Jordan Henderson (Liverpool -> Al-Ettifaq (5 months) -> Ajax)

I was about to reply saying something similar to him until I seen this.

No need for me to reply now.

But yet you still did 

BarneyLFC, I agree with you that Hendo on his day is a fantastic player, especially at what he does, but only when he has the right players with him in the middle.

I understand why some don't rate him, they are comparing him to the likes of Rakitic, Pogba, Koke, Vidal, Matudi, Verratti etc, even Dele Alli now. Players that play similar roles, players that have been far superior to our Captain last season and this. He hasn't been up to that standard since 13/14 season, has he?

I Also think it is ridiculous to say he doesn't have to be at the standard previously required because he's up against "weaker" opposition than what we have seen in the past. If you had noticed last season and this, we have been dominated in the middle by "weaker" midfielders. The competitiveness is just as intense as it was back then, with players more fitter, better technically and tactically better, then you thrown in our unbalanced midfield into the equation, of course Hendo needs to try to reach or surpass the level that was before when Scholes, Vieira, Keane etc were playing.

Anyway, I rate Hendo highly and believe he would no doubt get into any 3 man midfield (in the prem) playing that box-box role when he is performing the way he did in the 13/14 season. Unfortunately, the problem with players like Hendo, Can, Milner or Allen, they are not your alpha midfielders and struggle to take control. We need a Masch or Alonso type to see the best in them imo.

BarneyLFC, I agree with you that Hendo on his day is a fantastic player, especially at what he does, but only when he has the right players with him in the middle.

I understand why some don't rate him, they are comparing him to the likes of Rakitic, Pogba, Koke, Vidal, Matudi, Verratti etc, even Dele Alli now. Players that play similar roles, players that have been far superior to our Captain last season and this. He hasn't been up to that standard since 13/14 season, has he?

I Also think it is ridiculous to say he doesn't have to be at the standard previously required because he's up against "weaker" opposition than what we have seen in the past. If you had noticed last season and this, we have been dominated in the middle by "weaker" midfielders. The competitiveness is just as intense as it was back then, with players more fitter, better technically and tactically better, then you thrown in our unbalanced midfield into the equation, of course Hendo needs to try to reach or surpass the level that was before when Scholes, Vieira, Keane etc were playing.

Anyway, I rate Hendo highly and believe he would no doubt get into any 3 man midfield (in the prem) playing that box-box role when he is performing the way he did in the 13/14 season. Unfortunately, the problem with players like Hendo, Can, Milner or Allen, they are not your alpha midfielders and struggle to take control. We need a Masch or Alonso type to see the best in them imo.

Henderson has played well with Lucas last season, Allen last season, and Can this season. He played well with Coutinho and Gerrard in 13/14. Henderson can play well with most players.

Yeah, if you compare him to the likes of Pogba, Koke, and Vidal he isn't going to look as good. Even in 13/14 he wasn't that good (personally, I think he was individually better last season and we saw more of his individual qualities rather than his cliched work rate). Dele Alli is in top form at the moment, but he's not played all season at his current level and it remains to be seen if his current form continues.

I'm struggling to think of a midfield that has totally dominated us this season. Maybe Manchester United earlier on in the season? Henderson wasn't playing then though and it was clearly a Rodgers tactic to sit back and frustrate them. Our problems this season haven't been down to the midfield, certainly not when Henderson has played. They've generally been down to us being absolutely sh*t in front of goal and having no movement, goalkeeping errors, and sh*te defending from set pieces. Henderson and Can pissed on the much wanked over Kante when we played Leicester at Anfield. He was as good as any midfielder on the pitch against Arsenal's famed midfield.

There isn't a midfielder in the league (or a player) who is as good as Gerrard, Keane, Vieira, Scholes, or Lampard at their peaks. Not even close. Even someone like a prime Essien pisses over every midfielder currently playing in England. I'd love to hear which premier league midfielder you think is better technically than Gerrard, Scholes, or Alonso. There aren't any, not even close.

Every team in the league can say they need an Alonso or Mascherano. A prime Xabi Alonso would be the best midfielder in the world right now though, that's the thing. There aren't players at that level. Which midfielders currently are as good as the likes of Gerrard, Alonso, Xavi, Pirlo, Scholes, and Iniesta? There aren't any. Players like Kroos, Modric, and Busquets are undoubtedly fantastic players, but they're on the rung below Gerrard et al.

I was about to reply saying something similar to him until I seen this.

