this country they're either , blind to it or part of the problem
      I saw a thread on instagram this morning on the back of the new sainsburys christmas advert
      It's simply disgusting people still hold these views and act like this in 2020

      Well... employers should hire staff based on their ability to deliver, as best practice. More importantly, they should not disregard the candidate’s ability to deliver results and hire based on origin or identity. Equal opportunity employment and fair employment practice.

      And after securing the job, the rest is up to the staff to deliver. And to be fair, no employer likes a staff that consistently underperforms. We know better as fans (like how we want some players or managers out).

      Everything here is should and ideally. But I guess the world is indeed not perfect and everyone is exposed to our own unique situation. Hence differing views.
      reddebs
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #29: Nov 21, 2020 08:21:16 am
      I think the more pertinent conversation should be, if Jürgen was black would he have been given the opportunity at Mainz to develop into a coach good enough to eventually become Liverpool manager.

      It's all well and good talking about only the best should be given the top jobs but if the opportunities way, way, way down the system are limited then very few will rise to the top.

      Thinking about all our backroom staff, analyst's, academy staff and coaches etc can you think of any from a BAME background?
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #30: Nov 21, 2020 11:34:51 am
      I think the more pertinent conversation should be, if Jürgen was black would he have been given the opportunity at Mainz to develop into a coach good enough to eventually become Liverpool manager.

      It's all well and good talking about only the best should be given the top jobs but if the opportunities way, way, way down the system are limited then very few will rise to the top.

      Thinking about all our backroom staff, analyst's, academy staff and coaches etc can you think of any from a BAME background?

      Is there any evidence, in recent times, of BAME candidates being passed over in favour of white candidates, at any level of the game. If so I'd find that very very surprising.

      Until people stop using identity politics to categorise people by colour or religion racism will never end.  Everyone MUST have the same equal opportunities irrespective of race, creed or colour.
      Kopite78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #31: Nov 21, 2020 11:39:31 am
      Is there any evidence, in recent times, of BAME candidates being passed over in favour of white candidates, at any level of the game. If so I'd find that very very surprising.



      I think that's the point and difference between conscious or subconscious racism
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #32: Nov 21, 2020 11:43:40 am
      I think that's the point and difference between conscious or subconscious racism

      What is the difference between conscious and subconscious racism?
      Kopite78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #33: Nov 21, 2020 12:00:54 pm
      What is the difference between conscious and subconscious racism?

      People who are openly racist and people who do subconsciously racist things
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #34: Nov 21, 2020 12:05:21 pm
      People who are openly racist and people who do subconsciously racist things

      How do you tell the difference?
      Kopite78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #35: Nov 21, 2020 12:12:48 pm

      That's the difficulty

      Some people won't even know that they are either subconsciously racist or doing subconsciously racist things

      And that's untimely the point Barnes is trying to make in context and we cant judge really as we haven't walked in his shoes let alone lived in his skin all his life

      For a white man to say subconscious racism doesnt exist or that he hasnt been treated differently in his life because of his skin colour in itself is subconscious racism
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #36: Nov 21, 2020 12:23:04 pm
      That's the difficulty

      Some people won't even know that they are either subconsciously racist or doing subconsciously racist things

      And that's untimely the point Barnes is trying to make in context and we cant judge really as we haven't walked in his shoes let alone lived in his skin all his life

      For a white man to say subconscious racism doesnt exist or that he hasnt been treated differently in his life because of his skin colour in itself is subconscious racism

      Which brings us back to my original point that we need to stop using identity politics to group people by their skin colour. The only way to stop racism is to stop recognising different races, we are all the same.
      Kopite78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #37: Nov 21, 2020 12:25:05 pm
      Which brings us back to my original point that we need to stop using identity politics to group people by their skin colour. The only way to stop racism is to stop recognising different races, we are all the same.

      Completely agree mate

      Unfortunately not everyone does and that's the point the likes of Barnes and others are making

      Someone sent me a thread of messages about the sainsburys christmas advert which features a black family this year if you haven't seen it

      Some of the comments were disgusting. Within in it were numerous examples of conscious and subconscious racism
      Some outwardly being racist
      Some maybe not knowing

      Comments like

      Wheres the whites

      Only 15% of the country is black yet this advert is 100%

      This country doesn't feel like my own anymore

      I can't relate to this







      Absolutely disgusting, I mean the last one,did that same person say the same about the aldi advert or can he relate more to a family of f**king carrots 🤷‍♂️
      « Last Edit: Nov 21, 2020 12:32:42 pm by Kopite78 »
      reddebs
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #38: Nov 21, 2020 01:09:36 pm
      Is there any evidence, in recent times, of BAME candidates being passed over in favour of white candidates, at any level of the game. If so I'd find that very very surprising.

