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      Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion

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      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #966: Oct 11, 2022 03:42:22 pm
      Tomkins did an analysis probably for simpletons like you ( actually you are not that simple just a stooge).
      It showed the biggest correlation to success was how much you spent.

      I suppose City, Chelsea and Utd during their most successful period were idiots for spending so much.


      How much success have Utd had over the last ten years after they have spent more than any other club


      Zero leagues
      Zero CL


      Since 2015/16 maybe - Chelsea for all that extra spending have won no more than us


      And those other clubs you mentioned

      West Ham
      Wolves
      Villa
      Spurs
      Arsenal
      Newcastle
      Everton


      How have they got on when it comes to winning trophies in the past decade ?


      So is it always about who spends the most 🤷‍♂️

      In fact let’s look at a couple of examples


      Better buy


      Diaz -£50mil or Grealish - £100mil ?

      Alisson £60mil or Kepa -£75mil

      VVD £75mil or Maguire £80mil

      Jota £45mil or Werner £60mil

      Blimey I suspect we could go on but you probably get the picture now
      « Last Edit: Oct 11, 2022 04:10:46 pm by Lallana in Pyjamas »
      brezipool
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #967: Oct 11, 2022 04:12:53 pm

      How much success have Utd had over the last ten years after they have spent more than any other club


      Zero leagues
      Zero CL


      Since 2015/16 maybe - Chelsea for all that extra spending have won no more than us


      And those other clubs you mentioned

      West Ham
      Wolves
      Villa
      Spurs
      Arsenal
      Newcastle
      Everton


      How have they got on when it comes to winning trophies in the past decade ?


      So is it always about who spends the most 🤷‍♂️

      In fact let’s look at a couple of examples


      Better buy


      Diaz -£50mil or Grealish - £100mil ?

      Alisson £60mil or Kepa -£75mil

      VVD £75mil or Maguire £80mil

      Jota £45mil or Werner £60mil

      Blimey I suspect we could go on but you probably get the picture now


      This is very true.

      The reality is , theres a balance to be had between running a club sensibly and spending big on players.

      I personally think FSG do ok, like many many clubs there is a could do better factor, but also a be careful what you wish for factor too.

      Its difficult tbh.
      Keith Singleton
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      • Sir Lewis Hamilton
      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #968: Oct 11, 2022 04:18:45 pm

      How much success have Utd had over the last ten years after they have spent more than any other club


      Zero leagues
      Zero CL




      If your going to put so called facts up can you least try get it right and not twist things to suit your debate?

      In the last ten years United have!

      Won Premier league 2012/13
      Won Europa league 2016/17
      Won FA Cup 2015/16

      Also one  minor competition

      League Cup along with a friendly Community Shield thrown in.
      HScRed1
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #969: Oct 11, 2022 04:21:28 pm
      You should advise all those teams they are wasting their money.

      Think you are clever by cherry picking some examples, players are no guarantee look at Keita.
      Why don’t you mention the club not going for Haaland but the cheaper option of Taki?

      Arsenal have invested heavily and are now starting to see the benefits of buying young talent, why don’t you highlight that?




      « Last Edit: Oct 11, 2022 04:36:11 pm by HScRed1 »
      HScRed1
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #970: Oct 11, 2022 04:28:47 pm
      The stats don’t lie you don’t invest you get left behind.

      When Klopp leaves it will be a eye opener to some who have got used to him performing miracles.
      Will be seen as a wasted opportunity to not have given a once in a life time manager the tools to compete and no I’m not saying go and buy Mbappe!
      « Last Edit: Oct 11, 2022 05:59:29 pm by HScRed1 »
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #971: Oct 11, 2022 04:47:24 pm
      You should advise all those teams they are wasting their money.

      Think you are clever by cherry picking some examples, players are no guarantee look at Keita.
      Why don’t you mention the club not going for Haaland but the cheaper option of Taki?

      Arsenal have invested heavily and are now starting to see the benefits of buying young talent, why don’t you highlight that?


      Sorry did the club have a choice between Haaland and Minamino? When did this occur ?


      And Arsenal have had 9 good games - can you remember last year when they had some good games and then fell away ?


