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      Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

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      heimdall
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 13,818 posts | 2724 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #759: Jan 05, 2021 02:38:35 pm
      Difference is with freaks of nature like VVD in the back line unbeatable in the air and able to handle the quickest of attackers we could squeeze the play into the opposition half.

      Where as now the current CB’s are dropping deeper giving Bus Parker’s opportunities to launch long balls over our midfield and turning our CB’s and creating 1 v 1 situations where they are clearly uncomfortable.

      Not compacting the play also means we are not able to connect the forwards with the midfield as the likes of Hendo, Gini, Milner are not great at progressing the ball forward. Tiago might do this but he is generally a deep lying player.
      The midfielder we currently miss the most is Keita but he can’t be relied on to be available.
      Our lack of creativity from midfield is magnified as Trent is so out of form.

      I have mentioned before we need a change in midfield if we are to carry on with the current back line.


      but in that case a manager earning millions a year must surely be able to change the tactics to accommodate for the loss or poor display of one player.

      I have had a feeling for a while now that our team is very very good, but is over coached and too much like a machine with zero flexibility, so that if one cog fails to work it all collapses, other teams are not really like that, they are better able to cope with one poor player. The other team that falls into the same trap as us is City who also seem to either be collectively crap or superb.

      The solution is surprisingly easy, it just requires trust, you need to take the shackles off your players and let them play a bit freer, for example let your midfield players run with the ball instead of following the instructions to pass it always to the fullback or lob it over the top. Another variation is to let the FB defend and trust your midfielders to do the attacking to punch through the middle as well as having the occasional attack from the flanks, at the moment its almost always from the flanks which makes it easy to defend against.
      weareliverpool
      • Forum Billy Liddell
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      • 586 posts | 102 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #760: Jan 05, 2021 03:13:02 pm
      but in that case a manager earning millions a year must surely be able to change the tactics to accommodate for the loss or poor display of one player.

      I have had a feeling for a while now that our team is very very good, but is over coached and too much like a machine with zero flexibility, so that if one cog fails to work it all collapses, other teams are not really like that, they are better able to cope with one poor player. The other team that falls into the same trap as us is City who also seem to either be collectively crap or superb.

      The solution is surprisingly easy, it just requires trust, you need to take the shackles off your players and let them play a bit freer, for example let your midfield players run with the ball instead of following the instructions to pass it always to the fullback or lob it over the top. Another variation is to let the FB defend and trust your midfielders to do the attacking to punch through the middle as well as having the occasional attack from the flanks, at the moment its almost always from the flanks which makes it easy to defend against.

      It's not about how much someone is paid,for a while now Jürgen doesn't seem his usual self and doesn't look like he knows what to do about our away form,he's acting a bit like Jose at Spurs when things aren't going right,the 5 subs even though a lot of the time he's not using the three available,the early kick offs giving the boys an excuse if we don't win/play well and just being negative(that's not in Jürgen's DNA),VAR/refs decisions-these are not going to change after the match so why bring them up constantly post match,let the players do the talking on the pitch and hound the ref during the match when a clear mistake is made(just like the manc teams do),don't just accept it and be mute,even if the ref doesn't listen the first time it might make him think twice the next time and ask VAR to look at it or blow his whistle but everyone and their dog is now getting fed up with Jürgen's moaning/negativity and it's getting boring and having an effect on how he and the team is performing,even mentioning man u and the penalty's there getting compared to us,everyone knows this, it makes him look petty and a bad loser,concentrate on our great team and get back to basics to show why we are champions,as Jürgen says we need to find solutions and not excuses.One thing is for sure Jürgen needs to be backed by FSG in the market for a CB or two or Jürgen may become disillusioned and walk away.
      fields of anny rd
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 17,663 posts | 1961 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #761: Jan 05, 2021 03:40:11 pm
      Was watching MNF after the full time whistle and Carragher forensically examined our penalty shout and said why it wasn't a pen.

      After seeing all that I'm still convinced it was.

      tezmac
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
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      • 11,111 posts | 896 
      • F**k the Sun F**k Murdoch F**k the press
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #762: Jan 05, 2021 03:42:27 pm
      Was watching MNF after the full time whistle and Carragher forensically examined our penalty shout and said why it wasn't a pen.

