4th - realistic prospect or naive dream?

Last season 63 points didnt get us close to 4th, we need to have a championship winning side to pick up nearly 50 points in 19 games.
The best we can hope for is top 10 so not even EL qualification.We do still have two cups to go for and Roy would seem like Lazerous if we could stuff UTD.
If Ferguson is his Pal he might stick out a weakend side to help out an old friend.

The question is why where there too many poor or average players brought in? Cos the cu*ts that owned us wouldn't shell out for the top class players.

F***ing simples!

Very true mate, but when money is tight its all the more important to get your buys right. I am pretty sure we could and should have done a lot better than we have over the last few years. Dossena, Aquilani, Keene, Poulson, Konchesky etc etc . There is a lot of money lost just on those, but more to the point and more worrying is the loss of points and opportunities that bad buys bring with them. That is one of the reasons I don't believe in the "NET SALES" arguement. All "net sales" does is hide the problems caused by too many bad buys. Yes we have had to sell to buy, but how many times have we sold because the player just wasn't good enough.

I could take over at Liverpool sell Torres and Gerrard for £60million, spend £40million on crap players and when we plummet down the league say  "what do you expect my "net sales" was minus £20million We need a lot of money pumped into the team to make up for the last few years of famine, but more importantly we need to start investing that money wisely by getting more transfers right than wrong.

Our biggest problem now is that not only do we need the money , but that it is becoming harder and harder to attract the best players. Chelsea and Citeh have the money, the mancs and Madrid have the glamour and Arsenal and Barca play the football. We have the history, but will that be enough ? 

Very true mate, but when money is tight its all the more important to get your buys right. I am pretty sure we could and should have over the last few years. Dossena, Aquilani, Keane, Poulson, Konchesky etc etc .

Hindsight is 20/20 though.  For me 2 were poor buys from the off, one was hampered by an injury that didn't heal as quickly as expected and the others didn't work - happens to EVERY manager.  Dossena had come off the back of a barnstorming season in Italy, looked a player & a a half and I, erroneously, thought Keane would be able to strike up a good partnership with Torres, which he failed to do and his career has been on a downward spiral since.  Konchesky & Poulsen were just never going to be good enough.  I think Aquilani showed at the end of last season & even in pre-season that he was good enough to be here or at least given a chance.

But as I say, hindsight is 20/20 and not a manager out there that hasn't had a signing not work out for them.

The question is why where there too many poor or average players brought in? Cos the cu*ts that owned us wouldn't shell out for the top class players.

F***ing simples!

Correct Sir.

Very true mate, but when money is tight its all the more important to get your buys right. I am pretty sure we could and should have done a lot better than we have over the last few years. Dossena, Aquilani, Keene, Poulson, Konchesky etc etc . There is a lot of money lost just on those, but more to the point and more worrying is the loss of points and opportunities that bad buys bring with them. That is one of the reasons I don't believe in the "NET SALES" arguement. All "net sales" does is hide the problems caused by too many bad buys. Yes we have had to sell to buy, but how many times have we sold because the player just wasn't good enough.

I could take over at Liverpool sell Torres and Gerrard for £60million, spend £40million on crap players and when we plummet down the league say  "what do you expect my "net sales" was minus £20million We need a lot of money pumped into the team to make up for the last few years of famine, but more importantly we need to start investing that money wisely by getting more transfers right than wrong.

Our biggest problem now is that not only do we need the money , but that it is becoming harder and harder to attract the best players. Chelsea and Citeh have the money, the mancs and Madrid have the glamour and Arsenal and Barca play the football. We have the history, but will that be enough ?  

Well when you look at the original players Rafa wanted to buy like Dani Alves, David Silva, Stevan Jovetic only to be told time and time again that the club weren't prepared to pay for them, then no wonder he had to start looking at cheaper options.

If he'd have been able to at least gone for Silva and Jovetic in the summer of 09, it could of been a different story now.

Before XMas, in fact the Newcastle game I thought that there was massive potential to go on a great run. I even thought prior to the Fulham game being postponed we could stick a good run together. Wolves has blown all that for me. We unable to string a run together so the best we can hope for is 6th. Top 4, not a f**king chance!

Last season 63 points didnt get us close to 4th, we need to have a championship winning side to pick up nearly 50 points in 19 games.

