Has the Gerrard/Torres partnership hurt our long term goals?

                   Reina

Johnson Carragher Kyrgiakos Agger

        Mascherano Gerrard

Benayoun                     Riera

                 Babel

                 Torres

This might work some Magic.

Correct.

We need a formation with tactics that suit all our players, not just two of them

Correct.

We need a formation with tactics that suit all our players, not just two of them

Brilliant Post.

I can't believe all I am reading here, Torres harming our progress so I'll blame Benites for selling crouch, where do you get this stuff from. Stevie maybe is having a bad season, he has carried us for a while now so he gets the leeway to have a bad season, anyone ever think, he's been in and out the team with injuries that maybe he is finding it tough coming back again, I am sure we shall see the best of Stevie soon along with the rest of the team before much longer, I am positive we will qualify for the CL, that's if we have no more bad injuries to our best players.

I can't believe all I am reading here, Torres harming our progress so I'll blame Benites for selling crouch, where do you get this stuff from. Stevie maybe is having a bad season, he has carried us for a while now so he gets the leeway to have a bad season, anyone ever think, he's been in and out the team with injuries that maybe he is finding it tough coming back again, I am sure we shall see the best of Stevie soon along with the rest of the team before much longer, I am positive we will qualify for the CL, that's if we have no more bad injuries to our best players.

Totally missed the whole point. No one said all you alleged was said.

The problem lies not in both Gerrard and Torres but how the whole team operated with or without them both. Last season even without Gerrard or Torres or both, we still managed to score goals and won most of our games but now it seems like we're couldn't create chances or even score more than 2 on some games.

The future progress of Liverpool doesn't lie on both Gerrard/Torres combination, but how well the others adapt to the game and allowing either Torres or Gerrard to be more creative and create lots of goals. When injuries hit our team, we didn't have ample cover to provide the extra boost we needed thus we lost more games than expected. it's not that we didn't play well but we're unable to change the game. We didn't have the flair and creativity to change the flow of the game. On some times we even let opponent dictate our game.

Now it's the time to put more faith in youngsters. Give Pacheco or Kelly more playing time and see how they change our destiny!

Totally missed the whole point. No one said all you alleged was said.

It was not meant as a serious point, but one many buy into.

I personally think when Gerrard and Torres are fit they should continue the way they play together currently after all they are 2 of the best players in world football, so no i cant see how this has hampered our prgress.

The problem for me lies simply in not having an adequate replacement for either that would allow us to play the current formation.

IMO if one is missing there is no where near the same link up play or threat between either Gerrard/Ngog or Kuyt/Torres etc. Therefor i dont think the system works unless they are both playing there together.

Even if we still had Crouch or Keane or whoever the system wouldnt work so we have to be able to adapt our formation slightly, but thats an arguement for another thread.  

I personally think when Gerrard and Torres are fit they should continue the way they play together currently after all they are 2 of the best players in world football, so no I cant see how this has hampered our prgress.

The problem for me lies simply in not having an adequate replacement for either that would allow us to play the current formation.

IMO if one is missing there is no where near the same link up play or threat between either Gerrard/Ngog or Kuyt/Torres etc. Therefor I dont think the system works unless they are both playing there together.

Even if we still had Crouch or Keane or whoever the system wouldnt work so we have to be able to adapt our formation slightly, but thats an arguement for another thread.  

To put your comments plain and simple is to point a finger at the manager.

How can a team be too tied to a formation that builds the entire team around the partnership that exists between two players? Where is the room for expression of game-play by the the likes of Benayoun, Babel, and Lucas whom we bought as a goal-scoring attacking midfielder?.

Im sorry- i didnt mean it like that!!

Just when only 5 or 6 of our first team choices are playing- with Gerrard-  Its not ideal is it??

Must admit when i heard Torres, Gerrard, Benayoun & Johnson we all going to be out at the same time- i thought Ohhh sh*te!!

More of a make-shift team than half arse?!!

I think when Nando's not on, Gerrard at centre-back, no Lucas, when Nando's on - put Gerrard in behind him - but put Masch and Aquilani centre-back, Aurelio/Riera left, and Benny/Babel right - they switch anyway - but Gerrard needs to go back to centre-mid is my moral of the story

I think when Nando's not on, Gerrard at centre-back, no Lucas, when Nando's on - put Gerrard in behind him - but put Masch and Aquilani centre-back, Aurelio/Riera left, and Benny/Babel right - they switch anyway - but Gerrard needs to go back to centre-mid is my moral of the story

I'm hoping you mean Central Midfield rather than Centre-back,

Yeah, I think without Nando, we really should go for Stevie G in midfield and two up-front.
Ofcourse with Nando in the side, I'm happy with our 4-2-3-1 setup.

I think playing Benayoun behind Torres would work just as well, with his quick feet and brain he could get Torres in on goal more often.
I would put Gerrard in centre midfield to start the attack off and to stop the counter attack.

To put your comments plain and simple is to point a finger at the manager.