No need for me to reply now.

> Make a bunch of stupid statements criticising a player
> Someone defends him
> Refuse to put forward a counter-argument

Fair enough.

isn't he playing through injury every game? in a side down on form? newly instated captain, mentor gone, all of a sudden so much weight on his shoulders? trying to learn a new system, be a different midfielder, under a new manager? i guess it's easy to get online and make calls such as "he will never win da premier league" when everything's at a low point

There isn't a midfielder in the league (or a player) who is as good as Gerrard, Keane, Vieira, Scholes, or Lampard at their peaks. Not even close. Even someone like a prime Essien pisses over every midfielder currently playing in England. I'd love to hear which premier league midfielder you think is better technically than Gerrard, Scholes, or Alonso. There aren't any, not even close.

Compare all the midfielders in the league now to the ones when Scholes, Gerrard, Veira etc were at their peak, and I would put my money down to say the players and tactics overall are now generally better than the ones in the past, also, a lot of teams go for 3 man midfield, therefore, the standard of competition is just as strong.

I'm struggling to think of a midfield that has totally dominated us this season. Maybe Manchester United earlier on in the season? Henderson wasn't playing then though and it was clearly a Rodgers tactic to sit back and frustrate them. Our problems this season haven't been down to the midfield, certainly not when Henderson has played. They've generally been down to us being absolutely sh*t in front of goal and having no movement, goalkeeping errors, and sh*te defending from set pieces.

Even if we haven't been dominated, our possession play has been poor. Too many of our passes are pointless, so many attempts at killer through balls, long balls etc, we can not control the middle, the midfield is a problem as well.

Henderson and Can pissed on the much wanked over Kante when we played Leicester at Anfield. He was as good as any midfielder on the pitch against Arsenal's famed midfield.

And their midfield nullified ours last match. And you do know Kante is predominately a defensive midfielder, right?

Every team in the league can say they need an Alonso or Mascherano.

We don't have an Alonso or Masch type midfielder, most of the best teams in world football do, that's what I'm getting at. We get one or the other and our midfield along with out team will function a lot better imo.

Compare all the midfielders in the league now to the ones when Scholes, Gerrard, Veira etc were at their peak, and I would put my money down to say the players and tactics overall are now generally better than the ones in the past, also, a lot of teams go for 3 man midfield, therefore, the standard of competition is just as strong.

Even if we haven't been dominated, our possession play has been poor. Too many of our passes are pointless, so many attempts at killer through balls, long balls etc, we can not control the middle, the midfield is a problem as well.

And their midfield nullified ours last match. And you do know Kante is predominately a defensive midfielder, right?

We don't have an Alonso or Masch type midfielder, most of the best teams in world football do, that's what I'm getting at. We get one or the other and our midfield along with out team will function a lot better imo.

The game hasn't moved on tactically from 2009 when Gerrard and Scholes were still brilliant players. 2005-2009 was when the league was at its strongest. It has absolutely not moved on from there and you're deluding yourself if you don't think Keane and Vieira would be able to cope with the current lot of midfielders in the league. If you really want to push and say fitness is better now, surely you have to say Keane and Vieira would be even more fit than they already were because surely they'd have access to the same technology. The current crop of midfielders are decent, but they aren't anywhere close to being as good as some of the best the league has seen.

Yeah, I agree a lot of our passes from deep don't come off. I don't think that's down to Henderson though. Henderson is one of the best midfielders in the league at creating chances from a relatively deep position.

Aye, Kante nullified Lucas and Can. That had nothing to do with Henderson who was playing out wide and who has been clearly injured for the past two or three games (hence Klopp taking him off). I do now Kante is a relatively defensive midfielder. And?

A prime Alonso would be better than every midfielder in the world at the moment. Every team in the league would function better with Alonso or Mascherano seeing as none of them have anyone as good as either of them. We're competing against these teams at the moment.  The midfields that we are competing against don't have Alonso's of their own. We don't need an Alonso. Henderson is more than a match for any midfielder in this league at the moment and that's what matters. Are there some better than him? Of course. It isn't by a significant margin though. When it comes to winning the league in the current climate, what matters is goals. Do you have enough players who are capable of absolutely taking the bottom 13 to shreds?

isn't he playing through injury every game? in a side down on form? newly instated captain, mentor gone, all of a sudden so much weight on his shoulders? trying to learn a new system, be a different midfielder, under a new manager? i guess it's easy to get online and make calls such as "he will never win da premier league" when everything's at a low point

Thats the problem right there. When it comes to Henderson , there is always an excuse to why he isn't playing well. Playing with an injury? Bollocks. Needs someone to hold his hand in midfield? Jesus f***in christ!! Playing in a struggling team? f***in man up then. Weight of the Captaincy on his shoulders? Wah wah wah. Won't be long before someone says it's his time of the month!
He is an inconsistent player of limited ability , with a timid mentality .

