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      Q. LFC Man of the Match v Chelsea?

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      Voting closed: Jan 06, 2022 06:24:58 pm

      Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

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      srslfc
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #920: Jan 03, 2022 10:23:42 pm
      Not a lot of positives from yesterday but Kelleher definitely one.

      Midfield was a huge issue and our three lads got out fought and out run by Kovacic and Kante which is a worry.

      Milner is really starting to show his years, Henderson is in the poorest run of form I can remember and Fabinho was also way off the pace.
      UncleBob
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #921: Jan 03, 2022 11:00:22 pm
      In regards the spending/money question the club have spent around £1bn on players since FSG bought the club

      Since Klopp arrived it’s been £560mil on players

      And I’m not sure what you mean by what money they have saved ?

      The club are not going to spend £200mil above the income of the club


      For the club to spend more than it earns and to be at that level (£200mil ) would mean the club would need to

      1. Take out loans
      2. FSG use money from their other sports teams
      3. Club is sold


      We didn’t need to do any of those to buy

      Mane , Mo , Gini , Keita , Fabinho , Ox , Bobby, Jota , Thiago , VVD , Allison

      Yet we do now 🤷‍♂️

      It’s an odd one really; because on the one hand you have these supporters who want the owners to spend £200m on new players so we can compete with the oil clubs, but on the other hand they didn’t want the club to join the super league (and riches that go with it) because it would rip away our soul and traditions and what not.

      The only way we can compete financially with the oil clubs is to either get new owners who are like the sheikhs, or have joined the super league.

      I just don’t understand why people think business owners would spend more money than the business is making in a climate where revenue could be switched off like a drop of a hat.

      GERNS
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #922: Jan 03, 2022 11:21:07 pm
      Not a lot of positives from yesterday but Kelleher definitely one.

      Midfield was a huge issue and our three lads got out fought and out run by Kovacic and Kante which is a worry.

      Milner is really starting to show his years, Henderson is in the poorest run of form I can remember and Fabinho was also way off the pace.

      But it wasn’t Kovacic and Kante was it. With playing 3 at the back, their wing backs gave them plenty of support on the flanks. We were therefore outnumbered 4 to 3.
      Fab couldn’t offer the usual cover for our back four as he was being pulled all over the place trying to cover the spaces. I just don’t think Hendo and Millie were the best options.
      As good as Millie has been, 36 year old v 20-23 year olds. Never works that unless the older party has pace to burn.
      0-2 up and we still going end to end. Should have just shut up shop until half time at least.
      Probably would have had a better second half as well.
      Mane Red card ? Seen them given, but also seen the mount offence given red as well.
      Just gotta crack on, do our best, and see what aspires.
      I’ve certainly not given up.
      skolRED
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #923: Jan 04, 2022 12:33:49 pm
      IMO, in ideal world, if Naby become the player everyone expect him to be and Thiago can play at number of game we hope for then things could be complete different.
      Or even if Harvey Elliott did not suffered that injury!!!
      That sounded crazy but we should not have to start with Milner vs Chelsea, or very inconsistent Ox for many games.

      If it's Pep and Mancity, the like of Naby now nowhere near their club. That's what different between their owner and our.
      ***thanks to anyone who want to shout f**k off and go support mancity haha ***

      Another thing is most difficult thing in the world to talk here as no one allow to touch Klopp's tactics.
      But here I'd say why on earth Klopp never adapt to something different that suit our player staffs when need. For exsamle, such a three at the back thing which we now have three top quality CBs. Whenever we have shortage in midfield or we need to hold the lead we are more than capable to close the job instead of hoping for Trent and Hendo to stop waves of attack through their side which everyone in the world know they are always weak to do so.   
      PolarBearRed
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #924: Jan 04, 2022 01:27:37 pm
      I had to let myself cool down a couple of days before making this post. Not because I was angry at any of the players or coaches but just because I feel like our season, despite not being catastrophic on paper, has so far exhausted me and has already had lots of highs and lows.

      I'm not going to analyze the whole game but the one thing that is a common theme since the beginning of the season: Over and over again we fail miserably at controlling games against big and smaller teams when in the lead or when the game is a draw and we need to manage the oncoming pressure for a stint of time. 

