INTERVIEW: Former LFC U23s boss Michael Beale on his new role at Sao Paulo FC
This Is Anfield
5 February 2017
We speak to former Liverpool Under-23s coach Michael Beale, now assistant manager at Brazilian side Sao Paulo FC, to find out how heās settling into his new role.
After four successful years at Liverpool, Beale made the bold decision to take up a role at Sao Paulo as assistant to new manager and legendary Brazilian hero, Rogerio Ceni ā the man who lifted the Club World Cup against Liverpool in 2005.
Leaving Liverpool was not an easy decision, but as Beale explained to This Is Anfield, it was an opportunity he had to take.
In this, the first of a two-part interview, we speak about the changes in culture from England to Brazil, settling in and learning a new language, career ambitions, and moving in down the road from Denilson!
How are you settling in and enjoying the job?
Itās been a month and out of that month weāve spent three weeks in Florida for preseason. Either side of that three weeks I have spent about a week in Sao Paulo, I feel comfortable within the city and the people are really calm and happy people.
Travelling around, I have never used Uber so much. I never used it at home, I was always driving but here Uber is so cheap compared to taxis back home.
I am really settled and have been very happy on the training pitch. Of course, you need to see how you adjust to working with Brazilian players along with the second language, [but] I love football so working with Brazilian players has been a pleasure.
I feel like I have really settled and the season starts this Sunday, and it canāt come quick enough.
I have been blown away by the amount of support the fans have given. Iāve been recognised a few times in the city and stopped to have photos with people. They have been very polite and not intrusive.
To be honest I am sure that would be completely the same in Liverpool. I read this week Joe Gomezās words about moving and why he loves living in Liverpool. I echo the same thoughts as him, as a Londoner too.
Iāve been very happy with the way people have accepted me here. To keep it that way I am sure we need to make sure we win some games!
You must be looking forward to that first game then?
Itās a strange situation. We are playing away to a team called Audax, who lost in the final of this state championship last year to Santos, they are a very good team and have a very unique style with a very eccentric coach. But the president of the club is the former player, Vampeta, who played for Brazil and they moved the game to a bigger stadium because its Rogerioās first game and they put the price of the tickets really high.
As of two/three days ago, the Sao Paulo fans are boycotting the game, I think rightly so because the other club are trying to make a cash cow off the back of Rogerioās and Sao Paulo so they have boycotted the game and the crowd seems to be very small.
In reaction to this for our first home game next weekend, Sao Paulo have reduced the ticket price to a fifth of the price that Audax are asking for this game. So its a bit tit for tat but its refreshing in some ways that the club and the supporters here in Brazil are demanding and making sure the price of the tickets are right, obviously back home it is quite a topical subject also.
You mentioned the people being friendly, do you see any other similarities between Liverpool and Sao Paulo as cities?
I think obviously both sets of fans are passionate, both sets of fans have been fans of clubs that have been extremely successful in the past and had some extremely good players. You only have to look at the players that have played for Sao Paulo over the years to realise they are a wonderful football club.
In terms of the two cities, they couldnāt be more different, this is such a huge, vast city with a lot of high rise flats and apartment buildings, which I have sort of forgot what that was like moving away from London to Liverpool and living out in areas such as Aughton and Formby, that was completely different.
But I am actually going to settle outside the city in a housing complex with my wife and children. Itās very nice and the house Iām currently in negotiations over is close to Denilsonās ā the ex Brazil player, famous for his step overs and now a commentator here. The house is in the same little part he lives in so that will be interesting. It will be quite strange if I invited him over for a game of one v one ā Iām not sure I would win that one!
Howās the language coming along? Did you start lessons when you were still in the UK?
I started lessons in Liverpool and I must say my tutor Ian Constable was outstanding. Itās a small world really, I was looking for a tutor and I had from December 11th till December 24th to take lessons and the only full-time tutor I could find in Portuguese in the North West was Ian ā his family are from Sao Paulo and he is Brazilian himself.
I spent probably 18 to 20 hours with him before. Since then Iāve not had chance to take lessons or study on my own but every day the people around me are speaking Portuguese. I would also like to say thank you to the Uber drivers of Sao Paulo because they are the ones who I speak my terrible Portuguese with each day, in hope of improving.