How can a team be too tied to a formation that builds the entire team around the partnership that exists between two players? Where is the room for expression of game-play by the the likes of Benayoun, Babel, and Lucas whom we bought as a goal-scoring attacking midfielder?.

When it comes to tactics and formation then of course thats the managers decisions however being one of Rafas biggest fans im behind whatever he decides. I just disagree with Rafas insistence on sticking with the way we play when Stevie and Nando are not playing together, we should be able to adapt rather than being so rigid in our formation but as i previously said im verging on another thread here.

I think playing Benayoun behind Torres would work just as well, with his quick feet and brain he could get Torres in on goal more often.
I would put Gerrard in centre midfield to start the attack off and to stop the counter attack.

That would be my personal preference as well, not that it will happen.

I personally think when Gerrard and Torres are fit they should continue the way they play together currently after all they are 2 of the best players in world football, so no I cant see how this has hampered our prgress.

The problem for me lies simply in not having an adequate replacement for either that would allow us to play the current formation.

IMO if one is missing there is no where near the same link up play or threat between either Gerrard/Ngog or Kuyt/Torres etc. Therefor I dont think the system works unless they are both playing there together.

Even if we still had Crouch or Keane or whoever the system wouldnt work so we have to be able to adapt our formation slightly, but thats an arguement for another thread. 

I think your spot on the money!

We should have a squad in which like-for-like players can be swapped.  I remember when Rafa joined that he wanted 3 players for each position. 2 World class players and a youth player and be in a position where we could lose a player or rest a player and the formula still works.

We are not in that position, far from it i'm afraid to say. 

I think your spot on the money!

We should have a squad in which like-for-like players can be swapped.  I remember when Rafa joined that he wanted 3 players for each position. 2 World class players and a youth player and be in a position where we could lose a player or rest a player and the formula still works.

We are not in that position, far from it I'm afraid to say. 

I think as far as the point you make regarding players for positions are concerned we are probably further away now then we have ever been in that regard. In fairness though barring Rafa wins Euromillions that wont change anytime soon. Looking forward to how well the system works with all the players nearing fitnes for the first time since the start of the season

We have more than enough cover for the defence with the following players fit: Carragher, Johnson, Kyrgiakos, Skrtel, Agger, Insua, Kelly, Ayala, Degen.

The midfield is really good too with the following players fit: Mascherano, Lucas, Aquilani, Plessis.

The Wings has more than enough cover too: Benayoun, Babel, Riera, Maxi, Kuyt, El Zhar.

Where we need more is in the Attack: Gerrard, Torres, Ngog, Pacheco.

Where we need more is in the Attack: Gerrard, Torres, Ngog, Pacheco.

You could add Kuyt, Babel and (at a push) Maxi to that list.

I'm not disagreeing that we need more though.

We have more than enough cover for the defence with the following players fit: Carragher, Johnson, Kyrgiakos, Skrtel, Agger, Insua, Kelly, Ayala, Degen.

The midfield is really good too with the following players fit: Mascherano, Lucas, Aquilani, Plessis.

The Wings has more than enough cover too: Benayoun, Babel, Riera, Maxi, Kuyt, El Zhar.

Where we need more is in the Attack: Gerrard, Torres, Ngog, Pacheco.

Ultimately we cant properly judge the strenght of the team til the likes of Aquilani and Johnson can fight for a place on a regular basis.
Even just having Benayoun back made a big difference last night but ideally I would like to see two or three quality players brought in next year.
Financially though we will probably be restricted to Kelly and Pacheco becoming more prominent in the team accompanied by a forward and thats not too bad either

When we have a fully fit squad to chose from we wont be as reliant on Gerrard and Torres.

Considering that the we haven't really seen the Gerrard/Torres partnership this season due to injuries to the both of them, it's a little unfair to say that they're hurting our 'long term goals'. Nor should you criticise Benitez for trying to play two of his best players (and two of the best players in the world) in a way that shows off their consummate skill. However you could argue that without Torres, Stevie is a lot less effective dropping off the striker, as the players we've had to play up front this season (N'gog, Kuyt mainly), don't stretch the game in the same way Torres can. N'gog perhaps has shown signs of this, but you can't put him anywhere near the same class as Fernando.

I don't believe it's harming any part of the club whatsoever, and whilst we shouldn't play a formation just to accommodate our two best players, I don't think we are. In general a 4-5-1 (or 4-3-3 if Rafa's feeling adventurous) seems to be a good fit. It was the formation we hit on last season late on, and look at our results there. I think perhaps that's because we had a lot of confidence and were attacking teams at pace, whereas now we're hamstrung by injuries and lacking confidence, so we aren't moving the ball around quickly enough, or attacking directly enough.

It's not the formation or the manager, or the partnership between Torres and Gerrard that's causing issues at present, it's the players performance. I honestly think it's almost entirely down to them to pick themselves up and play some F***ing good football, and whilst you can argue it's the manager's job to keep the players happy, playing them in the right position etc, ultimately it comes down to the players to perform on the pitch, and regardless of what formation we've played, or what combination of El Nino and Stevie we've had playing, pretty much the whole team has underperformed.