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      Liverpool FC Random Stats

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      JD
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      Liverpool FC Random Stats
      Apr 26, 2008 12:57:44 pm
      As we all know Liverpool have won 18 titles.  It would be fairly logical to think that these represented Liverpool's best 18 seasons in the top flight.

      Not so.

      These are our top ten seasons (in the top division) in terms of average points per game (at the right).  Seasons have been corrected for 3 points for a win.

      Season/Division/Played/Won/Drew/Lost/Scored/Conceded/Goal Difference/Actual Points/Final Pos/Converted Points/Points per game
                     
      1978-79   D1   42   30   08   4   85   16   69   68   1   98   2.33
      1987-88   D1   40   26   12   2   87   24   63   90   1   90   2.25
      2005-06   PR   38   25   07   6   57   25   32   82   3   82   2.16
      2001-02   PR   38   24   08   6   67   30   37   80   2   80   2.11
      1985-86   D1   42   26   10   6   89   37   52   88   1   88   2.10
      1989-90   D1   38   23   10   5   78   37   41   79   1   79   2.08
      1965-66   D1   42   26   09   7   79   34   45   61   1   87   2.07
      1981-82   D1   42   26   09   7   80   32   48   87   1   87   2.07
      1922-23   D1   42   26   08   8   70   31   39   60   1   86   2.05
      1968-69   D1   42   25   11   6   63   24   39   61   2   86   2.05

      Liverpool's third best League campaign saw Benitez walk away with third, and Houllier can count himself unlucky with his second place.  Only twice in the clubs 116 year history have the reds had better league campaigns than Houllier and Benitez brought to Anfield.

      Thoughts?
      « Last Edit: May 11, 2008 08:51:21 pm by JD »
      mrtommo
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #1: Apr 26, 2008 01:04:04 pm
      Very interesting and amazing to be be honest.

      But does this suggest that the gulf between the top clubs and the others is getting bigger ?

      Brian78
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #2: Apr 26, 2008 01:11:08 pm
      And the 2 seasons that came out on top were the 2 generally regarded as our best ever sides. I am somewhat surprised by the stats tho but I do believe we should have won it in 02
      JD
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #3: Apr 26, 2008 01:16:43 pm
      For the record, as it stands this season we are heading for our 17th best ever campaign 1.97 points per game.

      I'm pretty much in a statto mood now - and I know the season isn't over yet.

      We've lost four league games this season. Anybody want to take a guess how many times we have lost less than 4 games in a season in our club's history?

      mrtommo
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #4: Apr 26, 2008 01:17:54 pm
      I'd say just the once in the above mentioned 87 / 88 season.
      crouchinho
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #5: Apr 26, 2008 01:24:00 pm
      Wow. I think the answer to your question tommo is that the big clubs are just getting bigger and the others are staying the same. I mean getting 80 points now isnt a guarantee you've won the title anymore. Very good stat JD, cheers mate.
      JD
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #6: Apr 26, 2008 01:26:45 pm
      Correct.

      Although we did also 'only' lose four times in 78/79 (but played 42 games).  There I've deffo jinxed today's game.

      I think there are two points that I'm trying to make here.

      Firstly, our championship winning seasons our goal difference has tended to be very good, and the second more important point.

      It's not necessarily how many teams you beat, but who you beat.  In recent years Liverpool have consistently failed to beat the other title challengers - all classic 6 pointers.  Liverpool will never win the title without beating the other top three sides at least three times out of the six matches. 

      Effectively by losing both games against Man United we handed them the title this year.  If we had beaten them both times we would both be on 75 points and we would have a real chance to win the league this season.

      And that is, statistically speaking, the entire secret of landing the 19th title.
      srslfc
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #7: Apr 27, 2008 12:10:26 am
      It's not necessarily how many teams you beat, but who you beat.  In recent years Liverpool have consistently failed to beat the other title challengers - all classic 6 pointers.  Liverpool will never win the title without beating the other top three sides at least three times out of the six matches. 

      And that is, statistically speaking, the entire secret of landing the 19th title.

      A very good point JD. In Rafa's best season where Chelsea won the league if we had beaten them they would have finished on 85 points, while we could have won the title with 88 points. It may be a simplistic way of putting it but it stresses your point that the games against the other challengers are the crucial ones throughout a season.
      Rafa La Bamba
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #8: Apr 27, 2008 12:04:31 pm
      I think it only proves that the other clubs are getting far stronger, so no we shouldn't have won the title really. If we should have won the title then we should have been a lot more consistent under Houllier and maybe more gritty under Benitez.
      sabrina
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #9: Apr 27, 2008 01:30:49 pm
      I think it means yes we are getting better, but everyone else is gettig better too. :S
      The Fallen Soldier
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #10: Apr 27, 2008 05:36:09 pm
      As we all know Liverpool have won 18 titles.  It would be fairly logical to think that these represented Liverpool's best 18 seasons in the top flight.