I havenāt had many problems on the training pitch, as you can imagine when youāre shouting out broken words of āpressā, āstopā, āturnā, āone twoā, ātwo v oneā, these words are very easy. Itās much more difficult when you are in the city trying to have a conversation with people.
The cultural differences on the training pitch, are there any other differences you have noticed in terms of maybe the media, the way the players apply themselves, anything else culturally different?
The media has greater access to the players and to the training sessions than they do in England. So at least two or three days a week the media can come in and watch our training. As the players come off the pitch the media can speak to them.
Also what I found interesting is the media and TV over here get to talk to the players as they walk off the pitch at half time, which is very unique.
The media has a greater insight/access. There is a good and bad side to that, I think if itās managed well itās excellent. But if not managed well or teams are going through difficulty then it can cause some problems.
The players have been fantastic and are working at the same level as players in England, in terms of hard work and intensity every day, which I was very surprised with because I was wondering whether the heat might make things a little calmer and with less intensity, but how players have trained here has been outstanding every day. Itās the thing that has made me the happiest about being out here.
In terms of the players they are all technically very good as you can imagine. Itās a very young squad, 14 players out of the 27 we have are out of the academy, which is fantastic because the academy in Sao Paulo is known for producing players. As of this week we sold a player for Ā£15 million to Ajax, a young winger, David Neres, who is an exciting player for the future. Itās a club that keeps producing fantastic young players.
In terms of meal times, all the English players always have their phones out, after they have scoffed their food down, they want to be up and away. Everyone here is a bit more happy being together and its a bit more social, phones are not so obvious at meal times. They arenāt on the table and people are sort of happy relaxing and taking the day a lot more calmer. Time isnāt a rush in Brazil, people are calmer about their day.
Do you think Sao Pauloās focus on youth players was a key reason they looked to appoint you?
I think that the big reason I am here is that me and Rogerio see football in the same way; we want to play football that its exciting and attacking and we love to see young players coming through.
Obviously he was a young player that came though this club many years ago and went on to be one of the biggest idols of the club.
We look at the academy in Cortia and itās a fantastic facility and you see how good these young players are and of course we want to build a stronger bridge. We donāt want these young players leaving Sao Paulo until they have achieved at the club, we think this is very important that these players are given an opportunity to play in the big team and fulfil their dreams just like Rogerio did.
There is a very famous saying by Sir Matt Busby, āif you want football to find the fruits then grow your ownā because youth development is gold and I really believe in that.
The club have heavily invested in a brilliant academy facility which is about 20km outside the city. Itās important that you see at least 50 percent of the squad, slightly more at the minute, from that academy facility and footballers that are good enough to play for one of the powerhouse facilities of Europe after they have played for Sao Paulo, thats fantastic. But I think that the players should do well for Sao Paulo first because they get given the opportunity to make that move.
How are you finding the step up from being a development coach to looking at the results, and it being more results orientated?
Yeah, I think the pressure is always there. Itās not always visible and you always talk about the long term when dealing with young players. Whenever I have spoken to you in the past I have always spoken about the long term, with the first team you know you have to win in the short term or there isnāt a long term, but I think my job day in and day out hasnāt changed.
I am still the same way that I was with the players back in Liverpool. We train similarly and our training sessions are very similar because me and Rogerio have the same idea in terms of how to develop players and develop a playing style. I donāt feel a real big difference at the minute.
I am sure if you ask me in a monthās time I will feel one or two things but think its down to processes. If you train well and you are clear in your messages and develop the individual to be the best he can be and make him happy in training and life, that in turn will start to reap benefits on the pitch.
One of the things I wanted to do was test the work I did with young players but in a senior environment. Just because I honestly believe that the difference between a 19-year-old in the U23s and a 24-year-old in the first-team is very little. They are both people and both want to be developed and pushed on in their careers.
Itās like a CPD for anyone ā in the workplace in a bank or any business ā itās the same for a footballer, I think everyone wants to feel important and to feel like they are being developed. I have tried to be exactly the same as I was in Liverpool and at the moment it seems to be a good decision and working quite well.
On a personal level, would you like to end up working back in England as a manager? As a first team coach. Any ideas on a longer term view?