      What is the common theme between the Brentford, Brighton, City, Tottenham and Chelsea games (at Stamford Bridge)? You guessed it, those are five games where we take the lead (sometimes multiple leads) and we end up losing it. One thing that is also common to these games is that anybody watching them live was not surprised when the lead was finally lost because it had been coming for some minutes. Maths? Okay, lets do the maths on those 5 games. 5 games x 2 points lost each = 10 points. Does that ring any bell? That sounds awfully similar to the number of points separating us from City in the lead doesn't it? I said before that the tittle is won or lost against the 14 other teams outside of the traditional top six. However, even if you take the City, Chelsea, and Tottenham games out of the equation you realize that we lost 6 points against West Ham and Leicester because of the control we are failing to impose on games.

      With that said, which parts of the team or what can we identify as the causes/reasons leading to this? I think that having scored 52 goals in 20 games we can safely say that the front line is not the problem. If you add to this that out of those 5 games I mentioned above we scored 2 or more goals in every singe one of them and still got out with 1 point instead of 3 then we can surely say that the guys upfront did what they had to. A frontline is not supposed to go into games with the objective being to score 3 goals in order for you to bag all the points.

      My first and most obvious culprits in all of this are three players. Jordan Henderson, Virgil van Dijk and Alisson Becker. Sorry but not good enough. Am I talking about the actual kicking, passing and saving a ball part? No. I'm talking about leadership and the calming effect you're supposed to have on your teammates. For god's sake you're 3 world class players who are Premiership and CL winners. I expect of you that once we've got the lead you calm everybody around you and make sure that nobody puts a foot wrong. Minimize errors, pass the ball around, impose ourselves on the other team FFS we're Liverpool FC. Look at the number of unforced errors in the Brentford game. We literally could not keep the ball for more than 5 seconds before giving it back to Brentford over and over again. Sort it out lads, especially VVD and Alisson. Much less vocal this year, I want to see you shouting your lungs off and directing everybody. We're not supposed to crumble under pressure.

      My second culprit is Fabinho. This issue has flew under the radar (including mine) for a good part of the season. What is the issue? One game Fabinho is a 12/10. Then next he gives you a shocker of a game. Like I said many times, if Fabinho is having a bad day at the office then LFC is having a bad day at the office. I'm not sure if this is related to the lack of communication from his backline that I mentioned above but Fab will go from best CDM in the world in one game to headless chicken in the next one with lots of attack passing him by like nothing.

      My third culprit is the midfield overall. This is very evident whenever Thiago is injured or out of form for a game. Lack of control over the game by just making the small simple little passes that break the first line of press of the opposition. This leads to generalized panic because you effectively find yourself on the receiving end of what we do to teams which is press them and take the ball from them in various areas of the midfield. Gini and Thiago are/were the two players in that midfield who are very good at keeping the ball under pressure. The latter is excellent because not only he does not lose it he also pierces through one or two lines of press with simple but effective passes. Eliott was showing signs of this as well because of how calm he is on the ball and while not as good as passer as Thiago (yet) he has vision, skills and lots of balance on the ball which helps him keep and move some yards past a first line of press. What is the solution to this problem? We either need to make sure Thiago stays healthy and in form (not very much in our control here) or we need to change how we get out of our half with the ball, at least when we are in the lead. Obviously I'm not a professional manager so take what I'm gonna say with a huge grain of salt but this could be something as simple as keeping the wingers high as they are already but pulling the midfield a few yards back in order to facilitate passing triangles between them, the two full backs and our center-backs with an aim of pulling towards you the pressing lines of the opposition just enough to create a few extra yards of space behind those and then releasing long passes from VVD, Trent and Thiago to Jota, Salah, Mane, Origi. It's not optimal in terms of creating but we've got very skilled passers and the goal here is not necessarily to score but to keep a lead by compacting our midfield and defence a bit more and pulling them just a few yards back all while capitalizing on our fast forwards and the eagerness of the other team to attack us when they are behind on the scoreboard. Effectively, what I'm saying is give the opposition something to think about by feeding them some stick and not carrot after carrot because right now they press us like crazy over and over again with no counter measures from us, we just give the ball back over and over again. Depending on how it is implemented this could also see Thiago (or once he's back Keita) be at the top point of a midfield triangle with Hendo and Fabinho when we have the ball. He would effectively be tucked in between the first and second line of pressing of the opposition with his job being to receive the ball after the pull of the opposition's first line of press and quickly release the front three. Once again, I'm not saying this is supposed to be a creative solution. The nuance here is that its just a way of creatively beating the opposition out of their press instead of getting dispossessed over and over again until we concede. It is inherently creative from an attacking point of view because you employ Salah, Jota, Mane and Firmino who can make things happen whenever you give them space to run into and passes.