      After seeing all that I'm still convinced it was.




      If it was united playing thebit would have been a nailed on peno. That aside it was a sh*t performance from many players.
      Brian78
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 19,046 posts | 2741 
      • A Liverbird upon my chest
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #763: Jan 05, 2021 03:42:49 pm
      Was watching MNF after the full time whistle and Carragher forensically examined our penalty shout and said why it wasn't a pen.

      After seeing all that I'm still convinced it was.



      If thats not a peno then at least half a dozen penos given this season should not have been given
      liverpoolcore
      • Forum John Aldridge
      • **

      • 104 posts | 10 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #764: Jan 05, 2021 03:44:06 pm
      Problem is more than one thing.

      Firmino has been on horrible form and seems to have no first touch anymore.
      Salah just will not pass. Ever. Which is fine when his shooting boots are on, but in games where they are not then it shows up.
      Wijnandum seems to struggle to grab the game when we are not playing well.
      Keita and Shaqiri are never, ever fit.
      We have no centrebacks.
      TAA is having the worst run of form of his career.
      We have had to play one of our best midfielders as a make shift defender.
      Origi and minamino are either not good enough or have annoyed klopp somehow.
      Klopps substitutions rarely change the tide of a game.

      The most amazing thing about this season is that we have only lost twice. We deserve very little from quite a few games this season.
      It would be interesting to see how many points we have had since that defeat to Watford.

      I still think if we had.....
      Allison
      TAA
      Robertson
      VVD
      Gomez

      Fabinho
      Henderson
      Thiago

      Salah
      Bobby
      Mane

      ....We would be 8 points clear.

      But we have a window now to at least fix one issue. If not this form will continue and the performances won’t get much better.
      the lineup you have listed is our strongest possible, but as it is not feasible for now due to obvious seasons, Klopp has to find other options
      LiverpoolsFinest
      • Forum Peter Beardsley
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      • 183 posts | 36 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #765: Jan 05, 2021 03:45:04 pm
      Yes they have.

      We've had a bit of luck, that we kind of made ourselves with relentless pressure.

      We had more than enough chances to win both of the games prior to last night.

      To suggest this is just now happening is laughable.

      The results suggest differently, when have we previously had such a poor run against teams at the bottom of the division?

      I saw a stat that said we've had 7 shots on target in the last 3 games, so what has happened?
      liverpoolcore
      • Forum John Aldridge
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      • 104 posts | 10 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #766: Jan 05, 2021 03:45:09 pm
      Teams have worked out they can get everyone back behind the ball and watch us pass it in front of them; missing Virgil or having Fab at centre half doesn't and wouldn't change this.
      Our attacks have become pedestrian and lacking any sort of spark.
      Can you see any of the other "lesser" sides trying anything else other than sitting back and doing the same thing that so many other teams have done to us recently?
      Yes we're going through a rough patch, but we're doing ourselves no favours by not trying to change anything and hoping it will work itself out; we've had enough ropey away results this season to suggest it might be a while before it comes together again.
      Based on the season as a whole, certainly the away games, the Palace result was an anomaly; we can't keep thinking we blew them away so everything will be ok.
      true, also what favoured us against Palace was that after our early goals they were quite inefficent on their own when trying to score
      LiverpoolsFinest
      • Forum Peter Beardsley
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      • 183 posts | 36 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #767: Jan 05, 2021 03:49:37 pm
      Difference is with freaks of nature like VVD in the back line unbeatable in the air and able to handle the quickest of attackers we could squeeze the play into the opposition half.

      Where as now the current CB’s are dropping deeper giving Bus Parker’s opportunities to launch long balls over our midfield and turning our CB’s and creating 1 v 1 situations where they are clearly uncomfortable.

      Not compacting the play also means we are not able to connect the forwards with the midfield as the likes of Hendo, Gini, Milner are not great at progressing the ball forward. Tiago might do this but he is generally a deep lying player.
      The midfielder we currently miss the most is Keita but he can’t be relied on to be available.
      Our lack of creativity from midfield is magnified as Trent is so out of form.

      I have mentioned before we need a change in midfield if we are to carry on with the current back line.