Itās very interesting because seven weeks ago I saw myself staying at Liverpool for another five or six years.
Things come along out of the blue donāt they. I just felt I needed another experience, obviously the experience of working in London at a big club like Chelsea and then coming to an unbelievable club like Liverpool, it took my breath away.
When I think over the last four and a half years, I am still love sick with Liverpool that it didnāt go any further but this opportunity came along and its an unbelievable one to be the first English coach to work here. I just felt I needed an experience outside of England to grow.
I have worked with a lot of European players, among of the best players in England over a number of years. I had seen players make the first team and I had worked with first team players but I needed an experience outside to challenge myself because I suppose the age I am as a coach 36, I am almost like a youth coach.
Like a youth player being 17 and senior being 27/28, coaches donāt really start until they are mid-fifties, late forties-mid fifties for being at their highest level.
Like the players that I worked with, I felt I needed something that was going to develop me and I certainly feel I am doing that working with a first team in a new country, new language. Where that takes me in the future I donāt know. Whether I decide to stay in youth development or go to the first team, I donāt know. I just felt it wasnāt the time to drop down to League 1, League 2.
It was either I was going to stay at Liverpool and continue to work with Alex [Ingelthorpe] and Pepijn [Lijnders] and the the guys to really push us forward, or an opportunity like this came along and I just felt it was important for me to learn a second language and a new culture.
I have two small children that are two and four and this was probably the only time I could take such a big change. My children will get to learn a second language and they are not so attached to school and friends because they are so young. It was a decision I had to make in the space of three or four days and obviously such a huge one.
Talking LFC academy debuts, Steven Gerrardās return, future stars and more ā Michael Beale Interview Part 2
This Is Anfield
6 February 2017
In the second part of our interview with former Liverpool Under-23s coach Micael Beale, we discuss his work at the Redsā academy and players for the future.
It was a really good four years for you at Liverpool, in particular the last year which has been really impressive one for the academy.
I know it was difficult for you to leave, seeing the progress being made. You must have been really pleased to see Harry Wilson get his debut recently?
I have been over the moon, looking from the outside and seeing Harry get on and make his debut, that was the end of my time at Liverpool. It was one of the things missing at the end that I hadnāt got Harry there.
Harry was in my first training session, my first team. He was someone I won many games with and had so much enjoyment working with and been close to.
This year it was my plan, after such a disappointing year last year, to make him captain. I wanted to show everyone he was a responsible boy and he had been at Liverpool the longest out of the current reserve team group and I wanted to promote him upwards.
Just because he is small doesnāt mean he is not a player that you canāt count on or rely on and I wanted to try and push him forward. Harry has responded to that fantastically well, god knows how many goals and assist he has this year but numbers are very high. All credit to him.
So far he hasnāt suffered any injuries this year and he gets it make his debut. I was so, so proud. After the parents, its the coaches that have worked with a player over the years that are proud.
We have had a lot of moments like that in the last two and a half years, we have been have blessed because a youth coach can go 10 years not having what we had in 10 months.
I am very thankful to the first team staff for that but at the same time I am more thankful to the players because if they are not good enough or out training well alongside the first team guys then there is no way JĆ¼rgen would play them.
He is a manager that is used to working with players in the Champions League, top young players like Marco Reus and Mario Goetze at his former club. If these boys werenāt good enough to play there is no way JĆ¼rgen would play them.
It must have been pleasing to see Trent Alexander-Arnold get his first league start at Old Trafford?
It was only a year ago that I made the dreadful mistake of playing him at Anfield in an Under 23s game, where it didnāt go so well for him. We came home at the end of that day thinking we need to give him more time, because he has a huge talent you just think they are just going to be able to play the game and not make any mistakes.
That day he probably learnt a lot and it was very tough to play against Brendan Barker who had a very good game for Man City that day. I know that hurt Trent, but what a resilience he has shown, within about four months he had turned around from that and was playing in our first team.
To go and play like he did at Old Trafford was fantastic, I think itās lovely that it was so similar to what had happened with Rob Jones.
Rob Jones is really an unsung hero of the academy and is a good friend of mine. He is such a lovely man and he is there every step of the way for these guys with advice and guidance off the pitch and him to share something like that with Trent, making his full debut for Liverpool at Old Trafford is very unique and I was really pleased for Rob as well as for Trent because, it shows everyone is working together.
