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      Political extremism in football must be held to account

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      ozi_wozzy
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      Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Jan 12, 2021 02:16:08 pm
      Apologies if this is in the wrong section, so admins please move / delete thread if you need to. I feel strongly about this subject so I wanted to get people's opinions.

      I was furious when I witnessed Cenk Tosun flash the "Grey Wolves" salute in the weekend in their game against Rotherham. To put it into context, Grey Wolves are a far right extremist political movement in Turkey. It's the equivalent of a Nazi salute and the movement has been banned in France, Austria with others considering the ban.

      He has laughably denied knowledge of the movement and said he was simply pointing to the sky and Everton have disgracefully covered it up by standing by his explanation. FA, predictably have accepted Everton's version of events.

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/01/10/fa-looking-cenk-tosun-celebration-player-denies-linked-turkish/

      Everton have their own agenda in that they do not wish to be associated with racism, and are trying to offload Tosun. Acknowledging and apologizing for his fascist political views would impact his valuation and suitors. But they must be held accountable for this despicable behaviour. It's an insult to all fans in the city and undoes so much good work that is being done .

      What are people's opinions / views on the matter in terms of how to go about raising this through the right channels? We all agree racism needs to be kicked out, but I am more interested in existing official channels that can be explored, contacts that can be made or anything I can use to ensure Everton as a club do the right thing by the fans and the city, and publicly apologise for this horrendous act.
      heimdall
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #1: Jan 12, 2021 02:31:08 pm
      Apologies if this is in the wrong section, so admins please move / delete thread if you need to. I feel strongly about this subject so I wanted to get people's opinions.

      I was furious when I witnessed Cenk Tosun flash the "Grey Wolves" salute in the weekend in their game against Rotherham. To put it into context, Grey Wolves are a far right extremist political movement in Turkey. It's the equivalent of a Nazi salute and the movement has been banned in France, Austria with others considering the ban.

      He has laughably denied knowledge of the movement and said he was simply pointing to the sky and Everton have disgracefully covered it up by standing by his explanation. FA, predictably have accepted Everton's version of events.

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/01/10/fa-looking-cenk-tosun-celebration-player-denies-linked-turkish/

      Everton have their own agenda in that they do not wish to be associated with racism, and are trying to offload Tosun. Acknowledging and apologizing for his fascist political views would impact his valuation and suitors. But they must be held accountable for this despicable behaviour. It's an insult to all fans in the city and undoes so much good work that is being done .

      What are people's opinions / views on the matter in terms of how to go about raising this through the right channels? We all agree racism needs to be kicked out, but I am more interested in existing official channels that can be explored, contacts that can be made or anything I can use to ensure Everton as a club do the right thing by the fans and the city, and publicly apologise for this horrendous act.

      I 100% agree that there should be no politics in football but isn't taking the knee also a political statement in favour of BLM, which is a far-left movement? 
      Yes yes I know its meant as an anti-racist gesture, which is laudable, but it also happens to be the symbol or gesture for BLM the marxist political movement.
      ozi_wozzy
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #2: Jan 12, 2021 02:44:24 pm
      I 100% agree that there should be no politics in football but isn't taking the knee also a political statement in favour of BLM, which is a far-left movement? 
      Yes yes I know its meant as an anti-racist gesture, which is laudable, but it also happens to be the symbol or gesture for BLM the marxist political movement.

      It's a fair point. There is a debate to be had about any political views being allowed to be expressed in football, especially by the professionals themselves. BLM can be a part of that debate. You can argue it's a positive campaign to eradicate racism in general and brings people together. You can also argue it belongs to a far left movement and has no place in football. It's a healthy debate.

      However, if any player makes a Nazi salute, it'll be rightly condemned and clubs would punish the player. This is the equivalent. This particular salute is supporting a known far right extremist group that is lawfully banned in a number of European countries. If there was any basis for freedom of speech being used to express your views for a group like this, he wouldn't have denied his knowledge of it. Clearly he is aware of the repercussions hence the cover up. I don't think it should be debated in the same way whether BLM has a place or not. I am referring to a known fascist movement.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #3: Jan 12, 2021 02:55:07 pm
      Regardless of which "wing" it comes from, i wish all political crap would stay out of the sport. Part of the reason people watch sports is to get away from the negativity and "forget about life for a while".
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #4: Jan 12, 2021 04:21:23 pm
      If taking a knee is, to your mind, a far left ideology, you may need to check how far right you've gone.
      Roddenberry
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #5: Jan 12, 2021 04:22:48 pm
      Regardless of which "wing" it comes from, i wish all political crap would stay out of the sport. Part of the reason people watch sports is to get away from the negativity and "forget about life for a while".

