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      First Team Squad 21/22

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      rossyred
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #100: Sep 04, 2021 11:58:53 pm
      Mané's goal involvement by year:

      2020/21: 11 goals + 8 assists = 19
      2019/20: 18 goals + 9 assists = 27 
      2018/19: 22 goals + 2 assists = 24
      2017/18: 10 goals + 7 assists = 17

      It is certainly a concern that his production dropped last season, but if you remove that spell between January and early March when the whole team was a shambles - and instead focus on current form, then his production is absolutely fine and is right in line with his production from his two best years.

      Since March 15th when the team started winning again Mané has 5 goals and 4 assists for 9 goal involvements 13 PL games. In those 13 games he's played 1002 minutes with 9 goal involvements, for a rate of 111.3 minutes per goal involvement.

      In 2019/20 Mane played 2755mins with 27 goal involvements, for a rate of 102 minutes per goal involvement.

      Going back another year to 2018/19 when we won the CL, Mane's goal involvement was 128.5 minutes per goal involvement (3086mins/24).

      To summarize: Minutes per goal involvement:
      Last 13GP: 111.3
      2019/20: 102 (season we hit 98 points)
      2018/19: 128.5 (season we hit 97 points)

      Yes, Mane's production has decreased from the 2019/20 season, but only marginally. There's nothing wrong with his current form. His form right now is better than his form in the season we hit 97 points.

      Now, if you ask me if I think we need to start thinking about replacing Mané as he ages into his 30's, I would agree with that. But the argument we're having here is whether Mane on current form is a significant downgrade from what he produced in our best season, and as the numbers above show there really isn't much of a downgrade - certainly not as much as Salah10 is suggesting.

      Do you have Bobby's stats for the 4 years also and not just the last two as with Mane ?
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #101: Sep 05, 2021 12:39:18 am
      Mané's goal involvement by year:

      2020/21: 11 goals + 8 assists = 19
      2019/20: 18 goals + 9 assists = 27 
      2018/19: 22 goals + 2 assists = 24
      2017/18: 10 goals + 7 assists = 17

      It is certainly a concern that his production dropped last season, but if you remove that spell between January and early March when the whole team was a shambles - and instead focus on current form, then his production is absolutely fine and is right in line with his production from his two best years.

      Since March 15th when the team started winning again Mané has 5 goals and 4 assists for 9 goal involvements 13 PL games. In those 13 games he's played 1002 minutes with 9 goal involvements, for a rate of 111.3 minutes per goal involvement.

      In 2019/20 Mane played 2755mins with 27 goal involvements, for a rate of 102 minutes per goal involvement.

      Going back another year to 2018/19 when we won the CL, Mane's goal involvement was 128.5 minutes per goal involvement (3086mins/24).

      To summarize: Minutes per goal involvement:
      Last 13GP: 111.3
      2019/20: 102 (season we hit 98 points)
      2018/19: 128.5 (season we hit 97 points)

      Yes, Mane's production has decreased from the 2019/20 season, but only marginally. There's nothing wrong with his current form. His form right now is better than his form in the season we hit 97 points.

      Now, if you ask me if I think we need to start thinking about replacing Mané as he ages into his 30's, I would agree with that. But the argument we're having here is whether Mane on current form is a significant downgrade from what he produced in our best season, and as the numbers above show there really isn't much of a downgrade - certainly not as much as Salah10 is suggesting.




      Unfortunately you can’t pick and choose what parts of the season are relevant for stat comparisons to previous years. Yes Jan-March was horrific but ultimately, that was a time we needed Mane to step up and unfortunately he didn’t. Salah was in the team too and his goal tally increased on the previous season despite that wretched spell for us.

      It’s pointless analysing stats for the last 2 months of the season compared with the entirety of previous seasons just because that’s when we started winning again and when Mane decided to show up again. I really can’t see the point in doing that to be honest with you mate, the season up to that point doesn’t suddenly vanish and become irrelevant because we were crap for that timeframe.

      If you are analysing stats for the last 13 games of last season then you have to be consistent and do the same to the previous years, not start comparing that to 30+ games instead because it’s a highly inaccurate and heavily skewed comparison.

      Mane wasn’t good enough last season, simple as that. His return was significantly lower and his overall performances were well below par too.
      Richard88
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #102: Sep 05, 2021 12:45:10 am
      Do you have Bobby's stats for the 4 years also and not just the last two as with Mane ?