      Can you explain why the teams that are spending more than us are not winning more than us beyond City 🤷‍♂️

      __Tickle__
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #972: Oct 11, 2022 05:00:56 pm

      How much success have Utd had over the last ten years after they have spent more than any other club


      Zero leagues
      Zero CL


      Since 2015/16 maybe - Chelsea for all that extra spending have won no more than us


      And those other clubs you mentioned

      West Ham
      Wolves
      Villa
      Spurs
      Arsenal
      Newcastle
      Everton


      How have they got on when it comes to winning trophies in the past decade ?


      So is it always about who spends the most 🤷‍♂️

      In fact let’s look at a couple of examples


      Better buy


      Diaz -£50mil or Grealish - £100mil ?

      Alisson £60mil or Kepa -£75mil

      VVD £75mil or Maguire £80mil

      Jota £45mil or Werner £60mil

      Blimey I suspect we could go on but you probably get the picture now


      Do you think we would be competing with those mid table clubs if we had spent like them?

      All your words to me make me feel is Jürgen has won 1 of everything in his time here with a small net spend. Imagine what could have been achieved if we spent a bit more!?
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #973: Oct 11, 2022 05:17:03 pm
      Do you think we would be competing with those mid table clubs if we had spent like them?

      All your words to me make me feel is Jürgen has won 1 of everything in his time here with a small net spend. Imagine what could have been achieved if we spent a bit more!?


      Who knows - there is zero guarentee,


      The club has a model that it works too - it spends what it makes , no loans for players , no dipping into personal fortunes.


      We may not spend more on transfers but we do spent more on wage bill - that seems to be ignore when it comes spending for the club.

      Klopp is a superb manager - he works well with the tools given and he appears to prefer to work with this model - said a number of times that he isn’t a fan of the oil splurge or just spending for the sake of spending etc - this is the manager that told the club to not pursue Werner because he felt he wasn’t financially viable

      The club model isn’t going to change , they have a football director who works alongside the finance and the manager and scouts to bring in the players to fit the managers system at the best market value along with the budget available - it’s up to the manager and scout etc to decide the players they need to bring in then and maybe on Jan etc

      It’s also up to the commercial side to being in more commercial money to enable the manager etc to have more funds etc



      If the money isn’t there to spend then where do people expect the money to come from





      HScRed1
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #974: Oct 11, 2022 05:17:04 pm

      Sorry did the club have a choice between Haaland and Minamino? When did this occur ?


      And Arsenal have had 9 good games - can you remember last year when they had some good games and then fell away ?


      Can you explain why the teams that are spending more than us are not winning more than us beyond City 🤷‍♂️



      You think they could not have gone for Haaland?
      Look know you work for FSG but didn’t know you worked that closely with them 🤣

      Stop acting so dopey, nobody suddenly starts winning everything, you think City started wining straight away?

      It’s a process and once it starts it will go the way you act,
      Watch the toon in the next 5 years,

      You seem to have this misconception that we want mega stars bought in, no just a bit more support for the manager when even he himself says we need to take more risks.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #975: Oct 11, 2022 05:25:43 pm
      You think they could not have gone for Haaland?
      Look know you work for FSG but didn’t know you worked that closely with them 🤣

      Stop acting so dopey, nobody suddenly starts winning everything, you think City started wining straight away?

      It’s a process and once it starts it will go the way you act,
      Watch the toon in the next 5 years,

      You seem to have this misconception that we want mega stars bought in, no just a bit more support for the manager when even he himself says we need to take more risks.

      Where has all this Haaland stuff come from now ? Let me guess some bed wetter on social media has made a claim that we had a choice between the two and picked Taki because he was cheap and then people like you swallow it


      And City took 3 years from Dubai arriving and spending millions to get titles and they just spend and spend - if someone does work out then they just go out and buy someone else etc etc



      And it’s a simple question - where does the extra money come from if the budget isn’t there ?
      HScRed1
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #976: Oct 11, 2022 05:35:58 pm
      Where has all this Haaland stuff come from now ? Let me guess some bed wetter on social media has made a claim that we had a choice between the two and picked Taki because he was cheap and then people like you swallow it


      And City took 3 years from Dubai arriving and spending millions to get titles and they just spend and spend - if someone does work out then they just go out and buy someone else etc etc



      And it’s a simple question - where does the extra money come from if the budget isn’t there ?