      Not so.

      These are our top ten seasons (in the top division) in terms of average points per game (at the right).  Seasons have been corrected for 3 points for a win.

      Season/Division/Played/Won/Drew/Lost/Scored/Conceded/Goal Difference/Actual Points/Final Pos/Converted Points/Points per game
                     
      1978-79   D1   42   30   08   4   85   16   69   68   1   98   2.33
      1987-88   D1   40   26   12   2   87   24   63   90   1   90   2.25
      2005-06   PR   38   25   07   6   57   25   32   82   3   82   2.16
      2001-02   PR   38   24   08   6   67   30   37   80   2   80   2.11
      1985-86   D1   42   26   10   6   89   37   52   88   1   88   2.10
      1989-90   D1   38   23   10   5   78   37   41   79   1   79   2.08
      1965-66   D1   42   26   09   7   79   34   45   61   1   87   2.07
      1981-82   D1   42   26   09   7   80   32   48   87   1   87   2.07
      1922-23   D1   42   26   08   8   70   31   39   60   1   86   2.05
      1968-69   D1   42   25   11   6   63   24   39   61   2   86   2.05

      Liverpool's third best League campaign saw Benitez walk away with third, and Houllier can count himself unlucky with his second place.  Only twice in the clubs 116 year history have the reds had better league campaigns than Houllier and Benitez brought to Anfield.

      Thoughts?


      Does this take into account the time when it was 2 points for a win and not 3???
      JD
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #11: Apr 27, 2008 06:38:04 pm
      Yes it does Prag. I wasn't born yesterday (honest).  eg. 78/79 shows a points total for that season of 68 points, but in the modern game we would have got 98 points which is 2.33 per game.

      I take it from your query that you too are genuinely shocked that both Rafa and Gerard have produced 2 of Liverpool's best 4 league performances.
      donrafael
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #12: Apr 27, 2008 08:47:09 pm
      Arsenal and Man United have moved forward off the field of play - far, far more than LFC... which in turns results in us signing 2nd or 3rd options.

      We don't deserve to win titles just because we are Liverpool Football Club - that is irrational.

      We are a living disastre off the field of play... until that is sorted we won't win the title... of that I am personally convinced.
      JD
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #13: Apr 28, 2008 12:51:17 am
      Doesn't really answer why we won 16 titles with worse league performances than Benitez and Houllier have delivered to us in recent years.
      CRK
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #14: Apr 28, 2008 01:09:29 am
      It is an amazing stat, and although I thought that Rafa's most succesful league season would have won it any other season, it's suprising to see that Houllier's is up there too!

      It really is just a case of those around us improving, and the head to head stats of our matches with those around us in the league table! Sort that out and it's hello number 19! ;)
      redkenny
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #15: Apr 28, 2008 01:30:52 am
      It all boils down to getting more points than the team you play, in every game, rather than how many points you get in general for me. That's why I feel every single league game is very important and I can't stand it when I see players being so casual with the ball sometimes, when we come up against teams we're expected to beat. And then giving your rivals a game but not having the mindset or quality in the final third to justify the hard work.

      The rush of a league win at the final whistle is the best.

      Draws are easily forgoten but have a big effect come the beginning of April. And I hate to say it, but theres been a lot of occasions where I've been looking on results of other teams under Houllier and Rafa because of our lack to get three points, rather than knowing we've had the just result and not having to watch for others. It's ok notching up our personal best points but we don't compete against ourselves at the end of the day. The fact we've had very good personal seasons under Houllier and Rafa makes it even more frustrating that we're still waiting after 18 years.

      Each and every league game, we should fight to win it and not give up until we do. There should be no need for a league table until we can relax and no one can catch us.
      The Fallen Soldier
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #16: Apr 28, 2008 12:16:20 pm
      Yes it does Prag. I wasn't born yesterday (honest).  eg. 78/79 shows a points total for that season of 68 points, but in the modern game we would have got 98 points which is 2.33 per game.

      I take it from your query that you too are genuinely shocked that both Rafa and Gerard have produced 2 of Liverpool's best 4 league performances.