Im sick of people basically saying that because he is captain he must be world class. Absolute rubbish.

He is captain because of the very few options that were available and probably because he is English. If Rafa or Klopp were managing us when Stevie retired I would bet my house that they both would have made Lucas captain before Henderson.

The game hasn't moved on tactically from 2009 when Gerrard and Scholes were still brilliant players. 2005-2009 was when the league was at its strongest. It has absolutely not moved on from there and you're deluding yourself if you don't think Keane and Vieira would be able to cope with the current lot of midfielders in the league. If you really want to push and say fitness is better now, surely you have to say Keane and Vieira would be even more fit than they already were because surely they'd have access to the same technology. The current crop of midfielders are decent, but they aren't anywhere close to being as good as some of the best the league has seen.

Yeah, I agree a lot of our passes from deep don't come off. I don't think that's down to Henderson though. Henderson is one of the best midfielders in the league at creating chances from a relatively deep position.

Aye, Kante nullified Lucas and Can. That had nothing to do with Henderson who was playing out wide and who has been clearly injured for the past two or three games (hence Klopp taking him off). I do now Kante is a relatively defensive midfielder. And?

A prime Alonso would be better than every midfielder in the world at the moment. Every team in the league would function better with Alonso or Mascherano seeing as none of them have anyone as good as either of them. We're competing against these teams at the moment.  The midfields that we are competing against don't have Alonso's of their own. We don't need an Alonso. Henderson is more than a match for any midfielder in this league at the moment and that's what matters. Are there some better than him? Of course. It isn't by a significant margin though. When it comes to winning the league in the current climate, what matters is goals. Do you have enough players who are capable of absolutely taking the bottom 13 to shreds?

" Henderson is one of the best midfielders in the league at creating chance's from a relatively deep position " ha ha , please, stop it, please
" Henderson is more than a match for any midfielder in this league at the moment"
No more , please, i'm gona piss meself!
Oh dear!
The only thing other midfielders can't match Henderson at , is his ability to completely disappear in front of 45'000 people, its an uncanny gift he has. You just seem to forget that he is on the pitch. No matter how hard you try, you just can't see him

For anyone still thinks he's not injured then they must be watching a different player.

Jürgen needs to drop him out and see if he can recover from this.

For anyone still thinks he's not injured then they must be watching a different player.

Jürgen needs to drop him out and see if he can recover from this.

I'd honestly give him the rest of this season off to try to get him ready for next campaign.  Same with Studge - use them sparingly over the next 3-4 months, make sure they don't have any more injury setbacks, get them fully fit during preseason, and give it a real go next term.  This season is shot aside from the cups.  Let's focus on getting a trophy or two (ideally the Europa League for obvious reasons) and regroup for an assault on the league next season.....

Oh, and tell both of them (and Ings) that they aren't allowed to play for Project Owl anymore!!

I'd honestly give him the rest of this season off to try to get him ready for next campaign.  Same with Studge - use them sparingly over the next 3-4 months, make sure they don't have any more injury setbacks, get them fully fit during preseason, and give it a real go next term.  This season is shot aside from the cups.  Let's focus on getting a trophy or two (ideally the Europa League for obvious reasons) and regroup for an assault on the league next season.....

Oh, and tell both of them (and Ings) that they aren't allowed to play for Project Owl anymore!!

I'd be tempted to do the same Harry.

For anyone still thinks he's not injured then they must be watching a different player.

Jürgen needs to drop him out and see if he can recover from this.

Oh they know but that fact doesn't sit with their anti player agenda.

The game hasn't moved on tactically from 2009 when Gerrard and Scholes were still brilliant players. 2005-2009 was when the league was at its strongest. It has absolutely not moved on from there and you're deluding yourself if you don't think Keane and Vieira would be able to cope with the current lot of midfielders in the league. If you really want to push and say fitness is better now, surely you have to say Keane and Vieira would be even more fit than they already were because surely they'd have access to the same technology. The current crop of midfielders are decent, but they aren't anywhere close to being as good as some of the best the league has seen.

