Liverpool purchased for £218 million

My concern about the new owners hiding debt is based solely on the market value of NESV, I have an idea of the market value due to the New York Times trying to sell there shares, if they sell there shares and we are told how much money they get for there shares, we will have a very good idea of the debt NESV hold, so now I can only go on how much money News Papers were saying the N.Y Times hope to get, which was up to $100 million for 16.6 %
 If they get $100million, this would make NESV worth $600 million, you then add up the assets of NESV and take away $600 million and you are left with the amount of debt the company hold.
 I may sound "just plain paranoid" but all I have done are some simple mathematics and it tells me that when NESV brought LFC they borrowed every single penny

Have read and re-read this and am still no closer to understanding it.  One thing I do know is that your basis for saying that the funds used to purchase LFC were borrowed is utterly ridiculous.

You could do any number of calcualtions (simple or otherwise) but because no-one here has the complete details of the takeover, they would all be meaningless.  However, to keep suggesting that NESV borrowed every penny of the purchase price is not only wrong but also highly irresponsible.

 The calculation am doing is   Debt = asset - equity
 
 I come to the equity figure from The New York Times wanting to sell there 16.6% of NESV

 They hope to get $100 million for 16.6 %

 This gives NESV equity or a book value of $600 million

 Once you have the book value you can take this away from the total value of the asset and you are left with the debt

   Even if they have a large amount of debt it does not mean they can not successful

 I'm sorry if I have not explained this very well but it is not the easiest thing to explain,

The calculation am doing is   Debt = asset - equity
 
 I come to the equity figure from The New York Times wanting to sell there 16.6% of NESV

 They hope to get $100 million for 16.6 %

 This gives NESV equity or a book value of $600 million

 Once you have the book value you can take this away from the total value of the asset and you are left with the debt

   Even if they have a large amount of debt it does not mean they can not successful

 I'm sorry if I have not explained this very well but it is not the easiest thing to explain,

You've also got to take into account that The New York Times are in dire financial straights and are in a very weak bargaining position as they need to liquidize some assets quickly.

NESV leveraged the red sox purchase, about 40% was debt. Makes the NY times value about right. The club was bought with debt in there, for IR purposes if not for Arse covering.

RBS laughing their arses off.

Here is where you lost me. In fact going thru your posts it's a broken record that just keeps getting played over and over again. Your theory is LFC is 100% leveraged, NESV has no money and the UEFA will scrap FFP rules because some rich owners will complain and go to court over it and all of this with no evidence other then some simple mathematics derived from numbers gotten from the Newspapers. Are you aware that perhaps there are structures within NESV with things such as Common Shares, Founders Shares and Preferred Shares? It is more then likely that all 3 of them exist as I have never been part of a deal setting up LP's (Which is what I do for a living) where this was not the case.

Plain and Simple mathematics does not cut it in high finance because there are so many variables it is impossible to apply. Once again at least on this side of the pond people are considered innocent until proven guilty...Once bitten, twice shy I can understand but the only similarities between H&G/NESV is the fact that they were all born in the same country..that's about it.

In regards to FFP, the richest owners love it because it creates a caste system in which a handful of clubs will operate at the highest levels while driving costs down due to lack of competition in the market...Football is going to turn even more into the have/have-nots then it already is.


Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich has emerged as an unlikely ally to Uefa president Michel Platini's crack down on football clubs playing in Europe who spend beyond their means."It's mainly the owners that asked us to do something. Roman Abramovich, Silvio Berlusconi at AC Milan and Massimo Moratti at Inter," Platini said. "They do not want to fork out any more. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/european/6103375/Chelsea-owner-Roman-Abramovich-backs-Michel-Platinis-bid-for-financial-fair-play.html


I am really not trying to be a pr**k, I am just tired of conspiracy theories with no foundation at all I would prefer talking about the play on the pitch, however it seems that is also impossible because of H&G

How is saying I believe NESV have a lot of debt a conspiracy theory, they do have debt, they admit to having debt but they will not tell us how much debt they have.
 As a Liverpool supporter, I think it is sensible to ask about there debt and to ask how they are financing the debt
 Why you bring H/G and the FFP into this thread is beyond me, I have not mentions them in this thread

How is saying I believe NESV have a lot of debt a conspiracy theory, they do have debt, they admit to having debt but they will not tell us how much debt they have.
 As a Liverpool supporter, I think it is sensible to ask about there debt and to ask how they are financing the debt
 Why you bring H/G and the FFP into this thread is beyond me, I have not mentions them in this thread

We bring H/G into the thread because, let's face it, none of us would be concerned about our ownership position now if they didn't F**k us over the last three-and-a-half years.

