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      John Barnes comments.

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      Isaac!
      • Forum Geoff Strong
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #25: Nov 16, 2020 05:38:28 pm
      It's a daft statement from an intelligent man. Maybe his aim was to cause controversy and get people talking about why there aren't more black people in football management. A lot of talent must be going to waste.
      ruthcity
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #26: Nov 17, 2020 10:00:09 am
      The likes of Barnes and Cambell being sacked are for one reason. They were sh*te as a manager. PERIOD...

      It's down to this all day. Delivering the result.

      Sport is all about winning. If you got an excellent win rate, you're never out of job. Sportspeople and fans love winning. Who loves losing? Nobody likes to lose.

      If someone is jobless despite an excellent win rate, then perhaps those reasoning might be valid. But first, get on the winning mode. Otherwise, everything else is secondary.

      Most decent jobs (there are extremes of course) hire people for the outcomes they can deliver anyway, not because of the background or identity of the candidate.
      Kopite78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #27: Nov 17, 2020 10:08:20 am
      It's down to this all day. Delivering the result.

      Sport is all about winning. If you got an excellent win rate, you're never out of job. Sportspeople and fans love winning. Who loves losing? Nobody likes to lose.

      If someone is jobless despite an excellent win rate, then perhaps those reasoning might be valid. But first, get on the winning mode. Otherwise, everything else is secondary.

      Most decent jobs (there are extremes of course) hire people for the outcomes they can deliver anyway, not because of the background or identity of the candidate.

      I agree to an extent, of course results are the ultimate and be all and end all

      However if people think systemic racism doesnt exist in this country they're either , blind to it or part of the problem
      I saw a thread on instagram this morning on the back of the new sainsburys christmas advert
      It's simply disgusting people still hold these views and act like this in 2020
      ruthcity
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #28: Nov 17, 2020 12:48:10 pm
      I agree to an extent, of course results are the ultimate and be all and end all

      However if people think systemic racism doesnt exist in this country they're either , blind to it or part of the problem
      I saw a thread on instagram this morning on the back of the new sainsburys christmas advert
      It's simply disgusting people still hold these views and act like this in 2020

      Well... employers should hire staff based on their ability to deliver, as best practice. More importantly, they should not disregard the candidate’s ability to deliver results and hire based on origin or identity. Equal opportunity employment and fair employment practice.

      And after securing the job, the rest is up to the staff to deliver. And to be fair, no employer likes a staff that consistently underperforms. We know better as fans (like how we want some players or managers out).

      Everything here is should and ideally. But I guess the world is indeed not perfect and everyone is exposed to our own unique situation. Hence differing views.
      reddebs
      • "LFC Hipster"
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #29: Nov 21, 2020 08:21:16 am
      I think the more pertinent conversation should be, if Jürgen was black would he have been given the opportunity at Mainz to develop into a coach good enough to eventually become Liverpool manager.

      It's all well and good talking about only the best should be given the top jobs but if the opportunities way, way, way down the system are limited then very few will rise to the top.

      Thinking about all our backroom staff, analyst's, academy staff and coaches etc can you think of any from a BAME background?
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #30: Nov 21, 2020 11:34:51 am
      I think the more pertinent conversation should be, if Jürgen was black would he have been given the opportunity at Mainz to develop into a coach good enough to eventually become Liverpool manager.

      It's all well and good talking about only the best should be given the top jobs but if the opportunities way, way, way down the system are limited then very few will rise to the top.

      Thinking about all our backroom staff, analyst's, academy staff and coaches etc can you think of any from a BAME background?

      Is there any evidence, in recent times, of BAME candidates being passed over in favour of white candidates, at any level of the game. If so I'd find that very very surprising.

      Until people stop using identity politics to categorise people by colour or religion racism will never end.  Everyone MUST have the same equal opportunities irrespective of race, creed or colour.
      Kopite78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #31: Nov 21, 2020 11:39:31 am
      Is there any evidence, in recent times, of BAME candidates being passed over in favour of white candidates, at any level of the game. If so I'd find that very very surprising.



      I think that's the point and difference between conscious or subconscious racism
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #32: Nov 21, 2020 11:43:40 am
      I think that's the point and difference between conscious or subconscious racism

      What is the difference between conscious and subconscious racism?
      Kopite78
      • Guest
      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #33: Nov 21, 2020 12:00:54 pm
      What is the difference between conscious and subconscious racism?

