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      The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????

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      Richobaz
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      The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Jul 08, 2007 08:35:38 pm
      I'm probably not the only person on here - who hasn't got a clue on how our midfield will set up next season:

      1. Gerrard - Where will he play? 
      2. Alonso and Mascherano - are they are first choice central partnership?
      3. Sissoko - Didn't like being left out of the 1st team last year - surely it will be much of the same this year!
      4. Gerrard - If we sign a world class right winger, Gerrard won't play there!

      Another season of squad rotation - please not so much Rafa.

      Competition for places is good and bad.
      Court LFC
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #1: Jul 08, 2007 09:19:18 pm
      I'm probably not the only person on here - who hasn't got a clue on how our midfield will set up next season:

      1. Gerrard - Where will he play? 
      2. Alonso and Mascherano - are they are first choice central partnership?
      3. Sissoko - Didn't like being left out of the 1st team last year - surely it will be much of the same this year!
      4. Gerrard - If we sign a world class right winger, Gerrard won't play there!

      Another season of squad rotation - please not so much Rafa.

      Competition for places is good and bad.


      There is no doubt that we have the best lot of central midfielders in the Premiership.  Although, I do rate Mascherano, I think it was a mistake to bring him here. 

      It was a problem when Gerrard couldn't get into a starting CM place when it was only Momo and Xabi filling the gap.

      Maybe it's another move of Rafa's magic, rotation policy? Who will be the first to snap?

      Watch this space...
      Cy
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #2: Jul 08, 2007 10:10:40 pm
      There is no doubt that we have the best lot of central midfielders in the Premiership.  Although, I do rate Mascherano, I think it was a mistake to bring him here. 

      It was a problem when Gerrard couldn't get into a starting CM place when it was only Momo and Xabi filling the gap.

      Maybe it's another move of Rafa's magic, rotation policy? Who will be the first to snap?

      Watch this space...
      I heard what you are saying court, and bringing Mascherano was without a doubt bringing more problems to who will play in the middle, the quality of the lad is without question and I think every managers in the league would love to have that kind of problems. Competition for places? rotation policy? what you said is very true we have the best middlefields of the league and that can only be good.

       RAFA loves his rotation policy and my guess would be that we will see lot's of it in the middle this year again, there is also the question with injuries, if we are hit on that part of the field we will have cover and that might be what RAFA got in mind too.
      Court LFC
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #3: Jul 08, 2007 10:16:27 pm
      I heard what you are saying court, and bringing Mascherano was without a doubt bringing more problems to who will play in the middle, the quality of the lad is without question and I think every managers in the league would love to have that kind of problems. Competition for places? rotation policy? what you said is very true we have the best middlefields of the league and that can only be good.

       RAFA loves his rotation policy and my guess would be that we will see lot's of it in the middle this year again, there is also the question with injuries, if we are hit on that part of the field we will have cover and that might be what RAFA got in mind too.

      True.  I also think the rotation policy will help the lads push for places.  Work harder!

      Rafa is a genuis.
      EddieC
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #4: Jul 08, 2007 11:13:34 pm
      We all know Rafa likes to make changes, often using completely different tactics from week to week. I think all four are needed to accommodate these changes. Gerrard and Alonso is a no go for me, they're great players individually but together they don't seem to have the right balance. In one aspect their style is similar, their passing. They both tend to spray 30-40 yard passes about, and when they're both on the pitch our distribution becomes a bit predictable. The best partner for Gerrard would be Mascherano for me. Mascherano's a great holding player, winning the ball & playing it simple most of the time, his style would work well to keep the balance whilst Gerrard would play what I feel is his best role, a box to box midfielder. He is too good at everything to be restricted to being the 'holding' player or playing in the 'hole', as both roles take something away from his game, be it offensively or defensively. The approach could be a bit too gung-ho for Benitez when we're playing top opposition and he might go for a more defensive pairing/trio in those matches.

