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      First Team Squad 21/22

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      Richard88
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #75: Sep 04, 2021 12:57:53 am
      Brave man to go down that line. ;D
      I think you can see that I only made that comment here to illustrate a point, somewhat sarcastically. The other poster mentioned that 23 players have left with only 1 being signed, which is obviously bending the truth to exaggerate his point and make it seem that the squad has been brought down to bear bones by a stingy ownership group. I simply wanted to point out - using the same (flawed) logic as the poster I was responding to, that by the standard of including youth loans and what not it would only be fair to include players coming back from loans as well as younger signings like Gordon given that there are also plenty of youth players among the 23 he mentioned.

      A more fair assessment of the squad is to consider changes that impact the first team, in which case the only significant moves that impact the first team have been to replace Wijnaldum and Shaqiri with Konate and Elliott. Konate might not be a like-for-like replacement for Wijnaldum, but his addition ensures that Fabinho will play more in midfield to effectively take a large chunk of the minutes in midfield that Wijnaldum played last season.
      billythered
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #76: Sep 04, 2021 04:36:06 am
      I keep saying this….We are in fact stronger than when we won the league and the UCL, we have added Jota, Thiago, Konate, Tsimikas, Harvey, but we’re minus Gini, we all know last season was a disaster, again, look how many we missed last season who are available this time around, long term absentees being Virgil, Joel, Joe, Naby Ox, Thiago was out for 5 months, Henderson similarly, Fabinho,  Jota out for 4, my maths maybe somewhat ropey but you get my gist,

      In case you haven’t noticed already, Jürgen likes to work with a tight group, he doesn’t over complicate things by have too many faces, this season he has a squad of 24, for him that is plenty, so long as injuries are kept to a minimum, that wasn’t the case last season obviously, but yet, we still finished third,

      It’s early days yet of course and most teams in the league have yet to reach normal levels, that takes around 5/6 games in, we have dropped two points to one of our rivals, same applies to them, but we’re still in third gear and I think we will be at our optimum in and around Xmas and beyond,  I was going to say ‘IF’ but when we are within the top two or three by the turn of the year, I fancy us to go all the way,

      CL status will of course play it’s part, or indeed Europa, but I firmly believe we are in a better shape than in  19/20, with more experience and knowing how to get through the toughest games, especially when we aren’t playing well, yes others have bolstered their squad in particular Chavs, City have spunked £100m on Jack so no one else gets him, Manure have spent even more millions trying to catch up, and have even brought back a has been, who they still think is 18, can’t wait til he gets clattered by some thug from Burnley, or maybe send a email to Pickford, there you go son, fill yer boots,

      Make no mistake we will be right up there, we’re hungrier, we want it more, Believe!!




                                                                                 Y  N  W  A
      Dadorious
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #77: Sep 04, 2021 10:39:19 am
      I think we’re still at least one good forward away from being complete. This should have been addressed especially when players are still being sidelined with Covid and forced to quarantine. It would be so Liverpool for something like that to happen in a Christmas pile up and we lost 1 or 2 of the front 3.

      Midfield could also be light on given Naby and Ox’s injury record for all of Jones and Elliots progress you don’t win major titles when you become too reliant on kids.
      Robby The Z
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #78: Sep 04, 2021 02:31:39 pm
      Does Loris Karius still take part in first team training?

      Looks like we weren't able to even give him away. Any idea for how long he is under contract?
      Salah10
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #79: Sep 04, 2021 02:42:22 pm
      I think we’re still at least one good forward away from being complete. This should have been addressed especially when players are still being sidelined with Covid and forced to quarantine. It would be so Liverpool for something like that to happen in a Christmas pile up and we lost 1 or 2 of the front 3.

      Midfield could also be light on given Naby and Ox’s injury record for all of Jones and Elliots progress you don’t win major titles when you become too reliant on kids.

      We went in to the season with Jota our only credible bench forward. Minamino was surplus to requirements last year and sent on loan in Jan. He couldn't get games at Southampton. He's back and all of a sudden he's a decent option to have. Pull the other one.

      Origi, I need no words.

      Harvey Elliot has no experience, although bags of potential but you don't launch a league attempt on only bags of potential.

      No Bobby and Minamino's now injured. Do we now more Harvey, who has been performing excellent in a cm role, out of that position to compensate for the loss of backup for strikers? Does that now make our middle weaker since he's a starter at cm? Of course it does. If we keep him starting then who plays backup to the front three?

