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      Why have we made such a slow start?

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      Robby The Z
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      Why have we made such a slow start?
      Aug 23, 2022 10:41:15 pm
      https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/aug/23/liverpools-early-season-woes-have-variety-of-factors-behind-them

      Title of an Andy Hunter article but I think the topic deserves its own thread (after 44 pages of posts from the United match). Nothing in the article really new, but a decent summary.

      We looked old and slow in too many instances last night.  Answer must be so much more involved than "buy somebody." Who is/are the man/men to really step up and right the ship?
      FL Red
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #1: Aug 24, 2022 01:13:21 am
      In my view, we look tired and a few players look like they are more concerned with re-tweeting their Ballon 'Dor nominations than working their ass off.

      We don't seem to press as much as we used to and when we do press it's one or two not the entire team working together. Bobby spent most of his time in midfield last night and in his CF absence, neither Diaz or Mo came inside much so basically we did United's work for them. Not sure if that was tactical by Klopp or just players not doing what they were supposed to.

      Also...injuries (suspension). If we have Thiago and Matip and Jota and Konate and Nunez I highly doubt we lose that game last night and probably eek out wins in the first two as well.

      That's my opinion. I don't think buying one (or two) midfielders is going to magically make this the team we had last year fighting for 4 trophies. I think we still have the majority of that team (minus Sadio) we just need them healthy.
      adammac
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #2: Aug 24, 2022 01:49:01 am
      Besides injuries (main reason) I notice that Robbo/TAA have had poor starts to the season. When we are thin in the mid-field, teams plug up the middle we rely on these two to dictate the attack out wide and create chances while neither have been very good at doing so. Robbo trying hard but execution hasn't been there and Trent has been the same though because media is focus on his defending skills and he doesn't work as hard up and down the line (relies on his passing) TAA seems to be getting more stick about it then Robbo.

      Same can be said for Hendo/Fabinho who started the season poorly (proof is the fact each of them were bench by Klopp for Milner) and when are missing Thiago/Ketia we need to lean on them more they haven't delivered.

      There are a few more things as well, pretty much everything bad that can happen is happening at the moment.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #3: Aug 24, 2022 11:31:10 am
      Because the lads are f**king knackered after five or six years of constant success, going deep into the season and then starting the following one early. With very little time in between to rest up. And I'm not one who usually blames tiredness, I think a lot of the time it's a bullshit excuse because "back in the day" players were able to play 60 odd matches on mud baths eating steak dinners for their pre-match meal and having a drop of brown ale at half time. But this group of lads look f**king dead on their feet at the minute and it's not surprising when you consider our season ended on the 28th May (in defeat) followed almost instantly by a trip back home for the day-long homecoming and then almost as quickly we were back in Asia for pre-season friendlies before starting the competitive stuff on the 31st July.

      And if you look at the United game's starting XI over the past five years, so many of those lads have played well in excess of 200 games. We've had a maximum of 286 since the start 17/18 season;

      Salah 258 games. (aged 30)
      Firmino 240 games. (aged 30)
      Robertson 228 games. (aged 28)
      Trent 218 games. (aged 23)
      Henderson 214 games. (aged 32)
      Milner 208 games. (aged 36)

      Van Dijk (aged 31) has 185 games having joined halfway through the 17/18 season, so you'd imagine had he been there for the full season he'd of played over 200 games in that period as well - despite being injured for a large part of 20/21 year. And Alisson (aged 29), who joined in 18/19, has 187 games to his name so again if he'd been here since the 17/18 campaign it's safe to assume he'd of played over 200 games by now.

      Elliott and Diaz have only been in and around the first team for a short period. So basically the only player (who's been around long enough) to of not played a considerable amount of games over the last five years who started against United is injury prone Gomez, who has 132 appearances in that time period - less that 50% of the possible games.

      That's not including the amount of games they've played for their international sides either.