      Until people stop using identity politics to categorise people by colour or religion racism will never end.  Everyone MUST have the same equal opportunities irrespective of race, creed or colour.


      This is a perfect example of subconscious racism.

      You're asking for evidence of racism or inequality, then say we shouldn't put labels on certain groups without which we cant provide evidence yet it clearly happens otherwise every walk of life would be representative.

      People disbelieving not all things are equal are part of the problem.
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #39: Nov 21, 2020 03:57:27 pm
      This is a perfect example of subconscious racism.

      You're asking for evidence of racism or inequality, then say we shouldn't put labels on certain groups without which we cant provide evidence yet it clearly happens otherwise every walk of life would be representative.

      People disbelieving not all things are equal are part of the problem.


      "yet it clearly happens otherwise every walk of life would be representative." sorry but if you insist on sticking to your identity politics then you will have to back that up with some facts, what exactly do you mean by representative, for example how many subgroups are you calculating here, ie is it just white versus the rest, in that case are Jews classed as white, are Eastern Europeans grouped with English etc etc. You see it gets very very complicated very fast if you try to force equality of outcome which is why its stupid and futile to even try. Equality of opportunity should be the goal.

      Can you give me specific examples of any industry or sector of society that has barriers of entry based purely on skin colour, if so then that is a serious issue, but I kind of doubt you can. I am yet to have anyone give me a clear example of systemic racism in this country, and Barnes getting fired because he was a sh*t manager simply does not count!
      Kopite78
      • Guest
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #40: Nov 21, 2020 04:32:49 pm
      "yet it clearly happens otherwise every walk of life would be representative." sorry but if you insist on sticking to your identity politics then you will have to back that up with some facts, what exactly do you mean by representative, for example how many subgroups are you calculating here, ie is it just white versus the rest, in that case are Jews classed as white, are Eastern Europeans grouped with English etc etc. You see it gets very very complicated very fast if you try to force equality of outcome which is why its stupid and futile to even try. Equality of opportunity should be the goal.

      Can you give me specific examples of any industry or sector of society that has barriers of entry based purely on skin colour, if so then that is a serious issue, but I kind of doubt you can. I am yet to have anyone give me a clear example of systemic racism in this country, and Barnes getting fired because he was a sh*t manager simply does not count!

      First part of this is arguing for the sake of arguing

      Second part is a major part of the issue

      All of it shows that you have zero understanding, and probably for the sake of humanity that type should just leave it
      « Last Edit: Nov 21, 2020 04:41:29 pm by Kopite78 »
      heimdall
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
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      • 12,830 posts | 2610 
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #41: Nov 21, 2020 05:17:35 pm
      First part of this is arguing for the sake of arguing

      Second part is a major part of the issue

      All of it shows that you have zero understanding, and probably for the sake of humanity that type should just leave it

      So asking for proof is arguing, is that because you have no actual proof and it's all in your subconscious?

      A big part of the problem around racism is that it's impossible to have a discussion without having insults hurled.

      Btw your kind of dismissive cancel culture attitude is the problem. You will never fix racism that way.
      shawspeed
      • Forum Graeme Souness
      • ***

      • 378 posts | 70 
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #42: Nov 21, 2020 05:24:12 pm
      Which brings us back to my original point that we need to stop using identity politics to group people by their skin colour. The only way to stop racism is to stop recognising different races, we are all the same.

      Unfortunately human nature is to subconsciously tend to like people who are like ourselves.
      Kopite78
      • Guest
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #43: Nov 21, 2020 05:48:46 pm
      So asking for proof is arguing, is that because you have no actual proof and it's all in your subconscious?

      A big part of the problem around racism is that it's impossible to have a discussion without having insults hurled.

      Btw your kind of dismissive cancel culture attitude is the problem. You will never fix racism that way.