Rob, Steve McManaman and Robbie Fowler all came back to the academy and had a role mentoring. How did it go? Was it valuable to the players? Did they respond?
If you ever get chance to meet one of your idols, you want them to be as nice a person as you love them as a player on the pitch, itās not always the case but with them guys it was 100 percent.
It was hard to tell Macca he was one of my idols as a kid because now you work with him as a grown man you donāt want to come across as being a bit soppy but these people are fantastic.
I took a meal with Rob Jones and Steve McManaman before I left. They took the time to have lunch with me, Robbie Fowler sent me messages and the king Kenny came to see me. Wow, he takes your breath away for the icon that he is but the man he is as well. Kenny Dalglish is up there with anyone with the highest respect.
Their work at the academy is very important. As it has been highlighted, we donāt share the same training ground as the first team and Alex Inglethorpe has been fantastic at bringing these people back and I think it takes a very intelligent man and confident man to bring these icons back into the club with no worry and the only thing he is worried about is the development of the players.
Itās been a pleasure for me to know them, I was delighted to be involved with the idea of asking Steven [Gerrard] to come back and something I was greatly excited about and I wanted him to work closely with me because I know what he can offer.
I repeat that Alex deserves big praise for that, thereās too many people in football and other industries that are happy to not do things like that and keeping themselves as king. All he wants is to develop the players and these guys come in and they donāt coach, Steven is going to coach, but they are around the session adding some support and I think thatās fantastic.
They give up time very freely but they have their own families and work commitments elsewhere. It just feels like a family, its the easiest way to put it. Chelsea was a different experience for me and it never had that feel. Every time one of the players gets through itās really celebrated, everyone is jumping up and down celebrating. But then the next day we work hard. Itās not a case of resting on our laurels; we celebrate the moment and then we move forward the next day.
How do you see Steven Gerardās role at the academy? What sort of impact do you think it might have on a 14-15-year-old player that has Gerrard coaching him for a session or two?
I think itās fantastic for everyone. Firstly for the players its a huge inspiration a lot of them would have grown up as Gerrard as their idol and to see he is an honest person thatās just like that coming from the same area as them, working hard like them.
He can give them advice both on the pitch and off the pitch because heās lots to give to these young players and Steven would have had to manage that situation as well so can give them advice about life. Think of all the life experience he has had travelling with England and Liverpool, playing in big games against big opponents.
He can talk about all of that and he can break the game down as well. I think itās very, very exciting for the players. I think for Steven it is perfect.
I think a lot of ex-players rush and probably get other people around them to fill the gaps in, they go to be a manager and take people they know who are coaches to fill the gaps, what Steven is doing should be applauded because he actually a player thatās going back to working with young players and doesnāt want to skip anything and wants to tread the same path as a coach as he did as a player.
I think thats absolutely fantastic and speaks volumes for him as a person. It would have been a lot easier for him to take a first team job and try to just do well but he has really thought it out.
I think itās lovely that he has got some ex-teammates around him ā Tom Culshaw, Mike Garrett, Michael Yates. These people actually played with him when he was coming through the academy, Ian Dunbavin. They were all with him when he was coming through so he is working with friends rather than colleagues so he will learn from his friends.
So the information and the conversations and the learning is much freer. Letās not forget Steve Heighway is there who was his mentor as a player as well.
So for Steven the opportunity is great for him to learn from these people. For the club I think itās important; he is a Liverpool boy, he gave so much to the club and the club gave so much to him and in this agreement I think it will be the same now.
Nobody is making any predication on āwill he be manager?ā Who knows, he may want to be like Steve Heighway and be head of youth.
For me, the doors to Liverpool academy should always have been open to Steven and I applaud the people for making sure they were. I am just jealous I am not there to work alongside him and to help him and for him to help me because it would be fantastic.
There was an interview with Klopp recently and he stated there was a āspecial kidā, perhaps in the U16s/U18s, do you have any idea who that might be?
Thereās three or four, I donāt want to upset the other three by only naming one and I also donāt want to put the academy staff or the boys parents under pressure.
A year ago, if he had said there was a special one going through the academy then no one would know who that is now because you could have said it was Ovie [Ejaria], was it Trent, was it Ben [Woodburn], was it Harry Wilson.