      Factor in Mane's extreme loss of form. Problem is there's no one to replace him with so it'll be weekly showings until he either finds form, I personally think he's done at the top level and he's my fav player, or he continues with his average performances. League titles are not won with your stars having average performances.

      Will the Ox have to play backup? Square pegs for round holes again.

      How do we solve this forward crisis we've found ourselves in so early in to the campaign?
      tezmac
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #80: Sep 04, 2021 03:30:51 pm
      Have said it many times WERE OWNED BY MINGES and we will pay for it on the field
      AlwaysTheKop
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #81: Sep 04, 2021 05:12:23 pm
      I think we should try a new formation, we already low on attackers now so gives us a reason and other teams wouldn’t expect it…

                      Alisson
              Matip - Dijk - Konate
      Trent - Hendo - Fabinho - Robbo
                       Elliott
                 Salah  -  Jota 

      Give Trent and Robbo more freedom and Elliott in a more pure central attacking role. Mane in the bench, let him come in against a tiring team and cause havoc and gain some needed confidence or form or whatever he’s missing right now.
      -LFC-
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #82: Sep 04, 2021 05:46:48 pm
      I think on paper we are a stronger proposition than when we won the league and we will be within 5 points of the eventual winner if we don't win it ourselves. The others have probably made up ground by a greater degree than we have strengthened, particularly when you factor in the questions around the form of Mané and Firmino (they are far from finished IMO but whether they can fire on all cylinders for so long like before is less clear), so it would have been handy if we had swapped Origi out for a player more able to make an impact.
      Salah10
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #83: Sep 04, 2021 06:22:19 pm
      What players make you think we're stronger than the year we won it?
      David Wright
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #84: Sep 04, 2021 08:29:19 pm
      It seems that I am not on my own in thinking, we require an extra back up striker. The problem maybe is who and will our owners release the funds for such a player !
      srslfc
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #85: Sep 04, 2021 10:06:53 pm
      What players make you think we're stronger than the year we won it?

      Thiago, Jota, Konate, Tsimikas.

      Possibly Elliott but still very young.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #86: Sep 04, 2021 10:24:17 pm
      Thiago, Jota, Konate, Tsimikas.

      Possibly Elliott but still very young.

      Gini replaced by Thiago
      Brewster replaced by Jota
      Lovren replaced by Konate
      Moreno replaced by Tsimikas
      Shaqiri replaced by Elliot

      Looks like the squad has got stronger
      srslfc
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #87: Sep 04, 2021 10:27:47 pm
      Gini replaced by Thiago
      Brewster replaced by Jota
      Lovren replaced by Konate
      Moreno replaced by Tsimikas
      Shaqiri replaced by Elliot

      Looks like the squad has got stronger

      It's actually beyond me how anyone could argue it's weaker.

      Gini was a vital part of our success but you could hardly argue Thiago is a downgrade on him.
      Salah10
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #88: Sep 04, 2021 10:30:18 pm
      Thiago, Jota, Konate, Tsimikas.

      Possibly Elliott but still very young.

      Thiago replaced Gini. Is he an upgrade? The verdict is still out but I would personally say no.

      Jota was definitely an upgrade on Brewster but you also need to factor in Mane and Bobby's loss of form. Was Jota really an upgrade when Mane has been so poor?

      We've seen nothing of Konate to know if he's an upgrade or not.

      Moreno replaced by Tsimiskas agreed.

      Shaq replaced by Elliot disagree. Elliot is playing cm. We have no idea if he'll be good enough at RW.

      I don't think we're stronger. I think when people compare squads they're not taking Mane and Bobby's bad form in to account.

      srslfc
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #89: Sep 04, 2021 10:34:20 pm
      Thiago replaced Gini. Is he an upgrade? The verdict is still out but I would personally say no.

      Jota was definitely an upgrade on Brewster but you also need to factor in Mane and Bobby's loss of form. Was Jota really an upgrade when Mane has been so poor?

      We've seen nothing of Konate to know if he's an upgrade or not.

      Moreno replaced by Tsimiskas agreed.

      Shaq replaced by Elliot disagree. Elliot is playing cm. We have no idea if he'll be good enough at RW.

      I don't think we're stronger. I think when people compare squads they're not taking Mane and Bobby's bad form in to account.



      Shaqiri played as many games where Elliott is playing as he did at RW.

      Thiago is widely regarded as one of the World's best midfielders. As much as I love Gini that is also an upgrade.

