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      Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread

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      solodee
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #414: Mar 25, 2008 12:05:24 pm
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/football.html?in_article_id=544550&in_page_id=1779&ito=newsnow

      Javier Mascherano is facing a three-match ban for his sending off at Manchester United, with the FA set to charge him with improper misconduct.

      The Argentinian international is likely to have his mandatory one-game suspension for getting two yellow cards extended because of his refusal to leave the field after referee Steve Bennett's decision.
      ________________________ ______________________

      This is Ridiculous! FA looks set to stack the odds against LFC. Time for Alonso & Lucas  to start earning their huge salaries.
      Dadorious
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #415: Mar 25, 2008 12:12:10 pm
      Neilh1205 I swear I do not recall you posting when we won any of our last seven games. If you are going to post sh*te like "we are simply just not good enough" then justify it with bit more clarity than "ownership limbo" We got beat 3-0 by an inform team and the best team in England atm.Had the game being played with 11 men on each side for 90 minutes the scoreline would not have been as convincing.

      solodee
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #416: Mar 25, 2008 12:28:11 pm
      http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2008/03/25/rafa-benitez-wants-keith-hackett-talks-over-javier-mascherano-red-card-100252-20670178/

      RAFA BENITEZ is to seek talks with referees chief Keith Hackett over the sending off of Javier Mascherano against Manchester United.
      Mascherano was today expected to be slapped with a three-match ban by the FA for his refusal to leave the pitch after being dismissed by Steve Bennett.
      The Argentinian picked up an automatic one-game ban for the two yellow cards he received on Sunday and he is now likely to be hit with a further two game suspension which would mean as well as missing this weekendā€™s derby, he would also be ruled out of forthcoming fixtures against Arsenal and Blackburn.
      But should Mascherano request a personal hearing, there is a possibility that any such ban would be delayed.
      Benitez is now keen to enter into a dialogue with Hackett in a bid to find ā€œa solutionā€ to the problems which occurred at Old Trafford.
      He said: ā€œI would like to speak to Keith Hackett because it is important that we find a solution.
      ā€œAt Liverpool, we respect the game, we respect the rules and we respect the referee, and it is important to remember that Mascherano was the first Liverpool player to be sent off in the league this season.ā€
      John Arne Riise believes his team-mateā€™s emotions boiled over because of his passion for the club. But backed him to learn from the experience.
      He said: I don't know what was said (between Mascherano and Bennett) but I feel that the referee should have called Steven Gerrard to him before this.
      ā€œMascherano boiled over, but he will learn from this.
      ā€œHe is an intense player who loves the club and loves to win, therefore he probably got a little too hot in that situation.ā€
      Meanwhile, Fernando Torres is likely to be fit to play for Spain in tomorrow nightā€™s friendly against Italy despite picking up a number of knocks against United.
      Liverpoolā€™s top scorer underwent a scan yesterday which revealed several minor injuries to his legs and ribs, but none are thought to be serious enough to keep him out of action.
      donrafael
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #417: Mar 25, 2008 12:45:08 pm
      I hope Masch doesn't get 3 games, but I have a feeling he will be made a scape-goat.

      If he does get 3 matches, I would call for video evidence to be used against Cashley Cole too... why not?

      IRWT to sort out another off-field mess.... FA blazers, Hicks, Parry... does this man not have enough on his plate?
      neilh2105
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #418: Mar 25, 2008 03:34:17 pm
      Neilh1205 I swear I do not recall you posting when we won any of our last seven games. If you are going to post sh*te like "we are simply just not good enough" then justify it with bit more clarity than "ownership limbo" We got beat 3-0 by an inform team and the best team in England atm.Had the game being played with 11 men on each side for 90 minutes the scoreline would not have been as convincing.



      Right you! like that is it?

