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      Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

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      verde-rubro
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #736: Jan 05, 2021 11:18:15 am
      wanna tell me that Liverpool doesn't have the funds to sign a decent centre bck, I mean when will we stop converting midfielders to defenders, we are busy buying 16 and 17yr Olds while the defence  needs immediate attention
      Brian78
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #737: Jan 05, 2021 11:18:47 am

      I respected that I have to admit...we were the only club he hadnt beaten. Were the best club side in the world, maybe. And he admires Jürgen hugely.

      Was nice to see someone show how they really feel. Fair play to him and good luck to him for the rest of the season
      0112358
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #738: Jan 05, 2021 11:35:43 am
      I didn't see 5-6 of crap last season from us

      Well, it was "one of those" seasons. This season we are a little bit on the unlucky side. All I say is: there is no problem, don't overthink it, let the next 5 games unfold and we'll see. And of course Liverpool should not buy a CB out of desperation, better to give Williams and Phillips more chances because how many minutes did they play so far? It's too little game time, players - especially average/young players - need some rhythm. Therefore I would also have not put Hendo at CB, but that's water under the bridge now.
      0112358
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #739: Jan 05, 2021 11:37:48 am
      I respected that I have to admit...we were the only club he hadnt beaten. Were the best club side in the world, maybe. And he admires Jürgen hugely.

      Was nice to see someone show how they really feel. Fair play to him and good luck to him for the rest of the season

      If Jürgen ever leaves us (God forbid) Hasenhüttl (along with Gerrard) should be a candidate. What he did with S'ton speaks for his competence.
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #740: Jan 05, 2021 11:44:24 am
      I know it sounds ridiculous but after two and a half years of consistenty being on top form, the team can be forgiven for losing their form. Of course, we don't want it to become endemic but I think it's natural to see this drop off now after so long riding that wave.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #741: Jan 05, 2021 11:46:07 am
      Do you know what, its not the Jota thing that really annoys me, although it was bloody stupid playing any senior players in that game. What is really starting to piss me off is how boring we are to watch lately, honestly our play is SO damned predictable, as I highlighted. Other teams transition from defence to attack so fast, we used to do that as well, but for some weird reason we have deliberately slowed down our attacks recently with tedious build up play giving the opposition all the time in the world to reset. When was the last time we scored a goal on the break or we had a swift counter attack, certainly not the last three games!  I felt we were like that last season as well, its just that we had such a rock-solid defence that we could get away with it. Tactically something has gone very wrong recently and it needs a shake up, Klopp has to try something different, we need some more heavy metal, at least to have that as an option.

      You also need to apply some tactical appreciation to your analysis instead of your usual sweeping statements. Neither West Brom (especially) and Newcastle (to a slightly lesser extent) got bodies forward when they attacked so the transition from defence to attack that you are lauding other teams for does not apply in the way you implying. United transition quickly primarily because they sit quite deep, are not a possession based side and they invite teams on to them (much like Houllier's LFC teams used to). So when they win the ball back they have space to play into, less defenders to deal with and obviously they can turn teams very quickly.

      As I see it we have got a few issues:

      - Too many crosses, simply far too many. Teams fancy their chances and are simply clogging the middle of the pitch and inviting us to play wide and then cross. Also we don't have an abundance of players who are adept at attacking crosses.

      - Too few shots from outside the box. Have a pop someone, work the keeper and follow them in. We've been having 65-70% of the ball bso use it to take some shots.

      - Final ball from the front 3 has been poor. We've still nicked the ball higher up the pitch in all 3 games but the front 3 look out of sync, all three of them. There is no lack of effort, they simply aren't firing.

      I'd certainly look at changing the shape of the side, i'd try and get Salah into a more central area, teams do everything they can to porevent him from coming inside and getting shots off and Mane/Roberston do (and always have) benefited from that (although many don't see it including yourself when the daggers come out for Salah). Either way we need to get our biggest goal threat in front of the goal with the ball at his feet. You could play Bobby just behind him and go with a midfield 4 with Shaq or Jones in the wide right spot. 
      Scottbot
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #742: Jan 05, 2021 11:48:47 am

      Yeah we are definately seeing that, everyone's cup final now. Still it's got to be a good thing because there is only one way to be viewed like that. You can guarantee Saints will get battered next game! Just like West brom and bloody Newcastle.
      Brian78
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #743: Jan 05, 2021 12:07:03 pm
      I know it sounds ridiculous but after two and a half years of consistenty being on top form, the team can be forgiven for losing their form. Of course, we don't want it to become endemic but I think it's natural to see this drop off now after so long riding that wave.

      This.

      Every team goes through a bad batch. This is ours. Yet we dtill sit on top, with a home game v the 2nd place coming next.

      Well come good again. And if we beat those other teams in the top 6 well be champions again.