      Oh so now spending money does get you success! Make up your mind you will get dizzy otherwise 😁

      Apparently we know generate more revenue than Utd, so well done FSG, so where’s the money John Henry? They still outspend us considerably and take out a dividend 🤷‍♂️

      I know they are investing in infrastructure, see that’s the issue they are interested in increasing the value of the brand where as fans want team investment, not a lot just a bit more.



      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #977: Oct 11, 2022 05:49:36 pm
      Oh so now spending money does get you success! Make up your mind you will get dizzy otherwise 😁

      🤷‍♂️ Sorry I’m not sure what you are reading - and I don’t recall there are any guarentee’s beyond a club just being able to buy anyone they can

      There are plenty of clubs that have shown it’s not just about how much is spent but more about how well the money is spent


      Quote
      Apparently we know generate more revenue than Utd, so well done FSG, so where’s the money John Henry? They still outspend us considerably and take out a dividend 🤷‍♂️


      Man Utd also have huge debt and for outspending us don’t outperform us on a consist basis so again it’s not just about how much is spent but how well money is spent

      Quote
      I know they are investing in infrastructure, see that’s the issue they are interested in increasing the value of the brand where as fans want team investment, not a lot just a bit more.


      Yes they are investing infrastructure to enable ti stadium to be bigger to get more of us in to then allow bigger match day revenues which - and the money for that stadium build is loans which are payable back whenever - never been talk about money being taken away from transfers to pay for the infrastructure


      So where does the extra money come that you want to see spent
      « Last Edit: Oct 11, 2022 05:57:48 pm by Lallana in Pyjamas »
      bmck
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      • YNWA
      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #978: Oct 11, 2022 06:04:16 pm
      This season is about damage limitation now, we really need to get back to basics and find what will make us solid at the back, personally I still think Trent should be dropped with Joe replacing him, I would get Konate back in the starting line up somehow also.

      Really hope he drops TAA and starts Gomez next time out.
      Whatever about anything else, we need to shore up the defense.
      Part of that is sufficient cover in front, so would expect he goes back to 4-3-3 for Citeh.
      But Gomez starting for TAA, first step.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #979: Oct 11, 2022 06:06:38 pm
      Really hope he drops TAA and starts Gomez next time out.
      Whatever about anything else, we need to shore up the defense.
      Part of that is sufficient cover in front, so would expect he goes back to 4-3-3 for Citeh.
      But Gomez starting for TAA, first step.


      Think Gomez will start against City - but it’s not just TAA that is having issues - VVD has been poor - hopefully Robbo is back and having Konate back is a bonus
      HamannsTheMan
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #980: Oct 11, 2022 07:15:54 pm
      So for the last 14/16 months Klopp has Elliot playing in a midfield three and that’s 99% of his career at the club with Klopp clearly preferring him to play there - yet you say it’s wrong ? How are you 100% correct and Klopp wrong then ?


      No he didn’t - he played him there last pre season because that’s were he thought he looked best


      He has also played 99% of his games in the Prem as a midfielder-



      Sorry but the “every player has his price” is nonsense - and Dortmund have shown they can’t be bullied - the history is there , they sell on their terms , the player can look to force it but if the club don’t want to sell then they won’t.

      Bellingham will be sold when Dortmund are ready to sell



      Those figures are what I got from transfer market - you can check if you want 🤷‍♂️


      Again who went out the door for big money for us to sign Konate , Diaz , Nunez - the last “big money” player then went out was Coutinho

      The club sell players no longer needed or who want to leave
      Last season we challenged for every single trophy going with the same players minus Mane and we have brought in Nunez - there are multiple reasons why we aren’t doing as well so far but it’s not a “decline” - that imo is overreacting after a poor start

      Because he was about 12 when we first signed him and wasn’t going to go into the team when we had salah and mane. You’re just echoing and proving my point. I know Elliott has played the majority of his games in the middle. That’s because we’ve signed just two midfielders since 2019. Arthur and Thiago. What year did Elliott start playing as a cm for us?

      It’s not nonsense. You denying it is nonsense. Every player has a price. We are a much bigger club than dortmund and if our owners were ruthless then we would have signed Bellingham. But they’re not ruthless. Far from it. To sign Bellingham means we need to sell whatever his value is first.

