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      Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?

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      solodee
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      Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Feb 22, 2010 09:46:00 pm
      I noticed something quite odd in the match against man City. Gerrard had a short spell of brilliance and for the most part of the game, it seemed to me like he wasn't really excited playing with the quality of squad he had to play with.

      Suddenly:

      Torres comes in and I saw a swift change in attitude towards the game. Gerrard started making some daring runs and hot passes even some show-boating passes found their way into his game. All well and good.

      My worry is this?

      Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership affected Gerrard's game negatively? Has he reconditioned his mind to feed fully, the Torres-partnership at the expense of being the best attacking midfielder in the world?

      Every pundit and their grandmothers tend to push the false conclusion that it is the partnership that carries the entire team as the rest of the players are middle-of-the-table class players. Has that play any role in Gerrard's attitude towards the game?

      The partnership has also limited inimically, our options upfront. We have come to rely predominantly on the two players playing well; is that good for an long term Liverpool FC plans?

      I can remember Alex Ferguson saying at the beginning of this season that our dependence on Gerrard and Torres solely meant we were not a threat this season.

      Is there another way forward without asking for a new owner of manager?
      « Last Edit: Feb 23, 2010 01:36:30 am by JD, Reason: Title amended: Partner -> Partnership »
      DC
      • Forum John Toshack
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partner hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #1: Feb 22, 2010 09:56:57 pm
      Another way forward? How about another forward!
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partner hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #2: Feb 22, 2010 10:03:57 pm
      Another way forward? How about another forward!

      Just like goal keepers will rather continue to play in the Championship League than get signed to Liverpool FC because of Reina, quality strikers will have the same problem competing with the "Partnership".
      albertared
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partner hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #3: Feb 22, 2010 10:08:03 pm
      Good questions. I have found myself, at times, thinking that Gerrard was noticeably excited when Torres arrived at the club and that this season, since the loss of Alonso and with the absences of Torres, that his attitude has been distinctly suspect.

      Sometimes this really annoys me about him, he is the captain after all, but I also sympathise with him. Let's face it, he KNOWS that we are not good enougjh to fulfill his, and our, dream of the title unless we are at full strength and that obviously includes Nando.

      So, the answer is that, yes, we are too reliant on Gerrard and Torres but it is not that in itself that has hurt our goals. We just need more and better players to go with them.
      DC
      • Forum John Toshack
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partner hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #4: Feb 22, 2010 10:12:26 pm
      Just like goal keepers will rather continue to play in the Championship League than get signed to Liverpool FC because of Reina, quality strikers will have the same problem competing with the "Partnership".

      The amount of injuries that Torres and Gerrard get between them, another world class striker, who's less injury prone, would probably get more pitch time than those two.
      But the champions league is a good point, if we're not in it, then we might struggle to attract anybody.
      SpionKop88
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partner hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #5: Feb 22, 2010 10:21:11 pm
      The amount of injuries that Torres and Gerrard get between them, another world class striker, who's less injury prone, would probably get more pitch time than those two.
      But the champions league is a good point, if we're not in it, then we might struggle to attract anybody.

      If only we had owners who were willing to shell out the doh for a world class striker.....

      why do i get the feeling that every thread, in some way or another, relates back to twit & tw*t??

      f*cking useless good for nothing wan*ers
      MrKite
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partner hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #6: Feb 22, 2010 10:37:34 pm
      Good thread. I personally believe the Torres factor has in some way harmed our progress. It's nothing to do with Fernando Torres but mostly to do with Rafa Benitez and the relative cold shouldering of the once good strikers we had at the club like Crouch and co since Fernando joined us. When Torres gets injured - Benitez believes that N'Gog is good enough. That is just not good enough I feel.
      wallbanger
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partner hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #7: Feb 22, 2010 10:58:30 pm
      put pacheo into the mix liven things up
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partner hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #8: Feb 23, 2010 01:06:58 am
      Good thread. I personally believe the Torres factor has in some way harmed our progress. It's nothing to do with Fernando Torres but mostly to do with Rafa Benitez and the relative cold shouldering of the once good strikers we had at the club like Crouch and co since Fernando joined us. When Torres gets injured - Benitez believes that N'Gog is good enough. That is just not good enough I feel.

      Insightful. Good post.
      MIRO
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partner hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #9: Feb 23, 2010 01:26:19 am
      Any reasonable team needs four quality strikers.
      Look at Spurs.

      Crouchie going from us was a disaster.


