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      The title race

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      heimdall
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #276: Feb 04, 2021 02:57:51 pm
      I've been trying to put my finger on what our problem(s) are for a few weeks, and while I definitely haven't identified the root cause and solution to our woes, there are a number of things that seem to be contributing factors.  Here are a few of the things I've noticed over the past couple of months. 

      Defense: Many people have been quick to point to the fact that we've lost our 2 starting CB's -- the partnership that was the foundation for our title win last season.  While I'm sure this has had an impact, I think it has been more of a knock on effect in that we miss Hendo and/or Fabinho in midfield.  If you throw out the game against Villa (which both VVD and Gomez were involved in) we have conceded 18 goals in 21 games.  City have the best defensive record in the league with 13 goals conceded in 21 games, but it's not a massive difference.  We have still been fairly resiliant and stubborn in defense for most of the season.  The recent run of losses and draws is more down to our inability to pose a threat up the other end of the pitch. 

      Midfield:  There appear to be a combination of issues impacting our midfield.  First off, Fab and Hendo are among the best CM's in the league (maybe the world) and they are playing out of position to cover our injuries at CB.  Gini and Thiago are also top quality CM's so on paper we shouldn't be lacking too much in the way of quality in the center of the pitch, but it isn't working out that way.  As much as I hate to admit it, Thiago just isn't clicking with the rest of the team.  He is arguably our most talented player, but he plays on a different wavelength to the rest of his teammates.  The tactics that we have used in recent seasons -- high pressing tactics that won us the CL and Prem -- are breaking down because we aren't able to press with the same sort of high defensive line and energy in midfield that we used to.  I love Thiago and I want us to find a way to make it work with him in the team, but that may mean making a change to our formation, tactics, and personnel to get other players playing a more elegant style rather than the direct footie we have become accustomed to. 

      Attack:  Where to begin?  Mo is scoring goals, but that is about it.  A few seasons ago he was making selfless, lung busting runs, chasing down everything in the channels, and just making a nuisance of himself in general.  Much of that selfless play has disappeared from his game which I think is having a detrimental impact on the other forwards, as well as our midfielders because the movement is poor and they lack passing options.  Moving onto Bobby -- he has gone completely off the boil.  His movement off the ball has been poor, as well as his touch, passing, and vision to link with his fellow attackers.  Pair this with the fact that most teams are sitting deep and playing long ball against us and that pretty much eliminates the other key part of his game as the first man in our high press -- teams are just bypassing our press and playing over the top or around the sides.  Mane has been off form, but for me he is at least still doing the hard work that our team relies on to create space and opportunities to score.  He is making runs, running at defenders with the ball, pressing and closing the ball down, tracking back on defense, etc.  It isn't happening in front of goal for him at the moment, but his luck will turn at some point.  Jota was the star of the show in the first couple of months, and we've really been missing his movement and energy across the front line.  Need him back asap!

      I think it's safe to say that City look to have 1 hand on the title already.  They have rattled off 13 straight wins, and don't look like anyone is going to catch them. 

      The big question is -- where do we go from here? 

      Does one of Kabak or Davies help solve our CB problem so that Hendo can move back into midfield? 

      Do we stick or twist on Thiago? 

      Do we switch from 4-3-3 to a 4-2-3-1?  Personally, I think if we play Thiago in the Alonso role with a proper #10 playing behind our front 3, that would give teams who try to sit deep a completely different task as we would have genuine creativity and threat coming through the middle. 

      What happens with fringe players like Shaq, Origi, Ox, and Keita?  Personally, I think we need to try to move on from all 4 of these over the summer and get in 2 replacements who are capable of genuinely challenging for a spot in the starting 11.  Jota aside, there is too big of a drop in quality between our regular starting 11 and the backups we have to call on.  Unfortunatley, this season we have been unlucky with injuries and are being punished for not having the same sort of quality in reserve as the likes of City and United. 

      A good analysis but in my opinion it boils down to this:

      1) We have a very good team to play against teams who play open attack minded football.
      2) We have an incredibly poor team to play against teams who engage in Low Block tactics.

