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      12th man

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      scotscouse
      • Forum Matt Busby
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      12th man
      Feb 05, 2021 12:42:38 am
      Do you think that the fact there are no fans at Anfield, is maybe having an affect on our teams performances and results at home? Take the Brighton game the crowd and atmosphere may have drove them on to get that vital equalising goal,the roared them on to a last minute winner ,it seems the home games to the lower teams is a great leveler with no fans [Thoughts]
      king kenny
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #1: Feb 05, 2021 12:48:42 am
      Definitely we miss our 12th man.  There  isn't much difference between playing home and away in this pandemic, it is why you see utd having better records away from home.   The team misses the 12th man we have a squad of legends that have delivered the league after 30 years we desperately need the crowds back, the team need their 12th man back and it is effecting our performances.
      Dadorious
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #2: Feb 05, 2021 01:23:32 am
      Embarrassing thread. Let’s not clutch  for excuses whilst I’m sure it’s a factor it’s the same for the other 19 clubs.
      scotscouse
      • Forum Matt Busby
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #3: Feb 05, 2021 06:28:08 pm
      No one looking for excuses ,just a topic to discuss ,like other posts for our below normal winning performances,ie injuries lack of cover for c/h,under performing individuals,no plan B for teams parking the bus etc ,thats what the forums for discussion between fellow Reds,how many times in the past have we come from behind to win the game in the closing minutes with the atmosphere from the crowd  that must have an affect on teams ,where as presently they are coming into basically a closed door game atmosphere ,thats where i think other teams have benefitted this season.

      UncleBob
      • Forum Ronnie Moran
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #4: Feb 05, 2021 07:53:36 pm
      It will have an impact, for sure.

      No pre season preparation.
      No fans.
      Teams forced to play u18s in cups.
      Not being able to play games at your own ground because of covid.
      Relentless fixture programme.
      Teams having to postpone games or play without key men because of covid.

      The list goes on. It’s the same for all clubs but generally will only suit the clubs with bigger squads.

      Iv said for a while it doesn’t feel like real football to me. I genuinely couldn’t care less about results at the minute. But for players and managers who’s feed off the emotion of the fans it’s bound to impact performances.

      It’s also coincided with this awful VAR which kills the thrill of celebrating goals as most get chalked off for comical finger nail possibilities.

      But going back to the original thread question, I think no fans is massive. Which is why we are getting such crazy results in the league this season. The results you only normally see in league cup games when players can’t be bothered.
      Brian78
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #5: Feb 05, 2021 10:50:38 pm
      No...

      our inability to learn from old mistakes  is the reason. F**k all else
      lfc across the water
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #6: Feb 05, 2021 10:59:03 pm
      Quote from UncleBob
      It will have an impact, for sure.

      No pre season preparation.
      No fans.
      Teams forced to play u18s in cups.
      Not being able to play games at your own ground because of covid.
      Relentless fixture programme.
      Teams having to postpone games or play without key men because of covid.

      The list goes on. It’s the same for all clubs but generally will only suit the clubs with bigger squads.

      Iv said for a while it doesn’t feel like real football to me. I genuinely couldn’t care less about results at the minute. But for players and managers who’s feed off the emotion of the fans it’s bound to impact performances.

      It’s also coincided with this awful VAR which kills the thrill of celebrating goals as most get chalked off for comical finger nail possibilities.

      But going back to the original thread question, I think no fans is massive. Which is why we are getting such crazy results in the league this season. The results you only normally see in league cup games when players can’t be bothered.

      There were fans at 4 of our games this season. We won 2. If we need them, why didn't we win the other two? I think we'll see limited fans back in the stadiums again after Easter, but it will be considerably longer before we're back to full stadiums and packed pubs outside the ground, and longer again before away fans are allowed to travel to games. But the team can't use the lack of fans as an excuse for results, it's the same for everyone atm, and it applies to us as much as everyone else.

      The fixture list is relentless, it has always been relentless. If you're not in the EPL, it's even more so. Our pre season was in 2 parts, one in May when training restarted, and the other in August where 2 friendlies and the Charity Shield were played. In fact, it is and probably will be the only pre season where Jürgen had all his squad together at the same time. The Euros Copa America and Olympics will mean another disrupted pre season again next season.

