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      John Barnes comments.

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      sore monad
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #46: Nov 21, 2020 08:44:07 pm
      People get very touchy on this subject. Barnes is not having a go at LFC, or absurdly saying that JĆ¼rgen only kept his job cos he is white. He is saying that black managers don't get the same chance in professional football in general. Which is statistically clearly true.

      Unconscious bias is a fact of life. Black people are not well represented at the top of football, and the conscious or unconscious bias of people that currently own and control football clubs does come through to some degree in their management recruitment (and tolerance/perception of success or failure in those they do appoint).
      The idea that it is a pure meritocracy is overlooking basic, well known facts of human nature (at least at the current level of development of that nature). Racial prejudice still exists (not as bad as it used to be, and it is getting less, but it still exists), and of course that comes through in effects on recruitment to top jobs in football as in other industries.
      Guruji
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #47: Nov 22, 2020 12:17:32 am
      I think sometimes the proof can be visible in daylight, but you just need to take a deeper look to see it. Certainly if you take the view that "if you are good enough, you will get the job" why is it that we continually see the same cycle of managers at the lower end of the Premier League, who all achieve the same average or below average results, play dinosaur football and inevitably get sacked before getting another job at the same level a while later? I'm talking your Allardyce's, Hodgson's, Moyes', Pardew's, Warnock's, etc. Do you really think deep down there are no younger talented managers below these people who have enough ability/ambition to get through to the top?

      Why is that Stevie's first gig is at Rangers, or that Lampard is now at Chelsea having taken Derby from 6th to 6th in the Championship, yet I have never seen an elite black ex-player manage a top club in my lifetime? Is it that they just don't want to go into management generally, or is there something clearly more to it?

      It's a similar case with referees as well. Whilst there is some club bias involved, it is widely agreed across fanbases that the standard of refereeing at the elite level in this country is abysmal. Yet again though, we just see the same faces over and over. Is the pool of officiating so thin that this is truly the best we can find?
      shabbadoo
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #48: Nov 22, 2020 04:13:57 pm
      "yet it clearly happens otherwise every walk of life would be representative." sorry but if you insist on sticking to your identity politics then you will have to back that up with some facts, what exactly do you mean by representative, for example how many subgroups are you calculating here, ie is it just white versus the rest, in that case are Jews classed as white, are Eastern Europeans grouped with English etc etc. You see it gets very very complicated very fast if you try to force equality of outcome which is why its stupid and futile to even try. Equality of opportunity should be the goal.

      Can you give me specific examples of any industry or sector of society that has barriers of entry based purely on skin colour, if so then that is a serious issue, but I kind of doubt you can. I am yet to have anyone give me a clear example of systemic racism in this country, and Barnes getting fired because he was a sh*t manager simply does not count!

      Does the Royal family count & the treatment of Meghan Markle from the right wing rags..?

      Joey B
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #49: Nov 22, 2020 05:15:58 pm
      As a ā€œ revearedā€ player at this club.JBā€™s comments leave me almost speechless.
      What next?
      FL Red
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #50: Nov 23, 2020 03:23:52 am
      I would hope no one ever gave me special consideration due to the color of my skin. I donā€™t know if thatā€™s ever been the case but I hope itā€™s not. That said, I can only do my best to make sure Iā€™m cognizant to never give anyone special consideration based on anything other than merit.

      I disagree with what Barnes said about Klopp, I donā€™t think it matters what color Kloppā€™s skin is, I think he was given the consideration he was given because of what heā€™s done in the past and the person that heā€™s known to be. I believe I know what point Barnes was attempting to make, he just didnā€™t make his point very well unfortunately.
      Keith Singleton
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #51: Nov 23, 2020 08:16:47 am
      I would hope no one ever gave me special consideration due to the color of my skin. I donā€™t know if thatā€™s ever been the case but I hope itā€™s not.

      Well if it wasn't it certainly possible now.  Diversity is fine and nothing wrong with that. However, judging by some of the new pundits / commentators that have come into our sport, I have serious doubts.
      Kopite78
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #52: Nov 23, 2020 08:18:03 am
      Well if it wasn't it certainly possible now.  Diversity is fine and nothing wrong with that. However, judging by some of the new pundits / commentators that have come into our sport, I have serious doubts.

      Expand on what you mean Keith

      Who you not happy with?
      billythered
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #53: Dec 05, 2020 10:50:37 am
      I was looking for a thread to put the following in, couldnā€™t find one but this one seems most appropriate....


