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      Is English officiating corrupt?

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      sore monad
      • Forum Legend - Benitez
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      Is English officiating corrupt?
      Sep 30, 2023 10:11:50 pm
      Thought we needed a specific thread on this.

      I'm asking the question without being 100% sure of the answer. I've generally been inclined to put bad decisions down to mistakes, sometimes incompetence and sometimes footballing bias. But what we saw tonight was genuinely strange. The VAR official clearing a bad offside decision in about 3 seconds, seemingly without drawing the lines? Er, that's just not how it's done.

      It's a measure of just how flagrantly wrong that was, that even the PGMOL lot have come out and admiited there was a major F**k up, claiming "human error" as part of their damage limitation exercise. But it's very, very hard to imagine how the VAR official can have somehow forgotten that his job is to draw the lines when checking an offside call. I mean that is what he has to do - that's it, it's not something you can just go "oops, forgot to do that, ah well I'll make the call anyway". You could wonder if maybe his technology stopped working, so he decides just to do by naked eye. But the problem there is that (a) he took about 3 seconds to give his technology the chance to work, and (b) it was still obviously onside by naked eye, so how could he manage to get it wrong even in that scenario?

      Then you add to it the fact the same VAR guy induced the ref to change his initial correct decision on Jones' yellow (but no, let's make it a red) card. And doing so by initially showing the ref a still which completely distorted the reality of Jones' totally genuine attempt to play the ball, something that was totally obvious to anybody that's ever watched football.

      The whole officiating, especially by VAR, looks like somebody really didn't want us going top of the league tonight.

      And then you look at the series of bizarre red cards we've already had this season, as Klopp introduces a seriously dangerous looking Liverpool 2.0.

      And then you start thinking back to VAR not seeing things like Everton's blatant penalty against City in our last tight title race.

      To state the obvious, there's huge money involved in footy nowadays. And, as some people insisted during the Saudi's transfer window raids, "everybody has their price". I think it is now looking more and more likely that some of our officials have had their price met.

      It may be that this has been the case for years. Maybe it's always been the case - there have been some officials who will take a bung - it wouldn't be surprising, and it's been proved it's been happening many times in other leagues - there's no real reason to think England is immune. But in the past you could put it down to refereeing error, only getting one look in real time etc. With VAR, this no longer holds, and it's just getting very hard to come with plausible explanations for some of the weird decisions. Up to now most of us have been able to believe it's just incompetence, or maybe footballing bias. But after tonight's farce, these relatively innocent explanations are getting really hard to believe.
      Nox
      • Forum Kevin Keegan
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      • 343 posts | 17 
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #1: Sep 30, 2023 10:44:41 pm
      PGMOL are actual F***ing clowns and something needs to be done. You cant have an organization with this much power over the PL without any checks on it because they can just always post some bullshit apology and then do nothing.
      Don77
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      • 6,028 posts | 962 
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #2: Sep 30, 2023 10:48:23 pm
      Yes. 100%. Its rife in sport and this league is no different. With the sums of money involved Its ripe for it.
      7DocUnleashed
      • Forum Erik Meijer
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      • 27 posts | 10 
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #3: Sep 30, 2023 11:32:14 pm

      100% Yes.

      When you think of the money involved in the game, and the wealth of certain backers, then unfortunately it is bound to happen.
      The PGMOL can make all the statements that they want after the fact. The dodgy refs can sit out a week.
      But at the end of the day the points are not on the board.

      And what do points make? . . . .Prizes!!!

      Why are we not talking about the rugby world cup and why is there no debate over the TMO decisions there?
      Cause the same moneys not involved.

      I thought that VAR and goal line technology was supposed to end any debate.
      Think of Henry's handball against the Irish. Think of Lampard's goal against the Germans.
      No more would anyone have to suffer such injustices.
      And yet here we are today. And still the injustice goes on.

      It can only be money.

      Frankly, Mr Shankly
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
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      • 3,891 posts | 1998 
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #4: Sep 30, 2023 11:45:58 pm
      Corrupt? As Tickle mentions in the other thread, that would place too much credit on the officials. For the likes of Simon Hooper and Darren England to be corrupt would need them to have a semblance of intelligence and competence about them. No - this was a display of such gutless fuckwittery, the sort that would make even Terry Fuckwitt blush.