      No. It hasnt hurt our long terms goals. They are world class and have carried us.
      Otherwise we would be a mid table team........which we still just could be unless

      ...we have four quality strikers.
      JD
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #10: Feb 23, 2010 01:41:39 am
      Crouchie going from us was a disaster.

      So was Ian Rush.

      Maybe we should imprison players who want to leave?
      7-King Kenny-7
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #11: Feb 23, 2010 01:48:32 am
      Any reasonable team needs four quality strikers.
      Look at Spurs.


      Other than Defoe they aren't really scoring goals though. Crouch only has 5 league goals in 26 games, Keane couldn't even get in the team, Pavlyuchenko hardly plays and Gudjohnson has hardly been a revelation so far.
      Adryan
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #12: Feb 23, 2010 08:27:14 am
      I have thought of this before.

      The Gerrard-Torres partnership worked extremely well in 2007/2008. However, it hasn't looked the same in seasons after that. Gerrard does look disinterested when Torres isn't on the pitch.

      I may be wrong but I think it's not effective anymore and Rafa is still continuing to build the team around that partnership.
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #13: Feb 23, 2010 08:50:47 am
      I have thought of this before.

      The Gerrard-Torres partnership worked extremely well in 2007/2008. However, it hasn't looked the same in seasons after that. Gerrard does look disinterested when Torres isn't on the pitch.

      I may be wrong but I think it's not effective anymore and Rafa is still continuing to build the team around that partnership.

      Good Post.

      It s not the presence of Torres and Gerrard in the team that is being questioned here. Any team will be better-off with the two players in the squad. Its the partnership that has limited extremely, our formation and striking option upfront that is being questioned. I dare add that it has also limited our exploits in the market during the transfer windows.

      We build the team around the partnership that has been uncoded by every other team; Stop Gerrard-Isolate Torres. Simple. The manager is unwilling to try any other striking partnership. Imagine a Torres/Benayoun, a Torres/Kuyt, or a Torres/Babel, a Torres/Pacheco.

      Gerrard has received sticks from a lot of fans on this forum. Surprised how no one has commented on the way his game improved the moment Torres came on. He is more excited to play when torres is there on the pitch. Not good for team spirit and game play.
       
      « Last Edit: Feb 23, 2010 09:11:04 am by solodee »
      Reprobate
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #14: Feb 23, 2010 10:29:40 am
      Stop Gerrard-Isolate Torres. Simple.

      Err yeah, simple. ;D
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #15: Feb 23, 2010 03:27:17 pm

      Don't you agree? ;D
      flafson
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #16: Feb 23, 2010 03:37:09 pm
      Maybe Gerrard likes to play with his buddies?

      So if his buddies are Torres, Kuyt and Benayoun, and he started playing with only one buddy then he got excited later on when he had all his buddies together again?
      Misty
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #17: Feb 23, 2010 03:41:30 pm
      Ok no more quotes from di*khead fergie please!!

      I think it is great that Gerrard gets excited when Torres is playing-    man love at its best!

      But i agree his head goes down when Torres is not there- but its not only torres-   This season without Benayoun, Johnson- as well as torres, and Mascherano when he gets booked too much!  These are our best players!!  I dont blame him- didnt our heads go down too this season?!

      When we have a full squad- i think Gerrard enjoys playing- but with a half-arse squad?!  
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #18: Feb 23, 2010 04:31:33 pm
      Maybe Gerrard likes to play with his buddies?

      So if his buddies are Torres, Kuyt and Benayoun, and he started playing with only one buddy then he got excited later on when he had all his buddies together again?

      Sounds dirrtyy!


      Ok no more quotes from di*khead fergie please!!

      I think it is great that Gerrard gets excited when Torres is playing-    man love at its best!

      WOW!

      - but with a half-arse squad?!   

      Sorry?! - Half arse squad

      Liverpool FC squad can never be referred to as half arse.

      World Class Keeper: Pepe Reina

      Defence Line up: Johnson, Carragher, Agger, Kyrgiakos, Skrtel, Aurelio, Kelly, Degen, Insua. - Any team will be excited to boast of this line-up

      Midfield: Mascherano, Lucas, Benayoun, Riera, Kuyt, Plessis, Babel, Maxi - Effective for our formation and game play. Brilliant 4 always available

      Attackers: Torres, Gerrard, Ngog, Pacheco - A good line up

      This squad can hardly be called half arse . Even when you take out the people in bold, you still have a strong squad.
      racerx34
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #19: Feb 23, 2010 04:36:51 pm
      Good post.