      Richard88
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #90: Sep 04, 2021 10:38:35 pm
      What players make you think we're stronger than the year we won it?
      Below is a like-for-like comparison of our 2019/20 squad compared to the current squad. The only changes are highlighted in bold, with Games Played (GP) in the Premier League included where relevant.

      2019/20  ---- 2021/22

      Alisson ------ Alisson
      Adrian ------- Adrian
      Kelleher ----- Kelleher
      Lonergan (0GP) - Karius

      Van Dijk ---- Van Dijk
      Matip -------- Matip
      Gomez ------ Gomez
      Lovren (10GP) ------- Konate

      Trent --------- Trent
      Clyne (0 GP) -- n/a
      Neco (6GP) ----------- Neco

      Robertson ----- Robertson
      No backup LB -- Tsimikas

      Fabinho -------- Fabinho
      Henderson ----- Henderson
      Wijnaldum ----- Thiago
      Keita ----------- Keita
      Ox -------------- Ox
      Milner ---------- Milner
      Jones (6 GP) --- Jones

      Salah -------------- Salah
      Mane -------------- Mane
      Firmino ------------ Firmino

      Shaqiri (7GP) ----- Jota
      Lallana (15GP) - Elliott

      Origi (28 GP) ----- Origi
      Minamino (10GP) - Minamino
      Brewster (0 GP) --- Gordon


      Lonergan to Karius is probably an upgrade but isn't significant whatsoever.

      Lovren to Konate is more or less a sideways move or a slight upgrade. Lovren only started 9 PL games that year.

      Clyne left but was out with a back injury and wasn't a factor at all.

      Neco is 2 years older and more of a legit first team option now, so our backup RB is an upgrade.

      Tsimikas is a huge upgrade over not having a proper backup LB (or shoe-horning Milner or 18 year old Neco at LB).

      Wijnaldum to Thiago is arguably an upgrade, but Wijnaldum's reliability and availability was important, so let's say that this is a sideways move. Bear in mind that Thiago was a vital part of Bayern's CL-winning team.

      Jones is 2 years older and is now a legitimate first team option. Upgrade.

      In attack we've basically replaced Lallana (only 15GP / 3 starts) and Shaqiri (only 7GP/2 starts) - a combined 22 GP and 5 starts - with Jota and Elliott. Jota will also take over many of the 28GP/7 starts that Origi had in 2019/20. Overall that's an upgrade given Jota's quality.

      Note that Lallana was on his last legs and often injured, only featuring 15 times with only 3 starts. Elliott already has 2 starts this season.

      All-in-all, purely in terms of in's and out's the first team is better, at least on paper. Obviously fatigue and aging from our 30+ players is an important factor to consider, but I would argue that their aging is more than offset by the addition of Jota to take most of Origi's minutes, along with maturing of our younger players like Jones, Elliott, Gomez, Kelleher, Trent, etc.

      Now, I'm not saying that the squad couldn't have been improved further, such as by upgrading on Origi, but overall the squad does look stronger than it was in 2019/20.

      You might argue that Liverpool have more competition this season than in 2019/20 and thus needed more to compete, and although that might be true in terms of there being multiple contenders this time around, it's important to bear in mind that the 2019/20 team were up against a Man City team that had just posted 100 and 98 points in the two seasons prior. Point being that our current LFC team is stronger than the 2019/20 team in a direct like-for-like comparison, and should have just as good a chance of competing at the top that the 2019/20 team did.
      Salah10
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #91: Sep 04, 2021 10:41:17 pm
      Shaqiri played as many games where Elliott is playing as he did at RW.

      Thiago is widely regarded as one of the World's best midfielders. As much as I love Gini that is also an upgrade.

      I love the Bayern Thiago. I don't think he's the same in this league. Last year it got to a point where he got dropped. Yes, last year was a freak year so the verdict will be out this year. With that said, as of right now the Liverpool Thiago isn't an upgrade.

      Let's say for arguments sake Elliott is an upgrade.

      Konate we have no idea and Jota definitely isn't when we take Mane and Bobby's dreadful form.

      So are we really stronger? I have to say no. If anything we're weaker. Mane and Bobbys decline plays a major part in us being weaker. Imo this team can't win the league if their form continues the way it has been for over a year.
      Salah10
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #92: Sep 04, 2021 10:45:06 pm
      Below is a like-for-like comparison of our 2019/20 squad compared to the current squad. The only changes are highlighted in bold, with Games Played (GP) in the Premier League included where relevant.