      I will not say that VVD and the backline (including Alisson), from a defensive point of view, are particularly at blame here. Why? Simply because you cant give the ball away in our own half as much as we did in those games all while playing a very high backline and expect them to always mop up the mess. Some might say oh but they did in past seasons. Yes they did, like what, 3 or 4 attacks per game not 8 to 10+ attacks. I'm sorry but Kane and Son running at Matip and Konate 5+ times in the space of one half is hardly good game management. Same for the Chelsea game where I watched that Chelsea frontline freely run at VVD and Konate all second half long.

      ruthcity
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #925: Jan 04, 2022 04:32:13 pm
      It’s an odd one really; because on the one hand you have these supporters who want the owners to spend £200m on new players so we can compete with the oil clubs, but on the other hand they didn’t want the club to join the super league (and riches that go with it) because it would rip away our soul and traditions and what not.

      The only way we can compete financially with the oil clubs is to either get new owners who are like the sheikhs, or have joined the super league.

      I just don’t understand why people think business owners would spend more money than the business is making in a climate where revenue could be switched off like a drop of a hat.

      It’s simple. We want the owners to splash out their own money to support the club financially. Not trying to earn money from a football club and spending within the club’s means, while also not selling our soul to the devil.

      Win at all costs, regardless of the club going broke while winning. If that happens they should pump in more money to support the club financially.

      Based on me naive football fan’s argument, if we win, we will never go broke. Win and everyday is Christmas. Every problem is solved. Never mind if matchday has no fans and revenue. Winning is all I care. Never mind if owners have to keep ploughing money to sustain the club. It’s not my money. They should keep their customers happy.

      In short we want an oil sheik or Russian oligarch, or a Chinese internet mogul. All of whom are not FSG. We want every damn thing.
      FL Red
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #926: Jan 04, 2022 04:43:47 pm
      So if the owners aren't to blame for us blowing leads (and I think that's a reasonable argument that they aren't), then it means its either the players or the manager that are to blame.

      It doesn't seem like it could be Klopp's fault as no one has pointed one finger at him, which leaves the players. So the argument then boils back down to us needing more/different players.

      City aren't losing leads...so either Pep is a better manager than Klopp (he's not), or they have better players than us. If that's the case then we need to figure out a way to get better players (most times that means spending money).
      Brian78
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #927: Jan 04, 2022 05:02:03 pm
      So if the owners aren't to blame for us blowing leads (and I think that's a reasonable argument that they aren't), then it means its either the players or the manager that are to blame.

      It doesn't seem like it could be Klopp's fault as no one has pointed one finger at him, which leaves the players. So the argument then boils back down to us needing more/different players.

      City aren't losing leads...so either Pep is a better manager than Klopp (he's not), or they have better players than us. If that's the case then we need to figure out a way to get better players (most times that means spending money).

      Yes Jürgen needs to look at that, hes not beyond a question or 2 being asked.

      Obviously he wasnt at Chelsea and we dont know the involvement he had but this is why id say players and management TEAM not just the boss shouldering it.

      Go back 30 40 years ago. Best team in Europe, could play outstanding football. But no better team to go 1 up and pass the ball back to Brucie to hold then roll out toba defender to give it back to Bruce again and repeat. Killing time, killing opponents momentum winding up the fans and opposition players..