      The reason for this is with our tactical inflexibility, for example in an open game it is absolutely correct for our midfielders to sit as a tight unit just infront of our defence and we don't want them too venture to far forward, they are basically covering for Trent and Robbo when they venture forwards. This does not work against a Low Block, against a Low Block the FullBacks have to work differently and the midfielders have to work differently, they both need to be far more proactive in going forwards, linking up play and getting into the 16-yard box. You also need forwards who are good at link up play and can take shots form distance and crucially meet crosses.
      The issue we have is that as much as Salah is amazing in an Open game he is next to useless in a Low Block game, he is far to easy to shut out of the game, Bobby is actually much better just his final touch is crap at the moment. The best in that type of game are Mane and Jota
      In midfield it obviously won't work with a midfield trio of Thiago, Milner and Gini. Thiago could be useful as the Playmaker/Quarterback but without runners he is powerless. The two other midfielders have to act as runners and they have to drive the ball forwards, make the defence nervous with quick runs.  Our issue is that the only player who fits that bill is Keita, Curtis and Ox. Unfortunately one is permanently injured, one is still very young and the other is way out of form.

      The immediate short term solution from my point of view is to put as much attacking threat as possible into midfield, even possibly putting Salah there and perhaps put some genuine height up front, I'd honestly consider playing one of the CB's there as a target man to try to provide knock downs and get onto the end of some crosses. Longer term we need to buy some more attacking talent in midfield and I would love for us to get a taller Center Forward even just to come off the bench and offer something different. I know some might scoff at that suggestion but we have to try something different and it can't be worse than it is now, 1 shot on target all game!!
      I do also think the addition of Jota and Mane will also massively help in these type of games
      Arab Scouse
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #277: Feb 04, 2021 03:13:34 pm
      This is a freak season.

      No one expected that 3 of our main CBs getting injured all season. Imagine if Man City lost Ake, Laporte & Dias long term.

      No one also expected that players like TAA, Alisson, Fabinho, Thiago, Mane, Jota, Henderson & Salah going in and out of the team because of injuries.

      We changed our back line a lot and we changed our team a lot this season just to accommodate our injuries.

      We had Mane, Jota, VVD, Gomez, Matip, Fabinho & Alisson out for the Brighton game, that's 7 key players out. How can we build some sort of consistency when our players keep getting injured and playing Henderson as a CB with Nat Philipps who isn't even good enough for a title winning team.

      I think we are just really unlucky.

      We probably won't win the league this season, but I think we will end up in the top 3 and sign a few good players and go again next season.

      time will tell
      fields of anny rd
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #278: Feb 04, 2021 03:38:24 pm
      Can debate it for all eternity but injuries and a smallish squad will be the reasons and maybe now some  faigue on top of it.

      Once it became clear the title had gone you could argue a bit of sulking on top as well.

      Combine it all together you have a mess.
      Borg
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #279: Feb 04, 2021 04:47:43 pm
      With regards to the offense, my main peeves are:

      1) How LFC is so damn content allowing opponents time to park the bus before attempting to probe the 11 man wall.

      2) How LFC is almost conditioned not to make leading passes. Their station to station passes lead to too many stationary moments. You watch a team like Barca  & Real Madrid fly down the field with players never having to stop for a pass that is aimed where the player was...LFC style. It's infuriating.

      3) On the few attempts LFC takes the ball into the corners and then delivers a crossing pass behind the defenders,  it is a rarity that any forward is on the leading edge to receive such a pass. MNC has perfected this strategy, LFC does not believe in it these days. In 2018, LFC thrived with this style. Sure, it leads to a more open game and clearly Kopp is protective of his make shift lineups that he likely perceives as vulnerable defensively. Still, can't ever secure 3 points without scoring at least one goal.

      4) The corner kick game is inept. The reasons are clear....no big targets now......but it's still inept.

      I wonder what Thiago is thinking right now. Bayerne didn't play keep away like LFC is so content to do. Bayerne's forwards made constant runs that were rewarded by Thiago and Co. This station to station keep away game is failing.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #280: Feb 04, 2021 05:51:54 pm
      This is a freak season.

      Imagine if Man City lost Ake, Laporte & Dias long term.



      Look at how losing just Laporte fu**ed them last season.
      king kenny
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #281: Feb 04, 2021 07:13:18 pm
      Here, here.. It's not a case of giving up it's being realistic. At the moment we are in the top four race so let's worry about that, who knows it may yet still develop into a title race but it's not likely now tbh.
      Get some CBs in at CB and reignite that midfield, if the players have the belief and desire still we can deffo have a good crack at big ears number 7..

