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      Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)

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      RedWilly
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #184: Jan 27, 2022 12:39:56 pm
      One recurrent problematic argument I see being made here is ''love the way we recruit and we've shown you don't need to match City for cash to compete with them BUT we need to spend much more'' (paraphrasing here). It is a paradox. We can't do both things at the same time. We can't recruit smart (which by the way requires a lot of time to find the appropriate targets and then pull the trigger at the right time for your squad) and then spend big money on the side with no real aim. You can spend big money but it has to be smart. We did so with VVD, Alisson and Fab to a certain extent.

      I still don't understand what's all the moaning about. The starting 11 hardly has any player you can improve upon without spending nearly 80M+ a pop on one of the 4 or 5 players playing comparable quality (not better) football in the same position at the current time and that could be available. And this is of course if you bypass all the ''good recuitement'' side of things because you're just going for names at that point with no other criteria being used other than ''they are good in whatever team they are at''.

      The depth of the squad is a moot debate. We are not going to swap Origi and Minamino for Mahrez and Grealish and we will never do so unless we are bought by some oil country or the club evolves into a huge business entity able to swallow 200 million pounds loans one after the other. Even if the ''owners dipped into their pockets'' we wouldn't have the means to pay such yearly wages for players who are brought in to play anything less than constant starting 11 football.

      With that said, we are going to buy players this summer and the next one to refresh the squad. We're going to see a winger who's job will be to take Sadio's place in the medium to long term future. We're also going to see a midfielder. Maybe a right-back to push TAA a bit like Tsimikas is doing with Robbo. All of this will also be supplemented with an academy player or two making the move into a more permanent spot in the squad (Gordon, Morton, Sepp, etc.)

      Edit: I also imagine the CB situation will get a look because right now Matip (deal runs until summer 2024) seems to be cememented into the starting role alongside VVD. Gomez will probably want to play more football so will Konate. I can see us selling one of Matip or Gomez (the former is more likely but then again both have had a lot of injury problems) and have a CB team consisting of VVD, GOMEZ/MATIP, KONATE, Sepp and some other name like Rhys or Koumetio eventually.

      I dont think anyone is saying we should just spend aimlessly? We can take the same methodical approach to transfers but also spend big at the same time when required.

      In the starting XI the midfield could be improved - Hendo (not that I’d get rid of him) could definitely be improved on, Millie, Keita, Ox could be improved upon - like Keita but he’s never fit. Same for Thiago - not reliable.

      Up top, Bobby and Mane could be improved upon but that won’t come cheap.

      I’m not saying every one of those players needs to go and a big name come in, but one player in who we know is going to go straight in the first XI and make a difference, not someone we have to develop and see how things go for a few years.

      I don’t see why there is no middle ground here, spending big occasionally without having to sell a big player first. It doesn’t mean people are asking us to spend oil money by wanting us to be in a position to outspend Aston Villa or some other team. We’re Liverpool, one of the biggest clubs in the world, we should be operating in the top markets not operating this super lean model where if we don’t get every transfer spot on we will fall off for the season.
      Salah10
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #185: Jan 27, 2022 12:44:11 pm
      I dont think anyone is saying we should just spend aimlessly? We can take the same methodical approach to transfers but also spend big at the same time when required.

      In the starting XI the midfield could be improved - Hendo (not that I’d get rid of him) could definitely be improved on, Millie, Keita, Ox could be improved upon - like Keita but he’s never fit. Same for Thiago - not reliable.

      Up top, Bobby and Mane could be improved upon but that won’t come cheap.

      I’m not saying every one of those players needs to go and a big name come in, but one player in who we know is going to go straight in the first XI and make a difference, not someone we have to develop and see how things go for a few years.

      I don’t see why there is no middle ground here, spending big occasionally without having to sell a big player first. It doesn’t mean people are asking us to spend oil money by wanting us to be in a position to outspend Aston Villa or some other team. We’re Liverpool, one of the biggest clubs in the world, we should be operating in the top markets not operating this super lean model where if we don’t get every transfer spot on we will fall off for the season.

