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      Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread

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      FATKOPITE10
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7360: Apr 09, 2015 07:12:11 pm
      Mate I think even Rafa himself would be completely baffled at some of the stuff that's been written on here in his support. He wouldn't say, for instance, ''I beat Juventus'', when Napoli won the Supercuppa Italia in Doha. He ain't that kind of guy. He would at least give some credit to his players, and probably the supporters, too. Likewise, would he slam anyone who thought that finishing in a slightly worse off league position, though still possibly winning a cup, might represent a pretty solid effort at Napoli? Would he expect us to say ''absolute f*cking genius'' and honestly believe it if we did? I don't think so because he has more humility than that. It's almost like the Life of Brian.

      in his press conference after the Roma game he did say 'we beat juventus in the super cup although it was in the context of how the season would be viewed, just saying that's all
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7361: Apr 09, 2015 07:24:36 pm
      Would he have signed sign Robbie Keane, Alberto Aquilani, Andrea Dossena if he had another chance? Doubt it.

      A proven Premier League goal scorer season after season, the transfer made a lot of sense but unfortunately didn't work out.

      Aquilani, a player who showed a lot ability in Italy and even when he played for us on the odd occassion he displayed his quality and was linking up really well with Gerrard and Torres. He was haunted by injuries which led to his career massively going down hill but I think people underestimate just how well the Aquilani deal could have worked out had it not been for injuries.

      Dossena, yeah that was bit of a shi**er.

      But yeah I agree, I doubt he would have signed them if he had another option but lets not forget, the 3 main players Rafa wanted were Aguero, Jovetic and Dani Alves but he wasn't given the backing to get them. He could have gotten us Falcao for peanuts before he went to Porto but again wasn't backed. In terms of transfers, you can't say that Rafa didn't want to aim big. If you compare his targets to the targets we have now, there is no comparison that we were after far better players when Rafa was in charge. We were after youngsters that were already making a name for themselves, Alonso, Torres, Masch and others that signed along with Aguero, Alves, Falcao etc all being young but first team standard. There were very few Aspas, Alberto, Borini, Salah type signings/targets.

      Given the proper backing I have no doubts we'd have gone on to win the league under Rafa. Also lets not forget he wanted Suarez too as well as bringing Sterling to the club along with Suso.
      Mad4LFC
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7362: Apr 09, 2015 07:44:00 pm
      A proven Premier League goal scorer season after season, the transfer made a lot of sense but unfortunately didn't work out.

      Aquilani, a player who showed a lot ability in Italy and even when he played for us on the odd occassion he displayed his quality and was linking up really well with Gerrard and Torres. He was haunted by injuries which led to his career massively going down hill but I think people underestimate just how well the Aquilani deal could have worked out had it not been for injuries.

      Dossena, yeah that was bit of a shi**er.

      But yeah I agree, I doubt he would have signed them if he had another option but lets not forget, the 3 main players Rafa wanted were Aguero, Jovetic and Dani Alves but he wasn't given the backing to get them. He could have gotten us Falcao for peanuts before he went to Porto but again wasn't backed. In terms of transfers, you can't say that Rafa didn't want to aim big. If you compare his targets to the targets we have now, there is no comparison that we were after far better players when Rafa was in charge. We were after youngsters that were already making a name for themselves, Alonso, Torres, Masch and others that signed along with Aguero, Alves, Falcao etc all being young but first team standard. There were very few Aspas, Alberto, Borini, Salah type signings/targets.

      Given the proper backing I have no doubts we'd have gone on to win the league under Rafa. Also lets not forget he wanted Suarez too as well as bringing Sterling to the club along with Suso.

      You see this is the myth re Rafa that some people cannot fathom, you seem to forget

      Nunez
      Gonzalez
      Josemi
      Paletta
      Leto
      Aquilani
      Voronin
      Babel
      Insua
      Dossena
      Cavaliera
      Kyriagkos

      These just of the top of my head.




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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7363: Apr 09, 2015 07:52:52 pm
      You see this is the myth re Rafa that some people cannot fathom, you seem to forget

      Nunez
      Gonzalez
      Josemi
      Paletta
      Leto
      Aquilani
      Voronin
      Babel
      Insua
      Dossena
      Cavaliera
      Kyriagkos

      These just of the top of my head.






      Well I've already said about Aquilani...

      Cavalieri was a half decent back up keeper, certainly a lot better than what we have had since he left.
      Babel was a very big prospect but had the wrong attitude
      Sotis started dodgy but then came pretty good, was scoring goals and defending well
      Insua was supposed to be a massive payer but didn't come good

      But yeah the others did seem a bit pointless. What I will add though is the Gonzalez one was strange, spent a long time getting him to the club, he didn't have a poor season by any means and showed a bit of potential but then we got rid after a season. Never quite understood what that was all about.