      2019/20  ---- 2021/22

      Alisson ------ Alisson
      Adrian ------- Adrian
      Kelleher ----- Kelleher
      Lonergan (0GP) - Karius

      Van Dijk ---- Van Dijk
      Matip -------- Matip
      Gomez ------ Gomez
      Lovren (10GP) ------- Konate

      Trent --------- Trent
      Clyne (0 GP) -- n/a
      Neco (6GP) ----------- Neco

      Robertson ----- Robertson
      No backup LB -- Tsimikas

      Fabinho -------- Fabinho
      Henderson ----- Henderson
      Wijnaldum ----- Thiago
      Keita ----------- Keita
      Ox -------------- Ox
      Milner ---------- Milner
      Jones (6 GP) --- Jones

      Salah -------------- Salah
      Mane -------------- Mane
      Firmino ------------ Firmino

      Shaqiri (7GP) ----- Jota
      Lallana (15GP) - Elliott

      Origi (28 GP) ----- Origi
      Minamino (10GP) - Minamino
      Brewster (0 GP) --- Gordon


      Lonergan to Karius is probably an upgrade but isn't significant whatsoever.

      Lovren to Konate is more or less a sideways move or a slight upgrade. Lovren only started 9 PL games that year.

      Clyne left but was out with a back injury and wasn't a factor at all.

      Neco is 2 years older and more of a legit first team option now, so our backup RB is an upgrade.

      Tsimikas is a huge upgrade over not having a proper backup LB (or shoe-horning Milner or 18 year old Neco at LB).

      Wijnaldum to Thiago is arguably an upgrade, but Wijnaldum's reliability and availability was important, so let's say that this is a sideways move. Bear in mind that Thiago was a vital part of Bayern's CL-winning team.

      Jones is 2 years older and is now a legitimate first team option. Upgrade.

      In attack we've basically replaced Lallana (only 15GP / 3 starts) and Shaqiri (only 7GP/2 starts) - a combined 22 GP and 5 starts - with Jota and Elliott. Jota will also take over many of the 28GP/7 starts that Origi had in 2019/20. Overall that's an upgrade given Jota's quality.

      Note that Lallana was on his last legs and often injured, only featuring 15 times with only 3 starts. Elliott already has 2 starts this season.

      All-in-all, purely in terms of in's and out's the first team is better, at least on paper. Obviously fatigue and aging from our 30+ players is an important factor to consider, but I would argue that their aging is more than offset by the addition of Jota to take most of Origi's minutes, along with maturing of our younger players like Jones, Elliott, Gomez, Kelleher, Trent, etc.

      Now, I'm not saying that the squad couldn't have been improved further, such as by upgrading on Origi, but overall the squad does look stronger than it was in 2019/20.

      You might argue that Liverpool have more competition this season than in 2019/20 and thus needed more to compete, and although that might be true in terms of there being multiple contenders this time around, it's important to bear in mind that the 2019/20 team were up against a Man City team that had just posted 100 and 98 points in the two seasons prior. Point being that our current LFC team is stronger than the 2019/20 team in a direct like-for-like comparison, and should have just as good a chance of competing at the top that the 2019/20 team did.

      Good and healthy post. What it hasn't taken in to account is form. Bobbys form has been bad for a year and a half but Mane's is dreadful. Once we take this in to account all of a sudden we've not strengthened
      « Last Edit: Sep 04, 2021 10:52:40 pm by Salah10 »
      srslfc
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #93: Sep 04, 2021 10:46:49 pm
      I love the Bayern Thiago. I don't think he's the same in this league. Last year it got to a point where he got dropped. Yes, last year was a freak year so the verdict will be out this year. With that said, as of right now the Liverpool Thiago isn't an upgrade.

      Let's say for arguments sake Elliott is an upgrade.

      Konate we have no idea and Jota definitely isn't when we take Mane and Bobby's dreadful form.

      So are we really stronger? I have to say no. If anything we're weaker. Mane and Bobbys decline plays a major part in us being weaker. Imo this team can't win the league if their form continues the way it has been for over a year.

      What league form is that?

      The one where we are unbeaten in the last 13 league games, winning 10 of them?

      That form?
      Salah10
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #94: Sep 04, 2021 10:52:21 pm
      What league form is that?

      The one where we are unbeaten in the last 13 league games, winning 10 of them?

      That form?