      There's no middle ground with these lot. There's a world of elite players out there who apparently won't improve our eleven.

      Ok so for arguments sake we have to agree with this method fsg have employed. Scout the right player and bring them in but not pay the world for them. Great. Why are they not doing this? They've even stopped doing the same method you lot are defending.

      I'm trying to get my head around someone just posting that there isn't any midfielders who will improve our midfield 😂😂😂.

      I can't 😂
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #186: Jan 27, 2022 12:48:33 pm
      I dont think anyone is saying we should just spend aimlessly? We can take the same methodical approach to transfers but also spend big at the same time when required.

      In the starting XI the midfield could be improved - Hendo (not that I’d get rid of him) could definitely be improved on, Millie, Keita, Ox could be improved upon - like Keita but he’s never fit. Same for Thiago - not reliable.

      Up top, Bobby and Mane could be improved upon but that won’t come cheap.

      I’m not saying every one of those players needs to go and a big name come in, but one player in who we know is going to go straight in the first XI and make a difference, not someone we have to develop and see how things go for a few years.

      I don’t see why there is no middle ground here, spending big occasionally without having to sell a big player first. It doesn’t mean people are asking us to spend oil money by wanting us to be in a position to outspend Aston Villa or some other team. We’re Liverpool, one of the biggest clubs in the world, we should be operating in the top markets not operating this super lean model where if we don’t get every transfer spot on we will fall off for the season.

      Why is the answer always spend big

      Does spending big give you guarentees ?


      We didn’t need to spend big on the likes of Mane , Mo , Jota etc - surely it’s spending well and bringing in the right player as opposed to the expensive player


      The Jota/Werner situation is a perfect example - Chelsea spent big on Werner , we spent better on Jota

      You don’t need to spend big - you need spend well. There are lots of examples of players being bought for big fees and just not giving what’s required.

      There seems to be this constant narrative of spending big
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #187: Jan 27, 2022 12:50:34 pm
      There's no middle ground with these lot. There's a world of elite players out there who apparently won't improve our eleven.

      Ok so for arguments sake we have to agree with this method fsg have employed. Scout the right player and bring them in but not pay the world for them. Great. Why are they not doing this? They've even stopped doing the same method you lot are defending.

      I'm trying to get my head around someone just posting that there isn't any midfielders who will improve our midfield 😂😂😂.

      I can't 😂

      How did the likes of Jota , Thiago , Kostas and Konate arrive - the Easter Bunny ?
      Salah10
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #188: Jan 27, 2022 12:53:06 pm
      How did the likes of Jota , Thiago , Kostas and Konate arrive - the Easter Bunny ?

      Three of the four were 1.5 years ago. This year Konate. When we clearly needed more. That easter bunny is as blind as a bat if he couldn't see that.
      Salah10
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #189: Jan 27, 2022 12:53:42 pm
      Why is the answer always spend big

      Does spending big give you guarentees ?


      We didn’t need to spend big on the likes of Mane , Mo , Jota etc - surely it’s spending well and bringing in the right player as opposed to the expensive player


      The Jota/Werner situation is a perfect example - Chelsea spent big on Werner , we spent better on Jota

      You don’t need to spend big - you need spend well. There are lots of examples of players being bought for big fees and just not giving what’s required.

      There seems to be this constant narrative of spending big

      We spent big we won the league and champions league.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #190: Jan 27, 2022 01:05:15 pm
      We spent big we won the league and champions league.

      We spent well - buying the right players , and within the means of the club , without loans and without an owner having to dip into his pocket.

      We recruited well and we continue to do so - not sure why some don’t trust that process
      FL Red
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #191: Jan 27, 2022 01:17:02 pm
      Why is the answer always spend big

      Does spending big give you guarentees ?


      It did with Allison and VVD 😂

      Quote
      The Jota/Werner situation

      I don’t understand how this proves anything? It’s pretty well documented that Klopp wanted Werner. So are you saying Klopp was wrong? Not to mention you don’t know that had we bought Werner he wouldn’t be better than Jota under Klopp.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #192: Jan 27, 2022 01:20:21 pm


      It did with Allison and VVD 😂

      I don’t understand how this proves anything? It’s pretty well documented that Klopp wanted Werner. So are you saying Klopp was wrong? Not to mention you don’t know that had we bought Werner he wouldn’t be better than Jota under Klopp.