      But we need to show signs of life soon
      Livershrew
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #744: Jan 05, 2021 12:10:08 pm
      Sums up where we’re at right now.... 2 of the last 3 games when we need a goal... corner in the last minute and we’ve fu**ed it up and taken it short....
      Swab
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #745: Jan 05, 2021 12:12:51 pm
      Was anyone really expecting us to get up near 100 points again this season?

      The league is all fu**ed up.
      A few people said at the beginning that it wasn't going to be like any other season, and they were right.
      Every team will have strange results; more so than usual.
      The league will be won with less than 90 points, maybe much less.

      I understand the frustration of seeing us hit a bad patch, but F**k me, some of the reactions in here are hilarious, egged on by the usual sh*t stirring wum of course.

      Calm down.
      Form is temporary etc
      heimdall
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #746: Jan 05, 2021 12:51:50 pm
      City plays methodical football, we play more coincidental football that prefers effort over skill. It works, because you do not need the quality of players you'd need for City's style. And if you look at silverware it also works in that category. But of course there's a cost: dry spells. City won't have such longer dry spells, maybe 1-2 games but that's it, our style is always good for 5-6 games of cr*p. Live with it or feel sorry.

      or change it, City are far better than us in attack, much more fluid and dynamic, our players are far too negative, especially the midfield, Klopp needs to take the shackles off, encourage the midfield to take players on and to take a damned shot, especially against reserve keepers ffs!
      heimdall
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #747: Jan 05, 2021 12:57:54 pm
      You also need to apply some tactical appreciation to your analysis instead of your usual sweeping statements. Neither West Brom (especially) and Newcastle (to a slightly lesser extent) got bodies forward when they attacked so the transition from defence to attack that you are lauding other teams for does not apply in the way you implying. United transition quickly primarily because they sit quite deep, are not a possession based side and they invite teams on to them (much like Houllier's LFC teams used to). So when they win the ball back they have space to play into, less defenders to deal with and obviously they can turn teams very quickly.

      As I see it we have got a few issues:

      - Too many crosses, simply far too many. Teams fancy their chances and are simply clogging the middle of the pitch and inviting us to play wide and then cross. Also we don't have an abundance of players who are adept at attacking crosses.

      - Too few shots from outside the box. Have a pop someone, work the keeper and follow them in. We've been having 65-70% of the ball bso use it to take some shots.

      - Final ball from the front 3 has been poor. We've still nicked the ball higher up the pitch in all 3 games but the front 3 look out of sync, all three of them. There is no lack of effort, they simply aren't firing.

      I'd certainly look at changing the shape of the side, i'd try and get Salah into a more central area, teams do everything they can to porevent him from coming inside and getting shots off and Mane/Roberston do (and always have) benefited from that (although many don't see it including yourself when the daggers come out for Salah). Either way we need to get our biggest goal threat in front of the goal with the ball at his feet. You could play Bobby just behind him and go with a midfield 4 with Shaq or Jones in the wide right spot. 

      Seems we agree on this, the shape and tactics need a major tweak, I'd drop Bobby and switch to 2 up top, Id then pack the midfield and instruct them to attack, sitting deeper maybe, play more counter attack. At the moment we are far to easy to play, we need a plan B and c etc
      sore monad
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #748: Jan 05, 2021 12:59:53 pm
      I posted yesterday saying the problem was a dip in form from key attacking players and wasn't down to our CB situation but, thinking about the game again, I've changed my mind. What made me realise was the first 10 or 15 minutes of the 2nd half, when we came out like our old selves and had a go at them - Trent pushed up the right, we got players in the box, and for a brief period looked like we would score pretty quickly. Southampton then had one good counter-attack, and we went right back in our shell. Why?

      Myself, and a lot of us, have been underestimating how much nerve it takes to play our high press. It leaves us at serious risk of counter-attacks if we don't get it right (as we saw against Villa). Right now, with no CBs on the pitch and lacking the recovery pace of Virgil and Gomez (and even Matip), our players are feeling they can't risk all out attack. Trent in particular is staying back (maybe under Jürgen's instructions) to try and cover. So we are losing our right flank of attack, and Mo is getting completely isolated. This is what is killing us offensively. It is absolutely no coincidence that the sudden drop in our form has followed us losing Matip. Our lack of a CB is not costing us so much defensively, but it is taking away a huge part of our attack, and our high press in general.

      So we absolutely need a CB in this window - one with good recovery pace. (In the meantime, I would say that of the last 3 games, the one where we were least bad going forward was against Newcastle. It's far from conclusive, but at least suggests that Phillips may be the best of our existing options in terms of making the players feel they can press high.)
      heimdall
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      • 13,818 posts | 2724 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #749: Jan 05, 2021 01:00:00 pm
      Was anyone really expecting us to get up near 100 points again this season?