      We are utter sh*te when we come up against the Mancs!
      Over the last three or so season the have consistently humiliated us, and all we do after games is analyse and make excuses,
      Its not like we have been beating them over the last couple of seasons and Sundays game was a fluke, we got annihilated 3 - 0 as if I need to remind you! and don't use the ten men one on me, please
      My problem is that I use games against Manu as my measure as to just how we are progressing as a team, if we are ever going to mount a serious challenge for the prem then we should be taking at least 4 points a seasons of the Mancs, consistently.
      I work away from Liverpool and listen to alot of knowledgeable work colleagues as to what they thought of the game, people who don't support English football at all, and the phrases "different class" "streets ahead" and "you didn't really think you could win" come out of their mouths, I could go on and on.
      If you can take any positives from that preformance on Sunday then I need to see your optician!
      If we had lost 1 nil then I could live with that, if not be very disappointed, but 3 - 0 come on mate I ask you, if you can put a spin on that debacle then you should be working in Downing Street!
      If we do well in the CL and meet the Mancs again, then quite honestly mate do you think we could beat them? cause you only have to look at Sundays preformance and you've got your answer.
      I can't begin to tell you how f***in depressed I am!! cause today REALITY is sinking in!!!!!
      I'm sick to the back teeth of excuses when it comes to the f***in Mancs.
      I f***in HATE BEING IN THEIR SHADOW
      « Last Edit: Mar 25, 2008 04:00:59 pm by neilh2105 »
      bartman49
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #419: Mar 25, 2008 03:55:21 pm
      Mascha said sorry to his team mates and that should have put an end to it but the FA in their stupidity want to make a 1 game ban into 3, talk about kicking a guy on the floor and all because Cole got away with a leg breaker and well you all seen it and so it's pick on the next in line who just happens to be one of our best players. Justice done,NO...
      donrafael
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #420: Mar 25, 2008 04:13:12 pm
      We have a good record with refs, why the hell we have to be picked on when Chavski, Manure and Arsenal put this behaviour in their playing staff employee manual is beyond me...

      Hopefully fair thinking will prevail - but I don't it will when the FA are concerned.
      neilh2105
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #421: Mar 25, 2008 04:34:10 pm
      Mascha said sorry to his team mates and that should have put an end to it but the FA in their stupidity want to make a 1 game ban into 3, talk about kicking a guy on the floor and all because Cole got away with a leg breaker and well you all seen it and so it's pick on the next in line who just happens to be one of our best players. Justice done,NO...
      Mascherano shouldn't have be mixin it with the ref especially after last weeks carry on with Cole, the FA were bound to dig somebody out, and everybody knows how they love to do it to us.
      With all that said Mascherano should be far more professional and not locking horns with the ref in any game and specially in a game like Sundays, he should let his feet do the talkin, god knows he's paid enough  TBH I'm f***in discusted with him!
      He should have wipped his mouth walk away and scored a goal, cause he's good enough, The Mancs players must have been laugh their cocks off at him, idiot.
      Putting the outcome of a game like that in jeopardy is simple unacceptable!
      I hope he has learnt this leason!
      Brown LFC
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #422: Mar 25, 2008 04:47:43 pm
      Bit of a defeatist attitude there mate.

      Rafa has shown his quality since he first arrived here. He isn't just going to go win the league in a season or two is he. He will need time to make his own team. Theres still dead wood players left here from when houiller was in charge. Im sure once Rafa has a whole squad of his own then we"ll be up there in the coming few seasons fighting for the title. Just like it took Ferguson and Wenger a while to sort out a squad capable of fighting for the title every year.
      ...
      I am sorry, you just can not compare Rafa with Ferguson and Wenger, Rafa is a very negative manager, he lacks consistency, and his team reflects that all the time, he is not different to Houlier, they both tends to stick to some bazaar team selection and prefer to use useless players the likes of Kuyt, Voronin ( when he is fit), Kewell, and others, in stead of Crouch and Bable who both should be a regular in the team, our squad is littered with very average or below average players!!!!!!!!!!

      How do expect a manager of this kind, is to produce a consistant winning team, Rafa might win the odd cup games, but not the league!!!. it is beyond him.
      neilh2105
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #423: Mar 25, 2008 04:52:45 pm
      ...
      I am sorry, you just can not compare Rafa with Ferguson and Wenger, Rafa is a very negative manager, he lacks consistency, and his team reflects that all the time, he is not different to Houlier, they both tends to stick to some bazaar team selection and prefer to use useless players the likes of Kuyt, Voronin ( when he is fit), Kewell, and others, in stead of Crouch and Bable who both should be a regular in the team, our squad is littered with very average or below average players!!!!!!!!!!