      Both VVD and Allison were cheaper than the likes of Maguire and Kepa. VVD was also that price because of what happened in the summer.


      Werner has clearly turned it an expensive flop , the club decided he wasn’t financially viable for the club and passed on him and went with Jota. 

      I’m pretty sure you couldn’t get Klopp to swap now - and as for Klopp being wrong - only have to see the Salah/ Brandt situation to see that at times the player they manager wants won’t always be the right player
      FL Red
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #193: Jan 27, 2022 01:22:35 pm
      Both VVD and Allison were cheaper than the likes of Maguire and Kepa. VVD was also that price because of what happened in the summer.


      Werner has clearly turned it an expensive flop , the club decided he wasn’t financially viable for the club and passed on him and went with Jota. 

      I’m pretty sure you couldn’t get Klopp to swap now - and as for Klopp being wrong - only have to see the Salah/ Brandt situation to see that at times the player they manager wants won’t always be the right player
      It’s funny how you always explain away any peoples counterpoints without actually addressing what they said. It’s cool though. Point taken.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #194: Jan 27, 2022 01:47:21 pm
      and there it is, another thread ruined by the usual few. Atta boy.
      RedWilly
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #195: Jan 27, 2022 03:48:25 pm
      Why is the answer always spend big

      Does spending big give you guarentees ?


      We didn’t need to spend big on the likes of Mane , Mo , Jota etc - surely it’s spending well and bringing in the right player as opposed to the expensive player


      The Jota/Werner situation is a perfect example - Chelsea spent big on Werner , we spent better on Jota

      You don’t need to spend big - you need spend well. There are lots of examples of players being bought for big fees and just not giving what’s required.

      There seems to be this constant narrative of spending big


      Because proven players generally are gonna cost a lot. I don’t care about the fee, I care about the quality.  Yeah we can pick out gems and proven we are good at it but if you want to be absolutely sure the player is going to work then you’re probably going for someone already proven - and therefore will cost money.

      Getting back to this thread, Bellingham for example would cost a lot. But if he’s the right player and he isn’t going for stupid money (subjective I guess, but I think you know what I mean) then we should be in for him (assuming if he is someone the manager wants obviously).

      If I want to buy a new car and want something that is reliable and modern and can handle driving across Europe then I’m going to go down the showroom and not to the bloke on the street corner selling his old skoda for 500 quid. The showroom costs more and there’s obvious reasons for that. 

      We can still be smart with signings and spend money - the two aren’t mutually exclusive.
      CT_LFC
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #196: Jan 27, 2022 03:56:13 pm
      Because proven players generally are gonna cost a lot. I don’t care about the fee, I care about the quality.  Yeah we can pick out gems and proven we are good at it but if you want to be absolutely sure the player is going to work then you’re probably going for someone already proven - and therefore will cost money.

      This is a bunch of made up stuff, though. Cost has little to do with quality or guaranteed performance/success

      How much did Grealish cost? he has 2 league goals
      How much did Havertz cost? he has 2 league goals
      How much did Werner cost? he has 1 league goal
      How much did Sancho cost? he has 1 league goal

      Meanwhile Origi and Taki have 2 goals each (in far fewer appearances than those above) and cost a fraction of that.


      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #197: Jan 27, 2022 03:57:12 pm
      Because proven players generally are gonna cost a lot. I don’t care about the fee, I care about the quality.  Yeah we can pick out gems and proven we are good at it but if you want to be absolutely sure the player is going to work then you’re probably going for someone already proven - and therefore will cost money.

      Getting back to this thread, Bellingham for example would cost a lot. But if he’s the right player and he isn’t going for stupid money (subjective I guess, but I think you know what I mean) then we should be in for him (assuming if he is someone the manager wants obviously).

      If I want to buy a new car and want something that is reliable and modern and can handle driving across Europe then I’m going to go down the showroom and not to the bloke on the street corner selling his old skoda for 500 quid. The showroom costs more and there’s obvious reasons for that. 