      Those figures may or may not be correct but you just chose whatever players you felt like. You failed to list everybody. Lots of players have left who we made money on, allowing us to sign certain players. So again, what is the actual net spend during klopps time here and what does it average out per season? It is nowhere near 60m a season which is what your post stated. So why on earth do you think FSG would go out and sign Bellingham for 80m let’s say, when there hasn’t been any evidence of them doing that without recouping that value, or close to that value, first?

      Do you think we need new players to challenge for the title again or not? Because I don’t think this squad of players are anywhere near challenging for a title. Age has caught up with them and the neglect by FSG is finally showing.
      Lallana in Pyjamas
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #981: Oct 11, 2022 07:34:23 pm
      Because he was about 12 when we first signed him and wasn’t going to go into the team when we had salah and mane. You’re just echoing and proving my point. I know Elliott has played the majority of his games in the middle. That’s because we’ve signed two midfielders since 2019. Arthur and Thiago. What year did Elliott start playing as a cm for us?

      He started playing in the midfield three in 2021 which was his first season in the first team . I don’t understand why you think it’s an issue when the manager clearly thinks it is where he should be best playing 🤷‍♂️ And he played when other midfielders were on the bench


      Quote
      It’s not nonsense. You denying it is nonsense. Every player has a price. We are a much bigger club than dortmund and if our owners were ruthless then we would have signed Bellingham. But they’re not ruthless. Far from it. To sign Bellingham means we need to sell whatever his value is first.

      So Dortmund don’t want to sell , they don’t need to sell, the player doesn’t want to force a move , there is no release clause - so tell me what the club can do to force Dortmund to sell.

      Care to explain how you can force Dortmund to sell when they have zero intention of selling ?


      It’s not a buyers market right now unless the selling club have financial issues , there is a release clause.


      Quote
      Those figures may or may not be correct but you just chose whatever players you felt like. You failed to list everybody. Lots of players have left who we made money on, allowing us to sign certain players. So again, what is the actual net spend during klopps time here and what does it average out per season? It is nowhere near 60m a season which is what your post stated. So why on earth do you think FSG would go out and sign Bellingham for 80m let’s say, when there hasn’t been any evidence of them doing that without recouping that value, or close to that value, first?

      I have given you evidence 🤷‍♂️ Who did the sell to recoup the money they spent on Diaz in Jan ?




      The transfer list is there for all to see -


      https://www.footballtransfers.com/en/transfer-news/uk-premier-league/2022/06/jurgen-klopp-net-spend-how-liverpool-compare-man-utd-chelsea-man-city/amp

      Klopp's net spend by season
      Season   Estimated net spend (£m)
      2015/16*   5
      2016/17   4
      2017/18   58
      2018/19   163
      2019/20   0
      2020/21   93
      2021/22   41
      2022/23   69


      Not sure he needs to “average” out - but that shows that if Bellingham was a target for them next season and he cost £80mil etc then I don’t doubt they would go for him and the money would be there to be spent - without having to sell any player they didn’t want too


      The club will always sell players when the manager etc deem them surplus to requirements or the player wants to move on - but that’s just part of the sport is it not, at some stage players will leave

      Quote
      Do you think we need new players to challenge for the title again or not? Because I don’t think this squad of players are anywhere near challenging for a title. Age has caught up with them and the neglect by FSG is finally showing.


      I thought the squad was good enough to challenge again but it would be hard just as it always is but results haven’t gone well so far and don’t see anyone but City winning the title , but I have no doubt that our big players ( who aren’t suffering with age ) - TAA , VVD , Salah , Thiago etc will find their form and pick up to see us challenge in the CL and Domestic Cups
      AussieRed
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #982: Oct 12, 2022 01:38:16 am
      Getting back to the Match... yes we were sh*t, conceded, 3 inexcusable goals, yet we were a BS penalty decision away from taking a point.

      This all against Top of the ladder, flying Arsenal at their home ground in front of their baying for Blood supporters and we still nearly drew the game.

      Imagine what we could do to Teams if we ever get our Mojo and swagger back!
      Keith Singleton
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      • Sir Lewis Hamilton
      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #983: Oct 12, 2022 06:04:24 am
      Getting back to the Match... yes we were sh*t, conceded, 3 inexcusable goals, yet we were a BS penalty decision away from taking a point.

      This all against Top of the ladder, flying Arsenal at their home ground in front of their baying for Blood supporters and we still nearly drew the game.

      Imagine what we could do to Teams if we ever get our Mojo and swagger back!