      But the key thing about those players is they weren't a massive amount of money, where as you look at Borini, Balotelli, Lovren and Allen to name a few and they were all getting on for around £15mill+.

      For every bad signing Rafa made there was a Kuyt for around £10mill, Alonso £10mill, Garcia and Reina around £6mill, Torres for £26mill, Masch £17mill. How have we spent such money since?
      stuey
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7364: Apr 09, 2015 09:22:11 pm
      You see this is the myth re Rafa that some people cannot fathom, you seem to forget


      These just of the top of my head.

      Our 5th CL trophy - off the top of my head.

      « Last Edit: Apr 09, 2015 09:59:01 pm by stuey »
      Mad4LFC
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7365: Apr 09, 2015 09:32:38 pm
      Well I've already said about Aquilani...

      Cavalieri was a half decent back up keeper, certainly a lot better than what we have had since he left.
      Babel was a very big prospect but had the wrong attitude
      Sotis started dodgy but then came pretty good, was scoring goals and defending well
      Insua was supposed to be a massive payer but didn't come good

      But yeah the others did seem a bit pointless. What I will add though is the Gonzalez one was strange, spent a long time getting him to the club, he didn't have a poor season by any means and showed a bit of potential but then we got rid after a season. Never quite understood what that was all about.

      But the key thing about those players is they weren't a massive amount of money, where as you look at Borini, Balotelli, Lovren and Allen to name a few and they were all getting on for around £15mill+.

      For every bad signing Rafa made there was a Kuyt for around £10mill, Alonso £10mill, Garcia and Reina around £6mill, Torres for £26mill, Masch £17mill. How have we spent such money since?

      WE have spent a lot since thats for sure and on rubbish, but to say Rafa wasnt backed is a little off, when Torres was signed although my memory is poor I dont re call any other team spending the same money on a player that window, but like i said my memory is not that great.
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7366: Apr 09, 2015 09:42:50 pm
      WE have spent a lot since thats for sure and on rubbish, but to say Rafa wasnt backed is a little off, when Torres was signed although my memory is poor I dont re call any other team spending the same money on a player that window, but like i said my memory is not that great.

      The fact he was after the likes of Aguero, Alves etc but wasn't given the go ahead shows he wasn't backed. He's even come out and said he didn't have the backing for them.

      That summer I know United spent a lot on Anderson and Nani, £20mill roughly on Hargreaves so there was plenty being spent by other teams. We were just spending money we didn't have.
      Barnes10
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7367: Apr 09, 2015 10:29:01 pm
      He'll be disappointed if he misses out on the Champions League. He really should have got top 3 again this season. Wouldn't be surprised to see him lift another Uefa Cup though.

      The man is a brilliant manager and his tactical ability is as good as any manager in the game. But the reason he's not managing a superpower is that in a league campaign he is often too cautious against little teams and drops needless points. This means he struggles to compete to win the league titles.

      In cups, his elite tactical nous means he usually gets to latter stages, or wins them. I still think he's the ideal man to make Man City a lot stronger in the Champions League. Much better all round manager than Pelligrini.
      GeorgeRed
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7368: Apr 09, 2015 10:31:33 pm
      Respecting the man is one thing, but trying to suggest he would be a good fit to our team because of his past success at our club and your admiration of the man for his passion for the club is truly an idiocy, we should forever put the club first and what's better to take it forward, and in this moment (and in the future) hiring Benitez would mean 4 steps back and another 2-3 years wasted.
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7369: Apr 10, 2015 12:02:38 am
      Respecting the man is one thing, but trying to suggest he would be a good fit to our team because of his past success at our club and your admiration of the man for his passion for the club is truly an idiocy, we should forever put the club first and what's better to take it forward, and in this moment (and in the future) hiring Benitez would mean 4 steps back and another 2-3 years wasted.

      Mate the only thing that is going to take our club forward is investment. People choose Rafa because they like him and he's very good.

      WHy should he win the Serie A with Napoli. Juve spend 110 million on wages, Roma 90 and Inter and Napoli 70.
      Look in England, Utd Citeh Chelsea then Arsenal. Spain Madrid Barca then a lon way back atletico. Look who wins the league. If Rafa gets a cup last year and a cup this year, knowing that he has to leave because the Austerity in Italy means Napoli have no chance of going further then I would say he's done a good job.