      But don't worry. When the going gets tough, they'll hide behind the 'vile abuse and treatment towards refs' argument and how it's daging their mental health and family life.
      srslfc
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      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #5: Oct 01, 2023 12:06:07 am
      I'd be inclined to lean toward incompetent that corrupt.
      Harrisimo
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      • 7,614 posts | 1289 
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #6: Oct 01, 2023 12:13:09 am
      There is no conspiracy or organised corruption (There is in Political life). There is massive petty individual prejudice in football and we suffer from it more than most. Was today an example of it. Well I think we need to wait till we get the full SP.

      We might not get that but I prefer to defer untill I get a bit more info on what England actually said to the ref.
      Longy-Shops
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
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      • 2,728 posts | 600 
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #7: Oct 01, 2023 12:16:28 am
      I'd be inclined to lean toward incompetent that corrupt.
      All day long .....Poor officials not up to the required standard.....No organised conspiracy against us, it would be impossible to implement it.
      bigbob75
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      • 1,259 posts | 274 
      • Let's talk about six
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #8: Oct 01, 2023 01:49:57 am
      Yes
      Frankly, Mr Shankly
      • Forum Legend - Fagan
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      • 3,891 posts | 1998 
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #9: Oct 01, 2023 02:09:43 am
      Darren England's LinkedIn profile is a humdinger, even more so after today's events.

      https://uk.linkedin.com/in/darren-england-ab76a1bb

      "I am a reliable, focused and driven individual. I set myself high personal and professional standards and expect the same from those I work with."

      Yeah...you're none of those things Darren.
      sebby
      • Forum Billy Liddell
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      • 617 posts | 57 
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #10: Oct 01, 2023 07:06:59 am
      It’s hard to say it isn’t, after watching that, clearly refs and vars have agenda’s, Gary Neville was choosing his words very carefully so he doesn’t get sacked, but he knows there was intention there to not give that goal.
      billythered
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      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #11: Oct 01, 2023 07:19:18 am
      Thought we needed a specific thread on this.

      I'm asking the question without being 100% sure of the answer. I've generally been inclined to put bad decisions down to mistakes, sometimes incompetence and sometimes footballing bias. But what we saw tonight was genuinely strange. The VAR official clearing a bad offside decision in about 3 seconds, seemingly without drawing the lines? Er, that's just not how it's done.

      It's a measure of just how flagrantly wrong that was, that even the PGMOL lot have come out and admiited there was a major F**k up, claiming "human error" as part of their damage limitation exercise. But it's very, very hard to imagine how the VAR official can have somehow forgotten that his job is to draw the lines when checking an offside call. I mean that is what he has to do - that's it, it's not something you can just go "oops, forgot to do that, ah well I'll make the call anyway". You could wonder if maybe his technology stopped working, so he decides just to do by naked eye. But the problem there is that (a) he took about 3 seconds to give his technology the chance to work, and (b) it was still obviously onside by naked eye, so how could he manage to get it wrong even in that scenario?

      Then you add to it the fact the same VAR guy induced the ref to change his initial correct decision on Jones' yellow (but no, let's make it a red) card. And doing so by initially showing the ref a still which completely distorted the reality of Jones' totally genuine attempt to play the ball, something that was totally obvious to anybody that's ever watched football.

      The whole officiating, especially by VAR, looks like somebody really didn't want us going top of the league tonight.

      And then you look at the series of bizarre red cards we've already had this season, as Klopp introduces a seriously dangerous looking Liverpool 2.0.

      And then you start thinking back to VAR not seeing things like Everton's blatant penalty against City in our last tight title race.

      To state the obvious, there's huge money involved in footy nowadays. And, as some people insisted during the Saudi's transfer window raids, "everybody has their price". I think it is now looking more and more likely that some of our officials have had their price met.

      It may be that this has been the case for years. Maybe it's always been the case - there have been some officials who will take a bung - it wouldn't be surprising, and it's been proved it's been happening many times in other leagues - there's no real reason to think England is immune. But in the past you could put it down to refereeing error, only getting one look in real time etc. With VAR, this no longer holds, and it's just getting very hard to come with plausible explanations for some of the weird decisions. Up to now most of us have been able to believe it's just incompetence, or maybe footballing bias. But after tonight's farce, these relatively innocent explanations are getting really hard to believe.




      Hmm, incompetent, inept, maybe but I’d stop short of corruption, the PGMOL are not fit for purpose, they have admitted that human error was to blame, well hang on, wasn’t the whole idea of VAR. to prevent human error and assist the onfield referee come to a fair decision on contentious issues??

      If a VAR  assistant can’t set the offside cameras properly how can he/she make any decisions, the groundsmen cut their lines with laser precision for this very purpose so how the F**k can a VAR get it so wrong??