      With so much at stake, VAR needs to check that every goal scored in our games (and the league in general) is valid, which most goals are. It may not quite be the football you grew up with, but it's long overdue, it isn't going away, so the sooner you get used to it the better.
      UncleBob
      • Forum Ronnie Moran
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #7: Feb 06, 2021 12:25:59 am
      There were fans at 4 of our games this season. We won 2. If we need them, why didn't we win the other two? I think we'll see limited fans back in the stadiums again after Easter, but it will be considerably longer before we're back to full stadiums and packed pubs outside the ground, and longer again before away fans are allowed to travel to games. But the team can't use the lack of fans as an excuse for results, it's the same for everyone atm, and it applies to us as much as everyone else.

      The fixture list is relentless, it has always been relentless. If you're not in the EPL, it's even more so. Our pre season was in 2 parts, one in May when training restarted, and the other in August where 2 friendlies and the Charity Shield were played. In fact, it is and probably will be the only pre season where Jürgen had all his squad together at the same time. The Euros Copa America and Olympics will mean another disrupted pre season again next season.

      With so much at stake, VAR needs to check that every goal scored in our games (and the league in general) is valid, which most goals are. It may not quite be the football you grew up with, but it's long overdue, it isn't going away, so the sooner you get used to it the better.

      Having fans doesn’t guarantee you win games. And this season when we have had fans it was a few thousand. But if you’re telling me that it’s not having an impact then you don’t understand the chemistry between fans and players in football. The great European nights are all about the atmosphere.
      It’s the same for every team but football isn’t football without the fans and that chemistry.

      As for VAR, I have no problem with the concept but when you see decisions that are still debatable and sometimes not even clear, then that’s just taking away from the raw emotion. It’s too flawed at the minute and needs sorting sooner rather than later.
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #8: Feb 06, 2021 08:59:50 am
      Embarrassing thread. Let’s not clutch  for excuses whilst I’m sure it’s a factor it’s the same for the other 19 clubs.

      Bit unfair on the lad I think, mate. Definitely a factor for everyone but is it more so for us. Lack of a 12th man is worth a discussion, in my opinion
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #9: Feb 06, 2021 12:22:31 pm
      Isn't this a bit like night follows day? Of course we massively miss the the backing of the fans. It's been obvious through the lockdown periods. It's not just us though, the urgency or lack of it from certain players and teams in games is vastly different in empty stadiums.
      Brian78
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #10: Feb 06, 2021 12:27:22 pm
      The 2 biggest factors are the savage injury list added to the fact that for 3 years solid this squad went to the well. That has an effect. Anyone who thinks it does not has not played a team sport.

      Fans might give them a lift at times in games but it doesnt mean we all of a sudden learn to break down banks of 10 which is our main failling this season
      lfc across the water
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #11: Feb 07, 2021 08:56:48 pm
      Quote from UncleBob
      Having fans doesn’t guarantee you win games. And this season when we have had fans it was a few thousand. But if you’re telling me that it’s not having an impact then you don’t understand the chemistry between fans and players in football. The great European nights are all about the atmosphere.
      It’s the same for every team but football isn’t football without the fans and that chemistry.

      As for VAR, I have no problem with the concept but when you see decisions that are still debatable and sometimes not even clear, then that’s just taking away from the raw emotion. It’s too flawed at the minute and needs sorting sooner rather than later.

      If you know the rules of the game, you can see why most decisions are made, even if you don't agree with them. I get the whole emotion argument, but emotion doesn't win points or prizes. Decisions win and lose points, therefore they must be correct. We're playing for the most valuable trophies in the sport. Offside is offside, it's not a little bit offside, it's not the benefit of the doubt, it's not a grey area, it's offside. The accuracy % rate of decisions now is well into the high 90's, so there are just a handful of decisions now that I can't justify.

      We all want fans in the ground, but unfortunately it's not possible, for reasons that go far beyond sport, and it's something we have no control over. We won 8 of our first 9 home games in an empty Anfield, so we have shown that we can win games in the current circumstances. The games have to be played whether the stadium is full or empty, and we can't just throw the towel in when it's the latter. It's the same for everyone, and it can't be used every time we don't win a game.
      Isaac!
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #12: Feb 07, 2021 09:25:47 pm
      We've seen dozens of results this season that would normally happen only once in a decade, if that. Deniers need to explain this.