      There's a long long way to go. I've seen enough football in my life to know what a league title requires. I won't argue. I hope to god I'm wrong and we win the league. If not then it's painful being right. Literally can't win. You can plod along thinking Mane and Bobbys form is fine or they'll play their way back in to form, I personally believe they won't and their elite time is done and should have been replaced this year.

      I see you ignored my other points but whatever I cba
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #95: Sep 04, 2021 10:55:29 pm
      I love the Bayern Thiago. I don't think he's the same in this league. Last year it got to a point where he got dropped. Yes, last year was a freak year so the verdict will be out this year. With that said, as of right now the Liverpool Thiago isn't an upgrade.

      Let's say for arguments sake Elliott is an upgrade.

      Konate we have no idea and Jota definitely isn't when we take Mane and Bobby's dreadful form.

      So are we really stronger? I have to say no. If anything we're weaker. Mane and Bobbys decline plays a major part in us being weaker. Imo this team can't win the league if their form continues the way it has been for over a year.


      Form is temporary- class is permanent


      Bobby finished the season well scoring some crucial goals


      Mane has started the season well


      When you compare squads you compare ability not relative form 🤦‍♂️
      srslfc
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #96: Sep 04, 2021 10:58:53 pm
      There's a long long way to go. I've seen enough football in my life to know what a league title requires. I won't argue. I hope to god I'm wrong and we win the league. If not then it's painful being right. Literally can't win. You can plod along thinking Mane and Bobbys form is fine or they'll play their way back in to form, I personally believe they won't and their elite time is done and should have been replaced this year.

      I see you ignored my other points but whatever I cba

      Individual players form will ebb and flow and yes Mane and Firmino's form, Saido's in particular is a concern, but you cannot argue with the results.

      Last 13 games we are literally in title winning form, extrapolates as more or less 97 points over a season.

      Richard88
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #97: Sep 04, 2021 11:12:33 pm
      Good and healthy post. What it hasn't taken in to account is form. Bobbys form has been bad for a year and a half but Mane's is dreadful. Once we take this in to account all of a sudden we've not strengthened
      Mane has 5 goals in his last 10 league games.

      Firmino has 4 goals and an assist in his last 7 league games.

      That form seems absolutely fine. Yes they both had dips last year but the same could be said with the whole team, not just them two.

      We've also added Jota to effectively replace Origi as the 4th choice forward in the team (Origi had 28 GP/7 starts). So even if you want to stick to the narrative of Mane/Firmino's form being an issue, the upgrade from Origi to Jota more than offsets that.
      Richard88
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #98: Sep 04, 2021 11:18:15 pm
      Further to my post above, consider this:

      When we won the title in in 2019/20 Firmino scored 9 goals and 8 assists.

      Last year when Firmino had a perceived loss of form he had 9 goals and 7 assists.

      Needless to say this years iteration of Firmino isn't some massive liability all of a sudden. We won the league with him producing basically the same amount as he did last year.

      Richard88
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      Re: First Team Squad 21/22
      Reply #99: Sep 04, 2021 11:42:47 pm
      Mané's goal involvement by year:

      2020/21: 11 goals + 8 assists = 19
      2019/20: 18 goals + 9 assists = 27 
      2018/19: 22 goals + 2 assists = 24
      2017/18: 10 goals + 7 assists = 17

      It is certainly a concern that his production dropped last season, but if you remove that spell between January and early March when the whole team was a shambles - and instead focus on current form, then his production is absolutely fine and is right in line with his production from his two best years.

      Since March 15th when the team started winning again Mané has 5 goals and 4 assists for 9 goal involvements 13 PL games. In those 13 games he's played 1002 minutes with 9 goal involvements, for a rate of 111.3 minutes per goal involvement.

      In 2019/20 Mane played 2755mins with 27 goal involvements, for a rate of 102 minutes per goal involvement.

      Going back another year to 2018/19 when we won the CL, Mane's goal involvement was 128.5 minutes per goal involvement (3086mins/24).

      To summarize: Minutes per goal involvement:
      Last 13GP: 111.3
      2019/20: 102 (season we hit 98 points)
      2018/19: 128.5 (season we hit 97 points)

      Yes, Mane's production has decreased from the 2019/20 season, but only marginally. There's nothing wrong with his current form. His form right now is better than his form in the season we hit 97 points.

      Now, if you ask me if I think we need to start thinking about replacing Mané as he ages into his 30's, I would agree with that. But the argument we're having here is whether Mane on current form is a significant downgrade from what he produced in our best season, and as the numbers above show there really isn't much of a downgrade - certainly not as much as Salah10 is suggesting.


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