      All valid points, which suggest that (short team at least) something needs to change, because as it stands it isn't working, as both the stats and more importantly the results show.
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 13,361 posts | 3462 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #768: Jan 05, 2021 04:04:55 pm
      The results suggest differently, when have we previously had such a poor run against teams at the bottom of the division?

      I saw a stat that said we've had 7 shots on target in the last 3 games, so what has happened?

      Like I said, prior to last night we've had more than enough chances to win the 2 previous games.

      If you want to get involved in all the drama and histrionics, that's your call.

      Me, I'll carry on being realistic.
      It's the same sh*t in here every time we don't get a win.
      Drama, wailing, gnashing of teeth, bullshit, demands and incredibly, people who think they know better than the best manager in the world.

      It's football.
      sh*t happens.
      Sometimes you win when you don't deserve to, sometimes you lose or draw when you don't deserve to.

      There'll be more games, we'll win more than we'll draw or lose, and that's how it goes.
      Same for other teams, some will get bad results, some will get good ones.

      I'm not going to start crying about a relatively poor game after watching this team for over 50 years.
      I've seen far, far worse.

      After a couple of seasons where we got very high points totals, this season the league will be won with not much more than 80 points.
      If it's us, that means we will lose or draw more games, and the same goes for other teams.
      heimdall
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 13,818 posts | 2724 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #769: Jan 05, 2021 04:13:18 pm
      Like I said, prior to last night we've had more than enough chances to win the 2 previous games.

      If you want to get involved in all the drama and histrionics, that's your call.

      Me, I'll carry on being realistic.
      It's the same sh*t in here every time we don't get a win.
      Drama, wailing, gnashing of teeth, bullshit, demands and incredibly, people who think they know better than the best manager in the world.

      It's football.
      Sh*t happens.
      Sometimes you win when you don't deserve to, sometimes you lose or draw when you don't deserve to.

      There'll be more games, we'll win more than we'll draw or lose, and that's how it goes.
      Same for other teams, some will get bad results, some will get good ones.

      I'm not going to start crying about a relatively poor game after watching this team for over 50 years.
      I've seen far, far worse.

      After a couple of seasons where we got very high points totals, this season the league will be won with not much more than 80 points.
      If it's us, that means we will lose or draw more games, and the same goes for other teams.

      Good for you now kindly sod off so that those of us who see a problem and want to think through possible solutions can have a grown up conversation.

      adammac
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
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      • 4,757 posts | 239 
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #770: Jan 05, 2021 04:20:16 pm
      Only got to catch the first half and by the sounds of it what I missed wasn't much better. This game was very frustrating because we traditionally do well vs side who press and push the play but last night wasn't the case.

      Not quick and sharp enough on the ball to work it through their press, we gave it away and were vulnerable when attacked. Just a lot of poor performance all around.

      Hope we can stop the rot and get the train back on the track to push for the title bit this hasn't been a very merry holiday period for the team.
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 13,361 posts | 3462 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #771: Jan 05, 2021 04:27:56 pm
      Only got to catch the first half and by the sounds of it what I missed wasn't much better. This game was very frustrating because we traditionally do well vs side who press and push the play but last night wasn't the case.

      Not quick and sharp enough on the ball to work it through their press, we gave it away and were vulnerable when attacked. Just a lot of poor performance all around.

      Hope we can stop the rot and get the train back on the track to push for the title bit this hasn't been a very merry holiday period for the team.

      You didn't miss much to be honest.

      Difference is, last season and the season before, when we played poorly, we managed to find a way to grab the points.
      So far this season, we're not having much luck in that area.

      It'll turn.
      It always does.
      shawspeed
      • Forum Billy Liddell
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      • 561 posts | 128 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #772: Jan 05, 2021 04:38:51 pm
      The results suggest differently, when have we previously had such a poor run against teams at the bottom of the division?

      I saw a stat that said we've had 7 shots on target in the last 3 games, so what has happened?

      Let's be honest, since the restart we can count the good performances on one hand. We have been either average or downright mediocre for the rest. We don't seem to press like we used to and it's hard to believe that so many players can be out of form or fitness at the same time.
      LiverpoolsFinest
      • Forum Peter Beardsley
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      • 183 posts | 36 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #773: Jan 05, 2021 04:43:00 pm
      Like I said, prior to last night we've had more than enough chances to win the 2 previous games.