      I think it must be difficult for Gerrard. We were so close last year with a stronger squad and less injury worries. In his own mind he must have been looking forward to building on last year and fulfilling his dream of winning trophies with Liverpool.

      Now jump to this year. Alonso gone... Torres, Johnson, Benayoun, Mascherano all out for spells. Sometimes he must have looked around this year and felt a world away from the quality team he was in last year. It wouldn't be unreasonable for him to think at some point that the team had peaked.

      That alone would be enough at his age to dishearten him. He has carried us enough times to expect to see people around him that could do the same. At times this year without the aforementioned it would be very easy for him to have doubts.

      Hopefully with Torres and Benayoun back and seeing Pacheco, Aquilani, Johnson and Kelly in training reinstalls his believe in where the club is heading and helps him get back to what he does best. Bossing a football game.

      For the record though I would like to see him drop back to midfield for the remainder of the season with Aquilani/Pacheco in the hole
      Reckon Torres/Pacheco is the pairing teams will have nightmares about next year.
      shabbadoo
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #20: Feb 23, 2010 04:40:11 pm
      What it has done it has made us very predictable.
      I would prefer the 4-1-3-2 formation as of the 4-2-3-1.
      Torres needs support up front.
      Pepe Reina
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #21: Feb 23, 2010 04:40:44 pm
      Who wouldn't get excited when the world's best striker comes on for your team?
      racerx34
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #22: Feb 23, 2010 04:42:54 pm
      Id like to see a rotating line of three attackers in behind Torres with Gerrard in midfield with Mascherano.
      Would make it much harder for teams to just pick up people and stop us playing... ala Alonso Gerrard
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #23: Feb 23, 2010 09:45:18 pm
                         Reina

      Johnson Carragher Kyrgiakos Agger

              Mascherano Gerrard

      Benayoun                     Riera

                       Babel

                       Torres

      This might work some Magic.
      hobbithead
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #24: Feb 23, 2010 10:00:12 pm
      Correct.

      We need a formation with tactics that suit all our players, not just two of them
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #25: Feb 23, 2010 11:06:44 pm
      Correct.

      We need a formation with tactics that suit all our players, not just two of them

      Brilliant Post.

      bartman49
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #26: Feb 23, 2010 11:50:23 pm
      I can't believe all I am reading here, Torres harming our progress so I'll blame Benites for selling crouch, where do you get this stuff from. Stevie maybe is having a bad season, he has carried us for a while now so he gets the leeway to have a bad season, anyone ever think, he's been in and out the team with injuries that maybe he is finding it tough coming back again, I am sure we shall see the best of Stevie soon along with the rest of the team before much longer, I am positive we will qualify for the CL, that's if we have no more bad injuries to our best players.
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #27: Feb 24, 2010 12:10:38 am
      I can't believe all I am reading here, Torres harming our progress so I'll blame Benites for selling crouch, where do you get this stuff from. Stevie maybe is having a bad season, he has carried us for a while now so he gets the leeway to have a bad season, anyone ever think, he's been in and out the team with injuries that maybe he is finding it tough coming back again, I am sure we shall see the best of Stevie soon along with the rest of the team before much longer, I am positive we will qualify for the CL, that's if we have no more bad injuries to our best players.

      Totally missed the whole point. No one said all you alleged was said.
      macca8
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #28: Feb 24, 2010 07:16:53 am
      The problem lies not in both Gerrard and Torres but how the whole team operated with or without them both. Last season even without Gerrard or Torres or both, we still managed to score goals and won most of our games but now it seems like we're couldn't create chances or even score more than 2 on some games.

      The future progress of Liverpool doesn't lie on both Gerrard/Torres combination, but how well the others adapt to the game and allowing either Torres or Gerrard to be more creative and create lots of goals. When injuries hit our team, we didn't have ample cover to provide the extra boost we needed thus we lost more games than expected. it's not that we didn't play well but we're unable to change the game. We didn't have the flair and creativity to change the flow of the game. On some times we even let opponent dictate our game.

      Now it's the time to put more faith in youngsters. Give Pacheco or Kelly more playing time and see how they change our destiny!
      bartman49
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #29: Feb 24, 2010 11:11:08 am
      Totally missed the whole point. No one said all you alleged was said.

      It was not meant as a serious point, but one many buy into.
      Redmen
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #30: Feb 24, 2010 11:11:47 am
      I personally think when Gerrard and Torres are fit they should continue the way they play together currently after all they are 2 of the best players in world football, so no i cant see how this has hampered our prgress.

      The problem for me lies simply in not having an adequate replacement for either that would allow us to play the current formation.