I think thereās a lot of good players, but each player has got to be given his own time and development. They are not all ready at the same time. The prime example of that is seeing Ryan Kent, Sheyi Ojo and Harry Wilson excite us for the last few years and Sheyi got there first then Ryan and Ovie and Harry came slightly later.
Itās all about when you are ready rather than being rushed. The hope is that these boys, its not how quick you get there, its how long you stay there.
Rhian Brewster started for the first time for the U23s recently ā can you tell us about his game? His style of play?
Iāve know Rhian since he was five/six years old. I remember the first time I saw him it was at Redbridge leisure centre of The Only Way Is Essex fame, that sort of area of London.
I went across on a Monday evening with another coach and scout and we ran a little development programme and Rhian came with his team and we took four players that night into Chelsea. Three of them are still there and are FA Youth Cup winners.
Rhian I kept in touch with. His dad, Ian, has always been a huge Liverpool fan, thereās not a bigger Liverpool fan in the south. Whenever they play, he is always on the phone and texting about the U23s or the first team, he is a crazy Liverpool fan.
The opportunity for him and his son, as a Liverpool fan, to come to Liverpool at 14 was fantastic and itās lovely for me to see him developing. I have known him for over 10 years now, I feel a little guilty that I wasnāt there to work with him day-in and day-out but I am still very close to them as a family and Rhian just needs time.
If you look at him he is very lean and very much like Trent but two years younger. Very lean and needs time to fill out but he is very quick and scores lots of different types of goals.
His finishing is excellent and very clinical and calm. He is not just a number 9, he can play 10 or on the sides and be equally effective. I think he has an outstanding future.
However, he needs time as he has just turned 17 last month. Itās not a time to rush, and again if you look at his body shape to Ben Woodburn, they are different 17 years old thats for sure. This is not āoh he is 17 and Ben did this, so we should push Rhian forward,ā I think all the players need to take their time and their own paths.
Do you have any intention to build a relationship between Liverpool and Sao Paulo? Could it be that you recommend a player to Liverpool?
I would definitely recommend a player to Liverpool, other than any one else, thatās for sure. I know Liverpool have their own scouts in South America, they are people that Iāve worked with in the past, with players coming in ā like Allan Rodriguez.
For sure if they wanted an opinion on a player at another club and asked for that opinion then I would be very honest with them. There is a lot of talent in Brazil, it is a very competitive market. All the big clubs in Europe are looking at young players in Brazil.
My working relationship with Alex and Pepijn and is so strong that of course if they asked for my advice I would be there for them, but in terms of a formal link itās difficult. Sao Paulo are not a smaller club then Liverpool, they have a 67,000 seater stadium and have won the World Club championships three times. Both clubs are huge in their own right but certainly in terms of advice on players from Europe I would give to Sao Paulo and vice versa for Liverpool.
We were talking earlier about Melwood and the academy not being on the same site ā how beneficial do you think that will be in bringing players through and integrating them to be in the first team?
I think thereās been a lot of measures in place to make it as close as it can be. Sometimes you can have 20 meters but if the first team staff are not interested in the academy then that can feel like 20 miles.
The small drive from Melwood to the academy doesnāt seem big because the two managers I worked under were genuinely interested in developing the young players and also Alex has been very good at bringing in ex-players/managers to make sure they are mentored and make sure they have big brothers or dads around.
Itās much easier if you are on the same site though. The U23 players arenāt the oldest players, the oldest players are the first team players. If the first team players drive the behaviours and the standards then it brings up the young players very easy.
In time the club deserve to have the one facility and everything that comes with it.
Things like trying to implement the style of the first team manager into the first team and dripping down to the other teams would be much quicker if you are on the same site.
Communication would not be over the phone, it would be face to face ā and in any walk of life were you can have a face to face conversation it is better than over the phone because you can completely understand by reading the facial expressions or seeing the person face to face what they mean.
I think Pepijn going to the first team and being a bridge between Alex, myself and the younger coaches was a masterstroke too. I think the owners to accept that idea and make that idea a reality was a big step to building the bridge.
As I said Iāve worked at a previous club where there was 10 meters between the two and it felt like it was ten miles!