      You say he hasn't won a league in 10 years. Who has? The top spending teams every year I can remember except for Atletico last year. Every year the top spending teams win. Allegri is at Juve this year, what did Allegri win with Milan and now he's romping the league. Pellegrini at Villareal then City. Look at the statistics. The rich teams win the league and yet Rafa gets slated because he's no winning the league every  year. He won it with Valencia twice but that doesn't count. No mate Rafa has nothing less to prove. Give him Madrid or City in a year where they are investing to win and see what he does.
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7370: Apr 10, 2015 12:13:17 am
      in his press conference after the Roma game he did say 'we beat juventus in the super cup although it was in the context of how the season would be viewed, just saying that's all

      Yeah, that's pretty much what I'd expect. It wouldn't be like Rafa, or indeed any manager but the most conceited, to take all the credit for themselves. Football is about the collective and each player working for his teammates and the supporters to produce the best result for all, and so when I see people saying ''Rafa beat Juventus again, well in Rafa'' etc. as if somehow it was his force of conscience directing the minds of the players that resulted in the goals that won the game (a sort of omnipotent God-like quality, in other words), I think how strange and how un-Liverpool like it is.

      A proven Premier League goal scorer season after season, the transfer made a lot of sense but unfortunately didn't work out.

      Aquilani, a player who showed a lot ability in Italy and even when he played for us on the odd occassion he displayed his quality and was linking up really well with Gerrard and Torres. He was haunted by injuries which led to his career massively going down hill but I think people underestimate just how well the Aquilani deal could have worked out had it not been for injuries.

      Dossena, yeah that was bit of a shi**er.

      But yeah I agree, I doubt he would have signed them if he had another option but lets not forget, the 3 main players Rafa wanted were Aguero, Jovetic and Dani Alves but he wasn't given the backing to get them. He could have gotten us Falcao for peanuts before he went to Porto but again wasn't backed. In terms of transfers, you can't say that Rafa didn't want to aim big. If you compare his targets to the targets we have now, there is no comparison that we were after far better players when Rafa was in charge. We were after youngsters that were already making a name for themselves, Alonso, Torres, Masch and others that signed along with Aguero, Alves, Falcao etc all being young but first team standard. There were very few Aspas, Alberto, Borini, Salah type signings/targets.

      Given the proper backing I have no doubts we'd have gone on to win the league under Rafa. Also lets not forget he wanted Suarez too as well as bringing Sterling to the club along with Suso.

      Overall I think Rafa did pretty well in terms of signings. Though fortunate to have Gerrard at his best, to reach the point we did in 08/09 where we had arguably the best goalie in the league, two/three of the best CBs in the league (one signed by him), the best midfield in the league, and the best out-and-out striker in the league, and arguably the whole of Europe, as well as some good/reliable players around them, was testament to his ability to put together a group of top class players in the face of very stiff competition. Of those we missed out on, there were a few like Alves and Simao who I seem to recall we were very strongly interested in/ on the verge of signing only for the deals fell through at the last moment. Here I think Rick Parry deserves a mention. Then there are lots of others who we were linked with in the press and who went on to be superstars, but who we never seem to have been in advanced negotiations with. Falcao and Aguero would seem to fall into that category. In those cases it's hard to know the exact truth. But if we must include them then I suppose we had better include Andy Carroll as well.

      Nevertheless, at crucial moments I think we made some awful signings who, had they gone the other way, could have significantly changed our fortunes. I cited Keane, Aquilani and Dossena as in my opinion if we had got them even half right, things might not have ended the way they did. Think in 08/09 if instead of signing someone for 20 million quid who we then hardly ever picked to play, we signed a proper player to complement Torres. Someone like Andrei Arshavin, perhaps. Rafael Van der Vaart even. Not great players but ones who we could probably have afforded and who would have done 10000x more than Robbie Keane.

      When we were attempting to break down stubborn defences -- the Stokes and Hulls of the league -- our game changing options consisted mainly of Robbie Keane, who was so bad we ended up selling mid-way through the season, Ryan Babel, and Yossi Benayoun. So, I think it was a huge missed opportunity. Not as big a mistake but still a big one was the replacing of Riise with Andrea Dossena; one of the worst left backs in the club's history. To follow it up the next summer by replacing one of the best midfielders in the club's history with an injured 18 million pound player who wasn't cut out for Premier League football, when we might have had Wesley Sneijder for 14 million quid, was to compound our earlier mistakes and significantly contribute to our subsequent downward spiral. Two of the biggest reasons we performed so badly in 09/10 were the failure to replace Alonso and the absence of a replacement when Torres was injured and not playing well. Another was the loss of Hyypia, who I wonder whether we might have made more of an effort to keep given that he played a further two seasons at a high level in Germany.