      IMO if one is missing there is no where near the same link up play or threat between either Gerrard/Ngog or Kuyt/Torres etc. Therefor i dont think the system works unless they are both playing there together.

      Even if we still had Crouch or Keane or whoever the system wouldnt work so we have to be able to adapt our formation slightly, but thats an arguement for another thread.  ;D
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #31: Feb 24, 2010 11:29:42 am
      I personally think when Gerrard and Torres are fit they should continue the way they play together currently after all they are 2 of the best players in world football, so no I cant see how this has hampered our prgress.

      The problem for me lies simply in not having an adequate replacement for either that would allow us to play the current formation.

      IMO if one is missing there is no where near the same link up play or threat between either Gerrard/Ngog or Kuyt/Torres etc. Therefor I dont think the system works unless they are both playing there together.

      Even if we still had Crouch or Keane or whoever the system wouldnt work so we have to be able to adapt our formation slightly, but thats an arguement for another thread.  ;D

      To put your comments plain and simple is to point a finger at the manager.

      How can a team be too tied to a formation that builds the entire team around the partnership that exists between two players? Where is the room for expression of game-play by the the likes of Benayoun, Babel, and Lucas whom we bought as a goal-scoring attacking midfielder?.
      Misty
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #32: Feb 24, 2010 10:16:30 pm
      Im sorry- i didnt mean it like that!!

      Just when only 5 or 6 of our first team choices are playing- with Gerrard-  Its not ideal is it??

      Must admit when i heard Torres, Gerrard, Benayoun & Johnson we all going to be out at the same time- i thought Ohhh sh*te!!

      More of a make-shift team than half arse?!!
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #33: Feb 25, 2010 01:32:44 am
      I think when Nando's not on, Gerrard at centre-back, no Lucas, when Nando's on - put Gerrard in behind him - but put Masch and Aquilani centre-back, Aurelio/Riera left, and Benny/Babel right - they switch anyway - but Gerrard needs to go back to centre-mid is my moral of the story
      Reprobate
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #34: Feb 25, 2010 07:29:40 am
      I think when Nando's not on, Gerrard at centre-back, no Lucas, when Nando's on - put Gerrard in behind him - but put Masch and Aquilani centre-back, Aurelio/Riera left, and Benny/Babel right - they switch anyway - but Gerrard needs to go back to centre-mid is my moral of the story
      I'm hoping you mean Central Midfield rather than Centre-back, ;D
      jindaldhruv
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #35: Feb 25, 2010 07:46:22 am
      Yeah, I think without Nando, we really should go for Stevie G in midfield and two up-front.
      Ofcourse with Nando in the side, I'm happy with our 4-2-3-1 setup.
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #36: Feb 25, 2010 09:51:22 am
      I think playing Benayoun behind Torres would work just as well, with his quick feet and brain he could get Torres in on goal more often.
      I would put Gerrard in centre midfield to start the attack off and to stop the counter attack.
      Redmen
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #37: Feb 25, 2010 10:07:49 am
      To put your comments plain and simple is to point a finger at the manager.

      How can a team be too tied to a formation that builds the entire team around the partnership that exists between two players? Where is the room for expression of game-play by the the likes of Benayoun, Babel, and Lucas whom we bought as a goal-scoring attacking midfielder?.

      When it comes to tactics and formation then of course thats the managers decisions however being one of Rafas biggest fans im behind whatever he decides. I just disagree with Rafas insistence on sticking with the way we play when Stevie and Nando are not playing together, we should be able to adapt rather than being so rigid in our formation but as i previously said im verging on another thread here.
      Reprobate
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #38: Feb 25, 2010 01:18:52 pm
      I think playing Benayoun behind Torres would work just as well, with his quick feet and brain he could get Torres in on goal more often.
      I would put Gerrard in centre midfield to start the attack off and to stop the counter attack.
      That would be my personal preference as well, not that it will happen.
      Boot
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #39: Feb 25, 2010 01:25:32 pm
      I personally think when Gerrard and Torres are fit they should continue the way they play together currently after all they are 2 of the best players in world football, so no I cant see how this has hampered our prgress.

      The problem for me lies simply in not having an adequate replacement for either that would allow us to play the current formation.

      IMO if one is missing there is no where near the same link up play or threat between either Gerrard/Ngog or Kuyt/Torres etc. Therefor I dont think the system works unless they are both playing there together.

      Even if we still had Crouch or Keane or whoever the system wouldnt work so we have to be able to adapt our formation slightly, but thats an arguement for another thread.  ;D

      I think your spot on the money!