      Last 8GP: 4 goals + 2 assists = 6 involvements in 442 mins for 73.7 mins per goal involvement.
      2020/21: 9 goals + 7 assists = 16 involvements in 2852 mins for 178.3 mins per goal involvement.
      2019/20: 9 goals + 8 assists = 17 involvements in 3004 mins for 176.7 mins per goal involvement.
      2018/19: 12 goals + 7 assists = 19 involvements in 2620 mins for 137.9 mins per goal involvement.
      2017/18: 15 goals + 7 assists = 22 involvements in 2778 mins for 126.3 mins per goal involvement.
      2016/17: 11 goals + 10 assists = 21 involvements in 3068 mins for 146.1 mins per goal involvement.
      2015/16: 10 goals + 8 assists = 18 involvements in 1983 mins for 110.2 mins per goal involvement.

      Firmino in his last 8 games is in the form of his life  xxxxx:action-smiley-065:

      That said, 8 games is a very small sample size admittedly, and it's also across two seasons so it's not super reliable.

      It is absolutely concerning that his production levels have dropped from his first four years under Klopp where he was consistently having a goal involvement every 110-140 minutes, as compared to the last two years when he's had a goal involvement roughly every 177 minutes.

      It's pretty clear looking at these numbers why he's the one who's getting dropped more frequently for Jota. However, as I mentioned in an earlier post, even though Firmino has taken a step back in terms of production, upgrading our 4th striker from Origi to Jota more than offsets the drop in production by Firmino (and Mané).

      For the record Jota produced 9 goals in 1112 mins last year for a goal involvement every 123.6 minutes.

      Effectively Jota has replaced Firmino as the 3rd forward option (i.e. Jota's goal involvement every 123.6mins has replaced what Firmino was producing), and Firmino has replaced Origi as the 4th choice forward - an obvious upgrade.

      It's worth noting that this team won the league with 98 points even when Firmino's goal involvement rose to ~177mins/involvement, so it's not as if the team can't be successful even if he continues playing as he has done the last 2 years.

      Anyways, to go back to the point of this conversation, this team is absolutely better overall (at least on paper) than the 2019/20 team, as the additions of Thiago, Jota, Konate, etc and improvements from Jones, Elliott, etc more than offset the losses of Wijnaldum or any perceived loss of form by Firmino or Mane.

      CT_LFC
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #103: Sep 05, 2021 12:47:44 am
      Unfortunately you can’t pick and choose what parts of the season are relevant for stat comparisons to previous years. Yes Jan-March was horrific but ultimately, that was a time we needed Mane to step up and unfortunately he didn’t. Salah was in the team too and his goal tally increased on the previous season despite that wretched spell for us.


      Don’t conveniently leave out that the reason Salah’s total goals increased from previous season is because he started taking all the penalty kicks, of which he had 6. His scoring from open play was also down from the previous year.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #104: Sep 05, 2021 12:51:31 am
      Don’t conveniently leave out that the reason Salah’s total goals increased from previous season is because he started taking all the penalty kicks, of which he had 6. His scoring from open play was also down from the previous year.

      So a guy leaves out over half a season on his comparison and you are jumping on my post about penalties… Makes sense…

      I’m not leaving anything out. Fact is his goal tally was up, regardless of whether there were more penalties or not. If you are going to try and start twisting things like that then do we just pretend the penalty goals didn’t happen? Take away them penalty goals and forget they happened? Alter the scoreline of them games to have a result that doesn’t include penalty goals? Of course not.

      A penalty isn’t a guaranteed goal you know, there’s still plenty to do to make sure it results in a goal. In fact, the last penalty Mane took for us, he missed.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #105: Sep 05, 2021 12:55:52 am
      I’m not leaving anything out. Fact is his goal tally was up, regardless of whether there were more penalties or not. If you are going to try and start twisting things like that then do we just pretend the penalty goals didn’t happen? Take away them penalty goals and forget they happened?

      A penalty isn’t a guaranteed goal you know, there’s still plenty to do to make sure it results in a goal.

      If you’re going to compare one year vs another then do it on a like-for-like basis. Highlighting his goals went up vs prior season without acknowledging such a big factor is misleading. His on field play suffered just like everyone’s did.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #106: Sep 05, 2021 12:58:42 am
      If you’re going to compare one year vs another then do it on a like-for-like basis. Highlighting his goals went up vs prior season without acknowledging such a big factor is misleading. His on field play suffered just like everyone’s did.

      I’m not the one doing the comparisons though am I?!
      So again, why are you jumping on my post, saying to do a comparison fairly, taking into account all factors but yet completely ignoring the fact someone else missed out over half a season?