      And then there's the factor of age. Most of that starting XI are already the wrong side of 30. Now I know it's not like it used to be, it's not once you hit 30 you're done but it does still mean you're in the second half of your career. People are already talking about Milner, Henderson and Firmino being finished. Some are saying Van Dijk isn't the same player since his injury because the older you get the harder it is to recover from a long-term absence like that.

      Unfortunately, this group of players that have served us so well over the last five years has got too many miles on the clock and aged graciously together. Maybe it's unsurprising then that when we've brought new-blood into the team over the past year or two (Jota, Konate, Diaz, Nunez) they've looked like the shot in the arm we needed.

      Of course if injuries hadn't ravaged the squad the way they have, these players wouldn't be playing as many minutes as they've had to this season. And Jürgen would of been able to rotate them a lot more like he'd want to. But unfortunately we have been hit by injuries so we're relying on already weary bodies to get us through and that isn't going to happen all the time.

      Get a couple of the injured list and who knows, maybe we'll be back to where we belong.
      brezipool
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #4: Aug 24, 2022 12:04:22 pm
      Because the lads are f**king knackered after five or six years of constant success, going deep into the season and then starting the following one early. With very little time in between to rest up. And I'm not one who usually blames tiredness, I think a lot of the time it's a bullshit excuse because "back in the day" players were able to play 60 odd matches on mud baths eating steak dinners for their pre-match meal and having a drop of brown ale at half time. But this group of lads look f**king dead on their feet at the minute and it's not surprising when you consider our season ended on the 28th May (in defeat) followed almost instantly by a trip back home for the day-long homecoming and then almost as quickly we were back in Asia for pre-season friendlies before starting the competitive stuff on the 31st July.

      And if you look at the United game's starting XI over the past five years, so many of those lads have played well in excess of 200 games. We've had a maximum of 286 since the start 17/18 season;

      Salah 258 games. (aged 30)
      Firmino 240 games. (aged 30)
      Robertson 228 games. (aged 28)
      Trent 218 games. (aged 23)
      Henderson 214 games. (aged 32)
      Milner 208 games. (aged 36)

      Van Dijk (aged 31) has 185 games having joined halfway through the 17/18 season, so you'd imagine had he been there for the full season he'd of played over 200 games in that period as well - despite being injured for a large part of 20/21 year. And Alisson (aged 29), who joined in 18/19, has 187 games to his name so again if he'd been here since the 17/18 campaign it's safe to assume he'd of played over 200 games by now.

      Elliott and Diaz have only been in and around the first team for a short period. So basically the only player (who's been around long enough) to of not played a considerable amount of games over the last five years who started against United is injury prone Gomez, who has 132 appearances in that time period - less that 50% of the possible games.

      That's not including the amount of games they've played for their international sides either.

      And then there's the factor of age. Most of that starting XI are already the wrong side of 30. Now I know it's not like it used to be, it's not once you hit 30 you're done but it does still mean you're in the second half of your career. People are already talking about Milner, Henderson and Firmino being finished. Some are saying Van Dijk isn't the same player since his injury because the older you get the harder it is to recover from a long-term absence like that.

      Unfortunately, this group of players that have served us so well over the last five years has got too many miles on the clock and aged graciously together. Maybe it's unsurprising then that when we've brought new-blood into the team over the past year or two (Jota, Konate, Diaz, Nunez) they've looked like the shot in the arm we needed.

      Of course if injuries hadn't ravaged the squad the way they have, these players wouldn't be playing as many minutes as they've had to this season. And Jürgen would of been able to rotate them a lot more like he'd want to. But unfortunately we have been hit by injuries so we're relying on already weary bodies to get us through and that isn't going to happen all the time.

      Get a couple of the injured list and who knows, maybe we'll be back to where we belong.

      The main thing is the injuries and as you have summarized the team is going through a transition, and the squad in general is knackered.