      We should have a squad in which like-for-like players can be swapped.  I remember when Rafa joined that he wanted 3 players for each position. 2 World class players and a youth player and be in a position where we could lose a player or rest a player and the formula still works.

      We are not in that position, far from it i'm afraid to say. 
      racerx34
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #40: Feb 25, 2010 02:06:16 pm
      I think your spot on the money!

      We should have a squad in which like-for-like players can be swapped.  I remember when Rafa joined that he wanted 3 players for each position. 2 World class players and a youth player and be in a position where we could lose a player or rest a player and the formula still works.

      We are not in that position, far from it I'm afraid to say. 

      I think as far as the point you make regarding players for positions are concerned we are probably further away now then we have ever been in that regard. In fairness though barring Rafa wins Euromillions that wont change anytime soon. Looking forward to how well the system works with all the players nearing fitnes for the first time since the start of the season
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #41: Feb 26, 2010 06:33:59 am
      We have more than enough cover for the defence with the following players fit: Carragher, Johnson, Kyrgiakos, Skrtel, Agger, Insua, Kelly, Ayala, Degen.

      The midfield is really good too with the following players fit: Mascherano, Lucas, Aquilani, Plessis.

      The Wings has more than enough cover too: Benayoun, Babel, Riera, Maxi, Kuyt, El Zhar.

      Where we need more is in the Attack: Gerrard, Torres, Ngog, Pacheco.
      Reprobate
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #42: Feb 26, 2010 08:55:51 am
      Where we need more is in the Attack: Gerrard, Torres, Ngog, Pacheco.
      You could add Kuyt, Babel and (at a push) Maxi to that list.

      I'm not disagreeing that we need more though.
      racerx34
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #43: Feb 26, 2010 09:49:10 am
      We have more than enough cover for the defence with the following players fit: Carragher, Johnson, Kyrgiakos, Skrtel, Agger, Insua, Kelly, Ayala, Degen.

      The midfield is really good too with the following players fit: Mascherano, Lucas, Aquilani, Plessis.

      The Wings has more than enough cover too: Benayoun, Babel, Riera, Maxi, Kuyt, El Zhar.

      Where we need more is in the Attack: Gerrard, Torres, Ngog, Pacheco.

      Ultimately we cant properly judge the strenght of the team til the likes of Aquilani and Johnson can fight for a place on a regular basis.
      Even just having Benayoun back made a big difference last night but ideally I would like to see two or three quality players brought in next year.
      Financially though we will probably be restricted to Kelly and Pacheco becoming more prominent in the team accompanied by a forward and thats not too bad either
      ORCHARD RED
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #44: Feb 27, 2010 12:46:53 am
      When we have a fully fit squad to chose from we wont be as reliant on Gerrard and Torres.
      Tayls
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #45: Feb 27, 2010 12:07:32 pm
      Considering that the we haven't really seen the Gerrard/Torres partnership this season due to injuries to the both of them, it's a little unfair to say that they're hurting our 'long term goals'. Nor should you criticise Benitez for trying to play two of his best players (and two of the best players in the world) in a way that shows off their consummate skill. However you could argue that without Torres, Stevie is a lot less effective dropping off the striker, as the players we've had to play up front this season (N'gog, Kuyt mainly), don't stretch the game in the same way Torres can. N'gog perhaps has shown signs of this, but you can't put him anywhere near the same class as Fernando.

      I don't believe it's harming any part of the club whatsoever, and whilst we shouldn't play a formation just to accommodate our two best players, I don't think we are. In general a 4-5-1 (or 4-3-3 if Rafa's feeling adventurous) seems to be a good fit. It was the formation we hit on last season late on, and look at our results there. I think perhaps that's because we had a lot of confidence and were attacking teams at pace, whereas now we're hamstrung by injuries and lacking confidence, so we aren't moving the ball around quickly enough, or attacking directly enough.

      It's not the formation or the manager, or the partnership between Torres and Gerrard that's causing issues at present, it's the players performance. I honestly think it's almost entirely down to them to pick themselves up and play some F***ing good football, and whilst you can argue it's the manager's job to keep the players happy, playing them in the right position etc, ultimately it comes down to the players to perform on the pitch, and regardless of what formation we've played, or what combination of El Nino and Stevie we've had playing, pretty much the whole team has underperformed. 
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #46: Feb 27, 2010 02:36:32 pm
      Couldn't ever say the Gerrard/Torres partnership has hurt our long term goals for the simple reason both players could be widely regarded as the top players in their position in the premiership possibly even the world, so it goes with out saying the manager will build his team/formation/tactics around such players.