      Sissoko, as you rightly say, will probably not play as many games as the other three, but I'd still expect him to get about 30 games including sub appearances. He is very useful against good passing sides as he doesn't give them time on the ball. He chases down relentlessly, and often they resort to route one football to try & bypass the midfield, which becomes a lot easier to defend against. The thing that lets Sissoko down though is his passing, he can't seem to hit an accurate pass more than 5-10 yards. This is why I feel Alonso is the right partner for him, as he reads Sissoko's game better than either of the other two. When the two of them play together you notice Alonso almost trailing Sissoko when the opposition have possession, ready for him to win it & supplying a simple option for him to pass to, relieving Sissoko of the duty of too much serious passing. Sissoko can also be used as a good sub late on in the game as his exceptional energy levels can exploit tiredness in the opposition.

      Alonso and Mascherano is a very defensive pairing, and I feel the time to judge this option is when we've got some better wingers in. With both playing holding roles you need very attacking wide men, and at least one target man upfront. As I haven't seen it played with the right wide men in place I can't really comment on it's effectiveness, but without the right wingers it hasn't worked for me. I feel Mascherano & Alonso are more effective when used as part of a trio with Gerrard, either in a 4-5-1 or a 3-5-2. I think 3-5-2 would need us to buy a new right wingback, and that's not really a priority right now, but 4-5-1 will probably be used a fair bit in big cup matches, especially away legs. The formation gives us essentially three defensive midfielders when needed making a back 7 to break down, but gives us a great attacking outlet through Gerrard to attempt to nick the treasured away goal.

      Gerrard will still play the occasional game on the right I believe. I would hope that we sign two wingers, both very attacking. There will be occasions that you want someone more defensive on the flanks, Riise can do the job on the left & Gerrard can do the job on the right. I would hope with new options arriving on the wings that Gerrard would only play a handful of games there though.

      Lucas Leiva's hard for me to comment on, as I've only actually watched him play one game in the Copa Libatores, but from what I've heard & seen in that one game he seems to be a Sissoko type player, harrying the opposition and winning the ball, but with a shot on him as well. If the lad can settle in well & do as well as my Brazilian friend has insisted he will do then I would see Sissoko going out of the door. Personally I would wait until January to see what the kid's like, and try not to play Sissoko in the Champions League until then to keep his value.

      One thing's for certain, and that's that we don't need any strengthening in central midfield. I feel that all four of them will play a significant role this season though, and with the right players coming in for other positions we will (hopefully) have a great season.
      LFC Gary
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #5: Jul 08, 2007 11:49:44 pm
      Great post, agree with near enough all what you said there. I wouldn't give Sissoko a chance though, yeah he can tackle but he can't pass which you have to be able to do at this level.

      How do you do those quote things by the way?
      Rafa La Bamba
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #6: Jul 08, 2007 11:49:46 pm
      Xabi Alonso plays best when Steven Gerrard is not on the teamsheet, for example he controlled the game against Everton at Anfield when Gerrard got sent off, he did very well against Spurs in 2005 when Gerrard wasn't playing.. it just seems like he needs to take control of the midfield to be effective which is rare when you've got Stevie Gerrard and Javier Mascherano operating there.

      When Mascherano plays, Alonso must not. Mascherano has some of the qualities that Alonso has, he can spray the ball around very well, he's a better tackler and reads the game a lot better, he's quicker and a lot more mobile around the pitch. If Mascherano plays then Gerrard should partner him. If you remember the game against Chelsea in May we had Gerrard & Mascherano pairing in the center and they were facing Lampard, Mikel & Makelele and it was the Liverpool duo to dominate midfield that night, this shows you how well these two can control the midfield.

      Alonso should partner Sissoko as Alonso doesn't like to run and tackle as much so Sissoko does this job, winning the ball and passing it to Alonso.. thats when Alonso is at his best. But, do we need Alonso? I don't think so and there's a reason for that... his name is Lucas Leiva! Yes you can tell me I've never watched Lucas play and he's too young etc etc but he won the Brazilian Golden Ball at 19 years old being the youngest ever player to win that award. The likes of Kaká, Zico, Robinho & Pélé have won that award and for Lucas to win it at such a young age for a central midfielder is just simply amazing!

      Tim Vickery has had his say on Lucas Leiva - "These moves are always a gamble, but I think this is a good one.