      Bit difficult to do that when I witnessed racial abuse and blatant sexism at five of the last six games i went.
      Swab
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #6: Jan 12, 2021 04:33:23 pm
      Regardless of which "wing" it comes from, i wish all political crap would stay out of the sport. Part of the reason people watch sports is to get away from the negativity and "forget about life for a while".

      Liverpool FC is a club built on the politics of the city, with Shankly's legacy being the socialist ideal of everyone working together for the common good.
      This is also Klopp's philosophy, which he has stated clearly on a number of occasions.
      As a working man's sport, football has always been very political, and so has the City of Liverpool, one of the few unchanging socialist bastions in the UK.

      Might be an idea to learn the club and city's history.
      Swab
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #7: Jan 12, 2021 04:36:26 pm
      If taking a knee is, to your mind, a far left ideology, you may need to check how far right you've gone.

      It's one of the many ways neo nazis try to undermine and downgrade criticism of racism.
      They can't be seen to be doing it directly, so they use snide insinuations.

      Truth is, the far left and what are laughably called "Marxists" are pretty much extinct these days.
      tezmac
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #8: Jan 12, 2021 04:43:59 pm
      Cu*ts club, full of c**t,  for cu*ts, so why be surprised by cuntish behaviour
      ozi_wozzy
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #9: Jan 12, 2021 07:05:44 pm
      Cu*ts club, full of c**t,  for cu*ts, so why be surprised by cuntish behaviour

      I agree although you've expressed it more elegantly than I would have.

      It's one of the many ways neo nazis try to undermine and downgrade criticism of racism.
      They can't be seen to be doing it directly, so they use snide insinuations.

      Truth is, the far left and what are laughably called "Marxists" are pretty much extinct these days.

      Well quite, and not just the club but the city, it's the whole reason Thatcher tried to destroy Liverpool. Nobody in the city should tolerate the right wingers trying to undermine what we stand for.

      I'm still furious that Everton have tried to cover up a fascist salute by one of their senior players. It's utterly despicable.
      Shabs
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #10: Jan 12, 2021 07:39:09 pm
      “Ole, ole, Maggie's dead, dead, dead"

      I think football/sport is a great vehicle to make a political point...

      heimdall
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #11: Jan 12, 2021 08:07:20 pm
      If taking a knee is, to your mind, a far left ideology, you may need to check how far right you've gone.

      Interesting, how about the raised fist? It used to signify Black Power, linked to the Black Panther movement, about as racist as the nazi salute, does that also mean something else now?
      In all seriousness I'm not on a wind up here, have these political symbologies been completely absorbed by the anti racism movement these days?
      LFC PAUL
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #12: Jan 12, 2021 08:11:10 pm
      I 100% agree that there should be no politics in football but isn't taking the knee also a political statement in favour of BLM, which is a far-left movement? 
      Yes yes I know its meant as an anti-racist gesture, which is laudable, but it also happens to be the symbol or gesture for BLM the marxist political movement.

      BLM is not a far left movement but certain people would like others to think it was
      heimdall
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #13: Jan 12, 2021 08:21:22 pm
      BLM is not a far left movement but certain people would like others to think it was

      Erm yes it is, certainly one of its founders was. https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/

      To be clear I fully support the anti racism movement but I do not like BLM as a movement /organisation and I view taking the knee as more of a nod to blm rather than against racism although the lines are now quite blurred.
      FL Red
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #14: Jan 14, 2021 12:26:13 pm
      BLM is not a far left movement but certain people would like others to think it was

      The “movement” isn’t far left. It includes people that are fighting for equality no matter their political affiliation; however, one of the co-founders has admitted to being a Marxist and the actual organization itself (not the movement) does have shady underpinnings, in fact there was an article I read awhile back about how the local groups were upset at the National leadership of the organization because of the money grabbing it was doing. Just like any large organization it’s getting bastardized to make a subset of people a bunch of money.