The point I am making, if you read my post correctly is that the quantity has improved, therefore the competition is just high as it was back then. Not once did I suggest the likes of Keane , Vieira etc would not cope.

Yeah, I agree a lot of our passes from deep don't come off. I don't think that's down to Henderson though. Henderson is one of the best midfielders in the league at creating chances from a relatively deep position.

I'm a huge fan of Hendo, but seriously....

Aye, Kante nullified Lucas and Can. That had nothing to do with Henderson who was playing out wide and who has been clearly injured for the past two or three games (hence Klopp taking him off). I do now Kante is a relatively defensive midfielder. And?

Oh, I wasn't too sure you understood fully when you mentioned this..

Saying he wouldn't get into Leicester's team is absolutely ridiculous. He's not better than Kante? Really?

The midfields that we are competing against don't have Alonso's of their own. We don't need an Alonso. Henderson is more than a match for any midfielder in this league at the moment and that's what matters. Are there some better than him? Of course. It isn't by a significant margin though.

If they don't have the Alonso's, then they have the Maschs.

Leicster = Kante
Arsenal = Coquilin
Chelsea = Matic
Man Utd = Schneiderlin or Schweinsteiger
Crystal Palace = Cabaye
Newcastle = Shelvey
Spurs = Looking to be Dier now.
West ham = Song

Again, Hendo is not an alpha midfielder, and having a player like Masch or Alonso will allow him to play his best game for us.

" Henderson is one of the best midfielders in the league at creating chance's from a relatively deep position " ha ha , please, stop it, please
" Henderson is more than a match for any midfielder in this league at the moment"
No more , please, i'm gona piss meself!
Oh dear!
The only thing other midfielders can't match Henderson at , is his ability to completely disappear in front of 45'000 people, its an uncanny gift he has. You just seem to forget that he is on the pitch. No matter how hard you try, you just can't see him

He is. There are some that are better at it (Fabregas), but there's a reason Henderson has the most assists from open play in the past two years.

I'd like to hear who these midfielders are that piss all over Henderson. There aren't any. That's the thing with his detractors, whenever you ask them for actual names of better players in the league, they're not given.

You're an idiot.

The point I am making, if you read my post correctly is that the quantity has improved, therefore the competition is just high as it was back then. Not once did I suggest the likes of Keane , Vieira etc would not cope.

I'm a huge fan of Hendo, but seriously....

Oh, I wasn't too sure you understood fully when you mentioned this..


If they don't have the Alonso's, then they have the Maschs.

Leicster = Kante
Arsenal = Coquilin
Chelsea = Matic
Man Utd = Schneiderlin or Schweinsteiger
Crystal Palace = Cabaye
Newcastle = Shelvey
Spurs = Looking to be Dier now.
West ham = Song

Again, Hendo is not an alpha midfielder, and having a player like Masch or Alonso will allow him to play his best game for us.

The quantity of good midfielders has improved or midfield battles are now 3 vs. 3 rather than 2 vs. 2? Both statements are false. The quality of midfielders in the league has gone downhill.

He is. Again, his assist record points to that. Point me to the player (other than Fabregas) who is better at creating a chance from a deep position.

None of the players you've listed are as good as Mascherano or anywhere near as good as Mascherano. Shelvey and Cabaye aren't even defensive midfielders. Henderson is better than all of the players you've listed there, with the exception of Schweinsteiger and even he's having a poor season and looks like the injuries have gotten to him.

He is. There are some that are better at it (Fabregas), but there's a reason Henderson has the most assists from open play in the past two years.

I'd like to hear who these blah blah blah blah blah  Henderson. There aren't any. That's the blah blah blah blah blah blah actual names of better blah blah blah they're not given.

You're an idiot.

A player still  qualifies for an assist if he passes the ball to another player and that player then goes on a mazy run and scores. We're not talking about defence splitting passe's here are we?
You see that's the problem with just using the stats. Go back and watch his 9 assists from last season and his 7 from the season before and see how many are a great pass. Now, we can lose count of how many times he fucks up a simple pass can't we? The balance certainly isn't in his favour.
So, just to recap.
Shooting - below average
Passing -average
Set pieces- below average
Tackling- average
Heading - below average

The quantity of good midfielders has improved or midfield battles are now 3 vs. 3 rather than 2 vs. 2? Both statements are false. The quality of midfielders in the league has gone downhill.