      How do expect a manager of this kind, is to produce a consistant winning team, Rafa might win the odd cup games, but not the league!!!. it is beyond him.

      So I think I can gleen from your tone that you think Rafa should go?
      I know I've taken the bait here, but arn't we going slightly off topic here? :ontopic:
      Brown LFC
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #424: Mar 25, 2008 05:06:03 pm
      I agree to some extent with your post, though this is more how I felt yesterday in the heat of the moment than after a good night's sleep! ;)

      I don't think Benitez is deliberately preparing the team to be sloppy, but I do feel that they lack confidence in themselves going into certain matches (excluding European ones for some reason), and this is an issue that needs addressing before we're going to bring the title back home. Maybe is because after Istnbul, our players know they are capable of beating anyone in Europe and that no match is ever out of our reach until the final whistle blows. What we need to do is translate this belief into the premier league matches.

      I honestly believe that if we face Man Utd in the Champs League we will beat them, but are the players going to have to win the league miraculously for us to have faith in our ability? There's no problem having respect for the opponent, but we can't play the big teams on their terms, we have to go at them and impose ourselves, else we aren't going to be winning at Old Trafford for a long time.

      I still think rafa is the man to bring us the title though, his problem is that his hands have been tied in the transfer market for too long, and when we come up against a team that can afford to have the likes of Tevez on the bench for a match like this we are far behind them.

      I do understand your point, and I agree with you that Rafa can beat Man Utd in cup games, but can not match or out pace them in the league, or Arsenal not even Chelsea. Rafa's strategy over the whole season is very negative, to many rotation, buying and using too many useless players for top money the like of Kuyt,leto,Aurelio, etc, and he always use useless players week in week out for the sake of balance of the team, Oh, yes just to fulfill his negative tactic. Can you tell me why does he use Kuyt (he wouldn't get in any of the top 6 first teams) in stead of Crouch, Babel, and he never replace him during the match, but he will replace the good players with useless one!!!!!, Do you want to tell me Rafa is a top manager!!!!!. no mate

      ayrton77
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #425: Mar 25, 2008 05:06:24 pm
      Right you! like that is it?

      We are utter sh*te when we come up against the Mancs!
      Over the last three or so season the have consistently humiliated us, and all we do after games is analyse and make excuses,
      Its not like we have been beating them over the last couple of seasons and Sundays game was a fluke, we got annihilated 3 - 0 as if I need to remind you! and don't use the ten men one on me, please
      My problem is that I use games against Manu as my measure as to just how we are progressing as a team, if we are ever going to mount a serious challenge for the prem then we should be taking at least 4 points a seasons of the Mancs, consistently.
      I work away from Liverpool and listen to alot of knowledgeable work colleagues as to what they thought of the game, people who don't support English football at all, and the phrases "different class" "streets ahead" and "you didn't really think you could win" come out of their mouths, I could go on and on.
      If you can take any positives from that preformance on Sunday then I need to see your optician!
      If we had lost 1 nil then I could live with that, if not be very disappointed, but 3 - 0 come on mate I ask you, if you can put a spin on that debacle then you should be working in Downing Street!
      If we do well in the CL and meet the Mancs again, then quite honestly mate do you think we could beat them? cause you only have to look at Sundays preformance and you've got your answer.
      I can't begin to tell you how f***in depressed I am!! cause today REALITY is sinking in!!!!!
      I'm sick to the back teeth of excuses when it comes to the f***in Mancs.
      I f***in HATE BEING IN THEIR SHADOW

      I would like to start by saying that I'm as gutted about the result Sunday as you are. But I don't think there are many of us whose post match comments include making excuses for a poor performance, what I try to do is try to figure out what went wrong, who was responsible, what we need to change to improve, and where the differences are between them and us. I don't want to throw my hands up and the air and scream that we are worse than them, because that's just too simple.