      As Ive said in other threads the injuries are not all long term, its just mental they have all happened at the same time, especially when things were looking so good in the charity shield game. Perhaps there is a witch in town. ;D
      billythered
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #5: Aug 24, 2022 12:35:10 pm
      Because the lads are f**king knackered after five or six years of constant success, going deep into the season and then starting the following one early. With very little time in between to rest up. And I'm not one who usually blames tiredness, I think a lot of the time it's a bullshit excuse because "back in the day" players were able to play 60 odd matches on mud baths eating steak dinners for their pre-match meal and having a drop of brown ale at half time. But this group of lads look f**king dead on their feet at the minute and it's not surprising when you consider our season ended on the 28th May (in defeat) followed almost instantly by a trip back home for the day-long homecoming and then almost as quickly we were back in Asia for pre-season friendlies before starting the competitive stuff on the 31st July.

      And if you look at the United game's starting XI over the past five years, so many of those lads have played well in excess of 200 games. We've had a maximum of 286 since the start 17/18 season;

      Salah 258 games. (aged 30)
      Firmino 240 games. (aged 30)
      Robertson 228 games. (aged 28)
      Trent 218 games. (aged 23)
      Henderson 214 games. (aged 32)
      Milner 208 games. (aged 36)

      Van Dijk (aged 31) has 185 games having joined halfway through the 17/18 season, so you'd imagine had he been there for the full season he'd of played over 200 games in that period as well - despite being injured for a large part of 20/21 year. And Alisson (aged 29), who joined in 18/19, has 187 games to his name so again if he'd been here since the 17/18 campaign it's safe to assume he'd of played over 200 games by now.

      Elliott and Diaz have only been in and around the first team for a short period. So basically the only player (who's been around long enough) to of not played a considerable amount of games over the last five years who started against United is injury prone Gomez, who has 132 appearances in that time period - less that 50% of the possible games.

      That's not including the amount of games they've played for their international sides either.

      And then there's the factor of age. Most of that starting XI are already the wrong side of 30. Now I know it's not like it used to be, it's not once you hit 30 you're done but it does still mean you're in the second half of your career. People are already talking about Milner, Henderson and Firmino being finished. Some are saying Van Dijk isn't the same player since his injury because the older you get the harder it is to recover from a long-term absence like that.

      Unfortunately, this group of players that have served us so well over the last five years has got too many miles on the clock and aged graciously together. Maybe it's unsurprising then that when we've brought new-blood into the team over the past year or two (Jota, Konate, Diaz, Nunez) they've looked like the shot in the arm we needed.

      Of course if injuries hadn't ravaged the squad the way they have, these players wouldn't be playing as many minutes as they've had to this season. And Jürgen would of been able to rotate them a lot more like he'd want to. But unfortunately we have been hit by injuries so we're relying on already weary bodies to get us through and that isn't going to happen all the time.

      Get a couple of the injured list and who knows, maybe we'll be back to where we belong.





      Excellent post again Billy, can’t add anything really to it, my take on it is similar  to yours, imo we should have started replacing the older players from the beginning of last season, one season may not seem that different but it does now that we are clearly short of quality in midfield,
      It’s said Bellingham of BvB wouldn’t be a ideal long term signing, and Jürgen likes the boy too, so perhaps a deal similar to that what we did to land Naby, had we done so Jude would have been a option for us now, of course you could say the same for any player we had a eye on,

      When everything is going well and we’re firing on all cylinders none of this aged thing comes to light, so perhaps in a weird sort of way, our slow start and woeful performances is a lightbulb moment and suddenly the aged thing becomes a hindrance rather than being a bonus,

      I don’t think we’re at a stage where panic will set in but, it’s abundantly clear we need new quality fresh hearts, minds & legs especially in midfield, Naby for instance has had enough opportunities but it looks again like he’s crocked, yet again, he’s actually becoming a liability rather than a asset,  it’s not going to work for him here so I’d be selling and get  as much as we can for him,

      Milner will give his all again for us one last season, and I hope he’s employed at our academy in some capacity, we can’t let this fella go elsewhere, his experience, knowledge and psychology is priceless, imagine the wisdom he can pass on to our Young guns ?