Looking at this season, 66 might even be enough if we were to take points off of Spurs and Chelsea - 41 points from 19 games is difficult but it is achievable if we avoid dropping points to lesser teams. Utd have 41 points from 19, despite playing poorly the whole year and managing only two wins away from home. Also, if we change manager, get some attacking football, win some games and close the gap the pressure will be on Spurs and Chelsea who might start to get worried.  I'm not saying it is in the bag, just that we could do it (or at least challenge for 4th) if we changed the manager and got some belief back in the squad.

Before XMas, in fact the Newcastle game I thought that there was massive potential to go on a great run.

Look at our next few games though, 3 points at Blackburn, then we'll go out of the cup at OT, Blackpool will give us a game and I'm dreading the derby at Anfield under this tit.

With Roy we will be lucky to finish top 10, but even without him top 4 now seems highly unrealistic.

Upcoming fixtures –
Liverpool:
Blackburn (A)
Blackpool (A)
Everton (H)
Wolves (A)
Fulham (H)
Stoke (H)

One away match against a team we haven't beaten in last year same fixture.
Two away matches against teams having beaten us at home.
One derby against a team having won last same derby.
One home match against a team we looked like we had no chance to win against in the away fixture.
Even Fulham may be tricky if Roy is still in charge, perfectly knowing his tactic.

Not that good. Realistic expectations (considering our current form and with Roy in charge) are between 6pts (a win against Fulham, and draws against say Blackburn, Stoke and Everton) and 12 or so with better performances than we used to have and/or some luck.

ps : I hope saying that that I'm just contaminated by Roy's lowering of expectations.

Well when you look at the original players Rafa wanted to buy like Dani Alves, David Silva, Stevan Jovetic only to be told time and time again that the club weren't prepared to pay for them, then no wonder he had to start looking at cheaper options.

If he'd have been able to at least gone for Silva and Jovetic in the summer of 09, it could of been a different story now.

I am not getting into the Rafa argument mate. I am talking about how our bad buys over the years have left us with a poor squad,and while every manager makes bad buys our success to failure rate has been too low for a very long time. No doubt if we had had more money we would have got some better players....... so would any manager at any club.(maybe not Souness)  However the reason we are were we are is that too much money was wasted on too many players who were just not good enough. From Diouf and Diao to Babel and Poulson we have been throwing money down the drain. Yes any and every manager makes bad buys, transfers are always a gamble and we have had some outstanding success's but too many failures has cost us dearly.

Yes there are always excuses, reasons why they were bought (no manager deliberately makes bad buys) but get it right and you are a success, wrong and you have failed. Simples

It is also one major reason why when you do get it right you should hang on to them like grim death. Losing players like Alonso, Masch, Benny, Arbeloa etc etc has also been a huge blow to the squad.

Which is why I AM TOTALLY AGAINST THE IDEA OF SELLING TORRES OR REINA, because while we could indeed use that money to "strengthen the squad" there is a good chance that most of the money would be wasted on players who are just not good enough.

So, can we achieve 4th?

No we can't.

I am not getting into the Rafa argument mate. I am talking about how our bad buys over the years have left us with a poor squad

And the point I've been trying to make without starting up any arguments is why we had to go for what are now perceived as bad buys, because the board weren't prepared to back him for the players he wanted. So we had to look at other players based on money we had from players sold.

And if we were to make fourth place this season, would Roy change his mind, again and claim it isn't a bad squad. 

And why did we have to lose the good players, because we had debts to pay.

And sell torres, but if you sell reina, then we really are fu**ed, because he is one of the best goalies in the world and anyone we bring in after Pepe, just won't be good enough and that is FACT!!

We should never sell world class players. Unless you replace them with like then you downgrade the squad. What we have at the moment is a potential 6th spot nothing more, but to ensure we improve (new manager needed here) we must keep our current world class trinity of Reina, Torres and Gerrard. A new manager, I hope, would get Torres back to his best, and at his best he is the best. Next season defo top 4 (fingers crossed).

With Hodgson? No.

Not tactically aware in the modern game and paralysed as how to change games.

Will drop too many points off the obvious games.

No CL until September 2012.



(Love to be proved wrong.
Dont give up hope)

And the point I've been trying to make without starting up any arguments is why we had to go for what are now perceived as bad buys, because the board weren't prepared to back him for the players he wanted. So we had to look at other players based on money we had from players sold.

And if we were to make fourth place this season, would Roy change his mind, again and claim it isn't a bad squad. 

And why did we have to lose the good players, because we had debts to pay.

And sell torres, but if you sell reina, then we really are fu**ed, because he is one of the best goalies in the world and anyone we bring in after Pepe, just won't be good enough and that is FACT!!