Look, what I'm saying is that while NESV have debt, which they admit to, they are a highly-renowned organization when it comes to sport ownership and they are beloved by Red Sox fans and those who support Roush Fenway Racing in NASCAR.

Given the fact that they have run teams very well and still do so, isn't it reasonable to give them the benefit of the doubt until they screw up?

The calculation am doing is   Debt = asset - equity
 
 I come to the equity figure from The New York Times wanting to sell there 16.6% of NESV

 They hope to get $100 million for 16.6 %

 This gives NESV equity or a book value of $600 million

 Once you have the book value you can take this away from the total value of the asset and you are left with the debt

   Even if they have a large amount of debt it does not mean they can not successful

 I'm sorry if I have not explained this very well but it is not the easiest thing to explain,

I am by no way an ITK person...but I do know we had simialar type questions regarding the purchase of the red sox. Like I said...TW/JH/LL have founders shares they purchased when NESV was formed....and I would suspect there were a few others who did I the same.....Years ago it was in the boston papers how nesv was actually set up but I can't find it online...I do know that there is more then one share class and I think it would be safe to assume NYT has common as they were brought in after the formation of NESV and right before the purchase of the Red Sox.

So in other words, unless you have the accurate share structure, and the shares outstanding...you have nothing but a conjecture regarding real value.

personally give these guys time its early day yet. but they done well with baseball teams. so believe they have good intentions.at least hicks and gillet are gone.

I am by no way an ITK person...but I do know we had simialar type questions regarding the purchase of the red sox. Like I said...TW/JH/LL have founders shares they purchased when NESV was formed....and I would suspect there were a few others who did I the same.....Years ago it was in the boston papers how nesv was actually set up but I can't find it online...I do know that there is more then one share class and I think it would be safe to assume NYT has common as they were brought in after the formation of NESV and right before the purchase of the Red Sox.

So in other words, unless you have the accurate share structure, and the shares outstanding...you have nothing but a conjecture regarding real value.

I would expect any large investor to take Preferred Shares and when investing in something as risky as sports teams doubly so.
 I am just guessing about the Book Value, but I believe because of the size off The N.Y Times investment and the people involved, one side John Henry and Thomas C. Werner on the other The N.Y Times, I doubt either side would have let themselves be taken advantage off, so i believe the Book value I have came up with will be quite close.
 If everyone else got founder shares this would make my Book Value far to high ?

 As I said earlier, having a large debt does not mean they cant be successful

I would expect any large investor to take Preferred Shares and when investing in something as risky as sports teams doubly so.
 I am just guessing about the Book Value, but I believe because of the size off The N.Y Times investment and the people involved, one side John Henry and Thomas C. Werner on the other The N.Y Times, I doubt either side would have let themselves be taken advantage off, so I believe the Book value I have came up with will be quite close.
 If everyone else got founder shares this would make my Book Value far to high ?

 As I said earlier, having a large debt does not mean they cant be successful

It actually makes your BV to low.

We know that 750 shares of NESV prefered or 17.5% back in 2002...and I agree they are prefered because in my research here I have found where they are non-voting shares...ie prefered. and that they sold 50 shares a few years ago...therefore there were roughly 4250 prefered shares outstanding, and NYT stake is now 16.6% where they are looking for 100M.

So yes if that is all there was in regards to NESV your calculations would be correct. However I know there are Founders Shares...and if there are prefered and founders shares there has to be without question common or voting shares.

So if you are asking me to speculate...and that is really the only thing either you or I can do...I would guesstimate something like this.

300M- Founder's Shares
600M- Prefered Shares
200-300M - Common Shares
100-200M- Real Estate Debt (Anfield and Fenway)


Total Value- 1.1-1.2B

Now the other thing to consider Eddie is how many shares were issued vs. how many shares outstanding...This is something we have no  way of knowing but founders and common shares are usually kept in reserve so additional funding can take place. So lets say NESV needs money for something...it is as simple and JH/TW/LL purchasing more founders or common shares in exchange for the cash.

So if it was a cut and dry case then yes your simple math would be correct, however with the complexity of NESV and the fact we have no real information and can only hypothicate we should give these guys a chance because neither you nor I know the real facts so anything we do is pure speculation.

In regards to my above post.

Yes NESV has debt...they have appx 80m in regards to LFCAG and probably 100M+ with Fenway.

In essence now neither the Red Sox or LFC own the property they play on.....both entities pay a fee to Fenway and to Anfield...(rent for lack of better term) So yes they are using leverage and debt in regards to real estate which from a taxation standpoint is the smart way to go.