      Henderson, again will give everything for the team, but his extensive talent is somewhat limited and we have without doubt gotten the very best from him, for me he peaked in our title winning season and has waned ever since, now we’re seeing the same Hendo we seen 10 years ago, there is no sympathy in football, he has served us with distinction but for the good of the club and perhaps himself, he needs to move on,
      Alex Ox Chamberlain is another bench warmer who we need to ship out, you can count in your hand the standout performances he has given us in the time he has been here, for me he wasn’t the ideal fit even during Brendan’s tenure, and definitely a square peg in Jürgen’s,

      Fabinho is a interesting debate, against the Munts on Monday I felt that if he starts we win that game, as woeful as our defence was it was completely exposed without him in there, his position like that of Thiago’s are the only two we haven’t  got like for like replacements, and that has to change asap, that’s two thirds of our engine room we need the highest quality money can buy, that would be my priority going forward,

      Big season for Curtis Jones, for me he has to step up this season, if he doesn’t i don’t think he ever will unfortunately, we play at a standard perhaps beyond him, in normal circumstances I think he would do well and probably eek out a few seasons here, but this is a different level, a level I think he struggles with, I’m not throwing the lad under the bus just yet, but he has to prove he IS good enough and it has to happen soon,

      Thiago, how do you replace this fella ? I don’t think there is a better AM in the world never mind the EPL, he’s got the lot hasn’t he ? His passing, long or short is outstanding, his vision is just incredible, he sees things 3/4 seconds before anyone else, can slide a ball thru with perfect timing and weight with ease, how we missed his creativity against those MUtants on Monday or indeed any game he’s not there, first name on the team sheet for me,

      As for youngsters Elliot & Carvahal I think we’re safe for a few seasons at least, but yes your right mate, once we get one or two back and Nunez has finished his sabbatical, we will see a different animal, like I said no need to panic, but it’s abundantly clear we are in need of some new swinging dicks, especially midfield, won’t happen this window, but I’m sure it’s been looked at as we type.




                                                                              Y  N  W  A
      Keith Singleton
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #6: Aug 24, 2022 02:01:36 pm




      Excellent post again Billy, can’t add anything really to it,


                                                                              Y  N  W  A

      Make up your mind you scouse fcuker  :f_doh: When I mentioned the lads were tired you disagreed.  :P :P
      clint_call01
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #7: Aug 24, 2022 02:25:07 pm
      Three obvious reasons:
      • Lack of energy and intensity.

        Defensive errors from different individuals.

        Injuries/suspension and not buying a attacking midfielder.


      We need dig deeper.
      __Tickle__
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #8: Aug 24, 2022 03:00:31 pm
      Injuries, squad size, squad age.

      Perhaps the last 2 have caused the first 1

      LiverpoolReds90
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #9: Aug 24, 2022 03:17:47 pm
      injuries and squad getting older
      waltonl4
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #10: Aug 24, 2022 03:30:18 pm
      Seems we also have let players slip into their last year of Contract which never seemed to happen until recently Mo, Sadio, OX, Naby,.
      We seem to have fallen slightly from the very high standards the club used to run.
      I wonder how we got to 1 week of the transfer window only to find our midfield is lacking drive and bite.
      Longy-Shops
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #11: Aug 24, 2022 03:56:37 pm
      Injuries, squad size, squad age.

      Perhaps the last 2 have caused the first 1

      I'll say it one last time, We didn't look tired in the Charity Shield match. So I for one am not having the fatigue excuse.
      Anyone who's ever played the game will tell you that you feel like you are running in treacle when things are not going to plan, and this can appear as tiredness. Everyone is right in that we don't have key personnel available due to the numerous injuries and that is of course a massive factor, but it doesn't explain why the players on the field are not competing to their usual level.
      Against Fulham there was an arrogant just turn up and bag the 3 points attitude. Unacceptable and fortunate to get a point.
      Against Palace *, (presuming they'd all had a bol**king from the boss) they upped the effort, but perhaps over compensated and tried to force it. This combined with out of character defensive errors and sloppy passing allowed an ordinary team to come to Anfield and leave with a deserved point.
      The Man U game: Strange team selection didn't help but basically bullied and outworked, and to me accepted the defeat once United scored.
      The subs were too late coming as is all too often the case...Carvalho brought some creativity and energy and that in turn sparked a few of the others into action....again far too late.
      Summing up, the poor start is a multiple of reasons..I hate to say it, but bad attitude can't be ruled out as one of them.
      I don't think any of us can forecast the game on Saturday...It was only a few weeks ago it was a nailed on victory. We need the 3 points badly.