      Yes I am John quite shocked to be honest, when you go through the stats like that it kinda gets you thinking.
      Scouse pie
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #17: Apr 28, 2008 08:10:39 pm
      Gerard Houllier was the king of defending himself, however it is true when he said that 80 points accumalted in the 2001-2 season was good enough to win the title in the past.
      However with the same top four teams being in the champions league witht the revenue it offers and the emergence of Abramovich has helped increase the quality of the clubs in the top 4.
      Of course we had a shocking 90's period and Gerard has to be congratulated for taking us back to the top 4 where we belong. Sometimes thing has to be put into perspective, we are doing very well but not its not even good enough to win the title. This means more investment is needed. Its teh way football has gone im afriad.
      Magillionare
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #18: Apr 28, 2008 08:25:18 pm
      I remember 01 was the year we REALLY should have won, i think we were top at christmas wern't we?
      Belldiouf
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #19: Apr 29, 2008 06:18:08 am
      Such a long time ago now, but If I remember correctly we had a 7 point lead at Christmas over Arsenal but we then went 10 games with only 1 win or something like that.
      Shoelessboy
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #20: Apr 29, 2008 08:02:42 am
      IN 2001 we were lucky to finish second almost, by christmas we were in the lead but went on the worst resuslts streak i've seen. Then towards the end of the campaign scum died out and we managed to nick 2nd.
      JD
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      Re: Houllier and Benitez should have landed title
      Reply #21: May 11, 2008 08:50:44 pm
      2007/08 Stats

      In terms of 'not losing' our 5th best season ever (out of 104).  We 'didn't lose' in 89.47% of our games.

      Some other stats from this season compared to our past:

      Joint 17th best season in terms of points per game (2).  We have won the league on 9 occasions with worse league records (6 of which were post-war). The last time we won the league in 1990 we only managed 3 more points than we got this season.

      17th best season for goal difference.

      (Not scoring enough) - 38th best season for goals per game scored (even with Fernando Torres!) was 1.76 goals per game. (or a goal every 51 and a half minutes)

      (Decent defence) - 10th best season for goals conceded per game (0.74 per game - a goal conceded every 120 minutes).

      But probably the clincher....

      8th worst season for draws. Liverpool drew 34% of all our league games.  Two draws gets you 2 points.  A win and a defeat gets you 3.
      Court LFC
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      Re: Liverpool FC Random Stats
      Reply #22: May 12, 2008 12:44:46 am
      2007/08 Stats

      In terms of 'not losing' our 5th best season ever (out of 104).  We 'didn't lose' in 89.47% of our games.

      Some other stats from this season compared to our past:

      Joint 17th best season in terms of points per game (2).  We have won the league on 9 occasions with worse league records (6 of which were post-war). The last time we won the league in 1990 we only managed 3 more points than we got this season.

      17th best season for goal difference.

      (Not scoring enough) - 38th best season for goals per game scored (even with Fernando Torres!) was 1.76 goals per game. (or a goal every 51 and a half minutes)

      (Decent defence) - 10th best season for goals conceded per game (0.74 per game - a goal conceded every 120 minutes).

      But probably the clincher....

      8th worst season for draws. Liverpool drew 34% of all our league games.  Two draws gets you 2 points.  A win and a defeat gets you 3.

      & to add to that...

      Here is the finished Premier League table for 2007/08 (Top 10)



      Look closely.  Look very closely...

      76 points overall for us this season??  Not bad.  But look closer.

      Still don't see it?

      No?

      Well put it this way.  We were mathematically FOUR WINS short of lifting the title.  Or three wins & one draw if you want to put it that way.  Shocking isn't it?  It wasn't much of a bad domestic season, form wise, now was it?

      This season has been full of ifs and buts.

      So lets put them in to perspective.

      GAMES WE SHOULD HAVE WON

      Liverpool 1 - 1 Chelsea (19 Aug, 2007) Robbed by Rob the robber Styles
      Liverpool 0 - 0 Birmingham (22 Sep, 2007) Failed to turn so many chances in to goals
      Man City 0 - 0 Liverpool (30 Dec, 2007) Again, had lots & lots of chances, and surely should of sealed it
      Liverpool 1 -1 Wigan (02 Jan, 2008) Titus Bramble pops up in the dying minutes to equalize, we absolutely ran the game
      Liverpool 2 - 2 Aston Villa (21 Jan, 2008) Mistakes cost us again

      There are five noteable games.  I'm sure you could probably add to that.

      Noticed another pattern?  I know I have.  But I'll leave you to figure that out.

      Thoughts?
      redkenny
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      Re: Liverpool FC Random Stats
      Reply #23: May 12, 2008 01:29:15 am
      I don't know mate. But all I'm thinking of is this. Home wins against the ones above us and then wins at home against Birmingham, Wigan and Villa. And we would have ran away with it. But we couldn't get that extra goal or two in each game that would have really counted.