      Obviously our lads cant do that now but why can we not change the set up and the tactics to hold what we have? At 2 nil why chase a 3rd? At 3 1 why go for 4? Great to watch but not so much if you lose what you have. Again I will never understand not seeing out that 5 mins before half time Sunday. Some are claiming players were tired. Ok if its the 85th minute maybe but not 40th

      Management should have decided then get in at half time with the lead, however it had to be done. They had crazy space to play with at 2 nil up with minutes to half time
      Salah10
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #928: Jan 04, 2022 05:23:27 pm
      It’s an odd one really; because on the one hand you have these supporters who want the owners to spend £200m on new players so we can compete with the oil clubs, but on the other hand they didn’t want the club to join the super league (and riches that go with it) because it would rip away our soul and traditions and what not.

      The only way we can compete financially with the oil clubs is to either get new owners who are like the sheikhs, or have joined the super league.

      I just don’t understand why people think business owners would spend more money than the business is making in a climate where revenue could be switched off like a drop of a hat.

      How do Villa do it?

      How does EVERYONE in the league, apart from us, do it?

      I don't see them lining up outside the liquidations office, do you?
      FL Red
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #929: Jan 04, 2022 05:28:10 pm
      Yes Jürgen needs to look at that, hes not beyond a question or 2 being asked.

      Obviously he wasnt at Chelsea and we dont know the involvement he had but this is why id say players and management TEAM not just the boss shouldering it.

      Go back 30 40 years ago. Best team in Europe, could play outstanding football. But no better team to go 1 up and pass the ball back to Brucie to hold then roll out toba defender to give it back to Bruce again and repeat. Killing time, killing opponents momentum winding up the fans and opposition players..

      Obviously our lads cant do that now but why can we not change the set up and the tactics to hold what we have? At 2 nil why chase a 3rd? At 3 1 why go for 4? Great to watch but not so much if you lose what you have. Again I will never understand not seeing out that 5 mins before half time Sunday. Some are claiming players were tired. Ok if its the 85th minute maybe but not 40th

      Management should have decided then get in at half time with the lead, however it had to be done. They had crazy space to play with at 2 nil up with minutes to half time

      I think players may be tired. Trent never gets a game off. Could be the reason his form has dipped as of late. Who knows.

      But when you see a team like City that can rotate in almost a completely new midfield whenever they need and you see us who struggle to put together a fit first team midfield it certainly points to issues with player personnel.

      Brian78
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #930: Jan 04, 2022 05:32:16 pm
      I think players may be tired. Trent never gets a game off. Could be the reason his form has dipped as of late. Who knows.

      But when you see a team like City that can rotate in almost a completely new midfield whenever they need and you see us who struggle to put together a fit first team midfield it certainly points to issues with player personnel.



      I was surprised at the line up Sunday, really thought Keita would start, bring that energy and creativeness. Hes fresh enough to.

      Anyway looks like Thursday, if on, will tell a tale. Had to laugh when chelseas team and subs came up plus leaving lukaku out but moaning looking for games off, unreal
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #931: Jan 04, 2022 05:33:56 pm
      How do Villa do it?

      How does EVERYONE in the league, apart from us, do it?

      I don't see them lining up outside the liquidations office, do you?


      Didn’t Villa sell their best player for 100mil as well as breaking FFP rules ?
      Brian78
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #932: Jan 04, 2022 05:34:38 pm

      Didn’t Villa sell their best player for 100mil as well as breaking FFP rules ?

      Is that an actual thing 😂😂😂
      Brian78
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #933: Jan 04, 2022 05:35:21 pm
      ffp unless your Barce Real or city
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #934: Jan 04, 2022 05:36:18 pm
      Is that an actual thing 😂😂😂

      It still is - it’s actually monitored in the EFL it seems and still within UEFA and Prem - most clubs are working within FFP it seems ( well some clubs do a bit of financial cheating )
      Brian78
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #935: Jan 04, 2022 05:41:34 pm
      It still is - it’s actually monitored in the EFL it seems and still within UEFA and Prem - most clubs are working within FFP it seems ( well some clubs do a bit of financial cheating )

      city and barce on the Torres deal!!
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #936: Jan 04, 2022 05:52:41 pm
      city and barce on the Torres deal!!