      YNWA
      *The red card. With Palace tiring late in the game, Nunez on the pitch may have helped secure the 3 points.
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #12: Aug 24, 2022 04:18:15 pm
      Injuries, arrogance, complacency, lack of concentration, relying on the same out of form players because we haven’t made enough signings for cover. I.e, Trent having zero competition for his place.
      Red card hasn’t helped matters either.
      srslfc
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #13: Aug 24, 2022 07:49:15 pm
      The lads are goosed physically and mentally from last season as a few have said above.

      Add in far too many injuries again which I feel could be due to an intense short pre season which has taken its toll on the players that are susceptible to injuries.

      Also I think we're going through a transition in the squad that either hasn't been fully thought through yet or we are yet to see the results of the work on the training ground in the games.

      We look like a side with players to fit a system we aren't yet playing and also a team a bit out of ideas and very predictable to play against. Caught between two stools almost of a 4 3 3 with false nine and a more 4 2 3 1 with neither actually being totally utilised properly in games.

      Add in some of our big players looking like they're still on holidays and e could be in for a tricky few games if we don't get our act together.

      Or sign a couple of players.

      « Last Edit: Aug 24, 2022 07:56:09 pm by srslfc »
      waltonl4
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #14: Aug 24, 2022 08:02:13 pm
      Injuries, squad size, squad age.

      Perhaps the last 2 have caused the first 1



      I think some have been to the well one too many times and have nothing left to give
      waltonl4
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #15: Aug 24, 2022 08:03:46 pm
      remember those Zombie games with no crowd and we couldnt get a win for no particular reason then from somewhere we found a way again.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #16: Aug 24, 2022 08:08:14 pm
      I'll say it one last time, We didn't look tired in the Charity Shield match. So I for one am not having the fatigue excuse.

      So f**king what lad?

      Just because somebody feels fresh as a daisy on Monday, doesn't mean they're not f**king knackered by Wednesday.

      And the Charity Shield probably offers more buzz and adrenaline given it's for a trophy, it's at Wembley, it's a chance to show your nearest rivals how up for the season you are. and with the exception of Alisson and Jota, we had basically a fully fit squad to choose from. Something that we haven't had since, resulting in us having to play the same players in all three League games and coincidentally that has made some of them look a little fatigued.

      Go f**king figure!

      EDIT: IT WASN'T AT WEMBLEY (I can make mistakes)
      « Last Edit: Aug 24, 2022 08:15:47 pm by dunlop liddell shankly »
      waltonl4
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #17: Aug 24, 2022 08:14:30 pm
      So f**king what lad?

      Just because somebody feels fresh as a daisy on Monday, doesn't mean they're not f**king knackered by Wednesday.

      And the Charity Shield probably offers more buzz and adrenaline given it's for a trophy, it's at Wembley, it's a chance to show your nearest rivals how up for the season you are. and with the exception of Alisson and Jota, we had basically a fully fit squad to choose from. Something that we haven't had since, resulting in us having to play the same players in all three League games and coincidentally that has made some of them look a little fatigued.

      Go f**king figure!

      they had a full week off between games so how the f**k will they cope this week with 3 games in a week. No way should they be tired or fatigued mentally or otherwise. Maybe win the three games next week and these first games will be forgotten but I think we all know our team and the energy it displays the energy levels for whatever reason have not be full on.
      johnlfcreds2010
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #18: Aug 24, 2022 08:15:05 pm
      They are finely tuned athletes these days and doesn’t take a lot to knock that effort level down a peg or two . Could be tiredness but I tend to think it’s more likely that they are mentally fatigued from the efforts of last season especially.
      It must take its toll on players to put all that effort in over a season and come up short by a point . And that’s the second time it’s happened .
      Even tough they get paid ridiculous amounts of money it’s the holy grail of the league title that they’re all after .
      The players will come good and we will be up there again without a doubt but I am sure that efforts this year will be on the cups especially the champions league .
      Already we have have problems in the premier league so it may be a top 4 type of season this year but who knows , it’s a strange season with the World Cup in the middle.
      dunlop liddell shankly
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #19: Aug 24, 2022 08:23:20 pm
      they had a full week off between games