      I knew immediately that the offside decision was made too quickly, compounded by the replays on tv where even with the naked eye Diaz was onside,

      Then the Curtis Red card, …..in slo mo it looks bad, but so too will someone giving out a headbutt to another, or a crash test dummy getting smashed in a car wreck, it WILL look horrendous,
      What really irked me though was that VAR’s total misunderstanding of the game they officiate on, anyone who has played the game knows that if a player gets to a ball first in a 50-50 has indeed won that challenge and that should be it, Curtis won the ball, simple as that, his follow through although unavoidable contacts the opponents leg….yellow card at worse…

      If the VAR had a ex professional sat aside him/her it might have made a difference, doubtful but possible,

      That still image on the pitch side monitor was the first thing the onfield Ref saw, that image was imprinted in his mind, that undoubtedly made him see a straight red offence, which in real time ply wasn’t, that image distorted his own initial view, which ironically was the correct one,

      It’s abundantly clear that VAR in the EPL doesn’t work, why ? Because of the PGMOL insisting that they have to put their oar in and be in control, VAR works in every other sport where it is used, from Rugby Union & League, Tennis, etc

      Like I said the PGMOL are the problem, we see evidence every week in almost every game, where the PGMOL influences the VAR who will look after his mate on the pitch and subsequently when the VAR is a referee he knows his mate will have his back,
      The actual VAR operator will just do what he’s instructed to do by……the PGMOL, if you want to categorise that as corruption well that’s your opinion, to me it’s inept and not worthy and has no place in the modern game, VAR will and does work, it just needs ex professional players Sat with the VAR and not the PGMOL !!

      YNWA
      Keith Singleton
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      • Sir Lewis Hamilton
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #12: Oct 01, 2023 07:34:56 am
      Corrupt a very strong word and in the heat of the moment can see why many of you say yes. However, it’s far from corrupt, this is the best league in the world and we haven’t reached the Saudi standards just yet.

      It’s just complete fuckwits at the end of VAR and some seriously bad calls by the officials/ref on the day. There’s no way  PGMOL make a statement straight after the game if such dealings went on. Chances are some may lose their jobs over this and quite rightly.

      The VAR system is so flawed due to so many subjective decisions they leave themselves wide open. Error after error, week in week out. This ( so far ) is the worse mistake they’ve made. You lads undeniably robbed off a result.
      rossyred
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      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #13: Oct 01, 2023 07:47:22 am
      More chance of corruption when VAR wasn't here as they could hide behind the fact they didn't see anything or they thought it was offside etc. This is just blatant incompetency I am afraid
      sebby
      • Forum Billy Liddell
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      • 617 posts | 57 
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #14: Oct 01, 2023 07:58:16 am
      Corrupt a very strong word and in the heat of the moment can see why many of you say yes. However, it’s far from corrupt, this is the best league in the world and we haven’t reached the Saudi standards just yet.

      It’s just complete fuckwits at the end of VAR and some seriously bad calls by the officials/ref on the day. There’s no way  PGMOL make a statement straight after the game if such dealings went on. Chances are some may lose their jobs over this and quite rightly.

      The VAR system is so flawed due to so many subjective decisions they leave themselves wide open. Error after error, week in week out. This ( so far ) is the worse mistake they’ve made. You lads undeniably robbed off a result.

      Thing is Keith corruption is rife in sport, look at the Italian lg, Spanish lg, been going on for years, premier lg is not immune from corrupt officials. Not corruption on the levels of Italian football, but on a marginal call, they will do their best to give the decision against us, Look at the City offside goal a few weeks back, or the pen that Wolves never got, they are not mistakes, so it is hard to say there is no corruption, when you see some of the decisions given lately.
      ConzS
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      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #15: Oct 01, 2023 08:03:03 am
      I think anyone who would immediately dismiss the idea as a conspiracy has their head buried in the sand. I’m not saying there is or isn’t but we’ve seen it happen in other leagues, it’s not beyond the realms of possibility. The Premier League is a huge money-making business and where money goes, corruption/fraud often follows.

      Having said all that, I’m not 100% convinced albeit the thought has crossed my mind at times. Some say conspiracy, some say competency but I’d lean more towards individual bias rather than a concerted group effort.

      Whatever way you look at it, we were robbed tonight and the PGMOL statement doesn’t change a thing. Their excuse is a hard one to believe considering we still are yet to see any lines. Even if they had thought the onfield decision was a goal, we would have still seen lines to prove that it was not offside. The decision was made all too quickly so it makes you question whether the lines were ever drawn. Was the technology down? Who knows.