The cheapest type of loan accessable to anyone is with real estate....H&G were paying 18% interest on the loans with RBS...What NESV did here was pay cash off the loans..kept the real estate debt and moved it to a new company LFCAG. Interest write-off's, depreciation + many other advantages to using debt as a tool to benefit from taxation laws.

 There is some substance behind my guess, knowing what The N.Y Times brought and what they are hoping to sell for ,
 Where as your 300M- Founder's Shares, 200-300M - Common Share, come from is beyond me, they seem to be figures you have pulled from the sky.
 If the estate has been paid for, this will be reflected in the price The N.Y Times will get for there shares.
 I do understand what you say about the loans NESV have, they are cleaver people and will be paying very little interest

What i don't see mentioned in this thread is that NY Times are in the sh*t with piles of debt and needed to sell. They themselves said they would be worse off in the future for selling these shares as it was a very good investment, but they simply had to sell now to keep up the cash flow.

There is some substance behind my guess, knowing what The N.Y Times brought and what they are hoping to sell for ,
 Where as your 300M- Founder's Shares, 200-300M - Common Share, come from is beyond me, they seem to be figures you have pulled from the sky.
 If the estate has been paid for, this will be reflected in the price The N.Y Times will get for there shares.
 I do understand what you say about the loans NESV have, they are cleaver people and will be paying very little interest

The numbers for Founders Shares and common shares were absolutely pulled out of my arse, however I am sure both share classes exist..but it does show how hard it is to come up with the big picture for any of us...myself and yourself included when we only have 1/10th the information to work with and quotes like

I don't trust them, I believe NESV has massive debts somewhere !

accomplishes nothing but stirring sh*te up for no reason whatsoever. After the H&G years it would be easy to be suspicious and guarded but we need to give these guy's the benefit of the doubt until otherwise proven.

You've also got to take into account that The New York Times are in dire financial straights and are in a very weak bargaining position as they need to liquidize some assets quickly.

What i don't see mentioned in this thread is that NY Times are in the sh*t with piles of debt and needed to sell. They themselves said they would be worse off in the future for selling these shares as it was a very good investment, but they simply had to sell now to keep up the cash flow.

Somebody mentioned it Crouchy, I'm sure of it ....   

Haha!

Apologies mate. I change my previous post to, 'Look up what Rodders said'

The numbers for Founders Shares and common shares were absolutely pulled out of my arse, however I am sure both share classes exist..but it does show how hard it is to come up with the big picture for any of us...myself and yourself included when we only have 1/10th the information to work with and quotes like  accomplishes nothing but stirring sh*te up for no reason whatsoever. After the H&G years it would be easy to be suspicious and guarded but we need to give these guy's the benefit of the doubt until otherwise proven.

Are you saying I should not voice my opinion ? or only voice an opinion which make the new owner look good ?

 I will continue to question the new owner, if I say something wrong I am sure I will be put right, which I welcome, I also welcome intelligent debate, which most of your replies were.

Are you saying I should not voice my opinion ? or only voice an opinion which make the new owner look good ?

 I will continue to question the new owner, if I say something wrong I am sure I will be put right, which I welcome, I also welcome intelligent debate, which most of your replies were.

No I am not saying that at all, and there is nothing wrong with with questioning...and open debate is good for everybody.

1.

I don't trust them, I believe NESV has massive debts somewhere !

2.

I am concerned that NESV used debt as a way of purchasing LFC

I read #2 as a legitimate question open to intelligent debate.
I read #1 as an ITK person and comes out as a scare post.

2 way's of saying the exact same thing but with very different meanings just by using different wording.

Perhaps it is just the way I took your posting and it's just me... either way it has turned into a decent conversation and something we can continue on as more information becomes available to us. For all of us this week should be a week to enjoy friends and family the bitter work of what needs to be done at LFC will be there after our holidays.

  AZ patriot
 Good point, I must be more careful if I make a statement when all the fact are not known ,or clarify that it is just my opinion.
 I appreciate your feedback.
 Wishing you and everyone else a merry Xmas and a happy New Year

 AZ patriot
 Good point, I must be more careful if I make a statement when all the fact are not known ,or clarify that it is just my opinion.
 I appreciate your feedback.
 Wishing you and everyone else a merry Xmas and a happy New Year

Same to you my friend and your family

£218M ? That's great, that will make G&H's loss even bigger "Once bitten, twice shy" someone said, fair enough, i can share that one. But i also think we all should share patience, Henry and Werner has not given any golden promises after the takeover. The said clearely that "this will not be a quick fix project". Remember that at the end of a storm.....