      They find ways to balance the losses - hence City being sponsered and have “relationships” with Abu Dhabi companies - who just so happen to be owned by the same people
      Salah10
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #937: Jan 04, 2022 05:58:48 pm
      ffp unless your Barce Real or city

      FFP unless you're anyone but us.
      bmck
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #938: Jan 04, 2022 05:58:56 pm
      So if the owners aren't to blame for us blowing leads (and I think that's a reasonable argument that they aren't), then it means its either the players or the manager that are to blame.

      It doesn't seem like it could be Klopp's fault as no one has pointed one finger at him, which leaves the players. So the argument then boils back down to us needing more/different players.

      City aren't losing leads...so either Pep is a better manager than Klopp (he's not), or they have better players than us. If that's the case then we need to figure out a way to get better players (most times that means spending money).

      Yeah, regarding blowing leads, presume then people are questioning Jurgens tactics?
      He's never been one to 'shut up shop', not sure why people think he's going to do that. And, even if we did decide to try that, no guarantee it's going to work anyway.
      The players are not beyond criticism obviously, and some do look a bit more sluggish/sloppy than usual, particularly in the middle. Which again, puts more pressure on the defense.
      So are people saying Jürgen shouldn't be playing those players?  And we should have for example Keita, AOC etc starting instead?
      I thought Jones looked very good when he came on against Chavs - but I don't see the lads in training - Jürgen and his team do.
      Easy to say, we should've started Jones or Keita or whatever in hindsight - but think most people weren't unhappy with the midfield three before the game, even with Milly, given it was away to Chavs and needed to win the battle.
      Jürgen prefers certain players in big matches, always has - if others are not getting started as much as people want, why is that? And this obviously leads on to questions like, well if he doesn't trust them, should we be looking for players he does. And so onto the owners, investment etc
      Keith Singleton
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #939: Jan 04, 2022 06:05:55 pm


      City aren't losing  leads...so either Pep is a better manager than Klopp (he's not), or they have better players than  us. If that's the case then we need to figure out a way to get better players (most times that means spending money).

      No sh!t Sherlock, how did you work that out.  :lmao:  UAE owners will do the trick  :f_whistle:


      I think players may be tired. Trent never gets a game off. Could be the reason his form has dipped as of late. Who knows.



      Players tired?? Thought you said 100% of players could play after the ten day isolation period was over and play to their full capacity? Changed your mind now.  :f_doh:
      FL Red
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #940: Jan 04, 2022 07:40:36 pm
      No sh!t Sherlock, how did you work that out.  :lmao:  UAE owners will do the trick  :f_whistle:


      Players tired?? Thought you said 100% of players could play after the ten day isolation period was over and play to their full capacity? Changed your mind now.  :f_doh:

      You still following me around weirdo? Odd that you know more about what I post than I do. Don't remember ever saying that 100% of players could play after isolation (not that it matters since that's not the context of what I was posting about Trent). But since you seem to stalk me on here, if you say so I guess I must have posted it. It's actually starting to become a bit unsettling this weird thing you have going on with me...maybe put me on ignore or something. It's making me uncomfortable how obsessed you seem to be.
      Keith Singleton
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #941: Jan 04, 2022 07:45:19 pm
      You still following me around weirdo? Odd that you know more about what I post than I do. Don't remember ever saying that 100% of players could play after isolation (not that it matters since that's not the context of what I was posting about Trent). But since you seem to stalk me on here, if you say so I guess I must have posted it. It's actually starting to become a bit unsettling this weird thing you have going on with me...maybe put me on ignore or something. It's making me uncomfortable how obsessed you seem to be.

      Not stalking you just pointing out your errors/faults, not my fault if you can’t remember what you post now is it. If you make sh!t up your always going to be called into question as it’s you looking like the fool. Rather than post without thinking maybe put some thought into unless it’s beyond you.
      « Last Edit: Jan 04, 2022 08:16:55 pm by Keith Singleton »
      rossyred
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      Re: Chelsea 2-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #942: Jan 04, 2022 07:56:50 pm
      I think players may be tired. Trent never gets a game off. Could be the reason his form has dipped as of late. Who knows.

      But when you see a team like City that can rotate in almost a completely new midfield whenever they need and you see us who struggle to put together a fit first team midfield it certainly points to issues with player personnel.

      Trent has played 21games in 4 1/2 months works about  just over 1 game a week which really shouldn't be too much of a problem should it ?

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