      The taking of the knee in my opinion has no purpose or effect at this point. Everyone gets it, is it really bringing any more awareness? Everyone knows why it’s being done so at this point it’s just become a checkmark.

      The problem is everyone feels that they need to have their good actions and their virtues “seen” by others so they can feel good about being part of something they think is helpful.

      Personally, I don’t feel the need to make overt gestures to show people how charitable or virtuous I am.


      Back to the original point, yes, we need to be mindful to not support any kind of hateful or spiteful actions or gestures, etc.... but we also have to be careful because while there are certain things that everyone agrees are wrong, once the line starts to blur you then run the risk of creating another problem which is legislating morality and thought. I’m personally in favor of free thought and free speech and if that means that a minority get to have their hateful and idiotic views expressed so that the majority of sane people can have a platform for their not hateful and idiotic views then so be it.

      heimdall
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #15: Jan 14, 2021 01:09:34 pm
      The “movement” isn’t far left. It includes people that are fighting for equality no matter their political affiliation; however, one of the co-founders has admitted to being a Marxist and the actual organization itself (not the movement) does have shady underpinnings, in fact there was an article I read awhile back about how the local groups were upset at the National leadership of the organization because of the money grabbing it was doing. Just like any large organization it’s getting bastardized to make a subset of people a bunch of money.

      The taking of the knee in my opinion has no purpose or effect at this point. Everyone gets it, is it really bringing any more awareness? Everyone knows why it’s being done so at this point it’s just become a checkmark.

      The problem is everyone feels that they need to have their good actions and their virtues “seen” by others so they can feel good about being part of something they think is helpful.

      Personally, I don’t feel the need to make overt gestures to show people how charitable or virtuous I am.


      Back to the original point, yes, we need to be mindful to not support any kind of hateful or spiteful actions or gestures, etc.... but we also have to be careful because while there are certain things that everyone agrees are wrong, once the line starts to blur you then run the risk of creating another problem which is legislating morality and thought. I’m personally in favor of free thought and free speech and if that means that a minority get to have their hateful and idiotic views expressed so that the majority of sane people can have a platform for their not hateful and idiotic views then so be it.



      Good post, I agree 100% with this.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #16: Jan 16, 2021 05:07:45 pm
      How did you all feel about Liverpool fans being smeared as the Khmer Rouge by our own Head of Communications in the fight against Hicks and Gillet?
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #17: Jan 16, 2021 05:10:32 pm
      Back to the original point, yes, we need to be mindful to not support any kind of hateful or spiteful actions or gestures, etc.... but we also have to be careful because while there are certain things that everyone agrees are wrong, once the line starts to blur you then run the risk of creating another problem which is legislating morality and thought. I’m personally in favor of free thought and free speech and if that means that a minority get to have their hateful and idiotic views expressed so that the majority of sane people can have a platform for their not hateful and idiotic views then so be it.



      Like torching a Stars and Stripes in the initial protest I remember fans having outside Anfield re H & G
      Dadorious
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #18: Jan 18, 2021 05:33:56 am
      Apologies if this is in the wrong section, so admins please move / delete thread if you need to. I feel strongly about this subject so I wanted to get people's opinions.

      I was furious when I witnessed Cenk Tosun flash the "Grey Wolves" salute in the weekend in their game against Rotherham. To put it into context, Grey Wolves are a far right extremist political movement in Turkey. It's the equivalent of a Nazi salute and the movement has been banned in France, Austria with others considering the ban.

      He has laughably denied knowledge of the movement and said he was simply pointing to the sky and Everton have disgracefully covered it up by standing by his explanation. FA, predictably have accepted Everton's version of events.

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/01/10/fa-looking-cenk-tosun-celebration-player-denies-linked-turkish/

      Everton have their own agenda in that they do not wish to be associated with racism, and are trying to offload Tosun. Acknowledging and apologizing for his fascist political views would impact his valuation and suitors. But they must be held accountable for this despicable behaviour. It's an insult to all fans in the city and undoes so much good work that is being done .