      People who are openly racist and people who do subconsciously racist things
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #34: Nov 21, 2020 12:05:21 pm
      People who are openly racist and people who do subconsciously racist things

      How do you tell the difference?
      Kopite78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #35: Nov 21, 2020 12:12:48 pm

      That's the difficulty

      Some people won't even know that they are either subconsciously racist or doing subconsciously racist things

      And that's untimely the point Barnes is trying to make in context and we cant judge really as we haven't walked in his shoes let alone lived in his skin all his life

      For a white man to say subconscious racism doesnt exist or that he hasnt been treated differently in his life because of his skin colour in itself is subconscious racism
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #36: Nov 21, 2020 12:23:04 pm
      That's the difficulty

      Some people won't even know that they are either subconsciously racist or doing subconsciously racist things

      And that's untimely the point Barnes is trying to make in context and we cant judge really as we haven't walked in his shoes let alone lived in his skin all his life

      For a white man to say subconscious racism doesnt exist or that he hasnt been treated differently in his life because of his skin colour in itself is subconscious racism

      Which brings us back to my original point that we need to stop using identity politics to group people by their skin colour. The only way to stop racism is to stop recognising different races, we are all the same.
      Kopite78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #37: Nov 21, 2020 12:25:05 pm
      Which brings us back to my original point that we need to stop using identity politics to group people by their skin colour. The only way to stop racism is to stop recognising different races, we are all the same.

      Completely agree mate

      Unfortunately not everyone does and that's the point the likes of Barnes and others are making

      Someone sent me a thread of messages about the sainsburys christmas advert which features a black family this year if you haven't seen it

      Some of the comments were disgusting. Within in it were numerous examples of conscious and subconscious racism
      Some outwardly being racist
      Some maybe not knowing

      Comments like

      Wheres the whites

      Only 15% of the country is black yet this advert is 100%

      This country doesn't feel like my own anymore

      I can't relate to this







      Absolutely disgusting, I mean the last one,did that same person say the same about the aldi advert or can he relate more to a family of f**king carrots 🤷‍♂️
      « Last Edit: Nov 21, 2020 12:32:42 pm by Kopite78 »
      reddebs
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #38: Nov 21, 2020 01:09:36 pm
      Is there any evidence, in recent times, of BAME candidates being passed over in favour of white candidates, at any level of the game. If so I'd find that very very surprising.

      Until people stop using identity politics to categorise people by colour or religion racism will never end.  Everyone MUST have the same equal opportunities irrespective of race, creed or colour.


      This is a perfect example of subconscious racism.

      You're asking for evidence of racism or inequality, then say we shouldn't put labels on certain groups without which we cant provide evidence yet it clearly happens otherwise every walk of life would be representative.

      People disbelieving not all things are equal are part of the problem.
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #39: Nov 21, 2020 03:57:27 pm
      This is a perfect example of subconscious racism.

      You're asking for evidence of racism or inequality, then say we shouldn't put labels on certain groups without which we cant provide evidence yet it clearly happens otherwise every walk of life would be representative.

      People disbelieving not all things are equal are part of the problem.


      "yet it clearly happens otherwise every walk of life would be representative." sorry but if you insist on sticking to your identity politics then you will have to back that up with some facts, what exactly do you mean by representative, for example how many subgroups are you calculating here, ie is it just white versus the rest, in that case are Jews classed as white, are Eastern Europeans grouped with English etc etc. You see it gets very very complicated very fast if you try to force equality of outcome which is why its stupid and futile to even try. Equality of opportunity should be the goal.

      Can you give me specific examples of any industry or sector of society that has barriers of entry based purely on skin colour, if so then that is a serious issue, but I kind of doubt you can. I am yet to have anyone give me a clear example of systemic racism in this country, and Barnes getting fired because he was a sh*t manager simply does not count!
      Kopite78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #40: Nov 21, 2020 04:32:49 pm
      "yet it clearly happens otherwise every walk of life would be representative." sorry but if you insist on sticking to your identity politics then you will have to back that up with some facts, what exactly do you mean by representative, for example how many subgroups are you calculating here, ie is it just white versus the rest, in that case are Jews classed as white, are Eastern Europeans grouped with English etc etc. You see it gets very very complicated very fast if you try to force equality of outcome which is why its stupid and futile to even try. Equality of opportunity should be the goal.

      Can you give me specific examples of any industry or sector of society that has barriers of entry based purely on skin colour, if so then that is a serious issue, but I kind of doubt you can. I am yet to have anyone give me a clear example of systemic racism in this country, and Barnes getting fired because he was a sh*t manager simply does not count!

      First part of this is arguing for the sake of arguing

      Second part is a major part of the issue

      All of it shows that you have zero understanding, and probably for the sake of humanity that type should just leave it
      « Last Edit: Nov 21, 2020 04:41:29 pm by Kopite78 »
      heimdall
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #41: Nov 21, 2020 05:17:35 pm
      First part of this is arguing for the sake of arguing

      Second part is a major part of the issue

      All of it shows that you have zero understanding, and probably for the sake of humanity that type should just leave it

      So asking for proof is arguing, is that because you have no actual proof and it's all in your subconscious?

      A big part of the problem around racism is that it's impossible to have a discussion without having insults hurled.

      Btw your kind of dismissive cancel culture attitude is the problem. You will never fix racism that way.
      shawspeed
      • Forum Graeme Souness
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #42: Nov 21, 2020 05:24:12 pm
      Which brings us back to my original point that we need to stop using identity politics to group people by their skin colour. The only way to stop racism is to stop recognising different races, we are all the same.