      We've got 9 points from our last 8 games,  the title has been gift wrapped to City.   United can put pressure on them we aren't in a position at the moment.   The way the season has gone with the amount of fixtures it was always going to favour City with their depth in squad.   Add our horrendous injury problems it isn't our year.   Can we win it?  No chance City will have to have a catastrophe and at this moment of time if a miracle happened,  I'd have to say it is them that lost it.    That's how I feel at the moment.  We've done really well against the better teams think if we can continue that by winning city on Sunday we are in a good position to have a good run in the Champions League. 

      billythered
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #282: Feb 04, 2021 07:27:24 pm
      Well maybe I live in f***in cuckoo land, and have two pencils sticking out from my nostrils but I’m not giving up yet, not until it is mathematically impossible, it may look like a bridge too far and the City Dhow is sailing towards the horizon, but the waters are choppy this season and anything can happen between now and the point of no return, so buckle up mother fuckers cos I ain’t ready to throw the f***in towel in just yet,

      From reading what Jürgen has said I think it might just be possible he’s thinking about throwing caution to the wind and changing back to what we are best at, most of us agree that Hendo Fabinho and maybe Thiago is our best and strongest midfield trio, not  dis-counting Gini, what that obviously means is yet another CB pairing with Phillips and Davies, most likely,

      And why not, let’s give it a go, we have nothing to lose and everything to gain especially the 3 points on Sunday, If it goes f***in tits up we can truly F**k the league off and go all out for No7, but obviously keep in mind a top 4 finish,


      Like you guys I’m at a loss to why we can’t get past the bus parking lot, we can see what is happening each and every time but it’s unfathomable how we just can’t find a way through, so f***in frustrating especially after the two previous games where we all thought normal services had returned, so F**k it, it’s gone now, so let’s forget it and move the F**k on,

      It may feel that we’re chucking Ben Davies under the bus, but what a baptism of fire, I’ve seen enough from Nat Phillips to be confident he could hold his own with the rookie, but he will have Fabinho & Hendo in front to Chuck their gums and get them through the 90+,.....


                                               Alisson
                             Trent   Phillips    Davies   Robbo
                                              Fabinho
                                 Hendo                  Thiago
                                       Salah           Mane
                                               Firmino


      The sh*t hit the fan last night and I’m betting All of Manchester were f***in delighted, despite all of the uncertainty we get three points Sunday it’s back on for me albeit still a mountain to climb, we simply just cannot just give it up so readily, we have to fight, and fight we will, our club has never shied away from adversity, so let’s f***in do this,let’s show them that Champions do not give up easily .


      WE GO AGAIN ! !



                                                                                  Y  N  W  A



      Robby The Z
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #283: Feb 04, 2021 07:41:24 pm
      I was just at the gym and listening to The Red Agenda podcast with Simon Hughes and James Pearce. It was recorded after the transfer window closed and I had listened to the first part of the episode about transfers. I went to listen to the rest and realized it was about the West Ham result and our team returning to form. Was recorded three days ago, mind, but it was like listening to something from a time capsule. The mood was buoyant and the commentary just full of superlatives about our performances and our prospects.

      Similar to how we've been on here from the beginning of the week until now. It's really kind of mad, isn't it?

      I hope each of you, as you go through the mental nature of this mental season, take a moment to step back and breathe, pet your dog or cat, say something nice to a child, do something nice for a pensioner, just something to remember that however disappointed we get at the football, the world keeps turning and in the end we are only responsible for our own actions, not all the things we don't control. Writing this to myself as much as anyone, but hopefully we can all just get our bearings again.

      Oh, and we can earn a famous win vs. Man City on Sunday. How cool would that be?  :D
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #284: Feb 04, 2021 07:48:24 pm
      Apparently our form from when watford beat us 3-0 last season is:

      Wins - 23
      Draws - 10
      Losses - 12

      Thats alarmingly average.
      saille29
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #285: Feb 04, 2021 07:50:11 pm
      Well maybe I live in f***in cuckoo land, and have two pencils sticking out from my nostrils but I’m not giving up yet, not until it is mathematically impossible, it may look like a bridge too far and the City Dhow is sailing towards the horizon, but the waters are choppy this season and anything can happen between now and the point of no return, so buckle up mother fuckers cos I ain’t ready to throw the f***in towel in just yet,

      From reading what Jürgen has said I think it might just be possible he’s thinking about throwing caution to the wind and changing back to what we are best at, most of us agree that Hendo Fabinho and maybe Thiago is our best and strongest midfield trio, not  dis-counting Gini, what that obviously means is yet another CB pairing with Phillips and Davies, most likely,