      The only thing IMO that hurts our long term goals is Rafa's persistence in sticking with the same formation when Torres and Gerrard are injured and expecting players of much lower quality to come in and do a similar job. as an example N'Gog struggles when starting as a lone striker although he has a good goal return he could never be considered as world class or a match winner of Nando's quality. Sp IMO to achieve our long term goals with the current squad, we need a plan B/change of formation that suits the selected players strengths/weaknesses for when players of Stevies and Nando's Ilk are injured.
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #47: Feb 28, 2010 05:38:50 pm
      Today's game is a typical example of what Gerrard could offer playing deep in the midfield. Accurate passes, Vision and clinical goals!
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #48: Mar 01, 2010 08:33:32 am
      Couldn't ever say the Gerrard/Torres partnership has hurt our long term goals for the simple reason both players could be widely regarded as the top players in their position in the premiership possibly even the world, so it goes with out saying the manager will build his team/formation/tactics around such players.

      The only thing IMO that hurts our long term goals is Rafa's persistence in sticking with the same formation when Torres and Gerrard are injured and expecting players of much lower quality to come in and do a similar job. as an example N'Gog struggles when starting as a lone striker although he has a good goal return he could never be considered as world class or a match winner of Nando's quality. Sp IMO to achieve our long term goals with the current squad, we need a plan B/change of formation that suits the selected players strengths/weaknesses for when players of Stevies and Nando's Ilk are injured.

      Came on here to say just that ^^^ but more eloquently, of course.  ;D

      All teams should play to their strengths and be prepared to adapt when things go tits up. Even when other teams had 'rumbled' our tatics they still had to cope with the individual brilliance of both Nando and Stevie. When they were absent.....well.

      As Blood states; without one, the other, or both in a system that's been 'rumbled' life becomes difficult. It's times like this that we need to look to our (remaining) strengths. In a weakened team the 'two holding'/lone striker set up has not been working.

      In short; without the Gerrard/Torres partnership we are worse and this will remain to be the case for as long as the belief and insistence remains that the system Rafa plays can be as effective without them.

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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #49: Mar 02, 2010 09:58:06 am
      No matter how good both players are, we have won F**k all since torres join Liverpool.

      The reason is most of our other players rely too much on the partnership and if one or both are injured, they seem to not know what to do.
      Adryan
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #50: Mar 02, 2010 10:12:12 am
      The system worked well in Torres' first season and relatively well in the second. I mean, when teams close either one of them down, we don't really have a second back-up plan.

      I mean, I would really love the Gerrard-Torres to go on forever but it's almost as though Rafa is building a team around a fading effective partnership. By always wanting Stevie behind the striker, we are limiting the players we are able to buy. We probably won't get another striker.

      Right now, the partnership only brings fear on sheet because of the names Gerrard and Torres but it's been quite awhile since I see them play parts in each other's goals.
      Reprobate
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #51: Mar 02, 2010 04:40:57 pm
      I mean, I would really love the Gerrard-Torres to go on forever but it's almost as though Rafa is building a team around a fading effective partnership. By always wanting Stevie behind the striker, we are limiting the players we are able to buy. We probably won't get another striker.
      Except Jovanovanovich. Then again, he's probably being lined up for a position at Left Back or something  :roll:
      solodee
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #52: Mar 03, 2010 04:17:09 pm
      I think the partnership affects Rafa's transfer market decisions. It also affects the input of other strikers in the team.
      LondonRed
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #53: Mar 18, 2010 10:16:17 pm
      not tonight
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #54: Mar 18, 2010 10:17:28 pm
      Red Kenny
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #55: Mar 18, 2010 10:28:27 pm
      Torres back to his best. Hopefully 3 on Sunday please! Vidic your nightmare has come back to haunt you!
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #56: Mar 18, 2010 10:37:56 pm
      Good opening post and I can see what Solodee is saying.

      I've often felt that Gerrard's body language and demeanour with his team mates has at times been quite negative. I've seen him 'slaughtered' by fellow reds because of this. But put yourself in his shoes for a minute, he has been the heartbeat of LFC now for a decade or so. He, week in week out does his 'roy of the rovers' stuff and has dragged us out of the s.hit on more times than I care to remember.

      Before we signed Torres we mainly relied on Gerrard for game breaking moments now with Torres we rely on him and Gerrard for game breaking moments. Therefore when Gerrard is fielded with Torres he probably looks to Torres in the same way as the rest of the team look to him. Gerrard probably looks to Torres for inspiration and visa versa knowing the quality of each player.