      If you want to get involved in all the drama and histrionics, that's your call.

      Me, I'll carry on being realistic.
      It's the same sh*t in here every time we don't get a win.
      Drama, wailing, gnashing of teeth, bullshit, demands and incredibly, people who think they know better than the best manager in the world.

      It's football.
      Sh*t happens.
      Sometimes you win when you don't deserve to, sometimes you lose or draw when you don't deserve to.

      There'll be more games, we'll win more than we'll draw or lose, and that's how it goes.
      Same for other teams, some will get bad results, some will get good ones.

      I'm not going to start crying about a relatively poor game after watching this team for over 50 years.
      I've seen far, far worse.

      After a couple of seasons where we got very high points totals, this season the league will be won with not much more than 80 points.
      If it's us, that means we will lose or draw more games, and the same goes for other teams.

      Is it really drama and histrionics to acknowledge that results haven't been going our way and suggest that a change to the way we've been trying to break down teams should be reviewed and tweaked? Especially when, as we are clearly struggling with personnel in certain positions who were integral to the success we have had, the players who have replaced them aren't capable of doing the same things they were, such was the high level they were performing at?

      Surely thinking everything will magically fix itself whilst we are currently clearly under strength is more foolish than trying to look at a different way of breaking teams down?
      alex1995
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
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      • 2,185 posts | 165 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #774: Jan 05, 2021 04:45:39 pm
      TAA and Alison were terrible.having Henderson as CB was useless. Nat Philips would have been enough. The front 3, particularly Firmino, need to return to their basics. Wijnaldum was a ghost.

      But the main culprit is Klopp. By trying to be optimistic and positive after disastrous performances, he is becoming delusional. This team has been average for weeks now. We need another player at the front and a new CB.
      « Last Edit: Jan 05, 2021 04:54:34 pm by alex1995 »
      tezmac
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
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      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #775: Jan 05, 2021 04:47:36 pm
      Most players were shocking last night, and nothing changed during the game
      chats
      • LFC Reds Subscriber
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      • 31,018 posts | 2741 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #776: Jan 05, 2021 04:55:38 pm
      Was watching MNF after the full time whistle and Carragher forensically examined our penalty shout and said why it wasn't a pen.

      After seeing all that I'm still convinced it was.



      Don't mind Carra's analysis of other teams but he's completely lost the plot regarding us in recent times. Tries so hard to come off as not biased that he's all over the place really.

      It was such a clear penalty, felt cringey watching him dissect it down and try to claim it wasn't.
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 13,361 posts | 3462 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #777: Jan 05, 2021 04:56:43 pm
      Is it really drama and histrionics to acknowledge that results haven't been going our way and suggest that a change to the way we've been trying to break down teams should be reviewed and tweaked? Especially when, as we are clearly struggling with personnel in certain positions who were integral to the success we have had, the players who have replaced them aren't capable of doing the same things they were, such was the high level they were performing at?

      Surely thinking everything will magically fix itself whilst we are currently clearly under strength is more foolish than trying to look at a different way of breaking teams down?

      I read the match thread. Drama and histrionics is exactly it.

      Salah needs benching, Firmino is sh*t,, TAA has lost the plot, blah, blah, F***ing blah.
      Heard it all before, literally hundreds of times.

      Something else I've heard so many times is "things need to change". Yeah, the very same things that saw us have one of the most successful periods in our history.
      So you've gone from "teams have worked us out", which of course is utter nonsense considering we've been playing the same way since Klopp got here, to "we need to change" a successful formula that brought us a first league title in decades.

      There's nothing magical about it.
      Players lose a bit of form, other teams are allowed to play well, sometimes we have a bad patch as all teams do.

      What you don't do is throw everything out, and start again.

      The tactical and positional tweaks are there every game for those who are able to see them, as are the in game formational changes.

      We lost our 2 starting defenders, and then our 3rd choice.
      F**k all anyone can do about that, and given our style of play, I doubt a new CB is going to slot in seamlessly and make everything better.