      I don't think that until Mascherano was sent off they particularly outplayed us. They had quite a lot of possession and very pretty agressive, but they were the home team and are top of the league, so that's to be expected. I felt we held our own and were reasonably positive. Their first goal was a fluke, a lucky (non) header combined with a defensive misunderstanding, something that needs to be worked on off the pitch, but certainly not an act of class. I think that as they had had lots of possession, when the goal went in it seemed as though they were all over us whilst it wasn't quite like that in reality.

      After the sending off (which has been discussed enough I'm not going to go into it) it's obvious they had the best of the chances and the possession, they had more players so it's pretty logical the match turned this way, I don't think it's making excuses. My problem with the second half was that after about an hour, and we were starting to have a couple of chances on the counter, I felt rafa needed to change maybe two players to compensate for the tired legs on our side from the effort we were putting in to keep up. I felt he should have put in Crouch as a target man, not something I usually want be with a man down it's a better way of gaining terrain quickly.

      Other "excuses" for why we've been behind them these past few seasons - the investment in the squad: we all know Rafa doesn't have money to throw around like they do. This has been going on for four years, how do you realistically expect our squad to be of the same quality as theirs? If and when we have funds such as theirs, then add a couple of years for the team to bond, only then can you make an unbiased comparison of the two teams IMO.

      You say that you could live with a 1-0? Well I think that if Mascherano wasn't sent off that could have been the result... or maybe 1-1, or better, who knows. In reality they only finished us due to tired legs and some defensive misunderstandings, which definitely need sorting out and the sooner the better. As for what your Manc mates have to say - F**k them. Have faith in Rafa, and that if DIC take over and he has the means, he will build us a squad that will outclass the Scum and in years to come it will be you rubbing your mates noses in it, not them.

      I have a lot of respect for you Neilh2105, and I certainly aren't trying to have a go at you or make excuses, I'm just putting things the way I see them.
      neilh2105
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #426: Mar 25, 2008 05:52:59 pm
      I would like to start by saying that I'm as gutted about the result Sunday as you are. But I don't think there are many of us whose post match comments include making excuses for a poor performance, what I try to do is try to figure out what went wrong, who was responsible, what we need to change to improve, and where the differences are between them and us. I don't want to throw my hands up and the air and scream that we are worse than them, because that's just too simple.

      I don't think that until Mascherano was sent off they particularly outplayed us. They had quite a lot of possession and very pretty agressive, but they were the home team and are top of the league, so that's to be expected. I felt we held our own and were reasonably positive. Their first goal was a fluke, a lucky (non) header combined with a defensive misunderstanding, something that needs to be worked on off the pitch, but certainly not an act of class. I think that as they had had lots of possession, when the goal went in it seemed as though they were all over us whilst it wasn't quite like that in reality.

      After the sending off (which has been discussed enough I'm not going to go into it) it's obvious they had the best of the chances and the possession, they had more players so it's pretty logical the match turned this way, I don't think it's making excuses. My problem with the second half was that after about an hour, and we were starting to have a couple of chances on the counter, I felt rafa needed to change maybe two players to compensate for the tired legs on our side from the effort we were putting in to keep up. I felt he should have put in Crouch as a target man, not something I usually want be with a man down it's a better way of gaining terrain quickly.

      Other "excuses" for why we've been behind them these past few seasons - the investment in the squad: we all know Rafa doesn't have money to throw around like they do. This has been going on for four years, how do you realistically expect our squad to be of the same quality as theirs? If and when we have funds such as theirs, then add a couple of years for the team to bond, only then can you make an unbiased comparison of the two teams IMO.

      You say that you could live with a 1-0? Well I think that if Mascherano wasn't sent off that could have been the result... or maybe 1-1, or better, who knows. In reality they only finished us due to tired legs and some defensive misunderstandings, which definitely need sorting out and the sooner the better. As for what your Manc mates have to say - F**k them. Have faith in Rafa, and that if DIC take over and he has the means, he will build us a squad that will outclass the Scum and in years to come it will be you rubbing your mates noses in it, not them.

      I have a lot of respect for you Neilh2105, and I certainly aren't trying to have a go at you or make excuses, I'm just putting things the way I see them.