      You're asking for proof of something thats impossible to prove, certainly by simple words anyway

      I haven't thrown any insults whatsoever

      Explain your last comment please
      ed603em
      • Forum Roger Hunt
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      • 506 posts | 66 
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #44: Nov 21, 2020 08:03:29 pm
      That's the difficulty

      Some people won't even know that they are either subconsciously racist or doing subconsciously racist things

      And that's untimely the point Barnes is trying to make in context and we cant judge really as we haven't walked in his shoes let alone lived in his skin all his life

      For a white man to say subconscious racism doesnt exist or that he hasnt been treated differently in his life because of his skin colour in itself is subconscious racism

      Yep, 100% correct there. I can't remember the specifics, but there was a music orchestra somewhere in the USA who were appointing more white people than black people when compared to the balance of those who audtioned ... anyway, they did an experiment and got the musicians to audition behind a screen so the judges couldn't see them and the proportion of black people they appointed increased a lot. It was entirely sub-conscious, but it was definitely there beforehand.
      ed603em
      • Forum Roger Hunt
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      • 506 posts | 66 
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #45: Nov 21, 2020 08:10:11 pm
      Can you give me specific examples of any industry or sector of society that has barriers of entry based purely on skin colour, if so then that is a serious issue, but I kind of doubt you can. I am yet to have anyone give me a clear example of systemic racism in this country, and Barnes getting fired because he was a sh*t manager simply does not count!
      Raheem Sterling highlighted very well recently when he showed how newspapers reported Phil Foden and Tosin Adarabioyo buying homes. Both very similar stories but were reported in very different ways.
      sore monad
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
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      • 1,226 posts | 263 
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #46: Nov 21, 2020 08:44:07 pm
      People get very touchy on this subject. Barnes is not having a go at LFC, or absurdly saying that Jürgen only kept his job cos he is white. He is saying that black managers don't get the same chance in professional football in general. Which is statistically clearly true.

      Unconscious bias is a fact of life. Black people are not well represented at the top of football, and the conscious or unconscious bias of people that currently own and control football clubs does come through to some degree in their management recruitment (and tolerance/perception of success or failure in those they do appoint).
      The idea that it is a pure meritocracy is overlooking basic, well known facts of human nature (at least at the current level of development of that nature). Racial prejudice still exists (not as bad as it used to be, and it is getting less, but it still exists), and of course that comes through in effects on recruitment to top jobs in football as in other industries.
      Guruji
      • Forum Dean Saunders
      • *

      • 63 posts | 55 
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #47: Nov 22, 2020 12:17:32 am
      I think sometimes the proof can be visible in daylight, but you just need to take a deeper look to see it. Certainly if you take the view that "if you are good enough, you will get the job" why is it that we continually see the same cycle of managers at the lower end of the Premier League, who all achieve the same average or below average results, play dinosaur football and inevitably get sacked before getting another job at the same level a while later? I'm talking your Allardyce's, Hodgson's, Moyes', Pardew's, Warnock's, etc. Do you really think deep down there are no younger talented managers below these people who have enough ability/ambition to get through to the top?

      Why is that Stevie's first gig is at Rangers, or that Lampard is now at Chelsea having taken Derby from 6th to 6th in the Championship, yet I have never seen an elite black ex-player manage a top club in my lifetime? Is it that they just don't want to go into management generally, or is there something clearly more to it?

      It's a similar case with referees as well. Whilst there is some club bias involved, it is widely agreed across fanbases that the standard of refereeing at the elite level in this country is abysmal. Yet again though, we just see the same faces over and over. Is the pool of officiating so thin that this is truly the best we can find?
      Shabs
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
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      • 25,400 posts | 3630 
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #48: Nov 22, 2020 04:13:57 pm
      "yet it clearly happens otherwise every walk of life would be representative." sorry but if you insist on sticking to your identity politics then you will have to back that up with some facts, what exactly do you mean by representative, for example how many subgroups are you calculating here, ie is it just white versus the rest, in that case are Jews classed as white, are Eastern Europeans grouped with English etc etc. You see it gets very very complicated very fast if you try to force equality of outcome which is why its stupid and futile to even try. Equality of opportunity should be the goal.

      Can you give me specific examples of any industry or sector of society that has barriers of entry based purely on skin colour, if so then that is a serious issue, but I kind of doubt you can. I am yet to have anyone give me a clear example of systemic racism in this country, and Barnes getting fired because he was a sh*t manager simply does not count!

      Does the Royal family count & the treatment of Meghan Markle from the right wing rags..?

      Joey B
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
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      • 1,629 posts | 37 
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #49: Nov 22, 2020 05:15:58 pm
      As a “ reveared” player at this club.JB’s comments leave me almost speechless.
      What next?
      FL Red
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
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      • 25,224 posts | 3989 
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #50: Nov 23, 2020 03:23:52 am
      I would hope no one ever gave me special consideration due to the color of my skin. I don’t know if that’s ever been the case but I hope it’s not. That said, I can only do my best to make sure I’m cognizant to never give anyone special consideration based on anything other than merit.

