Peoples changing views of Rafa

As critical as i have been on thios forum about our play and some of Rafa's choices it is indisputable that he needs to stay. Someone made a comment earlier that he is a good cup coach but not good enough to win the league. This is bullshit he won the league with Valencia ahead of Real Madrid and Barcelona and is Valencias greatest coach of all time. Valencia is not a bigger club than Liverpool and the squad he achieved this with was not more superior than what we have now.
The Spanish league is not inferior to the Premier league if not it is superior although this is debatable, it is that English arrogance that "we have the best league" "we have the best players" "we have the best national team' "we,we ,we" and these views taint our expectations.

Hand on heart i have been critical of the man himself but that was out of sheer frustration, I believe he has a vision and a long term plan to bring us back to the glory days and if we let him do his job he will succeed. So the rest of you doubters F**k off and keep your hands of Rafa!

RAFA deserves 5 years at least as manager the same as Houllier was given.Most clubs would give a fortune to achieve the success rate that RAFA has had in his 1st 3 seasons. He can hardly be called a failure even if his team selections p*ss us off at times.

RAFA deserves 5 years at least as manager the same as Houllier was given.Most clubs would give a fortune to achieve the success rate that RAFA has had in his 1st 3 seasons. He can hardly be called a failure even if his team selections p*ss us off at times.

Problem is with highlighted with my lengthy post further up the thread, is that I don't think we can win the league whilst the club as a whole doesn't operate the same as the other 3 above us. It is not about our manager whoever it may be. It is about getting players of the calibre and price of Torres on a regular basis, the same way the other teams above us do. Therefore we need to generate the revenues that they do as it doesn't look like Statler & Waldorf are going to come up with the goods they promised.

I don't think giving Rafa 5 years then binning him off cause he hasn't won the title solves anything. The replacement manager will be in exactly the same position.

It is not idiotic or disloyal to question a manager in his 4th season who has been 11 points or more off top of the table every Christmas during his tenure my friend so unless you're related to Benitez you're post lacks objectivity. Liverpool are 18 years without a league title; they will be another 18 years if they give every manager 5 years to prove he CAN'T win the league.  I like Benitez, but I love Liverpool FC. Therefore we need to be professional when considering managers and forget emotional ties. Do up Liverpool fans want to win the Premier League or are we content competing for Cup? Because under Souness, Evans, Houllier and Benitez in 18 years we have actually contested the league title twice. For ONE WEEK in 4 seasons under Benitez we have been top of the table. The next week at Portsmouth he dropped our two best players and we drew.
 
So let us consider some facts;

Rafael Benitez should be relieved of his job this June - ONLY if the the club believe they are replacing him with a superior manager. There is no such canditate in British football. Therefore you look to Jose Mourinho or Marcello Lippi. Both are held in as high esteem as Benitez across world football. Indeed, Marcello Lippi is the best of the three.  But would Lippi settle into the Premiership or would it take him a few years? Has he the hunger for such a big job aged 60 having won the World Cup etc.. We cannot know the answers unless he got the job. But is he as good as Rafael Benitez? Definitely he is.

Mourinho is a controversial figure many Pool fans don't like as a man. However all that matters is whether he could bring us closer to the league title than Benitez. Personally, I am certain he would. Mourinho would not allow his team to fall so far behind by xmas. Benitez hasn't had the money of Utd or Chelsea, but there is no excuse not to beat Reading or Birmingham or Wigan home and away every season when you have players like Torres and Gerrard. Benitez complicates games which are striaghtforward. We have better players than these teams so we play our usual game and beat them easy. Save the tactical stuff for the Champions League.
But Benitez often changed our team and formation against the Premierships trash teams, like he did at Reading and against Wigan, and the result is he gets egg on his face and Liverpool gets left behind in the league table. It has happened too often.

Arsene Wenger has been a top manager at Arsenal. He has won the Premier League 3 times. However, if he went to Italy and took charge of Inter or Juventus, does the fact he won the Premiership GUARANTEE he will win Serie A? If he was 4 YEARS at Juve or Inter and had only been top of Serie A for ONE WEEK in those 4 years is there any certainty he could win the league with more time just because he won in England? No there is not.

And the same applies to Benitez. There is no certainty he is capable of winning the Premier League just because he won in Spain or can win in European footballl. He is a good manager, there is no doubt. But he has not set the Premier League alight with his football or his results. If Liverpool fans are desperate for the league title then we cannot keep a manager who has been 11 points or more behind top spot by Christmas in each of his four seasons in charge. The omens are he cannot win the Premier League with his tactics and inability to consistently beat the league's poor sides. He drops stupid points too often for no reason but his own failings.