      Aside from that there were multiple other questionable (at best) decisions. The red card might divide some people but the fact the first thing they show the ref is the still image of when Jones connects is grossly misleading to how that played out. Personally don’t think that was a red card in a month of Sundays. He was off balance and as he goes to control the ball, his foot rolls over it in to the guys leg. Unfortunate yes, malicious no.

      Jota double yellow again may split people and I know not a lot of folk have sympathy for Jota. First yellow is clearly not a yellow let alone a foul. I know he had another shortly before and people might point towards accumulation, but for that to be the case, this would have had to be a foul and was not in my opinion. The next one is stupid by Jota and in isolation you can understand the yellow but considering the circumstances of the game, as well as the fact that the fouls were in quick succession, it seems very harsh.

      There were plenty other run of the mill decisions that I feel went against us but the one that stands out is when Salah wins the ball back beside their box and, as he bears down on goal, the ref blows his whistle for a foul. A great goal-scoring opportunity taken from us and for what, 2 players giving like for like in a contact sport. I like to think of Mo as a very honest player and you can tell by his reaction what he thinks of that decision.
      GERNS
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      • 12,031 posts | 1466 
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #16: Oct 01, 2023 08:18:05 am
      I don’t think it’s corruption in the sense of taking bugs, but it’s clearly corrupt by individuals wanting certain teams to win or lose.
      There’s gonna come a time when it’s so clearly evident, managers will take teams off the field of play until rank decisions like yesterdays are corrected.
      At the moment there is no alternative to getting these corrupt decisions corrected. The current response is to issue an apology at best. Then it can continue into the following fixtures with the refs/var knowing being stepped down for a game or two is the max they will receive.
      The ref, lino, and var official for yesterdays game should be thrown out permanently for total incompetence and dishonesty.
      I’m not one for vengeance, but for what this may cost us, I truly hope they are trolled until they are forced out of the game for good.
      There is no place for dishonesty and cheating in a sport with so much at stake.
      It can be for no other reason, or you’d see similar issues in all the other sports like rugby, tennis, cricket etc. Which you clearly don’t .
      If the FA don’t fire those people and reinstate the points we were cheated of, it’s time to protest nationally to get them replaced as well.
      This was not mistakes. Every incident was crystal clear. This is deliberate acts of corrupt decision making, clearly to suit their personal adgenda !
      brezipool
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      • Mon the Red Machine !
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #17: Oct 01, 2023 08:33:42 am
      At the very worst they are just very very very rubbish
      ToshackKeeganOneNil
      • Forum Sami Hyypia
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      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #18: Oct 01, 2023 08:55:25 am
      At best they are inept at worst petty prejudices , whether subconsciously or not, are leading in their decision making process. Whether we like it or not some of them will hold a grudge against our manager for last seasons outburst at the lino. Human nature then takes over. I do not for one minute believe there is a get LFC conspiracy at the FA or refs club. They also never ever have to justify their decisions on camera which makes them feel bullet proof. They can also never be criticised by clubs, players or managers which further emboldens them.
      rossyred
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      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #19: Oct 01, 2023 09:06:31 am
      Another thing people missed is why did the liner flag for offside when so tight are they not supposed to let play go on which means if they did they would have come to correct decision
      chats
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      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #20: Oct 01, 2023 09:21:46 am
      Simply incompetent

      And nothing will change until clubs go on strike
      Redangel
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      • 7,879 posts | 931 
      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #21: Oct 01, 2023 09:48:29 am
      It’s hard not to think there is some form of corruption going on, either that or gross incompetence on an industrial scale. The explanation for no lines is pathetic, VAR thought that the on field decision was to award the goal and because they agreed it was not offside they told the ref to go with the on field decision! They realised the mistake as soon as Spurs got a free kick but it was too late to do anything about it. That is rubbish they should immediately have informed the referee that a mistake had been made, the game stopped and the goal awarded! Maybe before assuming the goal had been given, VAR had just confirmed with the referee that the goal had been allowed/ disallowed rather than assume. VAR is not fit for purpose, nor are many of the referees, nothing will be done until clubs and fans come together and demand change!
      As for their apology, useless, we still don’t get the goal reinstated. Add to that the 2 dubious red cards and god knows how many yellows, and something is clearly not right. The whole lot of them involved in that game should be sacked.
      tezmac
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      Re: Is English officiating corrupt?
      Reply #22: Oct 01, 2023 09:48:53 am
      How many mistakes did the ref make... to many to be mistakes. The is an agender against Liverpool. 7 games in and 4 playets sent off. Last season 1 sent off in the entire season. BENT bas**rds

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