      When Klopp became our manager he put enormous emphasis on improving the fans connection to and belief in the team. He did that because he recognises how imperative the energy and support of the crowd is. We should know this more than anyone FFS. Klopp's teams are about energy, everything they are depends upon it and they can't work without it. Remove the crowd ( including a crowd willing us to lose ) and you take away half the game, you take away the reason to play at all.
      OConnor
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #13: Feb 07, 2021 09:58:48 pm
      I think our fans are unique and have drove some average players to be better and made some results go our way. Defiantly missed our fans.
      Dadorious
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #14: Feb 09, 2021 08:17:33 am
      Bit unfair on the lad I think, mate. Definitely a factor for everyone but is it more so for us. Lack of a 12th man is worth a discussion, in my opinion

      Not for me just adds to the narrative of “bad champions” I could understand if we were talking about a one off knockout game where the atmosphere could have carried us over the line. But we’ve dropped too many points at home and lost to Burnley and Brighton in the process not so sure you need 58,000 fans to beat those two in the circumstances. Can understand the horror injuries, congested fixture list, but don’t buy in to this when it’s the same for everyone latest I’ve heard on social media is that the champions parade not happening has mentally drained us more clutching.
      what-a-hit-son
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      • @MrPrice1979
      Re: 12th man
      Reply #15: Feb 09, 2021 09:06:54 am
      Not for me just adds to the narrative of “bad champions” I could understand if we were talking about a one off knockout game where the atmosphere could have carried us over the line. But we’ve dropped too many points at home and lost to Burnley and Brighton in the process not so sure you need 58,000 fans to beat those two in the circumstances. Can understand the horror injuries, congested fixture list, but don’t buy in to this when it’s the same for everyone latest I’ve heard on social media is that the champions parade not happening has mentally drained us more clutching.

      Not the point though. Yeah we should've beat them,  but we didn't, so, with fans, would we have?

      That City game would've been SO different if we had fans there.
      billythered
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #16: Feb 09, 2021 09:14:54 am
      Embarrassing thread. Let’s not clutch  for excuses whilst I’m sure it’s a factor it’s the same for the other 19 clubs.





      Why is it a embarrassing thread, and no one is looking for excuses, facts are facts, this club in particular has thrived on a full house of fans particularly at home, all of our players past and present have been lifted by our ‘World Famous’ support, in particular the European nights under the lights, it’s a special occasion because of the atmosphere created by the fans,

      Our current band of brothers on many occasions the last couple of seasons in particular have been lifted by our fans, home and away, professional footballers in every league level appreciation the support the receive from the terraces and become accustomed to the noise and atmosphere that is created, whether your running out to only a couple of thousand or upwards of 75,000 + said players expect it and it became part of the atmosphere, so when that atmosphere is no longer there, it will effect players moods and maybe even performance,

      A singer, a band or comedian playing to a full audience thrive and perform better, but place that same singer band or comedian into a empty auditorium, they’ll be sh*te, same applies to players, the atmosphere is different  so to will performances,

      I’m not saying this why our season has been catastrophic but it definitely hasn’t helped, having no support, no atmosphere no 12th man to lift the confidence of the players, it’s a element we most definitely have missed. FACT !



                                                                                  Y  N  W  A
      TameImpala
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #17: Feb 09, 2021 09:35:18 am
      Not the point though. Yeah we should've beat them,  but we didn't, so, with fans, would we have?

      That City game would've been SO different if we had fans there.

      The match at the weekend was probably the slowest I've seen us start a "big" home match in years. It wasn't a bad start by any means but I think if Anfield was full on Sunday we'd have come out on the front foot with the players chomping at the bit. It can be a bit of a library for certain fixtures, especially the early KOs against lesser teams but for games like Sunday it rarely let's you down and forces the players to find that extra 5 percent
      chats
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #18: Feb 09, 2021 09:58:03 am
      Imagine Anfield when Salah levelled that game. It would have been roaring and we would have had the momentum - can't say we definitely would have won but we certainly wouldn't have folded like we did. We would have started better as well I'm sure.

      I do think no fans as hurt us more than other teams with the manager we have and the style we play. For teams like City I don't think it matters really given their ground is normally quiet anyway. United are a strange one as well - they've enjoyed no fans away from home but have missed them on their own ground given their results.

      It's a factor for sure across the league but it's probably hurting us more than most. It's not an excuse but it's certainly worth a discussion.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #19: Feb 09, 2021 04:32:49 pm
      Embarrassing thread. Let’s not clutch  for excuses whilst I’m sure it’s a factor it’s the same for the other 19 clubs.

      Well that's pure f**king crap when you look at some of the atmospheres we've had for league games under Klopp. Are you seriously suggesting there is a set of fans similar to us in the league?
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #20: Feb 09, 2021 04:35:01 pm
      Imagine Anfield when Salah levelled that game. It would have been roaring and we would have had the momentum - can't say we definitely would have won but we certainly wouldn't have folded like we did. We would have started better as well I'm sure.