Bring in Lippi or Mourinho in June. If they cannot be employed, give Benitex one final season. Incidentally, as regards the articles of Paul Tomkins = he has a good eye for football no question. But anyone who never criticises ANYTHING the manager does but seeks to excuse it is not an objective fan worth listening to. There are two sides to every manager. Tomkins never writes anything critical of Benitez no matter how bad we might play. Therefore he is biased towards the manager like the journalists Houllier had during his reign.  

 
 

 



 

I'd also like to show a fact to all these fans who say Wenger has built his team over TEN YEARS while Benitez has only had four years.

Here's the reality to destroy this myth; In the last 4 years since Rafa arrived at Anfield Wenger has bought, Rosicky
Hleb, Adebayor, Sagna, Alumnia, Gallas, Edwardo from his first team. He already had Fabregas, Toure, Clichy, Flamini from the current first 11 at Arsenal.

Of Benitez's usual 11 this season he already had Gerrard, Carragher, Finnan, Hyppia from the previous manager.

Therefore in the last 4 years Wenger has actually bought as many of his first 11 as Benitez. Yet Arsenal's first 11 are TWELVE points ahead of ours. And they also make our style of football look stone age as was shown at Anfield this season.

Go figure all you people who love to  blame anyone but Benitez for our LEAGUE failings. No one disputes Benitez does better than Wenger in Europe. But do we want Europe or the league title?

It is not idiotic or disloyal to question a manager in his 4th season who has been 11 points or more off top of the table every Christmas during his tenure my friend so unless you're related to Benitez you're post lacks objectivity. Liverpool are 18 years without a league title; they will be another 18 years if they give every manager 5 years to prove he CAN'T win the league.  I like Benitez, but I love Liverpool FC. Therefore we need to be professional when considering managers and forget emotional ties. Do up Liverpool fans want to win the Premier League or are we content competing for Cup? Because under Souness, Evans, Houllier and Benitez in 18 years we have actually contested the league title twice. For ONE WEEK in 4 seasons under Benitez we have been top of the table. The next week at Portsmouth he dropped our two best players and we drew.

I agree with you to a point... I like RAFA...but I love Liverpool. I really think that he's made some questionable decisions and doesn't seem to be "progressing" as far as the elusive Premiership is concerned. I reallythought this was our year to win the league...and after the good start we had I thought Rafa had finally got his plans and combinations right.

I started to raise my eyebrows after we lost to Reading...but hey you win some you lose some. The consecutive draws with Man City and Wigan just felt like a Mayweather right hook...I'm down!... but NOT OUT.

So what if the boys play well from now on and manage position 3 ? Is that really so bad? Is that still terrible if we win the FA cup...and do really well in the Champs league? Maybe this obsession with "winning" the premiership is clouding our thinking a bit.

My last word... RAFA stays...till the end of his contract...and we'll take it from there.

The Cups wins are great southafrican-red but Liverpool have to be more than a cup team. We're far too big and important a club to accept being out of the league title race every Christmas. I think there's no exuse for it but the manager failing in the league.

Also, most people think we're te 4th best team in the Premiership. Which makes us maybe the 7th or 8th best in Europe. Even when we won the Champions League in 2005, it was a fluke. We were a battling cup side with no class. That's not good enough for a magnificent club like Liverpool whose history is built not just on winning, but being the best.

We must never lose sight of our heritage and who we are. Not just a successful club, but a class club. We have won cups with Houllier and Benitez but not with any style or class of the Paisley or Dalglish eras. We need to strive to retain that level and we must never accept the way things are now. Excuses in football are endless, but truths never change. Our league form isn't good enough. It boils down to the man in charge of the team as it does with every other club.

The Cups wins are great southafrican-red but Liverpool have to be more than a cup team. We're far too big and important a club to accept being out of the league title race every Christmas. I think there's no exuse for it but the manager failing in the league.

I get you there. you have your priorities straight...you want the coach to deliver the Premiership to Anfield.

We must never lose sight of our heritage and who we are. Not just a successful club, but a class club. We have won cups with Houllier and Benitez but not with any style or class of the Paisley or Dalglish eras. We need to strive to retain that level and we must never accept the way things are now. Excuses in football are endless, but truths never change. Our league form isn't good enough. It boils down to the man in charge of the team as it does with every other club.

I also agree with you about class. That's the main reason I chose Liverpool out of all the clubs in England. I started watching in the John Barnes era (I'm young)...but I've since been taught about King Kenny Dalglish and other Pool legends. I have to say that over the years we've maintained the class...but the luck was just not on our side.

Someone said give Benitez money...or give him time. I fully agree with that. We can't afford to bring in a new coach now...cos he'll also need TIME to build the team or MONEY to buy new players. So why can't we just give that to RAFA?