      The league is all fu**ed up.
      A few people said at the beginning that it wasn't going to be like any other season, and they were right.
      Every team will have strange results; more so than usual.
      The league will be won with less than 90 points, maybe much less.

      I understand the frustration of seeing us hit a bad patch, but f**k me, some of the reactions in here are hilarious, egged on by the usual sh*t stirring wum of course.

      Calm down.
      Form is temporary etc

      who is the wum??? Is it the person who is frustrated or the person goading him?? ;-)
      LiverpoolsFinest
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #750: Jan 05, 2021 01:00:47 pm
      Teams have worked out they can get everyone back behind the ball and watch us pass it in front of them; missing Virgil or having Fab at centre half doesn't and wouldn't change this.
      Our attacks have become pedestrian and lacking any sort of spark.
      Can you see any of the other "lesser" sides trying anything else other than sitting back and doing the same thing that so many other teams have done to us recently?
      Yes we're going through a rough patch, but we're doing ourselves no favours by not trying to change anything and hoping it will work itself out; we've had enough ropey away results this season to suggest it might be a while before it comes together again.
      Based on the season as a whole, certainly the away games, the Palace result was an anomaly; we can't keep thinking we blew them away so everything will be ok.
      Swab
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #751: Jan 05, 2021 01:17:53 pm
      Teams have worked out they can get everyone back behind the ball and watch us pass it in front of them; missing Virgil or having Fab at centre half doesn't and wouldn't change this.
      Our attacks have become pedestrian and lacking any sort of spark.
      Can you see any of the other "lesser" sides trying anything else other than sitting back and doing the same thing that so many other teams have done to us recently?
      Yes we're going through a rough patch, but we're doing ourselves no favours by not trying to change anything and hoping it will work itself out; we've had enough ropey away results this season to suggest it might be a while before it comes together again.
      Based on the season as a whole, certainly the away games, the Palace result was an anomaly; we can't keep thinking we blew them away so everything will be ok.

      They've been doing that for 4 years.

      You think after all this time, they've only now thought of bus parking?
      LiverpoolsFinest
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #752: Jan 05, 2021 01:24:53 pm
      They've been doing that for 4 years.

      You think after all this time, they've only now thought of bus parking?

      They evidently haven't been doing it anywhere near as successfully as teams have been this season and last (since lockdown).
      So yes, of course teams park the bus, and not just against us, but as we seem to now be devoid of ideas against this tactic except crossing it to no-one, maybe a slight tweak might be worth considering. Something isn't working, clearly.
      Swab
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #753: Jan 05, 2021 01:30:39 pm
      They evidently haven't been doing it anywhere near as successfully as teams have been this season and last (since lockdown).
      So yes, of course teams park the bus, and not just against us, but as we seem to now be devoid of ideas against this tactic except crossing it to no-one, maybe a slight tweak might be worth considering. Something isn't working, clearly.

      Yes they have.

      We've had a bit of luck, that we kind of made ourselves with relentless pressure.

      We had more than enough chances to win both of the games prior to last night.

      To suggest this is just now happening is laughable.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #754: Jan 05, 2021 01:36:28 pm
      They evidently haven't been doing it anywhere near as successfully as teams have been this season and last (since lockdown).
      So yes, of course teams park the bus, and not just against us, but as we seem to now be devoid of ideas against this tactic except crossing it to no-one, maybe a slight tweak might be worth considering. Something isn't working, clearly.

      Difference is with freaks of nature like VVD in the back line unbeatable in the air and able to handle the quickest of attackers we could squeeze the play into the opposition half.

      Where as now the current CB’s are dropping deeper giving Bus Parker’s opportunities to launch long balls over our midfield and turning our CB’s and creating 1 v 1 situations where they are clearly uncomfortable.

      Not compacting the play also means we are not able to connect the forwards with the midfield as the likes of Hendo, Gini, Milner are not great at progressing the ball forward. Tiago might do this but he is generally a deep lying player.
      The midfielder we currently miss the most is Keita but he can’t be relied on to be available.
      Our lack of creativity from midfield is magnified as Trent is so out of form.

      I have mentioned before we need a change in midfield if we are to carry on with the current back line.
      UncleBob
      • Spotify Bob
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #755: Jan 05, 2021 01:37:26 pm
      Problem is more than one thing.

      Firmino has been on horrible form and seems to have no first touch anymore.
      Salah just will not pass. Ever. Which is fine when his shooting boots are on, but in games where they are not then it shows up.
      Wijnandum seems to struggle to grab the game when we are not playing well.
      Keita and Shaqiri are never, ever fit.
      We have no centrebacks.
      TAA is having the worst run of form of his career.
      We have had to play one of our best midfielders as a make shift defender.
      Origi and minamino are either not good enough or have annoyed klopp somehow.
      Klopps substitutions rarely change the tide of a game.