      ... I watched the Anton Ferdinand documentary on bbc iplayer last night , Football,Racism & me, I know the subject is old hat but this doc is his account of what actually took place, Iā€™m sure most of you know the story of how a certain England Captain going by the name of John Terry racially abused Ferdinand during a match between QPR & Chelsea, I knew something had gone on way back then but for some reason choose to ignore it as just another red top headline, I hadnā€™t seen any of the footage shown last night before and I have to say I was shocked and horrified, you can actually lip read Terry mouthing ā€˜F**k off, you black c**tā€™

      Now in the doc, Anton admits he and Terry had clashed just before it in a off the ball incident and that Anton gave Terry some personal abuse designed to rile him, that is shown too, and you can see the pair chucking their gums, and then the footage of Terry mouthing off his obscenity, this is the England captain weā€™re talking about(at the time) a stalwart of Englishness trusted to lead his peers for England in international duties, and representing his country,

      Yet, he got off with a paltry fine and basically gave license to abuse non white players forever and a day, and this is the same John Terry seen taking the knee supposedly supporting BLM, which Anton quite rightfully points out, in the doc, both Anton & Terry were interviewed by the same representative from the FA, Anton told us that after his interview he felt like he was the guilty party and the questions asked were a form of interrogation rather being a formal chat, he was given a recording (or part thereof) to listen to of Terryā€™s interview and it is totally different to that of Antonā€™s, it was more like a friendly chat rather than a formal serious interview , the FA refused to release any recordings of Antonā€™s interview, ( I wonder why),

      It all ends up in the courtroom which Anton did not want, and the legal eagles with their establishment ethos( we all know what thatā€™s about donā€™t we ?) decide that Terry done nowt wrong,

      After all the Tooingā€™s & froā€™ings and some of the settling of dust, Anton still offers Terry a olive branch, this is in amongst all the latest upheaval we have seen regarding the Black Lives Matter campaign & after seeing Terry take the knee, Anton explains how he feels about it but heā€™s not bitter he believes that if John Terry really supports BLM then he should come out a talk about it, and I think he is right, because if we are to eradicate totally the racistā€™s from the game this is the kind of opportunity that is as powerful as taking the knee if not more.......John Terry refused Antonā€™s olive branch....that says more than any words required to explain what kind of man he is and what he clearly stands for....and further more he is representative of the football association he is employed by ! !


      I hope that the powers at be consider /remind themselves that there is a very serious problem within our game STILL, and that the actions of certain individuals within the game impacts on the future of our beloved sport in who and how we represent the game in equality and from all diversities, that will never happen so long as you have your John Terryā€™s around.




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      GERNS
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #54: Dec 05, 2020 02:58:17 pm
      I fully agree that John Terryā€™s remark was and is unacceptable, but can you tell me, would we all still be talking about it if Anton had called Terry a white c**t. ?

      Donā€™t get me wrong, I think Terry got away with what was the clearest example of racist abuse, and should have been dealt with immediately by the chickens at the FA. They in turn were as guilty as Terry by their lack of action.
      Suarez got hung out to dry when there was no evidence, just the voice of Evra!
      And just to add, I F***ing hate John Terry with a vengeance.

      Also, Iā€™ve taken some pretty harsh abuse off black guys in the past, and nobody flinches. I say the word ā€˜blackā€™ when giving it back snd everyone walks round open mouthed like I was a serial killer !
      Need to keep this all in perspective, I think itā€™s going too far.
      Only my opinion though.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #55: Dec 05, 2020 03:13:44 pm
      I fully agree that John Terryā€™s remark was and is unacceptable, but can you tell me, would we all still be talking about it if Anton had called Terry a white c**t. ?

      Donā€™t get me wrong, I think Terry got away with what was the clearest example of racist abuse, and should have been dealt with immediately by the chickens at the FA. They in turn were as guilty as Terry by their lack of action.
      Suarez got hung out to dry when there was no evidence, just the voice of Evra!
      And just to add, I F***ing hate John Terry with a vengeance.

      Also, Iā€™ve taken some pretty harsh abuse off black guys in the past, and nobody flinches. I say the word ā€˜blackā€™ when giving it back snd everyone walks round open mouthed like I was a serial killer !
      Need to keep this all in perspective, I think itā€™s going too far.
      Only my opinion though.

      People forget when that Chelsea c**t racially abused Ledley King calling him a "F***ing black b***ard" caught on camera on a live Sky Super Sunday game when no one said a thing. Don't feel aggrieved for Terry, the c**t's got form.
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #56: Dec 06, 2020 08:36:20 am
      I was looking for a thread to put the following in, couldnā€™t find one but this one seems most appropriate....