      Again, so f**king what? Sometimes not playing hurts more because you've got more time to stew over things. You actually want to put things right so you try even harder the following game and end up making more mistakes than you usually would.

      how the f**k will they cope this week with 3 games in a week.

      They'll cope the way they have for the last five or six years and go deep into competitions, picking up silverware along the way. Something we've already done in this "disastrous" season.

      No way should they be tired or fatigued mentally or otherwise.

      Why not? They're not f**king robots. They're allowed to suffer both mentally and physically like anybody else does.

      Maybe win the three games next week and these first games will be forgotten

      It seems like quite a lot has been forgotten of late.

      but I think we all know our team and the energy it displays the energy levels for whatever reason have not be full on.

      No they haven't.

      And if it's not the players feeling fatigued or just having a bad run of form for the first time in five f**king years then it must be Jürgen not being able to get a tune out of them anymore, in which case let's get the Klopp Out banners going.
      Tadders
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #20: Aug 24, 2022 10:11:47 pm
      Make up your mind you scouse fcuker  :f_doh: When I mentioned the lads were tired you disagreed.  :P :P

      How is this guy allowed on here?
      Longy-Shops
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      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #21: Aug 24, 2022 10:29:40 pm
      Again, so f**king what? Sometimes not playing hurts more because you've got more time to stew over things. You actually want to put things right so you try even harder the following game and end up making more mistakes than you usually would.

      They'll cope the way they have for the last five or six years and go deep into competitions, picking up silverware along the way. Something we've already done in this "disastrous" season.

      Why not? They're not f**king robots. They're allowed to suffer both mentally and physically like anybody else does.

      It seems like quite a lot has been forgotten of late.

      No they haven't.

      And if it's not the players feeling fatigued or just having a bad run of form for the first time in five f**king years then it must be Jürgen not being able to get a tune out of them anymore, in which case let's get the Klopp Out banners going.

      What's this "bad run of form for the first time in five years"...Didn't we lose about 6 on the bounce at home about 18 months ago? We've been poor these last 3 games. The negative reaction IMO is fuelled due to the lack of any real quality in the opposition faced.

      -LFC-
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
      • *****

      • 3,255 posts | 846 
      Re: Why have we made such a slow start?
      Reply #22: Aug 24, 2022 11:32:32 pm
      Not implausible to think fatigue could be a factor given the immensity of our efforts across four fronts last season.

      Related to that, and in my view probably the most significant cause of our woeful start, is the injuries we've suffered combined with a failure to anticipate this situation (which was not entirely unforseeable given the injury record of certain players and the age/inexperience of others) by bringing in one or two players in the midfield, which would have lessened our dependence on some of the older players whose talents are waning -- notwithstanding their great experience and reliability as characters in the dressing room.

      Sometimes you also need to refresh the team to bring a new dynamic, new energy, new competition, to ward off stale patterns of play and to keep the team moving forward. This is what we achieved when we signed Jota, Diaz and Konate, and I think we were starting to see it with Nunez.

      I'm not sure any of these reasons excuse being outfought against the Mancs, Darwin committing a brazen act of stupidity Vs Palace, Trent waltzing around like he's untouchable or the manager failing to make changes quickly enough or starting with Fabinho on the bench in a crunch match.

      There comes a point when we should be talking about a better season despite all of the setbacks because that's the standard we expect and not unreasonably so given the ability of those selected. The likes of Trent, Virgil and Robbo have been well below their usual standards and that's on them to a large extent. To think otherwise is to not place due responsibility where it properly lies.

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