      I disagree with what Barnes said about Klopp, I don’t think it matters what color Klopp’s skin is, I think he was given the consideration he was given because of what he’s done in the past and the person that he’s known to be. I believe I know what point Barnes was attempting to make, he just didn’t make his point very well unfortunately.
      Keith Singleton
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
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      • Sir Lewis Hamilton
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #51: Nov 23, 2020 08:16:47 am
      I would hope no one ever gave me special consideration due to the color of my skin. I don’t know if that’s ever been the case but I hope it’s not.

      Well if it wasn't it certainly possible now.  Diversity is fine and nothing wrong with that. However, judging by some of the new pundits / commentators that have come into our sport, I have serious doubts.
      Kopite78
      • Guest
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #52: Nov 23, 2020 08:18:03 am
      Well if it wasn't it certainly possible now.  Diversity is fine and nothing wrong with that. However, judging by some of the new pundits / commentators that have come into our sport, I have serious doubts.

      Expand on what you mean Keith

      Who you not happy with?
      billythered
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
      • *****

      • 7,601 posts | 2752 
      • From Doubters to Champions of the World
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #53: Dec 05, 2020 10:50:37 am
      I was looking for a thread to put the following in, couldn’t find one but this one seems most appropriate....


      ... I watched the Anton Ferdinand documentary on bbc iplayer last night , Football,Racism & me, I know the subject is old hat but this doc is his account of what actually took place, I’m sure most of you know the story of how a certain England Captain going by the name of John Terry racially abused Ferdinand during a match between QPR & Chelsea, I knew something had gone on way back then but for some reason choose to ignore it as just another red top headline, I hadn’t seen any of the footage shown last night before and I have to say I was shocked and horrified, you can actually lip read Terry mouthing ‘F**k off, you black c**t’

      Now in the doc, Anton admits he and Terry had clashed just before it in a off the ball incident and that Anton gave Terry some personal abuse designed to rile him, that is shown too, and you can see the pair chucking their gums, and then the footage of Terry mouthing off his obscenity, this is the England captain we’re talking about(at the time) a stalwart of Englishness trusted to lead his peers for England in international duties, and representing his country,

      Yet, he got off with a paltry fine and basically gave license to abuse non white players forever and a day, and this is the same John Terry seen taking the knee supposedly supporting BLM, which Anton quite rightfully points out, in the doc, both Anton & Terry were interviewed by the same representative from the FA, Anton told us that after his interview he felt like he was the guilty party and the questions asked were a form of interrogation rather being a formal chat, he was given a recording (or part thereof) to listen to of Terry’s interview and it is totally different to that of Anton’s, it was more like a friendly chat rather than a formal serious interview , the FA refused to release any recordings of Anton’s interview, ( I wonder why),

      It all ends up in the courtroom which Anton did not want, and the legal eagles with their establishment ethos( we all know what that’s about don’t we ?) decide that Terry done nowt wrong,

      After all the Tooing’s & fro’ings and some of the settling of dust, Anton still offers Terry a olive branch, this is in amongst all the latest upheaval we have seen regarding the Black Lives Matter campaign & after seeing Terry take the knee, Anton explains how he feels about it but he’s not bitter he believes that if John Terry really supports BLM then he should come out a talk about it, and I think he is right, because if we are to eradicate totally the racist’s from the game this is the kind of opportunity that is as powerful as taking the knee if not more.......John Terry refused Anton’s olive branch....that says more than any words required to explain what kind of man he is and what he clearly stands for....and further more he is representative of the football association he is employed by ! !


      I hope that the powers at be consider /remind themselves that there is a very serious problem within our game STILL, and that the actions of certain individuals within the game impacts on the future of our beloved sport in who and how we represent the game in equality and from all diversities, that will never happen so long as you have your John Terry’s around.




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      GERNS
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
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      • 8,852 posts | 772 
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #54: Dec 05, 2020 02:58:17 pm
      I fully agree that John Terry’s remark was and is unacceptable, but can you tell me, would we all still be talking about it if Anton had called Terry a white c**t. ?

      Don’t get me wrong, I think Terry got away with what was the clearest example of racist abuse, and should have been dealt with immediately by the chickens at the FA. They in turn were as guilty as Terry by their lack of action.
      Suarez got hung out to dry when there was no evidence, just the voice of Evra!
      And just to add, I f**king hate John Terry with a vengeance.