      I do think no fans as hurt us more than other teams with the manager we have and the style we play. For teams like City I don't think it matters really given their ground is normally quiet anyway. United are a strange one as well - they've enjoyed no fans away from home but have missed them on their own ground given their results.

      It's a factor for sure across the league but it's probably hurting us more than most. It's not an excuse but it's certainly worth a discussion.

      Sterling wouldn't have had such an easy game that's for sure. His 1st good performance for City at Anfield comes when there's no fans is no surprise really.
      glennusmc
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #21: Feb 09, 2021 06:33:20 pm
      No doubt about it, the best fans in the world, the best home atmosphere in the world, not sure we erase a 3 goal deficit against Barcelona if it wasn’t for anfield fans that night.
      I also feel that fans affect referee decisions sometimes, definitely does in the USA here is professional sports, the old “home town call”
      Dadorious
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #22: Feb 09, 2021 07:50:52 pm
      Well that's pure f**king crap when you look at some of the atmospheres we've had for league games under Klopp. Are you seriously suggesting there is a set of fans similar to us in the league?
      I’m not suggesting that there is as I said it’s a factor but not going to buy it as significant enough to collect 0 out of possible 9 last 3 games.  Why wasn’t it an issue when we went 5 clear in mid December?

      Even under Klopp some of the early kick offs against the  bottom 6 teams can have a library feel to them.
      srslfc
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #23: Feb 09, 2021 09:23:04 pm
      I think it affects all teams to a degree but definitely think it affects us more than most.

      Not looking for and excuse but our team and manager really feed off the crowd and vice versa.
      UncleBob
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #24: Feb 09, 2021 10:07:48 pm
      If you know the rules of the game, you can see why most decisions are made, even if you don't agree with them. I get the whole emotion argument, but emotion doesn't win points or prizes. Decisions win and lose points, therefore they must be correct. We're playing for the most valuable trophies in the sport. Offside is offside, it's not a little bit offside, it's not the benefit of the doubt, it's not a grey area, it's offside. The accuracy % rate of decisions now is well into the high 90's, so there are just a handful of decisions now that I can't justify.

      We all want fans in the ground, but unfortunately it's not possible, for reasons that go far beyond sport, and it's something we have no control over. We won 8 of our first 9 home games in an empty Anfield, so we have shown that we can win games in the current circumstances. The games have to be played whether the stadium is full or empty, and we can't just throw the towel in when it's the latter. It's the same for everyone, and it can't be used every time we don't win a game.

      I know the rules of the game. Pickfords tackle on VVD was a red. Wasn’t given. And so many off sides are being given when it’s not clear no matter how many times you watch it.
      VAR will get it right, I’m sure, but right now I don’t think it is.

      As for empty stadiums, I get why they are emptied and it is the same for every club. But the whole planning for this season has been poor. Injuries are at a record high. 2, sometimes 3 games a week. Some clubs being forced to play u18s in cup tournaments or playing their leg at a neutral ground. Integrity isn’t there at the minute. It’s just money talking.

      VAR will improve, that I have no doubt, but this season is a farce. It doesn’t feel right (and Iv been saying this when we were top - it’s not knee jerk).

      I mean, what kind of world do we live in where players can squeeze into a coach, squeeze into a changing room, grapple and wrestle for the ball every time there’s a corner..... but can’t celebrate together or shake hands afterwards? That’s basic emotion and without emotion football is like playing football manager on your own.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #25: Feb 09, 2021 10:27:53 pm
      I know the rules of the game. Pickfords tackle on VVD was a red. Wasn’t given. And so many off sides are being given when it’s not clear no matter how many times you watch it.
      VAR will get it right, I’m sure, but right now I don’t think it is.

      As for empty stadiums, I get why they are emptied and it is the same for every club. But the whole planning for this season has been poor. Injuries are at a record high. 2, sometimes 3 games a week. Some clubs being forced to play u18s in cup tournaments or playing their leg at a neutral ground. Integrity isn’t there at the minute. It’s just money talking.

      VAR will improve, that I have no doubt, but this season is a farce. It doesn’t feel right (and Iv been saying this when we were top - it’s not knee jerk).

      I mean, what kind of world do we live in where players can squeeze into a coach, squeeze into a changing room, grapple and wrestle for the ball every time there’s a corner..... but can’t celebrate together or shake hands afterwards? That’s basic emotion and without emotion football is like playing football manager on your own.