Insanity : doing the same thing over and over again but expect different results. (Albert Einstein)

Here's the reality to destroy this myth; In the last 4 years since Rafa arrived at Anfield Wenger has bought, Rosicky
Hleb, Adebayor, Sagna, Alumnia, Gallas, Edwardo from his first team. He already had Fabregas, Toure, Clichy, Flamini from the current first 11 at Arsenal.

Of Benitez's usual 11 this season he already had Gerrard, Carragher, Finnan, Hyppia from the previous manager.

Therefore in the last 4 years Wenger has actually bought as many of his first 11 as Benitez. Yet Arsenal's first 11 are TWELVE points ahead of ours. And they also make our style of football look stone age as was shown at Anfield this season.

They're the mythical wonderkids that everyone speaks of! :

A lot of people bring all of them into question when comparing Benitez's signings! Just weigh up the amount of money spent on those 'for the future signings'! And they were made a lot further into Wenger's carreer at his current club than Benitez so it's not really a fair comparison.

Please, everyone read this article. It's by the legend that is Paul Tomkins and Smigger has kindly posted it in the Dugout! I'm certain a few people should take stock of his words! :

http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php/topic,5799.0.html

Time for another show of Rafalove by the away fans at Luton.

IRWT ...for a long time to come.

How is comparing the players Benitez signed in the last 4 years and the players Wenger signed in the last four years not a fair comparison? Winning youth teams means very little because maybe 1-2 of those players, if lucky, ever make it into a club's first team. There are exceptions but that's the norm.

Also, Houllier supporters also droned on about how long Ferguson took to win the league as an example of why Houllier should be given more time too, even though it became obvious in his 4th season he couldn't win the league. The way things turned out for Ferguson is the exception and not the norm. How many other manager's who didn't win the league in their first FOUR seasons can you name that went on to league glory???

Moreover, Wenger WON the league in his second season which proved he could win the English league hence Arse fans showed patience when he came on hard times. We have no proof Rafael Benitez CAN win the Premier League. Indeed, in four seasons we have no proof he can lead the Premier League table for more than a week.

How is comparing the players Benitez signed in the last 4 years and the players Wenger signed in the last four years not a fair comparison? Winning youth teams means very little because maybe 1-2 of those players, if lucky, ever make it into a club's first team. There are exceptions but that's the norm.

Also, Houllier supporters also droned on about how long Ferguson took to win the league as an example of why Houllier should be given more time too, even though it became obvious in his 4th season he couldn't win the league. The way things turned out for Ferguson is the exception and not the norm. How many other manager's who didn't win the league in their first FOUR seasons can you name that went on to league glory???

Moreover, Wenger WON the league in his second season which proved he could win the English league hence Arse fans showed patience when he came on hard times. We have no proof Rafael Benitez CAN win the Premier League. Indeed, in four seasons we have no proof he can lead the Premier League table for more than a week.

Because unlike Wenger, Rafa has only been responsible for the youth (recruitment and development) of this club since last summer - remember?

...and guess what Rafa is attracting quality young talent from all corners of europe... San Jose, Nemeth, El Zhar, Leto... the future looks bright... our future should revolve around Rafael Benitez. End of.

Please, everyone read this article. It's by the legend that is Paul Tomkins and Smigger has kindly posted it in the Dugout! I'm certain a few people should take stock of his words! :

http://www.lfcreds.com/reds/index.php/topic,5799.0.html

Read it - brilliant!!!

IN RAFA WE TRUST!

DonRafele, what have Rosicky and Hleb and Adebayor got to do with youth teams? They were bought by Wenger in the last few season directly for the first 11. Like Benitez has signed players for the last FOUR years for the first 11. It's nothing to do with the youth teams.

And have you personally decided Benitez is staying at Liverpool so that's the end of it? You must be Tom Hicks or George Gillett then??   

Like all of Paul Tomkins material about Liverpool there's a lot of intelligent truth in it and a lot of personal bias. Many fans see the realities of the manager's failure in the league so as Einstein said, southafricanred, keep throwing money at the same manager to make the same mistakes is insanity.

Luckily David Moores, the man who came up the joint management lunacy, isn't around anymore and the Americans won't be so slow to wield the sword.

How is comparing the players Benitez signed in the last 4 years and the players Wenger signed in the last four years not a fair comparison? Winning youth teams means very little because maybe 1-2 of those players, if lucky, ever make it into a club's first team. There are exceptions but that's the norm.

Because as Donrafael said, Benitez has only been buying youth players since last season. Any prior to that were not under his control, it was an entirely different scouting system.

Also, Houllier supporters also droned on about how long Ferguson took to win the league as an example of why Houllier should be given more time too, even though it became obvious in his 4th season he couldn't win the league. The way things turned out for Ferguson is the exception and not the norm. How many other manager's who didn't win the league in their first FOUR seasons can you name that went on to league glory???