      Do you think losing Mane is one of the reasons why your not playing well?
      AussieRed
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #984: Oct 12, 2022 06:24:28 am
      Do you think losing Mane is one of the reasons why your not playing well?

      Everyone says it's not, but it's pretty obviuos it's had a bearing on our season.

      One of the lads came out last week only, can't remmeber who it was, and said the lads were shattered when Sadio left.

      I know I was and still am.

      The Man is a running machine and just does not get injured!!

      Diaz was supposed to be a signing to give us further strength on that flank, now we are back to square 1 and although I love Luis, he's just not the finisher Sadio is/was.

      Don77
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #985: Oct 12, 2022 07:07:49 am
      Everyone says it's not, but it's pretty obviuos it's had a bearing on our season.

      One of the lads came out last week only, can't remmeber who it was, and said the lads were shattered when Sadio left.

      I know I was and still am.

      The Man is a running machine and just does not get injured!!

      Diaz was supposed to be a signing to give us further strength on that flank, now we are back to square 1 and although I love Luis, he's just not the finisher Sadio is/was.



      Having Diaz last January gave a glimpse of what proper strength in depth can do. We were able to move mane central or rotate him with Diaz or move Jota central. Having that depth definitely helped us 2nd half of the season. Mane plays right side and only moved to accommodate Mo. Given Mo's form since afcon what an option Mane from the right would be. But alas its not happening.

      But I think we all knew at the time diaz was brought in as someone was leaving and only brought in early as there was serious interest in him. That kind of depth of quality ... in our current circumstances is never going to be allowed is it.

      If Bobby goes end of season that leaves Diaz Jota Mo and Nunez. Won't be enough so it's not just midfield that needs investment.
      hardcoresoldier
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      • The Liverpool Way is The Only Way
      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #986: Oct 12, 2022 08:44:34 am
      Do you think losing Mane is one of the reasons why your not playing well?

      Absolutely. It cannot be argued. Mane set the tempo and also the example that others follow. His energy was infectious. It has clearly disappeared.

      Another reason is the Salah contract. There are lots of players who are now questioning the Club after being signed with a strict wage structure in place. The Salah deal has now set a precedent.

      I have no problem with FSG putting the caps in place to make the Club a sustainable model, no problem at all. If anything i am for it. I want to see us win things the right way, the honest way. On one hand FSG are stabilising the Club with the investment in infrastructure but on the other hand the breaking of the wage structure now makes them fair game. I would rather FSG had stuck by their principles and let Salah go than cause all this upheaval by essentially bending the knee to Mo. As much as i love Mo he is not worth £350k a week.

      The issue with this new deal is that they have violated their own terms and have now created an elitist atmosphere at the Club. Trust me on this, there are a lot of pissed off players at the Club now who will be looking for more money and will be questioning the ethics of John Henry and Co.

      If you took a job on the premise that you were paid slightly less than the going rate to help sustain the business model of equity and fairness and then found out someone doing the same job was being paid more than the going rate, wouldn't you be pissed off?

      Oh, i almost forgot. Who is left to deal with the fallout from this? Yes, Jürgen Klopp.

      Are FSG trying to piss him off? Jürgen is going through a tough time right now and FSG are doing absolutely f**k all to help him, after all he has done for us.
      brezipool
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      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #987: Oct 12, 2022 08:53:53 am
      Everyone says it's not, but it's pretty obviuos it's had a bearing on our season.

      One of the lads came out last week only, can't remmeber who it was, and said the lads were shattered when Sadio left.

      I know I was and still am.

      The Man is a running machine and just does not get injured!!

      Diaz was supposed to be a signing to give us further strength on that flank, now we are back to square 1 and although I love Luis, he's just not the finisher Sadio is/was.



      Legends have come and gone for over 100 years pal.

      These things happen, nothing is forever.

      We are now building a new team, sadly it may just take longer to sort than we though.

      But having another unlucky season injury wise aint helping.

      tezmac
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      • F**k the Sun F**k Murdoch F**k the press
      Re: Arsenal 3-2 Liverpool: In game and Post Match discussion
      Reply #988: Oct 12, 2022 09:36:42 am
      You cant make this up can you
      Penalty not given
      Penalty given that wasnt
      And now the first goal was offside but unable to check due to technical fault
      And people think the is no agenda against Liverpool

      Quick Reply