      The most amazing thing about this season is that we have only lost twice. We deserve very little from quite a few games this season.
      It would be interesting to see how many points we have had since that defeat to Watford.

      I still think if we had.....
      Allison
      TAA
      Robertson
      VVD
      Gomez

      Fabinho
      Henderson
      Thiago

      Salah
      Bobby
      Mane

      ....We would be 8 points clear.

      But we have a window now to at least fix one issue. If not this form will continue and the performances won’t get much better.
      FL Red
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #756: Jan 05, 2021 01:45:18 pm
      Difference is with freaks of nature like VVD in the back line unbeatable in the air and able to handle the quickest of attackers we could squeeze the play into the opposition half.

      Where as now the current CB’s are dropping deeper giving Bus Parker’s opportunities to launch long balls over our midfield and turning our CB’s and creating 1 v 1 situations where they are clearly uncomfortable.

      Not compacting the play also means we are not able to connect the forwards with the midfield as the likes of Hendo, Gini, Milner are not great at progressing the ball forward. Tiago might do this but he is generally a deep lying player.
      The midfielder we currently miss the most is Keita but he can’t be relied on to be available.
      Our lack of creativity from midfield is magnified as Trent is so out of form.

      I have mentioned before we need a change in midfield if we are to carry on with the current back line.


      Folks, read HSc's post and then read it again. Our problems start from the back and trickle forward from there. Which is why we are dying for some CB help that can maybe allow us to get back to some semblance of how we used to play. In my opinion, bringing in a quality CB could be the difference in the title. Obviously it's not a silver bullet, but not bringing one in most assuredly means a lot of things have to go perfectly right. At this point I'm not even talking about cover, I'm talking about someone that could have challenged or started ahead of Joe to partner with Virg.

      I'd even bring in two...a top shelf guy and one for depth, maybe a veteran that's still got a few miles left. Maybe there isn't anyone available, maybe we don't have the money, maybe they are already working on it...I don't know, but if it doesn't happen, it's going to be a nervy season IMO.
      Scottbot
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #757: Jan 05, 2021 01:55:23 pm
      I posted yesterday saying the problem was a dip in form from key attacking players and wasn't down to our CB situation but, thinking about the game again, I've changed my mind. What made me realise was the first 10 or 15 minutes of the 2nd half, when we came out like our old selves and had a go at them - Trent pushed up the right, we got players in the box, and for a brief period looked like we would score pretty quickly. Southampton then had one good counter-attack, and we went right back in our shell. Why?

      Myself, and a lot of us, have been underestimating how much nerve it takes to play our high press. It leaves us at serious risk of counter-attacks if we don't get it right (as we saw against Villa). Right now, with no CBs on the pitch and lacking the recovery pace of Virgil and Gomez (and even Matip), our players are feeling they can't risk all out attack. Trent in particular is staying back (maybe under Jürgen's instructions) to try and cover. So we are losing our right flank of attack, and Mo is getting completely isolated. This is what is killing us offensively. It is absolutely no coincidence that the sudden drop in our form has followed us losing Matip. Our lack of a CB is not costing us so much defensively, but it is taking away a huge part of our attack, and our high press in general.

      So we absolutely need a CB in this window - one with good recovery pace. (In the meantime, I would say that of the last 3 games, the one where we were least bad going forward was against Newcastle. It's far from conclusive, but at least suggests that Phillips may be the best of our existing options in terms of making the players feel they can press high.)

      It certainly has an impact, probably more so yesterday than during the West Brom for example. Henderson looked a bit lost at times in the first half yesterday and found himself well out of position (only to be expected) and against Newcastle we saw Phillips get skinned for pace a few times as well as being uncertain in possession. All of this impacts on the others slightly, it might be the full-backs dropping a little deeper or not playing a pass back to t a centre-half in a pressured situation because they have less confidence in them.

      Also, the VVD impact is still very noticeable, not just his dominance in the air and the fact that very few forwards even try to dribble past him. We've also missed his passing range both in transition and when the oppo have dropped and there is time on the ball.

      Regards who is the best, i really don't know that Phillips is the best call. Against the bus parkers you could argue you would be better off with Williams, he's very comfortable and composed in possession, probably a little bit quicker, and if the oppo press i think he is perhaps less likely to make a mistake. If we were up against someone like Burnley who throw the ball into the box to Wood and Barnes i'd take Phillips all day though.
      heimdall
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #758: Jan 05, 2021 02:30:42 pm
      Yes they have.

      We've had a bit of luck, that we kind of made ourselves with relentless pressure.

      We had more than enough chances to win both of the games prior to last night.

      To suggest this is just now happening is laughable.

      Sorry but when you only have one shot on goal per game then you by its very definition don't have plenty of chances. I agree that against Newcastle we were a little bit unlucky and could have scored but WBA and Southampton were utter garbage from an attacking POV.

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