      Thanks for the reply mate.
      Ive read your post with interest!
      It does as you suspected, come across as a catalogue of excuses!
      If this, if that, and the old lemon "next season" bad luck here, fluky goal there, Ive heard it all before!!
      If my auntie had bollocks she'd have been my uncle!!
      As for buying new players I honestly think that the squad we have is good enough, and Rafa needs to look long and hard at his management style.
      Manu consistently get 85% out of their players and we get between 70-80% if were lucky, and there in lies the difference as I see it.
      He's trying to do everything himself, he needs another Pako, an arse wiper for the squad, a big brother, cause Rafa can come over as a tad distant to say the very least
      That's one of the problems, there are many others.
      One thing that you never mentioned, and I think it is had a greater impact on the clubs moral than anybody cares to admit, and that the ownership/Klinnsman thing, cause if Rafa had have gone then there were a good few Spanish players going to follow! The whole club from top to bottom was at an extremely low ebb then!
      Look, you've got me on excuses now!

      IRWT
      IDIC WE PRAY
      WALK ON
      ayrton77
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #427: Mar 25, 2008 05:53:40 pm
      I do understand your point, and I agree with you that Rafa can beat Man Utd in cup games, but can not match or out pace them in the league, or Arsenal not even Chelsea. Rafa's strategy over the whole season is very negative, to many rotation, buying and using too many useless players for top money the like of Kuyt,leto,Aurelio, etc, and he always use useless players week in week out for the sake of balance of the team, Oh, yes just to fulfill his negative tactic. Can you tell me why does he use Kuyt (he wouldn't get in any of the top 6 first teams) in stead of Crouch, Babel, and he never replace him during the match, but he will replace the good players with useless one!!!!!, Do you want to tell me Rafa is a top manager!!!!!. no mate

      You're entitled to your opinion mate, if you think Rafa isn't good enough as manager then I'm not going to be able to change your mind. My point is the same as in my previous post - he hasn't had as much time to build his squad as Ferguson and Wenger have had, he's only been here four seasons. And he hasn't had the money that Man Utd and Chelsea have had for a long time. IMO he hasn't been buying "useless" players, he has been buying the players he could do with his budget, which he doesn't decide.

      I don't think any of us honestly think the he would have bought these same players if he had a blank chequebook. What he has done if fill the holes we had by buying quite lot of players worth not too much, and think he has achieved a hell of a with them. Now his squad is a decent size he can (only now) begin to pick and choose, as he only needs to buy one or two men in each transfer window.

      I don't think for one minute the team he fields every week is the finished job, I think he is still building and we need patience and trust in him that one day the final result will be there. We have a lot of promising young talent, and I am sure there will be more to come. I do reckon Rafa is a top manager, and hope he will be here to stay, as consistency is the only way forward if you don't have shitloads of money, which at the moment we don't. We have shitloads of debt.
      ayrton77
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #428: Mar 25, 2008 06:13:44 pm
      Thanks for the reply mate.
      Ive read your post with interest!
      It does as you suspected, come across as a catalogue of excuses!
      If this, if that, and the old lemon "next season" bad luck here, fluky goal there, Ive heard it all before!!
      If my auntie had bollocks she'd have been my uncle!!
      As for buying new players I honestly think that the squad we have is good enough, and Rafa needs to look long and hard at his management style.
      Manu consistently get 85% out of their players and we get between 70-80% if were lucky, and there in lies the difference as I see it.
      He's trying to do everything himself, he needs another Pako, an arse wiper for the squad, a big brother, cause Rafa can come over as a tad distant to say the very least
      That's one of the problems, there are many others.
      One thing that you never mentioned, and I think it is had a greater impact on the clubs moral than anybody cares to admit, and that the ownership/Klinnsman thing, cause if Rafa had have gone then there were a good few Spanish players going to follow! The whole club from top to bottom was at an extremely low ebb then!
      Look, you've got me on excuses now!