      Like I said; it's football, sh*t happens.
      You can either get over it and move on, or not.
      Your choice.
      I've already moved on.
      rossyred
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
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      • 9,090 posts | 1631 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #778: Jan 05, 2021 05:04:12 pm
      Love the ignore button cuts out all the sanctimonious  sh*te I read
      LiverpoolsFinest
      • Forum Peter Beardsley
      • **

      • 183 posts | 36 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #779: Jan 05, 2021 05:23:13 pm
      I read the match thread. Drama and histrionics is exactly it.

      Salah needs benching, Firmino is sh*t,, TAA has lost the plot, blah, blah, f**king blah.
      Heard it all before, literally hundreds of times.

      Something else I've heard so many times is "things need to change". Yeah, the very same things that saw us have one of the most successful periods in our history.
      So you've gone from "teams have worked us out", which of course is utter nonsense considering we've been playing the same way since Klopp got here, to "we need to change" a successful formula that brought us a first league title in decades.

      There's nothing magical about it.
      Players lose a bit of form, other teams are allowed to play well, sometimes we have a bad patch as all teams do.

      What you don't do is throw everything out, and start again.

      The tactical and positional tweaks are there every game for those who are able to see them, as are the in game formational changes.

      We lost our 2 starting defenders, and then our 3rd choice.
      F**k all anyone can do about that, and given our style of play, I doubt a new CB is going to slot in seamlessly and make everything better.

      Like I said; it's football, sh*t happens.
      You can either get over it and move on, or not.
      Your choice.
      I've already moved on.

      As I keep saying, the results show we have been worked out by other teams, which would suggest a change could result in better performances and picking up more points  than we have recently. The fact that we're doing what we've always done, as you admit, suggests teams have figured out a way to counter it.
      We have been poor for a while now, this isn't just the last 3 or 4 games, the ease that poor teams are shutting us down suggests that something is wrong and needs to be addressed to turn this slump around.
      FYI You won't have seen a single post from me saying anyone should be benched or calling anyone sh*t.
      I do however think there has been a significant drop off in performances across almost the entire team.
      How many points since restart have we picked up compared to other teams at the top, I bet it is no where near as many as when we were destroying teams.

      But we can hark back to then and remember how good we were, so all is good because that's football.

      Tadders
      • Forum Legend - Dalglish
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      • 6,613 posts | 558 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #780: Jan 05, 2021 05:34:43 pm
      Sums up where we’re at right now.... 2 of the last 3 games when we need a goal... corner in the last minute and we’ve fu**ed it up and taken it short....

      complacency written all over us at the moment
      Swab
      • Forum Legend - Paisley
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      • 13,361 posts | 3462 
      Re: Southampton 1-0 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #781: Jan 05, 2021 05:35:09 pm
      As I keep saying, the results show we have been worked out by other teams, which would suggest a change could result in better performances and picking up more points  than we have recently. The fact that we're doing what we've always done, as you admit, suggests teams have figured out a way to counter it.
      We have been poor for a while now, this isn't just the last 3 or 4 games, the ease that poor teams are shutting us down suggests that something is wrong and needs to be addressed to turn this slump around.
      FYI You won't have seen a single post from me saying anyone should be benched or calling anyone sh*t.
      I do however think there has been a significant drop off in performances across almost the entire team.
      How many points since restart have we picked up compared to other teams at the top, I bet it is no where near as many as when we were destroying teams.

      But we can hark back to then and remember how good we were, so all is good because that's football.

      It's simply not true.
      Klopp has been in charge for 272 matches, winning 164, and you're saying that teams have just now managed to work us out?

      Bollocks.

      They had Klopp sussed before he even came here.
      They knew his style, they knew his tactics.
      Fucks sake, it's like when he gave his Sky interview about tactics, and all the idiots were shouting that he'd given his secrets away.

      Other clubs aren't run by F***ing muppets who have been scratching their balls for nearly 300 matches going "durr, no idea how this lot play".
      It's an incredibly fatuous statement.
      Clubs put a huge amount of resources into dissecting and analyzing other clubs way of playing.
      We're not in the Jewson's Sunday league ffs.

      It's down to a bit of bad form.
      Nothing else.
      And that gets solved on the training ground.

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