      We can still be smart with signings and spend money - the two aren’t mutually exclusive.

      Is that not what we have been doing over the last 4/5 years ?

      Buying the quality players and being smart about it ?

      And there is no such thing as a guarantee when buying a playing - proven or not

      Every single transfer has the potential to flop regardless of price


      And in regards Bellingham- if it’s a player the club would like then they would look at what can happen about getting the player into the club , and if it doesn’t work then look at alternatives

      FL Red
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #198: Jan 27, 2022 04:00:25 pm
      This is a bunch of made up stuff, though. Cost has little to do with quality or guaranteed performance/success

      How much did Grealish cost? he has 2 league goals
      How much did Havertz cost? he has 2 league goals
      How much did Werner cost? he has 1 league goal
      How much did Sancho cost? he has 1 league goal

      Meanwhile Origi and Taki have 2 goals each (in far fewer appearances than those above) and cost a fraction of that.




      So what you are saying is, under Klopp those expensive players would likely be doing better than they are under their current managers? Makes perfect sense to me.
      RedWilly
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #199: Jan 27, 2022 04:08:29 pm
      This is a bunch of made up stuff, though. Cost has little to do with quality or guaranteed performance/success

      How much did Grealish cost? he has 2 league goals
      How much did Havertz cost? he has 2 league goals
      How much did Werner cost? he has 1 league goal
      How much did Sancho cost? he has 1 league goal

      Meanwhile Origi and Taki have 2 goals each (in far fewer appearances than those above) and cost a fraction of that.




      If you’re going to pick out a bunch of expensive players who flopped then I can pick out a bunch of expensive players who succeeded. Or a bunch of cheap players who turned out sh*te. Completely arbitrary.

      Obviously you can’t guarantee success - some players just don’t fit no matter what, I remember being dead excited for Morientes to join. He was class and it just didn’t work out, it happens.

      But the question was why is spending big the answer and the point I made still stands, spending big will have to be the case if you are going for a player who has shown their quality, they don’t come cheap.

      Let me put it another way - if we think a player if the right fit for the team and isn’t going for ludicrous money, then should we not go in for them just because they are expensive? That’s how I feel FSG view things, ‘he’s expensive so we’re out’. Doesn’t matter about the quality or the fit, it just comes down to the figure.

      Also, I keep reading about how great we are at recruitment and not making mistakes. If that’s the case then the player shouldn’t flop anyway right?
      -LFC-
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #200: Jan 27, 2022 04:15:08 pm
      If he could be as good as De Bruyne in the next few years €90m would be a snip, especially if fit and reliable -- key factors. Keita was meant to be that player and Thiago was another attempt to add a level of class that we didn't have in midfield but so far the return has been wanting due to injuries. Signing a player of Bellingham's ilk would be to do what we have achieved with VVD, Ali and Mo but to our midfield.
      RedWilly
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #201: Jan 27, 2022 04:15:34 pm
      Is that not what we have been doing over the last 4/5 years ?

      Buying the quality players and being smart about it ?

      And there is no such thing as a guarantee when buying a playing - proven or not

      Every single transfer has the potential to flop regardless of price


      And in regards Bellingham- if it’s a player the club would like then they would look at what can happen about getting the player into the club , and if it doesn’t work then look at alternatives



      Have we spent money without first selling? Genuine question as I don’t look at all the figures in loads of detail but it certainly doesn’t feel that way to me. When it comes to transfers I’d wager we basically balance the incomings and outgoings since FSG have been in when it comes to transfers.

      Of course there’s no guarantee of success when it comes to footballers, they aren’t robots. But you can’t tell me that just because someone is expensive we should avoid it? We actually did spend under FSG at the start of their reign with Hendo, Carrol, Suarez and I think a few others around that time that didn’t all work out and it almost feels like they got burned and changed their approach.

      But again - if our recruitment is so methodical and spot on then the risk of flopping should be minimalised right? Or am I expected to believe that we would change our whole approach to scouting purely based on the fact the player is going to be expensive and we would just spunk the cash off?