      And why not, let’s give it a go, we have nothing to lose and everything to gain especially the 3 points on Sunday, If it goes f***in tits up we can truly f**k the league off and go all out for No7, but obviously keep in mind a top 4 finish,


      Like you guys I’m at a loss to why we can’t get past the bus parking lot, we can see what is happening each and every time but it’s unfathomable how we just can’t find a way through, so f***in frustrating especially after the two previous games where we all thought normal services had returned, so f**k it, it’s gone now, so let’s forget it and move the f**k on,

      It may feel that we’re chucking Ben Davies under the bus, but what a baptism of fire, I’ve seen enough from Nat Phillips to be confident he could hold his own with the rookie, but he will have Fabinho & Hendo in front to Chuck their gums and get them through the 90+,.....


                                               Alisson
                             Trent   Phillips    Davies   Robbo
                                              Fabinho
                                 Hendo                  Thiago
                                       Salah           Mane
                                               Firmino


      The sh*t hit the fan last night and I’m betting All of Manchester were f***in delighted, despite all of the uncertainty we get three points Sunday it’s back on for me albeit still a mountain to climb, we simply just cannot just give it up so readily, we have to fight, and fight we will, our club has never shied away from adversity, so let’s f***in do this,let’s show them that Champions do not give up easily .


      WE GO AGAIN ! !



                                                                                  Y  N  W  A





      Love the power of positive thinking, we got 16 games left & we've won 18 on the bounce not once but twice ! Gonna be a hell of a run but not impossible
      tezmac
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #286: Feb 04, 2021 08:24:12 pm
      With City 7 points clear a game in hand and a better goal difference I think it is irrelevant what kind of a run we go on City wouldhave to loose 4 games and we win the rest of our games to go ahead in the cold light of day you have to say it's unlikely we will retain the Premiership
      heimdall
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #287: Feb 04, 2021 08:47:35 pm
      Look at how losing just Laporte fu**ed them last season.

      yeah they'd be down to only 2 senior CB's, plus would have bought replacements the 1st of January and not bargain bin stuff, but top dollar.
      heimdall
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #288: Feb 04, 2021 08:50:56 pm
      I was just at the gym and listening to The Red Agenda podcast with Simon Hughes and James Pearce. It was recorded after the transfer window closed and I had listened to the first part of the episode about transfers. I went to listen to the rest and realized it was about the West Ham result and our team returning to form. Was recorded three days ago, mind, but it was like listening to something from a time capsule. The mood was buoyant and the commentary just full of superlatives about our performances and our prospects.

      Similar to how we've been on here from the beginning of the week until now. It's really kind of mad, isn't it?

      I hope each of you, as you go through the mental nature of this mental season, take a moment to step back and breathe, pet your dog or cat, say something nice to a child, do something nice for a pensioner, just something to remember that however disappointed we get at the football, the world keeps turning and in the end we are only responsible for our own actions, not all the things we don't control. Writing this to myself as much as anyone, but hopefully we can all just get our bearings again.

      Oh, and we can earn a famous win vs. Man City on Sunday. How cool would that be?  :D

      Of course, its only football, I've kind of reconciled myself to not winning the league this season, just like I did after City beat Leicester 2 seasons ago. It hurts like hell but in the grand scheme of things its really not that important, plus we still have the CL to look forward to. As long as none of those teams go Low Block against us we have every chance for #7.
      heimdall
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #289: Feb 04, 2021 08:53:14 pm
      Love the power of positive thinking, we got 16 games left & we've won 18 on the bounce not once but twice ! Gonna be a hell of a run but not impossible

      Love the optimism but until we are able to defeat the low block then forget about stringing together a run of 18 games. I like a lot f fyou was quite optimistic after back to back wins but yesterday was a crushing blow and a reminder that we have still not solved this problem, not even close, in fact not even any sign of improvement.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #290: Feb 04, 2021 08:56:29 pm
      Ain’t over yet... this is ours..
      fields of anny rd
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #291: Feb 04, 2021 09:22:17 pm
      Ain’t over yet... this is ours..

      City wont lose 4 games from here even if we went on to win all of our games. Which of course we wont. Sadly the bird has flown. We lost it just after Xmas.

      Top 4 race is on now to save ourselves from this team being broken up next season.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #292: Feb 04, 2021 09:35:33 pm
      City wont lose 4 games from here even if we went on to win all of our games. Which of course we wont. Sadly the bird has flown. We lost it just after Xmas.