      So f**king annoying isn't it.

      Court LFC
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      Re: Liverpool FC Random Stats
      Reply #24: May 12, 2008 01:59:28 am
      I don't know mate. But all I'm thinking of is this. Home wins against the ones above us and then wins at home against Birmingham, Wigan and Villa. And we would have ran away with it. But we couldn't get that extra goal or two in each game that would have really counted.

      So f**king annoying isn't it.

      I think Rafa needs a new finishing coach mate.

      Obviously nothing wrong with Stevie G or Torres, but some of our players need to take every chance they get.  It's so overly frustrating and annoying.  But it's amazing how the little things are so important.
      kopkiwi
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      Re: Liverpool FC Random Stats
      Reply #25: May 12, 2008 02:22:44 am
      When you look back at some of the results it just makes me want to break down and cry. Look at those games mentioned above. They were all games we were in a commanding position. So close, we are so close to finally mounting that serious challenge we all crave so much.

      The thing that worries me? the last 15 years it's been 1 step forward and 2 steps back.
      king kenny
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      Re: Liverpool FC Random Stats
      Reply #26: May 12, 2008 03:37:26 am
      I have had this argument with Man u and Arsenal fans and have told them that they aren’t good for the English game.  Both teams have under achieved in Europe, they have simply put all their eggs in one basket sort of thing.  These were the teams that started under mine the league cup.


      The mentality of both teams is to produce a brand of football to beat mediocre teams, and constantly improve that style of football.  Especially, Arsenal they play a brand of football under Arsene Wenger and play it brilliantly, they are too good for at least about 15 teams in the prem when they turn on the style. When they lose to the bottom 16 teams it’s usually at the expense of damaged woodwork, severe decision and poor performances and its hardly ever one of the points but at least two of the reasons.   They both play and try to improve this brand of football which is very rigid especially in Arsenal’s case.  In Europe it’s a different game altogether, they come face to face against teams with the best defences and coaches that have players to break this transparent type of attacking football that makes easy work of dealing with so many smaller clubs, both teams are transparent especially Arsenal..  Man utd, have in the recent past tried to use a different formation in Europe but the brand for me has been quite similar.  Only this season against Barca it was surprising to see them playing so deep something different that eventually took them to their second final in 20 years under Fergy. 

      The Liverpool of the past have always respected all competitions, we gave it all in Europe, the FA cup, Milk Cup and the League.  That meant we would have a tighter league table and a team that was winning on the international stage in Europe. 

      As for our future, I totally agree with JD the secret will lye in trying to take points from the top teams especially man utd.  By hook or crook we have to take at least 4 points from them.  We may need to build a successful system of our own the 4231 system maybe a good starting point and used it in most prem games.
      CRK
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      Re: Liverpool FC Random Stats
      Reply #27: May 12, 2008 09:02:47 am
      Well put it this way.  We were mathematically FOUR WINS short of lifting the title.  Or three wins & one draw if you want to put it that way.  Shocking isn't it?  It wasn't much of a bad domestic season, form wise, now was it?

      Technically speaking Court, but we would have won the league if we had beaten United twice! :D Sort that out and we can be in with a realistic shout! :D
      Court LFC
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      Re: Liverpool FC Random Stats
      Reply #28: May 12, 2008 12:56:50 pm
      Technically speaking Court, but we would have won the league if we had beaten United twice! :D Sort that out and we can be in with a realistic shout! :D

      And won the League with one extra point?  ;)

      That's the thing though.  We need to beat the Top 4 with every chance we get!!!  This is always why we look like we underachieve but it always baffles me because we win nearly every game!!!
      CRK
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      Re: Liverpool FC Random Stats
      Reply #29: May 12, 2008 01:02:23 pm
      And won the League with one extra point?  ;)

      That's the thing though.  We need to beat the Top 4 with every chance we get!!!  This is always why we look like we underachieve but it always baffles me because we win nearly every game!!!

      That's the magic of those 6 pointer matches! :-\ If we would have won those matches against Chelsea rather than two draws then that would take them down to 83 points and us to 80 points! So the league would have been a lot closer than it's written!

      It's all full of if's and but's but I seriously think that the 11 point gap is only there for the sake of about 4 goals! Another 5 or 6 and we would have lifted the title against City! :D

      This massive gap and how much we need to improve is a load of my arse! We only need to secure a couple more wins rather than those horrible draws and we're there! :D Rafa must be laughing his tits off, because he knows all of this!

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