      Unfortunately human nature is to subconsciously tend to like people who are like ourselves.
      Kopite78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #43: Nov 21, 2020 05:48:46 pm
      So asking for proof is arguing, is that because you have no actual proof and it's all in your subconscious?

      A big part of the problem around racism is that it's impossible to have a discussion without having insults hurled.

      Btw your kind of dismissive cancel culture attitude is the problem. You will never fix racism that way.

      You're asking for proof of something thats impossible to prove, certainly by simple words anyway

      I haven't thrown any insults whatsoever

      Explain your last comment please
      ed603em
      • Forum Roger Hunt
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #44: Nov 21, 2020 08:03:29 pm
      That's the difficulty

      Some people won't even know that they are either subconsciously racist or doing subconsciously racist things

      And that's untimely the point Barnes is trying to make in context and we cant judge really as we haven't walked in his shoes let alone lived in his skin all his life

      For a white man to say subconscious racism doesnt exist or that he hasnt been treated differently in his life because of his skin colour in itself is subconscious racism

      Yep, 100% correct there. I can't remember the specifics, but there was a music orchestra somewhere in the USA who were appointing more white people than black people when compared to the balance of those who audtioned ... anyway, they did an experiment and got the musicians to audition behind a screen so the judges couldn't see them and the proportion of black people they appointed increased a lot. It was entirely sub-conscious, but it was definitely there beforehand.
      ed603em
      • Forum Roger Hunt
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #45: Nov 21, 2020 08:10:11 pm
      Can you give me specific examples of any industry or sector of society that has barriers of entry based purely on skin colour, if so then that is a serious issue, but I kind of doubt you can. I am yet to have anyone give me a clear example of systemic racism in this country, and Barnes getting fired because he was a sh*t manager simply does not count!
      Raheem Sterling highlighted very well recently when he showed how newspapers reported Phil Foden and Tosin Adarabioyo buying homes. Both very similar stories but were reported in very different ways.
      sore monad
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #46: Nov 21, 2020 08:44:07 pm
      People get very touchy on this subject. Barnes is not having a go at LFC, or absurdly saying that Jürgen only kept his job cos he is white. He is saying that black managers don't get the same chance in professional football in general. Which is statistically clearly true.

      Unconscious bias is a fact of life. Black people are not well represented at the top of football, and the conscious or unconscious bias of people that currently own and control football clubs does come through to some degree in their management recruitment (and tolerance/perception of success or failure in those they do appoint).
      The idea that it is a pure meritocracy is overlooking basic, well known facts of human nature (at least at the current level of development of that nature). Racial prejudice still exists (not as bad as it used to be, and it is getting less, but it still exists), and of course that comes through in effects on recruitment to top jobs in football as in other industries.
      Guruji
      • Forum Dean Saunders
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #47: Nov 22, 2020 12:17:32 am
      I think sometimes the proof can be visible in daylight, but you just need to take a deeper look to see it. Certainly if you take the view that "if you are good enough, you will get the job" why is it that we continually see the same cycle of managers at the lower end of the Premier League, who all achieve the same average or below average results, play dinosaur football and inevitably get sacked before getting another job at the same level a while later? I'm talking your Allardyce's, Hodgson's, Moyes', Pardew's, Warnock's, etc. Do you really think deep down there are no younger talented managers below these people who have enough ability/ambition to get through to the top?

      Why is that Stevie's first gig is at Rangers, or that Lampard is now at Chelsea having taken Derby from 6th to 6th in the Championship, yet I have never seen an elite black ex-player manage a top club in my lifetime? Is it that they just don't want to go into management generally, or is there something clearly more to it?

      It's a similar case with referees as well. Whilst there is some club bias involved, it is widely agreed across fanbases that the standard of refereeing at the elite level in this country is abysmal. Yet again though, we just see the same faces over and over. Is the pool of officiating so thin that this is truly the best we can find?
      Shabs
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #48: Nov 22, 2020 04:13:57 pm
      "yet it clearly happens otherwise every walk of life would be representative." sorry but if you insist on sticking to your identity politics then you will have to back that up with some facts, what exactly do you mean by representative, for example how many subgroups are you calculating here, ie is it just white versus the rest, in that case are Jews classed as white, are Eastern Europeans grouped with English etc etc. You see it gets very very complicated very fast if you try to force equality of outcome which is why its stupid and futile to even try. Equality of opportunity should be the goal.

      Can you give me specific examples of any industry or sector of society that has barriers of entry based purely on skin colour, if so then that is a serious issue, but I kind of doubt you can. I am yet to have anyone give me a clear example of systemic racism in this country, and Barnes getting fired because he was a sh*t manager simply does not count!

      Does the Royal family count & the treatment of Meghan Markle from the right wing rags..?

      Joey B
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #49: Nov 22, 2020 05:15:58 pm
      As a “ reveared” player at this club.JB’s comments leave me almost speechless.
      What next?

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