      IRWT
      IDIC WE PRAY
      WALK ON

      I've highlighted a couple of bits of your post that I think are bang on. The thing is I made the same point as you about the mentality of the players during this match earlier in the thread, so didn't want to repeat myself. It's something that needs sorting, but IMO won't be until the ownership issues are sorted out first. Gerrard stated in the press that it was affecting the players behind the scenes, it can't be easy for the players to be "walking on eggshells" all the time. Still, maybe Rafa could have us doing a pre-match "haka" or something!  :D

      I agree Rafa needs an assistant too. The thing is he's been slated, written-off and under-mined in the press for months. Maybe he has a point to prove that "he's the man" and that he is capable of running the club, I don't know. I'm not saying he's perfect, he has flaws, he's human after all. But I think he should be here for a long time, because when things settle down and he is finally confortable again in his role, I think he will bring back the glory days for Liverpool.

      And you don't sound to be making excuses to me mate, they more sound like facts to me!  ;)
      maxextz
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #429: Mar 25, 2008 07:42:51 pm
      for gods sake stop bikering and get over it....it will be forgotten about when we win our next game,  :f_steam:
      EddieC
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #430: Mar 25, 2008 07:47:52 pm
      for gods sake stop bikering and get over it....it will be forgotten about when we win our next game,  :f_steam:

      There's a good discussion going on here, if that's not to your taste then don't read the thread.
      albertdock
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #431: Mar 25, 2008 08:07:47 pm
      for gods sake stop bikering and get over it....it will be forgotten about when we win our next game,  :f_steam:
      What sort of supporter are you? get over 3-0 drubbing from Manu!
      There's a good discussion going on here, if that's not to your taste then don't read the thread.
      Hear Hear
      EddieC
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #432: Mar 25, 2008 08:23:45 pm
      for gods sake stop bikering and get over it....it will be forgotten about when we win our next game,  :f_steam:



      Neilh2105, Ayrton77 & gang doing what they do best - Bikering ;D
      maxextz
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #433: Mar 25, 2008 09:45:34 pm
      What sort of supporter are you? get over 3-0 drubbing from Manu!Hear Hear
      life goes on if not then top yourself... they have beat us 5 times so far in the league untill last sunday nobody said a word about grow up and move on.
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #434: Mar 25, 2008 09:55:27 pm
      It was a very bad game but the best thing to do is learn from the mistakes and try to forget about the bad points. We shall beat Everton and Arsenal (all 3 times) and then no-one will even remember the United defeat  ;)

      I.R.W.T
      Dadorious
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #435: Mar 25, 2008 11:37:29 pm
      Ayrton mate you have said everything spot on so there is no need for me to deliberate further.
      To the fellow that is saying Rafa is not a good manager nor good as Rudolf the Red Nose and Wenger mate pull your head out of your ass seriously. This has been debated and done to death, look through some old threads dating back to January or so and you will see everyone's opinions on it.
      DOBBS83
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      Re: Man Utd V Liverpool - Match Thread
      Reply #436: Mar 25, 2008 11:57:09 pm
      TOMKINS: IT'S A GAP, NOT A GULF
      Paul Tomkins 25 March 2008 



      Whatever happened at Old Trafford, I had already decided that Liverpool are behind Manchester United in terms of talent but closing the gap. 


      These fixtures tend to take on an all-defining power, but ultimately it's just one game. And one-off games involve luck, the kind Liverpool haven't done well enough at Old Trafford to deserve in recent years, but which has been unfairly lacking in recent home games against United. United also used to win these games when Liverpool were the best side in the world, while the Reds regularly beat United when they were winning titles at the start of the new millennium, so it's important to put them into perspective.
       
      United, based on the league table, were always going to still be the better team regardless, but the gap is closing in a season where United have actually considerably strengthened (adding Ā£80m-worth of talent), when their squad was already far more expensive than Liverpool's to start with.
       
      The result from Old Trafford, whatever it would be, would only sway my opinion a few percent either way: a draw, and we're where I thought; a win, and we're perhaps 5% ahead; a defeat, and maybe 5% behind. But performance, and ability to deserve more at Old Trafford, would also be important. In the end, maybe that was hardest to judge.
       
      I hadn't reckoned with the Ashley Cole factor, and refs cracking down on any form of dissent following his bad foul and barracking of the ref last week. It's ironic that Liverpool hardly ever harass the referee, and rarely get players sent off, and yet pay the price of a clampdown while teams who misbehave more frequently continue to get away with it. Cole's tackle and reaction were far worse, but he got away with it. Ferguson, meanwhile, had put the referee under more pressure before the match.
       