      Again, I didn’t say his form on the pitch didn’t suffer did I?! I said his goal tally was up…which it was. If you want to take away the goals he scored from the spot then crack on, I don’t care, it doesn’t change the fact that his goal tally increased in the previous year.

      Richard88
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #107: Sep 05, 2021 12:59:26 am
      Unfortunately you can’t pick and choose what parts of the season are relevant for stat comparisons to previous years. Yes Jan-March was horrific but ultimately, that was a time we needed Mane to step up and unfortunately he didn’t. Salah was in the team too and his goal tally increased on the previous season despite that wretched spell for us.

      It’s pointless analysing stats for the last 2 months of the season compared with the entirety of previous seasons just because that’s when we started winning again and when Mane decided to show up again. I really can’t see the point in doing that to be honest with you mate, the season up to that point doesn’t suddenly vanish and become irrelevant because we were crap for that timeframe.

      If you are analysing stats for the last 13 games of last season then you have to be consistent and do the same to the previous years, not start comparing that to 30+ games instead because it’s a highly inaccurate and heavily skewed comparison.

      Mane wasn’t good enough last season, simple as that. His return was significantly lower and his overall performances were well below par too.
      I used the last 10-13 games as a sample since Salah10 was emphasizing "current form", and I think most would agree that a 10-13 game sample size is enough to be considered "current form".

      What Mane did or didn't do 9 months ago in January-February is also pretty irrelevant in a sport where "what have you done for me lately" matters.

      That said, you're right that it's a bit disingenuous to just discard a period of time last season, however I do think there are mitigating circumstances for Mane in that it the team weren't playing AT ALL like they wanted to be playing. A HUGE part of that is the fact that Fabinho wasn't playing in DM, and unsurprisingly results started turning just a week after Fabinho moved back to DM (see his list of games here: https://www.transfermarkt.com/fabinho/leistungsdaten/spieler/225693/plus/0?saison=2020).

      Without a proper holding midfielder (Henderson was also playing CB with Fabinho) the teams form suffered massively, and as a result our forwards had a harder time scoring or generating chances. Thiago even mentioned at the end of the season that the team hadn't been able to play like they wanted.

      Whatever the case I think we can both agree that the club need to start looking at replacing Mane in the next 1-2 years, because his aging is eventually going to be inevitable. I just don't think that his dropoff THIS SEASON is dramatic enough to claim that it's going to drag the entire team down and make it worse than it was in 2019/20 in spite of adding Jota/Thiago/etc. This team is objectively better (on paper) than the one that won the league, but of course only time will tell.
      Richard88
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #108: Sep 05, 2021 01:02:08 am
      So a guy leaves out over half a season on his comparison and you are jumping on my post about penalties… Makes sense…

      I’m not leaving anything out. Fact is his goal tally was up, regardless of whether there were more penalties or not. If you are going to try and start twisting things like that then do we just pretend the penalty goals didn’t happen? Take away them penalty goals and forget they happened? Alter the scoreline of them games to have a result that doesn’t include penalty goals? Of course not.

      A penalty isn’t a guaranteed goal you know, there’s still plenty to do to make sure it results in a goal. In fact, the last penalty Mane took for us, he missed.
      Non-penalty goals are a much better predictor of future goal output than just counting goal totals. Do you disagree with that statement?
      CT_LFC
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #109: Sep 05, 2021 01:02:09 am
      I’m not the one doing the comparisons though am I?!
      So again, why are you jumping on my post, saying to do a comparison fairly, taking into account all factors but yet completely ignoring the fact someone else missed out over half a season?

      Again, I didn’t say his form on the pitch didn’t suffer did I?! I said his goal tally was up…which it was.

      Um, when you say “Salah was on the team too and his goal tally increased on his previous season” you are comparing the two.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #110: Sep 05, 2021 01:05:01 am
      Um, when you say “Salah was on the team too and his goal tally increased on his previous season” you are comparing the two.

      How is it a comparison? It’s literally stating a fact that his goal tally increased. Why are you not able to comprehend this?

      I’m struggling to see why you have this apparent issue and a lack of understanding. It’s not difficult, yet you are still unable to say why you are jumping on my post but not the post missing half a season.
      Richard88
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #111: Sep 05, 2021 01:07:19 am
      I’m not the one doing the comparisons though am I?!
      So again, why are you jumping on my post, saying to do a comparison fairly, taking into account all factors but yet completely ignoring the fact someone else missed out over half a season?