      Top 4 race is on now to save ourselves from this team being broken up next season.

      Top 4.... 😂😂😂

      Buckle up kiddo... fun just starting..
      Brian78
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #293: Feb 04, 2021 10:32:35 pm
      City wont lose 4 games from here even if we went on to win all of our games. Which of course we wont. Sadly the bird has flown. We lost it just after Xmas.

      Top 4 race is on now to save ourselves from this team being broken up next season.

      I think you are right, except even had we won it this season Id still break the team up, only so many times you can go to the well

      City will lose Sunday but will they lose 3 more after that with us matching them win wise?
      Robby The Z
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #294: Feb 04, 2021 11:35:32 pm
      Apparently our form from when watford beat us 3-0 last season is:

      Wins - 23
      Draws - 10
      Losses - 12

      Thats alarmingly average.

      Wow. Just wow.

      first thing that comes to mind is Klopp's emphasis on training, and on building a base of superior fitness during his well-planned preseason program. After last season's shutdown the team hasn't really had that. To me that has brought us back to the pack. We're still capable of putting together strong performances, but not as consistently.
       
      This team needs a reset, but it won't happen until the summer. Another argument for prioritizing the Champions League.


      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #295: Feb 04, 2021 11:50:03 pm
      Wow. Just wow.

      first thing that comes to mind is Klopp's emphasis on training, and on building a base of superior fitness during his well-planned preseason program. After last season's shutdown the team hasn't really had that. To me that has brought us back to the pack. We're still capable of putting together strong performances, but not as consistently.
       
      This team needs a reset, but it won't happen until the summer. Another argument for prioritizing the Champions League.

      Scary stats those aren’t they.

      That isn’t just a small blip in form, thats 45 games. And we’re winning roughly 50% of those.  I didn’t realise it was that bad and I’m a bit concerned now.

      There are several reasons for those poor numbers but the bottom line is it’s not good enough. If we carry on with those sort of numbers then we will struggle for the top four this season so we need to drastically improve.
      Rush Goalie
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #296: Feb 05, 2021 12:02:30 am
      Ain’t over yet... this is ours..

      My head doesn't agree but my heart loves the fire in your belly.. COYRM... I'm the same but for more so for big ears number seven. Either way it's a siege mentality.. Bring it on🤜
      srslfc
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #297: Feb 05, 2021 01:29:16 am
      City wont lose 4 games from here even if we went on to win all of our games. Which of course we wont. Sadly the bird has flown. We lost it just after Xmas.

      Top 4 race is on now to save ourselves from this team being broken up next season.

      Even in our poor run of form we're comfortably one of the best 4 sides in the league and I don't see any of the teams below us overtaking us or United and Leicester.

      City are a different story and whole not impossible they will be difficult to catch now and we really have to beta them on Sunday to reduce the deficit.

      On the team being broken up I thinks that needs to happen regardless to a certain extent. Even if we did go on and win the league this season I feel some sort of rebuild is needed to freshen things up and regain momentum with a couple of really top quality fresh signings, even if that means one of our big guns moving on.
      heimdall
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      Re: The title race
      Reply #298: Feb 05, 2021 09:11:15 am
      Even in our poor run of form we're comfortably one of the best 4 sides in the league and I don't see any of the teams below us overtaking us or United and Leicester.

      City are a different story and whole not impossible they will be difficult to catch now and we really have to beta them on Sunday to reduce the deficit.

      On the team being broken up I thinks that needs to happen regardless to a certain extent. Even if we did go on and win the league this season I feel some sort of rebuild is needed to freshen things up and regain momentum with a couple of really top quality fresh signings, even if that means one of our big guns moving on.

      There is simply no way that City will lose 4 more games than us in the the remaining fixtures, the only slim chance we had was winning against Brighton and then beating City, that would have taken us to 4 points behind them (assuming they win game in hand). As it is even if we beat them on Sunday we are 7 points behind which equates to 3 wins. We would then need to win all our remaining games to put pressure on them but it simply won't happen.

      Our focus now has to be on securing CL for next season  which I expect us to do quite comfortably, even with our current sh*t run we are still in the top 4 and I do expect us to improve from now until the end of the season.

      Our other focus has to be on the current CL campaign and I think with a bit of good fortune we have a chance of getting #7, the reason for saying that is that we have actually been pretty good against the top teams so far, teams who play open football, so as long as we don't get Atletico or some team who deploys low block then we should be ok.

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