      All throughout the regulating of life under CoVide there have been arbitrary rules posted that defy reason. In American football, normally 3-5 captains for each team come out pregame for the coin toss, but under CoVid only one from each team come out.....prior to the two teams mauling each other at point blank range for 90 minutes. Good job in stopping the pandemic with the coin toss!

      But the light is coming...
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #26: Feb 10, 2021 03:00:12 pm
      I think it affects all teams to a degree but definitely think it affects us more than most.

      Not looking for and excuse but our team and manager really feed off the crowd and vice versa.


      It's pretty visible in the pace of our play, no urgency or anything.
      brezipool
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #27: Feb 10, 2021 03:16:10 pm
      Do you think that the fact there are no fans at Anfield, is maybe having an affect on our teams performances and results at home? Take the Brighton game the crowd and atmosphere may have drove them on to get that vital equalising goal,the roared them on to a last minute winner ,it seems the home games to the lower teams is a great leveler with no fans [Thoughts]

      100%
      lfc across the water
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      Re: 12th man
      Reply #28: Feb 11, 2021 11:51:22 pm
      Quote from UncleBob
      I know the rules of the game. Pickfords tackle on VVD was a red. Wasn’t given. And so many off sides are being given when it’s not clear no matter how many times you watch it.
      VAR will get it right, I’m sure, but right now I don’t think it is.

      As for empty stadiums, I get why they are emptied and it is the same for every club. But the whole planning for this season has been poor. Injuries are at a record high. 2, sometimes 3 games a week. Some clubs being forced to play u18s in cup tournaments or playing their leg at a neutral ground. Integrity isn’t there at the minute. It’s just money talking.

      I mean, what kind of world do we live in where players can squeeze into a coach, squeeze into a changing room, grapple and wrestle for the ball every time there’s a corner..... but can’t celebrate together or shake hands afterwards?

      I don't get the emotion about shaking hands. You've just spent 2 hours at war against your opponents, tackles crunching in, elbows flying, rows on the touchline, running arguments on the pitch, passion everywhere. Then the first thing you have to do after the whistle is shake hands. Klopp v Barcelona comes to mind. Its not just a football thing either.

      Playing twice a week is routine at this level. Klopp will never agree with me, but imo playing twice a week when we're winning allows us to build serious momentum and reel off the wins. When we have a week off, I find the players have to readjust and the performance usually isn't great in the next game. I would love a game this midweek to shake the cobwebs off the last game. Instead, we have to sit on it for a week while everyone and his wife writes out long awaited painful obituaries about the team, the manager, and the club.

      We see the offside lines live on tv. They clearly show why a forward is given onside or offside. The evidence is there for everyone to see, it's not a secret in a dark room. Whereas in Europe, we often don't see any lines until well after the decision has been made. However, I strongly recommend people watch the UEFA Man in the Middle ref documentary, currently repeated on BT. It may not change your mind about VAR, but at least every VAR decision featured is explained in detail with the communication broadcast.

      The games have to be played. The nature of this season means if you have to field a reserve team to fulfil a fixture, or have to forfeit a tie or find an alternative venue to play it, that's what you have to do. There simply isn't the time to cater for mass postponements. The current season must be finished on time, whatever it takes.

      Quote from Isaac!
      We've seen dozens of results this season that would normally happen only once in a decade, if that. Deniers need to explain this.

      When Klopp became our manager he put enormous emphasis on improving the fans connection to and belief in the team. He did that because he recognises how imperative the energy and support of the crowd is. We should know this more than anyone FFS. Klopp's teams are about energy, everything they are depends upon it and they can't work without it. Remove the crowd ( including a crowd willing us to lose ) and you take away half the game, you take away the reason to play at all.

      We play the game because it has to be played. It's great to have a crowd, but it's not possible atm. After so many months without them, players should be used to it by now. I would accept it as an excuse if we were the only club affected, but we're not. So there is no alternative but to just get out there, do your job, and try to get the result you want, as you would if there was a crowd. The fans may not be physically present, but they're still watching your every move, kicking every ball, and celebrating every goal. No it's not the same, but that's the way it is. Some teams are going to make the best of that scenario, and the rest have to try again next time.

      On the other hand, away from home it's not always bad. It was actually refreshing to go to the toilet the other week and not have to endure the Hillsborough singers propaganda every couple of minutes. We had no fans to help us comeback against West Ham, but we won. We had fans to help us win against West Brom, but we didn't win. We are where we are atm for numerous practical reasons. Lack of crowds if it is a factor at all, is way down the list.

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