      These mistakes in turn were compounded by the fact that the owners didn't give Rafa enough of an opportunity to improve at the crucial moment, and enough of an opportunity to rectify the mistakes he made e.g. by signing a replacement with the Keane money.
      « Last Edit: Apr 10, 2015 01:35:26 am by -LFC- »
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7371: Apr 10, 2015 02:15:10 am
      I cited Keane, Aquilani and Dossena as in my opinion if we had got them even half right, things might not have ended the way they did.

      Aquilani was bought because Roma owed us money; it was bargaining by H&G. Keane was in my understanding someone else's choice and not Rafa's. The point here is that at the same time Chelsea, Utd and City can buy players who don't work out but because of squad depth i.e. resources, it doesn't hurt them. Rafa had to get it spot on and that is assuming he had total control, which he didn't and assuming there wasn't a great deal going on behind the scenes to openly sabotage the man, which there was.

      The deals made after H&G and the GFC, which didn't even effect chelsea for instance, really need to be analysed in that context. Why did Utd keep winning, they were the richest team (turn over ) in England and like Juventus in Serie A, benefit from being the establishments chosen vessel. When we examine Rafa's legacy we have to put in the context that after Abramovich football completely changed and Rafa was always having to punch above his weight by trying to win the league and do well in the CL.
      GeorgeRed
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7372: Apr 10, 2015 08:00:05 am
      Mate the only thing that is going to take our club forward is investment. People choose Rafa because they like him and he's very good.

      WHy should he win the Serie A with Napoli. Juve spend 110 million on wages, Roma 90 and Inter and Napoli 70.
      Look in England, Utd Citeh Chelsea then Arsenal. Spain Madrid Barca then a lon way back atletico. Look who wins the league. If Rafa gets a cup last year and a cup this year, knowing that he has to leave because the Austerity in Italy means Napoli have no chance of going further then I would say he's done a good job.

      You say he hasn't won a league in 10 years. Who has? The top spending teams every year I can remember except for Atletico last year. Every year the top spending teams win. Allegri is at Juve this year, what did Allegri win with Milan and now he's romping the league. Pellegrini at Villareal then City. Look at the statistics. The rich teams win the league and yet Rafa gets slated because he's no winning the league every  year. He won it with Valencia twice but that doesn't count. No mate Rafa has nothing less to prove. Give him Madrid or City in a year where they are investing to win and see what he does.

      He should have been challenging for the title with Napoli because that's what they did previously, but instead he managed to not even qualify for UCL with them since taking over.
      stuey
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7373: Apr 10, 2015 09:20:53 am
      Stuey I was personally there, at Anfield, to witness some of the greatest nights in this club's history in 04/05. I still have the ticket stubs from Olympiakos on through Chelsea (how f*cking lucky I was to get tickets at just the right time). I remember the ''La Bamba'' music being played and the ''Rafa Benitez'' chants after each successive step on our journey to ultimate European glory. More than that, I was as pro Rafa as they came for most of his tenure and I have always respected him as a manager and as a man.

      The question here is though, are we allowed to acknowledge the incredible achievements and also given an honest opinion about the rest of his tenure with us, and his time elsewhere? I think even he would have regrets about some decisions he made. Would he have signed sign Robbie Keane, Alberto Aquilani, Andrea Dossena if he had another chance? Doubt it. There are things which in his heart of hearts he would probably have done differently, even though he was working for a regime which ultimately brought the club to the brink of bankruptcy. I think there's a place for fair comment and sensible debate when it comes to any manager, and that's all people like myself are advocating for here. Yet there are some who want to stifle every single criticism, who accused you of ''hating'' the man if you so much as attempt to give an honest and considered opinion, when you really don't need to negate EVERYTHING in order to still believe he did a very good job at this club.

      No reference to you mate and I apologise if it appeared so, the comment was meant to illustrate that from a personal point of view his career at other clubs previous and post LFC is of no context.
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7374: Apr 10, 2015 04:23:39 pm
      Aquilani was bought because Roma owed us money; it was bargaining by H&G. Keane was in my understanding someone else's choice and not Rafa's. The point here is that at the same time Chelsea, Utd and City can buy players who don't work out but because of squad depth i.e. resources, it doesn't hurt them. Rafa had to get it spot on and that is assuming he had total control, which he didn't and assuming there wasn't a great deal going on behind the scenes to openly sabotage the man, which there was.

      The deals made after H&G and the GFC, which didn't even effect chelsea for instance, really need to be analysed in that context. Why did Utd keep winning, they were the richest team (turn over ) in England and like Juventus in Serie A, benefit from being the establishments chosen vessel. When we examine Rafa's legacy we have to put in the context that after Abramovich football completely changed and Rafa was always having to punch above his weight by trying to win the league and do well in the CL.