      Anyway, this is getting into semantics, my point remains that we can surely afford to occasionally compete for a player who’s going to cost a fair few quid without having to sell a big name of our own first. Not every window, not every transfer but every now and again and when required.

      The way you’re going on you are making out that spending big on a player somehow means they are more likely to flop. No guarantee of success but if our recruitment is as good as you say then it shouldn’t be as much of a worry for us?
      CT_LFC
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #202: Jan 27, 2022 04:15:45 pm
      If you’re going to pick out a bunch of expensive players who flopped then I can pick out a bunch of expensive players who succeeded. Or a bunch of cheap players who turned out sh*te. Completely arbitrary.



      You are the one making the below statement.

      but if you want to be absolutely sure the player is going to work then you’re probably going for someone already proven - and therefore will cost money.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #203: Jan 27, 2022 04:17:30 pm
      If you’re going to pick out a bunch of expensive players who flopped then I can pick out a bunch of expensive players who succeeded. Or a bunch of cheap players who turned out sh*te. Completely arbitrary.

      Obviously you can’t guarantee success - some players just don’t fit no matter what, I remember being dead excited for Morientes to join. He was class and it just didn’t work out, it happens.

      But the question was why is spending big the answer and the point I made still stands, spending big will have to be the case if you are going for a player who has shown their quality, they don’t come cheap.

      Let me put it another way - if we think a player if the right fit for the team and isn’t going for ludicrous money, then should we not go in for them just because they are expensive? That’s how I feel FSG view things, ‘he’s expensive so we’re out’. Doesn’t matter about the quality or the fit, it just comes down to the figure.

      Also, I keep reading about how great we are at recruitment and not making mistakes. If that’s the case then the player shouldn’t flop anyway right?

      I don’t agree that the club ( not sure why it’s just FSG ) go “we’re out” if the player is expensive ? But again depends on what’s expensive and also what the funds are available.

      They will always look a value and worth as opposed to just the price tags.

      If they think player provides value for the money and fits what’s needed then they will look to get him. Under FSG we have broken our transfer record a number of times
      RedWilly
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #204: Jan 27, 2022 04:19:31 pm

      You are the one making the below statement.


      Alright mr literal. F**k me - talk about being pedantic.

      I’ll keep in mind in the future to absolutely spell everything out for you.

      Obviously every signing is a risk, or do we really need to explain that basic premise every time this topic gets discussed?
      RedWilly
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #205: Jan 27, 2022 04:22:31 pm
      I don’t agree that the club ( not sure why it’s just FSG ) go “we’re out” if the player is expensive ? But again depends on what’s expensive and also what the funds are available.

      They will always look a value and worth as opposed to just the price tags.

      If they think player provides value for the money and fits what’s needed then they will look to get him. Under FSG we have broken our transfer record a number of times

      I don’t really care about other clubs, so they can do whatever they want although I do think football has been ruined with the money involved.

      I agree we should look for value and worth but I think there’s a limit to what we’re willing to spend on transfers unless we have brought cash in from other sales first. You dont think that and that’s fine. On the point of what’s expensive I agree, it is subjective. From my point of view I’m referring to those players that are 60-80mill. Beyond that you’re going into mad figures that I don’t realistically expect us to compete with. But I think FSG have very little appetite to go for players in that market unless we have sold first. I might be wrong but that’s what I perceive the case to be, but it’s obviously all speculation unless John Henry comes out and gives us his point of view.

      Breaking transfer record isn’t a big tick in the box either, the transfer market has gone mad so that would always happen, gone are the days of 25mill being our record transfer unfortunately.
      « Last Edit: Jan 27, 2022 04:31:18 pm by RedWilly »
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Jude Bellingham (Dortmund)
      Reply #206: Jan 27, 2022 04:25:15 pm
      Had FSG not sanctioned our record breaking transfers after our record breaking sale then I’m afraid we don’t get the quality of Virgil, Ali & the success they bought to the club...

      Bellingham is the type of midfielder we should be going all out for... imagine him being alongside Elliot ...?

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