      Again, I didn’t say his form on the pitch didn’t suffer did I?! I said his goal tally was up…which it was. If you want to take away the goals he scored from the spot then crack on, I don’t care, it doesn’t change the fact that his goal tally increased in the previous year.
      I didn't just "miss out" half a season. I simply took the last 10 games which is a good indicator of form regardless of whether it was when the winning run started or not. It's not like I cherry picked by collating stats from October-December PLUS March-now. No, I simply took the last handful of games, which is a pretty decent indicator of the likelihood of Mane scoring again in the next game.

      If I had taken his numbers from October-December and added them to March-now while conveniently omitting Jan-Feb then yes you would have a point. But that's not what I did.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #112: Sep 05, 2021 01:13:50 am
      Non-penalty goals are a much better predictor of future goal output than just counting goal totals. Do you disagree with that statement?

      Don’t you start too unless you are trying to form some sort of dumb and dumber double act. I’m not disagreeing with anything. It’s a simple fact that his goal tally increased regardless of the fact there are more penalties.
      Jesus Christ.


      I didn't just "miss out" half a season. I simply took the last 10 games which is a good indicator of form regardless of whether it was when the winning run started or not. It's not like I cherry picked by collating stats from October-December PLUS March-now. No, I simply took the last handful of games, which is a pretty decent indicator of the likelihood of Mane scoring again in the next game.

      If I had taken his numbers from October-December and added them to March-now while conveniently omitting Jan-Feb then yes you would have a point. But that's not what I did.

      You’ve already explained yourself once, why are you doing it again? I got it on the first explanation of your post.
      Richard88
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #113: Sep 05, 2021 01:17:14 am
      Don’t you start too unless you are trying to form some sort of dumb and dumber double act. I’m not disagreeing with anything. It’s a simple fact that his goal tally increased regardless of the fact there are more penalties.
      Jesus Christ.


      You’ve already explained yourself once, why are you doing it again? I got it on the first explanation of your post.
      Well this conversation has been an absolute pleasure. Good night  xxxxx:action-smiley-065:
      brezipool
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #114: Sep 05, 2021 10:18:55 am
      Salah and mane bad form last year as some say was down to the fekin team being bad due to the injuries to the Centre backs, then best Midfielders playing at the back, then the team in general playing much deeper so making it even harder for the forwards as they ended up deeper, it all snowballed rom there into just sh1te fitbaw. It happens sometimes to the best of them.

      the last 10 games of the season was much better when we had a settled back 4 and the MF was actually pushing up to support the forwards.

      So I have zero worries about the forwards this season, when we have our strongest defence and MF playing.

      Even if we nick loads of games 1 nil, ill take it.

      points make prizes. ;D
      Robby The Z
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #115: Sep 05, 2021 12:57:24 pm

      Last 8GP: 4 goals + 2 assists = 6 involvements in 442 mins for 73.7 mins per goal involvement.
      2020/21: 9 goals + 7 assists = 16 involvements in 2852 mins for 178.3 mins per goal involvement.
      2019/20: 9 goals + 8 assists = 17 involvements in 3004 mins for 176.7 mins per goal involvement.
      2018/19: 12 goals + 7 assists = 19 involvements in 2620 mins for 137.9 mins per goal involvement.
      2017/18: 15 goals + 7 assists = 22 involvements in 2778 mins for 126.3 mins per goal involvement.
      2016/17: 11 goals + 10 assists = 21 involvements in 3068 mins for 146.1 mins per goal involvement.
      2015/16: 10 goals + 8 assists = 18 involvements in 1983 mins for 110.2 mins per goal involvement.

      Firmino in his last 8 games is in the form of his life  xxxxx:action-smiley-065:

      That said, 8 games is a very small sample size admittedly, and it's also across two seasons so it's not super reliable.

      It is absolutely concerning that his production levels have dropped from his first four years under Klopp where he was consistently having a goal involvement every 110-140 minutes, as compared to the last two years when he's had a goal involvement roughly every 177 minutes.

      It's pretty clear looking at these numbers why he's the one who's getting dropped more frequently for Jota. However, as I mentioned in an earlier post, even though Firmino has taken a step back in terms of production, upgrading our 4th striker from Origi to Jota more than offsets the drop in production by Firmino (and Mané).

      For the record Jota produced 9 goals in 1112 mins last year for a goal involvement every 123.6 minutes.

      Effectively Jota has replaced Firmino as the 3rd forward option (i.e. Jota's goal involvement every 123.6mins has replaced what Firmino was producing), and Firmino has replaced Origi as the 4th choice forward - an obvious upgrade.

      It's worth noting that this team won the league with 98 points even when Firmino's goal involvement rose to ~177mins/involvement, so it's not as if the team can't be successful even if he continues playing as he has done the last 2 years.