He is. Again, his assist record points to that. Point me to the player (other than Fabregas) who is better at creating a chance from a deep position.

None of the players you've listed are as good as Mascherano or anywhere near as good as Mascherano. Shelvey and Cabaye aren't even defensive midfielders. Henderson is better than all of the players you've listed there, with the exception of Schweinsteiger and even he's having a poor season and looks like the injuries have gotten to him.

Playing 10000 killer passes in a game doesn't mean you are better. I rate Ki, Shelvey, Cabaye, Fabregas, Toure, Wilshire, Ramsey more at playing that deep lying passes, there are probably a couple more that I have missed too.

Seriously, you make it sound as if Hendo is the ultimate midfielder, a player that can pass as good as Cabaye, defend as good as Kante and attack as good as Ramsey. Like i said before, he is exceptional at what he does, but he is not your Alonso or Masch type player.

I really do give up, it is obvious you do not understand midfield roles and why I used Masch and Alonso as examples.

Playing 10000 killer passes in a game doesn't mean you are better. I rate Ki, Shelvey, Cabaye, Fabregas, Toure, Wilshire, Ramsey more at playing that deep lying passes, there are probably a couple more that I have missed too.

Seriously, you make it sound as if Hendo is the ultimate midfielder, a player that can pass as good as Cabaye, defend as good as Kante and attack as good as Ramsey. Like i said before, he is exceptional at what he does, but he is not your Alonso or Masch type player.

I really do give up, it is obvious you do not understand midfield roles and why I used Masch and Alonso as examples.

Ki, Shelvey, Cabaye, and Toure over Henderson? Are you out of your mind? Ramsey is a better player than Henderson, but he's not better at creating chances from deep. Ramsey's movement and his ability to take part in one touch moves around the box is what makes him so good.

He's a better passer of the ball than Yohan Cabaye. He's not better defensively than Kante, but then I've never claimed he was. Also haven't said he's better going forward than Ramsey. Let's stop making things up and sticking words in my mouth, shall we? I agree, he's not Alonso or Mascherano. Cabaye, Kante, and Ramsey aren't your Alonso or Mascherano figure either though!

Yes, it's me that doesn't understand midfield roles. Using Alonso and Mascherano as examples is F***ing stupid because NO TEAM IN THE LEAGUE HAS A MIDFIELDER AS GOOD AS ALONSO OR MASCHERANO. They do not exist! We don't need to have midfielders as good as them because the standard of competition has changed in the league.

For anyone still thinks he's not injured then they must be watching a different player.

Jürgen needs to drop him out and see if he can recover from this.

I agree mate, it is not doing the player or the club any favours keeping him playing while obviously still struggling with injury. Even Gerrard suffered criticism when he was playing while obviously injured, how much more for a player with no where near the same history.

Ki, Shelvey, Cabaye, and Toure over Henderson? Are you out of your mind? Ramsey is a better player than Henderson, but he's not better at creating chances from deep. Ramsey's movement and his ability to take part in one touch moves around the box is what makes him so good.

He's a better passer of the ball than Yohan Cabaye. He's not better defensively than Kante, but then I've never claimed he was. Also haven't said he's better going forward than Ramsey. Let's stop making things up and sticking words in my mouth, shall we? I agree, he's not Alonso or Mascherano. Cabaye, Kante, and Ramsey aren't your Alonso or Mascherano figure either though!

Yes, it's me that doesn't understand midfield roles. Using Alonso and Mascherano as examples is f**king stupid because NO TEAM IN THE LEAGUE HAS A MIDFIELDER AS GOOD AS ALONSO OR MASCHERANO. They do not exist! We don't need to have midfielders as good as them because the standard of competition has changed in the league.

Would help if he could control a ball with one touch, take the ball with his back to a defender and turn without the ball going straight back.
I suppose that's too much to ask.

I agree mate, it is not doing the player or the club any favours keeping him playing while obviously still struggling with injury. Even Gerrard suffered criticism when he was playing while obviously injured, how much more for a player with no where near the same history.

I don't think Henderson's the only one playing with an injury. Sakho seems to have issues any time he comes down after going up for a header.

I don't think Henderson's the only one playing with an injury. Sakho seems to have issues any time he comes down after going up for a header.

It's a vicious cycle mate. So many players are injured, so we have to rush back players from injury and overplay our other players. Doing that increases the chance of them picking up another injury and the cycle continues. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of our players had little niggles at the moment.