      He's an exciting player of a type that Brazilian football hasn't produced too many of recently. Of late their central midfielders have tended to be 'holders' who sit and allow the full-backs to push forward.

      Lucas is different. He's a big, blonde figure whose power and physical strength comes with attacking ability.

      He can pass well and loves to rumble forward. He gets on the scoresheet both with blistering shots from range and from bursting beyond the strikers.

      You can certainly imagine him playing alongside Javier Mascherano, for example.

      I don't have the same fears for him as I did with Paletta. He's had two full seasons behind him - one helping Gremio win promotion from the second division, and then last year's success when he was chosen as the player of the championship."


      Tim Vickery is a South American football journalist, therefore I'm going to trust everything he's just said and just hope it's all true!
      EddieC
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #7: Jul 08, 2007 11:59:10 pm
      But, do we need Alonso? I don't think so and there's a reason for that... his name is Lucas Leiva!

      I agree that Lucas sounds like one hell of a talent, but disagree that Alonso should make way for him. We have a very good balance of different styles in the middle, I would swap him for the player he is most similar to, but better than. As he seems to play further up the pitch than Alonso I would say Sissoko would be the logical choice. As I said in my last post I've only seen the lad play one match, but it struck me that he could win the ball in dangerous areas like Sissoko but he also apparently has one hell of a shot on him and can pass well, both things Sissoko isn't very good at. I definately don't think we should sell anyone right now though, Lucas has to prove himself first.
      Rafa La Bamba
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #8: Jul 09, 2007 11:26:29 am
      I agree that Lucas sounds like one hell of a talent, but disagree that Alonso should make way for him. We have a very good balance of different styles in the middle, I would swap him for the player he is most similar to, but better than. As he seems to play further up the pitch than Alonso I would say Sissoko would be the logical choice. As I said in my last post I've only seen the lad play one match, but it struck me that he could win the ball in dangerous areas like Sissoko but he also apparently has one hell of a shot on him and can pass well, both things Sissoko isn't very good at. I definately don't think we should sell anyone right now though, Lucas has to prove himself first.

      True, if he does prove himself I really do think either Alonso or Sissoko should make way.. the one who has the poorer season I say. We don't need 5 CM's and can make some good money out of either one. Thing is I just can't see where Alonso fits in with Gerrard & Mascherano
      EddieC
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #9: Jul 09, 2007 11:45:52 am
      True, if he does prove himself I really do think either Alonso or Sissoko should make way.. the one who has the poorer season I say. We don't need 5 CM's and can make some good money out of either one. Thing is I just can't see where Alonso fits in with Gerrard & Mascherano

      I believe Alonso is the most intelligent player in our squad, he does lots that goes unnoticed by most, and I'm sure there's plenty more that I don't notice either. The case of how he plays with Sissoko is a prime example. Gerrard, the better player technically, can't play as well with Sissoko as his reading of the game isn't as good as Alonso's. When playing with someone like Sissoko who's brilliant at winning the ball but can't do a lot with it after, you need to be able to read when they're going to win the ball & have yourself available in a position for a simple pass. Alonso seems to do this a lot better than any other player in our squad, as his reading of the game is second to none. The majority of the time Benitez likes to play with two holding midfielders, so I definately feel there is space for Alonso & Mascherano in the squad. If anyone should go if & when Lucas proves himself, for me it has to be Sissoko.
      kingjari
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #10: Jul 09, 2007 12:54:03 pm
      I have a horrible feeling that when Masch's loan is over he will leave,  MSI will sell him for a cost prohibitive fee one that Liverpool can't or wont match.  talk of selling alonso is ridiculous and sissoko has years to improve  his passing and distribution.  As Eddie c mentioned we have a lot of tactical variation in all areas of the field exept the wings now. 
      Richobaz
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #11: Jul 09, 2007 01:49:03 pm
      I believe Alonso is the most intelligent player in our squad, he does lots that goes unnoticed by most, and I'm sure there's plenty more that I don't notice either. The case of how he plays with Sissoko is a prime example. Gerrard, the better player technically, can't play as well with Sissoko as his reading of the game isn't as good as Alonso's. When playing with someone like Sissoko who's brilliant at winning the ball but can't do a lot with it after, you need to be able to read when they're going to win the ball & have yourself available in a position for a simple pass. Alonso seems to do this a lot better than any other player in our squad, as his reading of the game is second to none. The majority of the time Benitez likes to play with two holding midfielders, so I definately feel there is space for Alonso & Mascherano in the squad. If anyone should go if & when Lucas proves himself, for me it has to be Sissoko.
      Agree EdC - but can you work out why Alonso's shooting is so bad?