      ... I watched the Anton Ferdinand documentary on bbc iplayer last night , Football,Racism & me, I know the subject is old hat but this doc is his account of what actually took place, Iā€™m sure most of you know the story of how a certain England Captain going by the name of John Terry racially abused Ferdinand during a match between QPR & Chelsea, I knew something had gone on way back then but for some reason choose to ignore it as just another red top headline, I hadnā€™t seen any of the footage shown last night before and I have to say I was shocked and horrified, you can actually lip read Terry mouthing ā€˜F**k off, you black c**tā€™

      Now in the doc, Anton admits he and Terry had clashed just before it in a off the ball incident and that Anton gave Terry some personal abuse designed to rile him, that is shown too, and you can see the pair chucking their gums, and then the footage of Terry mouthing off his obscenity, this is the England captain weā€™re talking about(at the time) a stalwart of Englishness trusted to lead his peers for England in international duties, and representing his country,

      Yet, he got off with a paltry fine and basically gave license to abuse non white players forever and a day, and this is the same John Terry seen taking the knee supposedly supporting BLM, which Anton quite rightfully points out, in the doc, both Anton & Terry were interviewed by the same representative from the FA, Anton told us that after his interview he felt like he was the guilty party and the questions asked were a form of interrogation rather being a formal chat, he was given a recording (or part thereof) to listen to of Terryā€™s interview and it is totally different to that of Antonā€™s, it was more like a friendly chat rather than a formal serious interview , the FA refused to release any recordings of Antonā€™s interview, ( I wonder why),

      It all ends up in the courtroom which Anton did not want, and the legal eagles with their establishment ethos( we all know what thatā€™s about donā€™t we ?) decide that Terry done nowt wrong,

      After all the Tooingā€™s & froā€™ings and some of the settling of dust, Anton still offers Terry a olive branch, this is in amongst all the latest upheaval we have seen regarding the Black Lives Matter campaign & after seeing Terry take the knee, Anton explains how he feels about it but heā€™s not bitter he believes that if John Terry really supports BLM then he should come out a talk about it, and I think he is right, because if we are to eradicate totally the racistā€™s from the game this is the kind of opportunity that is as powerful as taking the knee if not more.......John Terry refused Antonā€™s olive branch....that says more than any words required to explain what kind of man he is and what he clearly stands for....and further more he is representative of the football association he is employed by ! !


      I hope that the powers at be consider /remind themselves that there is a very serious problem within our game STILL, and that the actions of certain individuals within the game impacts on the future of our beloved sport in who and how we represent the game in equality and from all diversities, that will never happen so long as you have your John Terryā€™s around.




                                                                                   Y  N  W  A





      I haven't watched it, Bill, but can imagine. The Suarez/Evra and Terry/Ferdinand things are what cemented my hate for The FA, and ultimately, the national football team. Ran by a gang of horrible and corrupt cu*ts of the lowest order.
      RedWilly
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #57: Feb 03, 2022 09:18:15 pm
      Didnā€™t know where to post this as canā€™t find an ex player thread

      Currently on ITVā€™s life story - just turned it on, love the way he talks
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #58: Feb 03, 2022 09:23:57 pm
      Didnā€™t know where to post this as canā€™t find an ex player thread

      Currently on ITVā€™s life story - just turned it on, love the way he talks

      Met him in a place I worked in Birkenhead about 5/6 years, he's got a proper boss sense of humour too.
      tezmac
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #59: Feb 03, 2022 09:24:53 pm
      Met him in a place I worked in Birkenhead about 5/6 years, he's got a proper boss sense of humour too.

      Commanding speaker and very interesting
      RedWilly
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #60: Feb 03, 2022 09:38:59 pm
      Met him in a place I worked in Birkenhead about 5/6 years, he's got a proper boss sense of humour too.

      Never met him obviously but he talks with such clarity on topics. Obviously he talks very succinctly on racism as we all know, but just anything he talks about he seems really switched on.

      I very vaguely remember him as a player in the 90ā€™s, or I should say being aware that he was a footballer rather than remembering seeing him play (was born in 92 and think he was with us till around 98?). But my old man says he was one of the best heā€™s ever seen - makes you always wish you had the opportunity yourself to appreciate players like him week in week out!
      waltonl4
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      Re: John Barnes comments.
      Reply #61: Feb 03, 2022 10:11:52 pm
      I haven't watched it, Bill, but can imagine. The Suarez/Evra and Terry/Ferdinand things are what cemented my hate for The FA, and ultimately, the national football team. Ran by a gang of horrible and corrupt cu*ts of the lowest order.

      I feel cheated not being able to enjoy England team games but they leave me cold exactly as you say its a corrupt London centric shithole of a authority. Usually other games are on and Scotland or Wales are usually better games anyway and without the hype.
      The trouble caused at the Euro's was again down to an incompetent FA and Police force. Who on this forum didnt see the problem letting people drink all day outside Wembley without tickets and then shock horror they tried to gate crash the party.

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