In the case of Houllier, it was blazingly apparent that his signings were becoming increasingly sub-standard in comparison to some of the players he brought in earlier. Plus Benitez, in his first three completed seasons, has continued to take us forward, finishing 5th, 3rd and 3rd with cups and major finals thrown into the mix. His second season he racked up a points tally that would have won us the league the season before. And, in two of his first three seasons, he has finished higher than Arsene Wenger in the Premiership.  

What youth players are you talking about? The Arsenal players Wenger has bought that I named - Hleb, Rosicky, Sagna, Adebator, Alumina and Gallas -  never played in the youth team of Arsenal!!  Yet they're winning the legue while Rafa's acquisitions are not. Even though on paper you might say we are better, why are we 12 points behind?

Rafael Benitez has led the Premier League table for one measly week. Wenger has led it longer this season alone than Benitez in 4 seasons so forget about talking about progression and 3rd place finishes because that sounds like an Spurs or Everton rather than a Liverpool supporter.

How often has Rafa been 1st during the seasons is all you need to ask?

Luckily David Moores, the man who came up the joint management lunacy, isn't around anymore and the Americans won't be so slow to wield the sword.

The word bollocks comes to mind.

The americans and judas-Parry should watch their steps - this is actually OUR club and we will not have it fu**ed with... no matter how much some of our irrational win-now-at-all-costs glory merchant "supporters" demand it.

I want Liverpool to win as much as the next man, but to think Rafa has not moved the club forward and will - given the time - (even more important than the money given the young talent HE has attracted THIS season) - continue to do so for many more years. Yes he has made some mistakes of late, but the amount of hard work and dedication this man has given this club deserves more time, patience and large doses of love/respect.

What youth players are you talking about? The Arsenal players Wenger has bought that I named - Hleb, Rosicky, Sagna, Adebator, Alumina and Gallas -  never played in the youth team of Arsenal!!  Yet they're winning the legue while Rafa's acquisitions are not. Even though on paper you might say we are better, why are we 12 points behind?

Rafael Benitez has led the Premier League table for one measly week. Wenger has led it longer this season alone than Benitez in 4 seasons so forget about talking about progression and 3rd place finishes because that sounds like an Spurs or Everton rather than a Liverpool supporter.

How often has Rafa been 1st during the seasons is all you need to ask?

How many of those play cup competitions, Wenger has TWO talented teams/squads to pick from - the rest made up of his youth policy coming to fruition.

I suggest you think through your criticisms before spouting negativity about Rafa and not comparing apples for apples when contrasting us to the Arse...

Rafael Benitez has led the Premier League table for one measly week. Wenger has led it longer this season alone than Benitez in 4 seasons so forget about talking about progression and 3rd place finishes because that sounds like an Spurs or Everton rather than a Liverpool supporter.

Do us a favour! How can you say that being satisfied with progression from a new manager, finishing in places that Everton and Spurs haven't even got near since the 80's or 90's makes us sound like them?

Are you an Arsenal fan? Seriously? As I'm doubting you're a true Red, as you're adamant on proving Wenger a better manager. The man's been at Arsenal for donkey's years now! Okay he won the league in his second season! Back then, Blackburn won the league too! Does that not indicate something to you?

Rafa has unquestionably moved the club forward. Two Champions League finals in 3 years is a superb achievement.

But that doesn't mean he's the man to carry us over the final hurdle DonRafael. Blind loyalty which makes some fans irrational  does the club no good as we seen with Houllier's supporters. They believed in him like some believe in Benitez. It's looking more and more clear now that Rafa isn't going to win the title. Becoming attached to one man is madness at a football club unless it's an icon like Shankly, Paisley or Dalglish who really earned their iconic status. Benitez hasn't got that stature at Liverpool so any real supporter will worry solely about the club not the guy in charge.



 

How often has Rafa been 1st during the seasons is all you need to ask?

Ever thought about supporting Chavski... might be a bit more suited to your win at all costs expectations...

Progress is not overnight... Rafa took on a club that was dis-organised from top to botton and is shaping a club for the next generation of supporters.

If we would have won the last two games would you be so negative about the strategic, 5 year?, transition he is mastering?

I rest my case.

If my aunty had balls she'd be my Uncle

You seem incapble of realising, or accepting, that Wenger's first 11 in the LEAGUE has largely been BOUGHT since Benitez arrived and yet they are top of the table while we're 12 points off. How blind and idiotic do fans have to be to see something isn't right when you're blown out of the league race by Christmas every seasom?

Liverpool haven't even contested a league in how many years and yet you're on about patience? Little wonder it's 18 years and counting if after four years of the same guy failing to even reach top of thre table for a a fortnight we have the Rafa brigade, like the Houllier brigade before them.  :'(