      It probably is discouraging for the two of them when players like Kuyt, Insua, Lucas, Riera ( I can now add him as he is the current panthomime villain) Babel and N'gog play with in the same side. Players know their team mates and what they are capable of or in said players' case, incapable of.

      I don't think Rafa has always spent money wisely in the recent years in aiding the team and captain with quality, he's often gone for quantity even when he's had enough to spend, 30 Million on a couple of players, rather than five. Gerrard is not getting any younger and with the club in it's prediciment with our shameful owners there is hardly any chance of genuine quality coming in over the foreseable future. How discouraging must that be for him, who like most Liverpudlians want LFC to reach the holy grail.
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #57: Mar 18, 2010 10:40:47 pm
      I think the partnership affects Rafa's transfer market decisions. It also affects the input of other strikers in the team.

      Let's be fair we haven't got any other able strikers in the squad Solodee. Who's fault is that?
      crouchinho
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #58: Mar 18, 2010 10:49:52 pm
      Let's be fair we haven't got any other able strikers in the squad Solodee. Who's fault is that?

      A bit of everyone's, you must admit too.

      Rafa and the owners. Both at fault here.
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #59: Mar 18, 2010 10:50:58 pm
      Good opening post and I can see what Solodee is saying.

      I've often felt that Gerrard's body language and demeanour with his team mates has at times been quite negative. I've seen him 'slaughtered' by fellow reds because of this. But put yourself in his shoes for a minute, he has been the heartbeat of LFC now for a decade or so. He, week in week out does his 'roy of the rovers' stuff and has dragged us out of the s.hit on more times than I care to remember.

      Before we signed Torres we mainly relied on Gerrard for game breaking moments now with Torres we rely on him and Gerrard for game breaking moments. Therefore when Gerrard is fielded with Torres he probably looks to Torres in the same way as the rest of the team look to him. Gerrard probably looks to Torres for inspiration and visa versa knowing the quality of each player.

      It probably is discouraging for the two of them when players like Kuyt, Insua, Lucas, Riera ( I can now add him as he is the current panthomime villain) Babel and N'gog play with in the same side. Players know their team mates and what they are capable of or in said players' case, incapable of.

      I don't think Rafa has always spent money wisely in the recent years in aiding the team and captain with quality, he's often gone for quantity even when he's had enough to spend, 30 Million on a couple of players, rather than five. Gerrard is not getting any younger and with the club in it's prediciment with our shameful owners there is hardly any chance of genuine quality coming in over the foreseable future. How discouraging must that be for him, who like most Liverpudlians want LFC to reach the holy grail.

      That is a really good post, mate. Really is.
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      Re: Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?
      Reply #60: Mar 19, 2010 01:25:09 am
      I noticed something quite odd in the match against man City. Gerrard had a short spell of brilliance and for the most part of the game, it seemed to me like he wasn't really excited playing with the quality of squad he had to play with.

      Suddenly:

      Torres comes in and I saw a swift change in attitude towards the game. Gerrard started making some daring runs and hot passes even some show-boating passes found their way into his game. All well and good.

      My worry is this?

      Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership affected Gerrard's game negatively? Has he reconditioned his mind to feed fully, the Torres-partnership at the expense of being the best attacking midfielder in the world?

      Every pundit and their grandmothers tend to push the false conclusion that it is the partnership that carries the entire team as the rest of the players are middle-of-the-table class players. Has that play any role in Gerrard's attitude towards the game?

      The partnership has also limited inimically, our options upfront. We have come to rely predominantly on the two players playing well; is that good for an long term Liverpool FC plans?

      I can remember Alex Ferguson saying at the beginning of this season that our dependence on Gerrard and Torres solely meant we were not a threat this season.

      Is there another way forward without asking for a new owner of manager?

      I don't think Gerrard's game has been limited by Torres, but not for reasons you'd expect.

      I think Gerrard is finally playing with a world class player as good as himself. It's nice when you play with players that are as good as you are. That's why players become attracted to team's like Chelsea, like Real Madrid, Barcelona, the manc sh*te, and until now, usually Us. Gerrard has done almost everything in the game, he's been the superstar. Why does he still come to training? Just because he's the Captain? Do you think he's the still the wide eyed young lad that put on the practice shirt for the first time with the first team? The same kid who was still young, and able to learn, because the wasn't The Man, he was just a kid. A kid who's mouth would still drop after watching a legend score a wonderful goal. A kid who still excited, and astounded by new countries, stadiums, and most importantly, opportunities.