      Mascherano was clearly treading a tightrope, and while I understand his frustration at being booked for his first tackle while United players were only getting warnings, he should have kept out of things having already been cautioned and can't have too many complaints.
       
      However, if referees are going to give one team all the bookings, and award nonsensical yellow cards, trouble will follow. Torres was being fouled and fouled again, by three United players in three seconds, and when he asked the ref about it, he got booked. Ludicrous, utterly ludicrous. Some refs have admitted letting Wayne Rooney swear at them 20 times or more in a match, and then Mascherano gets sent off for plain dissent following Torres' unfair booking. Where's the consistency?
       
      Ten-man Liverpool showed character in the middle of the second half, and that's encouraging. But when United can bring on Ā£60m-worth of talent (Tevez valued at Ā£30m, even if only on loan initially), you can see the disparity in resources as they turned the screw in the last ten minutes. This when Ferguson's starting team already cost Ā£30m more than Benitez's.
       
      Unfortunately, it all coincided with Pepe Reina experiencing probably his most mixed game for the club - three wonderful saves, but also a couple of costly mistakes. I still think he's the best keeper in the country, but part of United's success has been down to landing Van der Sar after years with dodgy keepers. Can they replace their ageing Dutchman when the time comes?
       
      Much of the constant criticism of Benitez has been that he has never appeared to know what his best team is. I've never seen this as essential in the modern age, when the squad takes on more significance. Isn't it better to have two equally good players competing for one position, where you can't choose your best XI, than one good and one bad, where you easily can?
       
      Ideally you'd want a great player in the mix, and few teams have two of those competing for the same spot. One is hard enough to come by, let alone two.
       
      When trying to work out United's strongest team, who are their best midfielders? Ronaldo, Giggs, Scholes, Anderson, Nani, Hargreaves, Carrick and Fletcher are those who appear most. You could make a strong case for the inclusion of the first seven names in particular, but only four can start at once. Ferguson chops and changes them, and 'rotates' heavily, all without criticism, even when they lose.
       
      If anything, the midfield situation is clearer at Liverpool, particularly since Gerrard was moved into a more advanced role (something Ronaldo also does for United from time to time). The most obvious choices for the two deeper midfielders are Mascherano and Alonso. Lucas is an excellent player for his age, and a handy option at this stage of his career, but is still learning when compared with the other two.
       
      The left-wing role is being nailed down by the exciting Babel, who, like Lucas, is also learning. Babel, however, has the ability to be devastating, and that will only increase with experience of the league and maturity. He's improving, but there's more to come. He's at the stage Ronaldo was two or three years ago.
       
      It's easy to say 'why didn't Benitez do all this at the start of the season', but that misses the point. First of all, Alonso was injured. That left Lucas, who was not ready to be a regular at that stage, and Sissoko, who had lost his confidence. So Gerrard played in a traditional midfield role; and even had he played in his current position, there's nothing to say the understanding with Torres back then would have been as strong as it is now.
       
      Also, Babel wasn't ready to be as consistent; he was struggling to adapt to the pace of the game, and the frequency of matches. It's very hard for a manager expected to challenge for the title to bed in new players straight into the starting XI; there's no patience from outside with regard to mistakes while the adaptation takes place.
       
      I feel that Liverpool are now where United were in 2006. Although the Reds finished just one point behind United that season, Ferguson's project was more advanced. He was about to have Ronaldo and Rooney come of age; whereas Liverpool were never going to get that dramatic improvement from the ageing Fowler and Morientes, while Cisse's pace on the wing had its limitations - he was never going to improve in the way Babel, a clever player, has the potential to.
       
      In 2005/06, Benitez had some new key elements in place - Reina, Agger, Alonso - but since then he's added Torres, Babel, Mascherano, Lucas, Arbeloa, Skrtel, Aurelio and Benayoun, to name just a few. This collection of players is now starting to blend, but it can improve markedly given the age of the team and its time spent together.
       
      Also, United invested even more heavily than Liverpool last summer, building from a position of strength - although they paid around Ā£50m, they added Ā£80m of talent in just four players last summer. How do you close a gap in those circumstances?
       