      Anyways, to go back to the point of this conversation, this team is absolutely better overall (at least on paper) than the 2019/20 team, as the additions of Thiago, Jota, Konate, etc and improvements from Jones, Elliott, etc more than offset the losses of Wijnaldum or any perceived loss of form by Firmino or Mane.

      A lot of good data here - thanks for putting it together.

      I wonder if the analytics types have a more thorough measurement of "goal involvement" than just goals and assists. Bobby of course is often involved in winning possession and transitioning to attack. Mane's running off the ball can make a big difference in stretching the defence and creating room fpr the others. Salah and Jota will have non-stat contributions to goals as well.

      So much of our mid-season malaise last year was down to players being injured and/or out of position. That's bound to affect everyone, especially with such a.collective approach to defending, transition and attack we have. We can point fingers at individuals, but typically it's the result of issues affecting the team overall
      Rockafella88
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #116: Sep 05, 2021 05:11:17 pm
      Curtis Jones out of champ league squad

      What's happening there??
      AlwaysTheKop
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #117: Sep 05, 2021 05:20:30 pm
      Curtis Jones out of champ league squad

      What's happening there??

      I think him and Neco only need to be listed on the 'B' list which can be amended at any time, because of their age and being home grown, they can still take part as long as they are on the B list.
      HUYTON RED
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #118: Sep 05, 2021 06:38:17 pm
      Curtis Jones out of champ league squad

      What's happening there??

      Qualifies as U21 and doesn't need to be registered, same as Neco.
      lfc across the water
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #119: Sep 07, 2021 03:59:57 pm
      Quote from 7-King Kenny-7
      A penalty isn’t a guaranteed goal you know, there’s still plenty to do to make sure it results in a goal.

      We've scored the last 20 penalties, Salah his last 14. That's not even counting Milner's record. It's not a guaranteed goal, but it's very very likely.

      Quote from Richard88
      I didn't think including West Ham/Leicester/Spurs warranted the effort as I don't envisage that they'll be in the title race.

      23 players sounds like a lot, but only one of those players was an integral part of the first team (Wijnaldum)

      I don't see they'll be in the title race either, but I dont think Chelsea or the mancs will either. I just think that you have to win 30 games to win this league, and you won't do that with a risk averse man in charge. Conte was the last one to do it and that was 5 seasons ago. You just have to set out to win games, not win one here and nick a point there. It should get you 70 points, 80 maybe. But the 90-95 you need? I can't see it.

      An entire squad load of players have left the club, a full team has gone out on loan. Most are first team players who may not play every week, but can do a job when called upon. We used to let 10-15 go in summer, now it's 20+. From a numbers perspective, it's left us very light in a number of areas.

      Qualifying for the European Cup is supposed to help bring players in, not clear them off. With our status at home and abroad, the competitions we play for, the reach we have at home and abroad, and the revenue it all brings in, it's embarrassing that our season essentially rests on the fitness of VVD. It's almost like nothing has been learned from last year's experience.
      skamp
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #120: Sep 08, 2021 12:34:15 pm
      Brazil to stop us playing Ali, Fab & Bobby (if fit?) this weekend??!!!!

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58486811
      chats
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #121: Sep 08, 2021 12:36:43 pm
      Brazil to stop us playing Ali, Fab & Bobby (if fit?) this weekend??!!!!

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58486811

      What a shambles.

      If they went then they would have had quarantine on the way back in the UK for 10 days as far as I can tell. Means whatever the PL clubs decided to do they would have lost their players for at least a game or two which makes no sense and isn't exactly fair.

      It's riduclous that international football is even going on with all the quarantine rules anyway to be honest.
      « Last Edit: Sep 08, 2021 12:42:55 pm by chats »
      rossyred
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #122: Sep 08, 2021 12:43:04 pm
      Brazil to stop us playing Ali, Fab & Bobby (if fit?) this weekend??!!!!

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58486811

      Except for Richarlison  he seems to be ok due to good relations  :lmao:
      srslfc
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #123: Sep 08, 2021 12:48:25 pm
      Except for Richarlison  he seems to be ok due to good relations  :lmao:

      Farce.

      If Fifa are trying to ban the players they all should be banned. Good relationship or not.

      Leeds and us should just ignore it and see what they do
      rossyred
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #124: Sep 08, 2021 01:02:38 pm
      Farce.

      If Fifa are trying to ban the players they all should be banned. Good relationship or not.

      Leeds and us should just ignore it and see what they do

      They can drop us the points apparently with  3-0 forfeit so we should both do it

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