      When you lose, and you get beat bad, and the other team is on their day. You look at those players, you look at their chemistry. You look at their faces when they score, and you want to be them. It doesn't matter what team you're on: why? Because you're amazed by what they can do, and you'd like to be able to do it yourself. The flare is what make's football fun, especially for professionals. Why? It's because they have the greatest job in the world, they play football for a living. But it's still a profession, and they have to play no matter what. What if they're having a tough time at home, and not even the joy of lacing up can take the pain away anymore. Perhaps over that 9 month span every year, it just gets old. The screaming fans, the jet planes, the journalists, the bias announcers, the constant scrutiny, the isolation that comes with being someone that is famous.

      What happens when football isn't that fun anymore?

      How do you get through that, and just do your job? Because hundreds of thousands, even millions, depend on you bossing the midfield, or being the clinical striker, or being the sound defender. And they'll sometimes make your life hell, when you're not.

      Especially when you get fed up with those around you. Gerrard, until arguably this year, has been one of the top 5 (at most 10) players in the world for the last 5 years running. Everyone else has been trying to emulate him. You don't think he gets bored being the best? Being in the spotlight? The go to guy? Why can't anyone else shoulder some of the responsibility. I mean, if he's in the line up, he's expected to be our best player, because he's Steven Gerrard Gerrard. It must be frustrating not being able to have an off day, because no one else on the team can step up consistently when they need to. That's the frustration: when it gets to a point where you're burdening it all because the players around you aren't good enough.

      That's why Torres left Atletico to come to Anfield: He wanted a bigger club. He wanted to play with players that were as good as himself. He wanted to be challenged in training, and not just in matches. That's the only way to get better, and improve.

      Why? Because IT'S FUN! These guys started out playing football, because it was fun. It's nice when you make a mockery of 3 defenders and score a goal, but it's also nice when you see a teammate do the same. It's nice when your own keeper ruins your perfect shot. Or your own defenseman intercepts the perfect pass. Because hopefully when game time comes, they'll be doing that stuff to the other team. It's fun when you have a kick about, and you show off, and even though you're one of the best players in the world, someone else still surprises you.

      Torres and Gerrard are two of the best at what they do, and they enjoy playing with each other. I think that's because they're finally playing with someone who has a spark as bright as their own.

      Stevie almost left us, because he asked himself if Liverpool were good enough, and most importantly would we still be good enough in the future. It's the sort of question that creeps up on you, when you're having a bad day. It's the sort of question that creeps up on you when Insua fucks up at the back, and lets the other team score a daft goal. It's when Lucas does the same at times. Or Skrtel. Or Agger. Then Kuyt misses a golden chance. Ngog flubs one. It comes to mind when we look at the bench, and realize there's no reinforcements available. There's no spark: why? Because they're all in the training room.

      We've been playing with our second, or third choice team for most of the season. Gerrard's not playing with other players of his caliber. It gets frustrating. It's frustrating when you can't understand, why after weeks, months, years, of training, some guys just keep making the same mistakes.

      But then a guy like Torres comes along, and he's as good as, or dare i say, better than Gerrard is. He's fun to play with, because if you're Gerrard, playing with Torres is like playing with the best kids on the playground, when you're still a little guy. The things they do astonish you; they astonish everyone in Torres' case. It just makes the game fun again.

      There's only one phrase that fans hope never crosses a footballer's mind: 'it's just a game'.

      Everyone else can think that, except for your multi million dollar midfielder, or striker.

      You want them to be out there on the pitch enjoying themselves, and having players around them that are most of the time effective and fun to play with. Because nine months a year is a long time to be in the spotlight, especially at such a young age, which is where all footballers start. Torres and Gerrard want the same things. They want to win trophies, they want to play great football, they want to have fun, and enjoy this relatively short period of their lives. So of course they're asking themselves the same question: is the current Liverpool team, with a few tweeks, going to be able to do that?

      I think the results of the season have sounded a profound 'No.' There's an incredible difference in our productivity, and the way we look aesthetically, when Torres and Gerrard are playing, compared to when they're not on the pitch. We have to acknowledge that. What that means is: there's a problem with our depth, that's preventing us from winning trophies. I know it, you know, Torres and Gerrard know it, the journalists, and announcers know it, and the opposing managers know it too.

      But what that really means on ground level, in the dressing room is: Torres and Gerrard want to be able to depend on their teammates, with the same level of intensity that everyone else depends on them.

      It's that simple.

      Thanks for reading, if you read the whole thing. I'm up for debate. God, I just had to get that off my chest.

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