      I can't!

      For someone with his ability in passing - his shooting and free kicks aren't that hot.

      Apart from the goals from his half-way line - but you could say they're like a long racking pass!
      EddieC
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #12: Jul 09, 2007 01:58:01 pm
      Agree EdC - but can you work out why Alonso's shooting is so bad?

      I can't!

      For someone with his ability in passing - his shooting and free kicks aren't that hot.

      Apart from the goals from his half-way line - but you could say they're like a long racking pass!

      I don't think his shooting is that bad, well no worse than you'd expect from a holding midfielder anyway. He hardly ever gets into shooting positions though, it would be nice every once in a while to see him turn up on the edge of the box. However if his instruction is to stay back, which going by Rafa's attitude to central midfield it probably is, then that's what he has to do.
      Rafa La Bamba
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #13: Jul 09, 2007 05:35:48 pm
      I have a horrible feeling that when Masch's loan is over he will leave,  MSI will sell him for a cost prohibitive fee one that Liverpool can't or wont match.  talk of selling alonso is ridiculous and sissoko has years to improve  his passing and distribution.

      That would be terrible if we lost Mascherano, we really have been more dominating when Mascherano's been in the team. I don't think talk of selling Alonso or Sissoko is ridiculous, lets be honest, how are you going to keep five central midfielders happy? All five of them probably including Lucas will want first team football and I'm not a big fan of rotation when it comes to the midfield as players need to know each others game.

      Is Rafa looking to release Mascherano back to MSI next summer? Is Rafa looking to sell either Alonso or Sissoko next season but keep them this season as Lucas will need a bedding in season? The last question is the one I think will end up being true!
      Richobaz
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #14: Jul 09, 2007 08:38:26 pm
      Can't see Mascherano leaving.

      Let's look at the facts - if we play 4-4-2:

      Mascherano is a first choice player for the best national team in the world at the moment...so he's got to start

      CM/Holding - Mascherano

      I give up - I just can't see how this is going to work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      EddieC
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #15: Jul 09, 2007 08:47:54 pm
      I give up - I just can't see how this is going to work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Pretty much the same way it worked last season. Our central midfielders made 170 appearances between them last season, that is enough to require four players for the two spots. If & when Lucas proves himself we will have to re-assess our options, probably with Sissoko making way, but until then we will need the players we have. I still reckon there will be 10-15 games this season when Rafa opts for a 5 man midfield, whether that be in a 4-5-1 or a 3-5-2, and I believe Gerrard will still get a handful of games on the right, so there should be enough games for everyone.
      Richobaz
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #16: Jul 09, 2007 08:54:23 pm
      Pretty much the same way it worked last season. Our central midfielders made 170 appearances between them last season, that is enough to require four players for the two spots. If & when Lucas proves himself we will have to re-assess our options, probably with Sissoko making way, but until then we will need the players we have. I still reckon there will be 10-15 games this season when Rafa opts for a 5 man midfield, whether that be in a 4-5-1 or a 3-5-2, and I believe Gerrard will still get a handful of games on the right, so there should be enough games for everyone.

      You make it sound so easy - but it isn't. 

      I'm so surprised Alonso and Sissoko signed long-term contracts.

      They have both already shown frustration in being left out of the side.

      It's all good if you're winning week in week out - but we've struggled with that consistancy.