      In Torres and Gerrard, the Reds have a combination to build success around, in the manner United did with Rooney and Ronaldo, before adding a third axis in Tevez. Of course, as soon as Liverpool found the prolific striker everyone said the club lacked, the focus switched to 'Liverpool rely too much on Torres'. Crazy.
       
      It's important that Liverpool build on the formula the manager has created. But an avoidance of injuries to key players next season will be crucial; it is to any team. It's not possible to say how much a team relies on one player simply by removing their goals from the equation; after all, if they weren't playing, someone else would be. However, I find it hard to believe United would be doing anywhere near as well had Ronaldo suffered a serious injury in August.
       
      Man-for-man, there's not a massive gulf between the two clubs' strongest XIs. But it's about the squad, too. Also, a team is not just a collection of individuals; it's how they gel together, and how much they exceed the sum of their parts. United have the advantage in that sense, having been together longer. They break with such pace and understanding, and that hasn't happened overnight. Liverpool, with Gerrard, Torres and Babel forming a new super-quick attack, are capable of matching them - but in time.
       
      They also have players with league-winning experience from 2003 and before, which helped underpin their recent success. Liverpool are closing the gap in terms of team cohesion and unity, but the psychology of two decades without a league title will always be the hardest barrier to overcome.
       
      A fit Agger, and Liverpool would almost certainly have been closer to the top three. He was missed in a number of home games in particular. Alonso was also missed. I don't think United had to get by without any key first-choice players for long periods this season, bar Gary Neville, who is not crucial to their cause.
       
      Of course, a lot depends on how each of the big teams strengthen over the summer, and how quickly the new additions settle. I just feel that, despite the setback, Benitez is now really close to the side he wants. Will that be enough? With United building upon key elements Ferguson had put in place while Rafa was still at Valencia, it'll be hard. But hopefully not impossible. Time will tell...





      I really enjoy Tompkins column, he covers a lot of ground. After the game i decided i had an anger problem which is one of the reasons why i didn't come on-line to discuss the game, i dribbled sh*t while it was on but i was drunk. Anyway after reading the posts of everyone its clear that we are all discusted by what happened over the weekend and there are mainly 2 views; 1) we played like we were scared of united or shaky if that sounds nicer, 2) we were hard done by by the ref.
      In my opinion we didn't see the liverpool that we had been seeing recently, something was different about them even though we looked to have the upper hand in the build up to the game and we were all thinking from recent performances of both teams that this would be the game where we would win at old trafford. Even my cousin (manc fan) was shitting himself on the lead up to this game. But at the same time i feel that the ref (wont say his name cos hes a c**t) was extremely biased and nothing will change my opinion in that, it was absolutely discusting and it makes me think again about the consistency of the refs in the league. this has not been a good year for liverpool as far as reffing is concerned that's for sure.

      In the last section of Tomkins column he points out some very valid things that maybe i didn't take into account though i knew of them, one of them being:

      Also, United invested even more heavily than Liverpool last summer, building from a position of strength - although they paid around Ā£50m, they added Ā£80m of talent in just four players last summer. How do you close a gap in those circumstances?

      I'm not thinking of this as an excuse to what happened over the weekend as we should have rose to the occasion but he brings to light the fact that our squad is still being built and still gelling together, something that the papers have not been thinking about purely from been biased and stupidity.
      I still think Rafa is the man for the job to bring us the title and once he gets his squad EXACTLY how he wants it then and only then will we see us winning year in year out.
      I really cant wait until fergie retires and he will do very soon, and unless united get someone like mourinho in then i can see their winning form dropping until they gel with there new manager just like Chelsea. also i think that a few players will have moved on by then. But before all that happens i want us to win at anfeild and old trafford while fergie is still in charge which i believe is very achievable within the next couple of seasons. One thing i believe is going to be a big factor is what happens over the summer, personally id like Rafa to be ruthless and clear out the dead wood still hanging on and get all the money he needs to be able to buy the talent HE wants.

      This is a very exciting time for liverpool and i think if H&G don't F**k it up then we are going to have a very bright red future  :)

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