      I think Rafa did a very good job overall when you look at the relevant factors against which success or failure should be judged. Mainly it's a question of looking at what he inherited + overall money spent during his tenure and on that basis establishing what is/was a reasonable expectation. We were 4th in terms of what he inherited, and we spent the 2nd/3rd most overall in that period. We arguably performed 3rd best overall, behind the Mancs and Chelsea -- the latter obviously spent ludicrous amounts of money, while the Mancs started from a much stronger base to begin with. We did better than Arsenal but spent a lot more than they did. I think when you factor in the fact the ownership of H&G which brought the club to the brink of bankruptcy, he did a very good job. The best in two decades.

      On the particular question about Aquilani, I think people move between saying he was sh1te but was effectively forced on Rafa to saying he was an excellent player who but for injury would have solved our midfield problems. I have to be honest and say I don't buy either.

      At about the time we signed him for 20 million euros, Rafa said words to the effect "he'd be worth 25-30 million pounds without his injury", that he was a fantastic player etc. He was gushing about the player and it never sounded to me like he had no option but to sign him, as opposed to say someone like Wesley Sneijder for 14 million. Then, when he was finally fit and we were in dire need of improvement, Rafa opted not to play him on several occasions probably due to the fact he didn't appear to be cut out for the English game (or at least what we were asking of him). So, on that one, like the Keane signing, we got it wrong and it was particularly damaging because of our situation at the time.
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7375: Apr 10, 2015 05:26:25 pm
      as opposed to say someone like Wesley Sneijder for 14 million.

      Wesley Sneijder wouldn't have come to us, no chance. Back then Inter were dominant and had a fair amount of money to through at wages.
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7376: Apr 10, 2015 06:05:04 pm
      Wesley Sneijder wouldn't have come to us, no chance. Back then Inter were dominant and had a fair amount of money to through at wages.

      What makes you so sure, mate? We had just finished 2nd in the league with our best effort in nearly 20 years. Our European pedigree at that time was as good as anyone's and certainly better than Inter's. Added to that we had Rafa at the helm who was apparently capable of persuading other major talents to join despite bigger offers from other clubs. In fact when you combine how well we did that season with the Rafa factor then surely, had we had gone in for him, we would have had a very strong chance of signing him. He was cheaper than Aquilani as well
      vulcan_red
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7377: Apr 10, 2015 11:44:30 pm
      He should have been challenging for the title with Napoli because that's what they did previously, but instead he managed to not even qualify for UCL with them since taking over.
      When were they challenging. When he took over juventus had won a few straight and napoli finished 9 pts behind. They lost Cavani whom was their top scorer and the reason they did well that year. Rafa won the Coppa italia and qualified for CL. This year there are 9 games left to reach top 3 or he wins the EL. Either way he's going because he has something in the fire. The team knows this and so performances drop. If you want Rafa to win then give him citeh and 100 million like Mourinho or ancelotti get and judge him then.

      reddebs
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7378: Apr 11, 2015 12:36:40 am
      Jesus H Christ, not in here as well  >:(
      GeorgeRed
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7379: Apr 11, 2015 07:37:43 pm
      GeorgeRed
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7380: Apr 11, 2015 07:38:33 pm
      When were they challenging. When he took over juventus had won a few straight and napoli finished 9 pts behind. They lost Cavani whom was their top scorer and the reason they did well that year. Rafa won the Coppa italia and qualified for CL. This year there are 9 games left to reach top 3 or he wins the EL. Either way he's going because he has something in the fire. The team knows this and so performances drop. If you want Rafa to win then give him citeh and 100 million like Mourinho or ancelotti get and judge him then.

      He didn't qualify in UCL, got knocked out in playoffs by Bilbao.
      stuey
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7381: Apr 11, 2015 08:16:56 pm
      He didn't qualify in UCL, got knocked out in playoffs by Bilbao.

      What is the connection with all this horseshit and LFC?
      I realise by association in your eyes pissing on Rafa is as near to pissing on LFC as you're gonna get away with on this forum, don't follow your offerings but have no doubt they are in a similar vein.
      GeorgeRed
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      Re: Rafael Benitez Discussion Thread
      Reply #7382: Apr 12, 2015 01:33:12 pm
      What is the connection with all this horseshit and LFC?
      I realise by association in your eyes pissing on Rafa is as near to pissing on LFC as you're gonna get away with on this forum, don't follow your offerings but have no doubt they are in a similar vein.

      If you read my post i said that i have respect for Benitez, but i think he's past his best in this moment.

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