      Also, I’ve taken some pretty harsh abuse off black guys in the past, and nobody flinches. I say the word ‘black’ when giving it back snd everyone walks round open mouthed like I was a serial killer !
      Need to keep this all in perspective, I think it’s going too far.
      Only my opinion though.
      HUYTON RED
      • Forum Legend - Shankly
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      • 31,656 posts | 4802 
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #55: Dec 05, 2020 03:13:44 pm
      I fully agree that John Terry’s remark was and is unacceptable, but can you tell me, would we all still be talking about it if Anton had called Terry a white c**t. ?

      Don’t get me wrong, I think Terry got away with what was the clearest example of racist abuse, and should have been dealt with immediately by the chickens at the FA. They in turn were as guilty as Terry by their lack of action.
      Suarez got hung out to dry when there was no evidence, just the voice of Evra!
      And just to add, I f**king hate John Terry with a vengeance.

      Also, I’ve taken some pretty harsh abuse off black guys in the past, and nobody flinches. I say the word ‘black’ when giving it back snd everyone walks round open mouthed like I was a serial killer !
      Need to keep this all in perspective, I think it’s going too far.
      Only my opinion though.

      People forget when that Chelsea c**t racially abused Ledley King calling him a "f**king black b***ard" caught on camera on a live Sky Super Sunday game when no one said a thing. Don't feel aggrieved for Terry, the c**t's got form.
      what-a-hit-son
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
      • ******
      • 14,813 posts | 3738 
      • @MrPrice1979
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #56: Dec 06, 2020 08:36:20 am
      I was looking for a thread to put the following in, couldn’t find one but this one seems most appropriate....


      ... I watched the Anton Ferdinand documentary on bbc iplayer last night , Football,Racism & me, I know the subject is old hat but this doc is his account of what actually took place, I’m sure most of you know the story of how a certain England Captain going by the name of John Terry racially abused Ferdinand during a match between QPR & Chelsea, I knew something had gone on way back then but for some reason choose to ignore it as just another red top headline, I hadn’t seen any of the footage shown last night before and I have to say I was shocked and horrified, you can actually lip read Terry mouthing ‘F**k off, you black c**t’

      Now in the doc, Anton admits he and Terry had clashed just before it in a off the ball incident and that Anton gave Terry some personal abuse designed to rile him, that is shown too, and you can see the pair chucking their gums, and then the footage of Terry mouthing off his obscenity, this is the England captain we’re talking about(at the time) a stalwart of Englishness trusted to lead his peers for England in international duties, and representing his country,

      Yet, he got off with a paltry fine and basically gave license to abuse non white players forever and a day, and this is the same John Terry seen taking the knee supposedly supporting BLM, which Anton quite rightfully points out, in the doc, both Anton & Terry were interviewed by the same representative from the FA, Anton told us that after his interview he felt like he was the guilty party and the questions asked were a form of interrogation rather being a formal chat, he was given a recording (or part thereof) to listen to of Terry’s interview and it is totally different to that of Anton’s, it was more like a friendly chat rather than a formal serious interview , the FA refused to release any recordings of Anton’s interview, ( I wonder why),

      It all ends up in the courtroom which Anton did not want, and the legal eagles with their establishment ethos( we all know what that’s about don’t we ?) decide that Terry done nowt wrong,

      After all the Tooing’s & fro’ings and some of the settling of dust, Anton still offers Terry a olive branch, this is in amongst all the latest upheaval we have seen regarding the Black Lives Matter campaign & after seeing Terry take the knee, Anton explains how he feels about it but he’s not bitter he believes that if John Terry really supports BLM then he should come out a talk about it, and I think he is right, because if we are to eradicate totally the racist’s from the game this is the kind of opportunity that is as powerful as taking the knee if not more.......John Terry refused Anton’s olive branch....that says more than any words required to explain what kind of man he is and what he clearly stands for....and further more he is representative of the football association he is employed by ! !


      I hope that the powers at be consider /remind themselves that there is a very serious problem within our game STILL, and that the actions of certain individuals within the game impacts on the future of our beloved sport in who and how we represent the game in equality and from all diversities, that will never happen so long as you have your John Terry’s around.




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      I haven't watched it, Bill, but can imagine. The Suarez/Evra and Terry/Ferdinand things are what cemented my hate for The FA, and ultimately, the national football team. Ran by a gang of horrible and corrupt cu*ts of the lowest order.

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