      What are people's opinions / views on the matter in terms of how to go about raising this through the right channels? We all agree racism needs to be kicked out, but I am more interested in existing official channels that can be explored, contacts that can be made or anything I can use to ensure Everton as a club do the right thing by the fans and the city, and publicly apologise for this horrendous act.

      Will you be celebrating Australia Day on the 26th mate? Let me play devils advocate a little.
      ozi_wozzy
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #19: Jan 21, 2021 01:22:19 pm
      Will you be celebrating Australia Day on the 26th mate? Let me play devils advocate a little.

      I think, as a couple of people have pointed out, the line is becoming blurred on what should and shouldn't be allowed. Personally, I don't think any sign of political activism should be allowed on the field, that includes left or right, even BLM. Full stop. I think BLM is, as good intentioned as it may be, taking the debate in the wrong direction. The real issue is inequality and injustice at so many levels whether it's rich vs poor, black vs white, political left vs political right.

      BLM has reduced the debate to a race issue. Of course racism needs to be kicked out, that bit is obvious to anyone with sense. But a lot of people from poor working class families also get shot by police or killed by right wing militias across the world. From Philippines to India, Russia to USA, countless countries, and to refer to Cenk's Grey Wolves sign...Kurds in Turkey at the hands of the Grey Wolves he supports. This is the real issue, and should be tackled off the field, not on it.

      My reasoning is this - the game is watched by millions, including many young people who are impressionable and may think it's ok to go round flashing fascist salutes after seeing that. The game should be about football only on the field.

      Off the field, if a player wants to express their political views, they have the absolute right to do so whether it's support for UKIP or Lib Dems, BLM or "Antifa", Labour or Tories. What clubs tolerate as acceptable to their values and culture should be managed at club level, and players not in line with club values should be punished by clubs as they see appropriate. This is why I was so incensed that Everton have failed to punish Cenk for what is essentially a fascist salute on the field. They have displayed extraordinary levels of disrespect towards the game and the fans.

      Sorry for the long answer, but if you want a short one, I will not celebrate Australia day as I'm not Australian :) If I was though, I would celebrate, but wouldn't have wanted Harry Kewell to celebrate it on the field when he scored.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #20: Jan 24, 2021 03:01:48 pm
      I think, as a couple of people have pointed out, the line is becoming blurred on what should and shouldn't be allowed. Personally, I don't think any sign of political activism should be allowed on the field, that includes left or right, even BLM. Full stop. I think BLM is, as good intentioned as it may be, taking the debate in the wrong direction. The real issue is inequality and injustice at so many levels whether it's rich vs poor, black vs white, political left vs political right.

      BLM has reduced the debate to a race issue. Of course racism needs to be kicked out, that bit is obvious to anyone with sense. But a lot of people from poor working class families also get shot by police or killed by right wing militias across the world. From Philippines to India, Russia to USA, countless countries, and to refer to Cenk's Grey Wolves sign...Kurds in Turkey at the hands of the Grey Wolves he supports. This is the real issue, and should be tackled off the field, not on it.

      My reasoning is this - the game is watched by millions, including many young people who are impressionable and may think it's ok to go round flashing fascist salutes after seeing that. The game should be about football only on the field.

      Off the field, if a player wants to express their political views, they have the absolute right to do so whether it's support for UKIP or Lib Dems, BLM or "Antifa", Labour or Tories. What clubs tolerate as acceptable to their values and culture should be managed at club level, and players not in line with club values should be punished by clubs as they see appropriate. This is why I was so incensed that Everton have failed to punish Cenk for what is essentially a fascist salute on the field. They have displayed extraordinary levels of disrespect towards the game and the fans.

      Sorry for the long answer, but if you want a short one, I will not celebrate Australia day as I'm not Australian :) If I was though, I would celebrate, but wouldn't have wanted Harry Kewell to celebrate it on the field when he scored.

      Can the kop still sing "Maggie's in the mud"
      ozi_wozzy
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #21: Jan 29, 2021 12:32:42 pm
      Can the kop still sing "Maggie's in the mud"

      Absolutely :)
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: Political extremism in football must be held to account
      Reply #22: Jun 08, 2021 04:58:24 pm

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