      I honestly think we have too many quality 'samey' players.  And you can have too many.
      king kenny
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #17: Jul 09, 2007 10:58:25 pm
      Even in Rafa’s rotations players like Carra, Gerrard, Alonso, Reina and now Mascherano will and have found starts most of the time.  Gerrard, Mascherano and Alonso should be the first on the team sheet with a new world class winger.  Gerrard’s favourite position can’t jeopardise the strength of the entire team. 

      Lucas Leiva can be given opportunities to play a similar role on the left as a defensive option or to use an attacking option on the right in Pennant/?.  Obviously one option is Simao on the right he is comfortable playing deeper and making clever runs, with an out and out winger on the left.  The problem with simao as a second winger coming in primarily for the right is that he could draw curtains on Pennant. Gerrard will also be used in that position in order to accommodate all these CM’s. Penant has improved and did show a lot of promise in the latter part of last season, he needs to be encouraged to take the next step be more consistent and be one of the best players in the league.  Yes, we may have money available, but that is no excuse to start waste English talent. 

      We have to start most games with a 4-4-2, it obviously then depends on the situation whether we revert to a 4-5-1 or a 4-3-3 or even a 4-4-2 with two attacking wingers and Gerrard in the middle which will probably be as attacking as you can be.  I’m not a fan of playing 4-3-3 as a Plan A for the season it just isn’t feasible in the premiership.  This system has only been used by Chelsea and has been very in-efficient as it has wasted a lot of talent.  Its alright as plan B and some of the big games and some European nights, but to win the premiership the focal system has to be a balanced 442.
      EddieC
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #18: Jul 09, 2007 11:40:14 pm
      You make it sound so easy - but it isn't. 

      I'm so surprised Alonso and Sissoko signed long-term contracts.

      They have both already shown frustration in being left out of the side.

      It's all good if you're winning week in week out - but we've struggled with that consistancy.

      I honestly think we have too many quality 'samey' players.  And you can have too many.

      TBH I think Sissoko is on his way out if/when Lucas 'makes it'. The reason we've tied him up on a long contract is because he's a player in demand at the moment, and a longer contract equals a bigger fee. If Lucas doesn't cut the mustard we still have one of our players tied down for a while, it's a win win situation really.
      king kenny
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #19: Jul 10, 2007 12:40:34 am
      Sossoko is still very young and even though his passing is very poor I think he can very easily correct that weakness in the coming seasons.  Yes, I buy Eddie’s idea that he is in demand and the outcome of Leiva could end his Liverpool career.  Even though Sossoko at present provides a different option is there a better and cleaner tackler in the premiership.  Maybe if he can add a few more goals!
      Paolo
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #20: Jul 10, 2007 12:43:46 pm
      There is no doubt that we have the best lot of central midfielders in the Premiership.  Although, I do rate Mascherano, I think it was a mistake to bring him here. 

      It was a problem when Gerrard couldn't get into a starting CM place when it was only Momo and Xabi filling the gap.

      Maybe it's another move of Rafa's magic, rotation policy? Who will be the first to snap?

      Watch this space...

      I really like have this kind of problems !! You could play with two playmakers and three midfielder or fouer in a line with Stevie behind Torres ..
      « Last Edit: Jul 11, 2007 10:40:39 pm by mrtommo »
      Rafa La Bamba
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #21: Jul 10, 2007 03:00:44 pm
      Although, I do rate Mascherano, I think it was a mistake to bring him here. 

      Really? Even though everytime he's on our team sheet we've dominated every single game even against the chavs! Mascherano dominated Kaká in the final against Milan! Tell me another midfielder who could keep probably the best player in the world quiet!?

      There is no mistake in bring Javier to Liverpool. Chelsea have 7 CM's in Diarra, Sidwell, Mikel, Makelele, Essien, Lampard & Ballack. We've got 5 CM's but Lucas will be having a bedding in season, only next season I expect either Alonso or Sissoko to make way! Javier is our best defensive midfielder, not Sissoko or Alonso.. just making my point clear! :)
      jonny d
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      Re: The confusion of our Starting XL - Gerrard, Sissoko, Masch, Alonso????????
      Reply #22: Jul 11, 2007 10:39:28 pm
      I reckon Gerrard and Masch in midfield so mascherano can stay back while gerrard can attack

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