Babel £11.5million, Dossena 7 or 8million depending on what you read, Riera £8million, Pennant £7million (hardly bargain basement mate)

Arbeloa left because we let his contract run down (Rafa told him not to sign a new contract until he had) Arbeloa then attracted interest from Madrid and left.

Alonso - touted all round europe like a second hand pair of knickers before putting in a transfer request.

Benny, said at Christmas that he was leaving because of Rafa

Masch - said he had been promised by Rafa that he could go the following season.

Yeah sell Torres and when we buy another Keene or Diouf with the money we can all look back and say how unlucky we were. 

I don't think a 8766567th Rafa debate is needed to answer the thread question.

Babel £11.5million, Dossena 7 or 8million depending on what you read, Riera £8million, Pennant £7million (hardly bargain basement mate)

Arbeloa left because we let his contract run down (Rafa told him not to sign a new contract until he had) Arbeloa then attracted interest from Madrid and left.

Alonso - touted all round europe like a second hand pair of knickers before putting in a transfer request.

Benny, said at Christmas that he was leaving because of Rafa

Masch - said he had been promised by Rafa that he could go the following season.

Yeah sell Torres and when we buy another Keene or Diouf with the money we can all look back and say how unlucky we were. 

Well you said you'd sell Torres.

And why did we buy Pennant, because parry told Rafa he couldn't have £12 million for Alves.

Alonso, moaning about Tax he was paying, was touted all round Europe because the yanks needed money to pay off the banks, why do you think he sold Xabi, because he knew he couldn't sell Torres or Gerrard. Why do you think we sold him straight for cash, when we could of had VDV or another Madrid player as part of the deal, the club NEEDED the money.

By the way, I wonder what did happen to the money we received for Alonso and what also happened to the money received for Keane?

Maybe that's the reason we had to buy second rate sh*te?

I don't think a 8766567th Rafa debate is needed to answer the thread question.

I know, but we're going back to the media agenda line of "it's a sh*t squad left by Rafa" rather than "13 internationals who played at the world cup and struggling to be motivated or organised by a chameleon of a manager, who, quite frankly shouldn't be anywhere near the job of manager of Liverpool FC.

Rafa no doubt made some howlers in the transfer market, but how many of those where in his control we will never know. Woy on the other hand... He's not half the tactician that Rafa is, and hardly a deft hand in the transfer market either.... 4th COULD happen... But not with Woy imo. And I'm not even saying that bringing back Rafa will do it either... I really don't know what will.

Well you said you'd sell Torres.

I think you should try again mate. I said .....  Which is why I AM TOTALLY AGAINST THE IDEA OF SELLING TORRES OR REINA

The way this season is going I can't see us getting higher than 6th ,why? because we have a totally inept bloke in charge of our team ( notice i don't call him a manager ,because he isn't ! ) and then we have a sports consortium who bought the club but seem to lack the 'hands on' approach and don't understand our game yet ,sack Roy and we would be able to challenge for 4th place ,but god help Liverpool if Roy is kept on and dabbles into the january sales ...he'd probably buy Carlton Cole !

Babel £11.5million, Dossena 7 or 8million depending on what you read, Riera £8million, Pennant £7million (hardly bargain basement mate)

Arbeloa left because we let his contract run down (Rafa told him not to sign a new contract until he had) Arbeloa then attracted interest from Madrid and left.

Alonso - touted all round europe like a second hand pair of knickers before putting in a transfer request.

Benny, said at Christmas that he was leaving because of Rafa

Masch - said he had been promised by Rafa that he could go the following season.

Yeah sell Torres and when we buy another Keene or Diouf with the money we can all look back and say how unlucky we were.  

Again quoting figures without context, though for me Babel is the only one you could say was in the top class bracket price wise.  £5-10m is the average price for average players nowadays.  That's the market we dealt in, because that was our price range.

Babel was highly rated and sought after through out europe.
As I said, Dossena looked the dog's bollocks in Italy.
Riera & Pennant were decidedly average.

Alonso touted around Europe after two decidedly mediocre seasons in which his prospective replacement, Barry, had definitely outperformed Alonso, unless you're extremely biased.  Christ we had no takers forhim at £12m.  

So far as well, both Benayoun & Cole have been decidedly poor &/or injured. Let's ignore your customary dig at he who shan't be named.

Masch has said a lot of things.  

We will buy another Keane or Diouf at some point, even Kenny brought his share of duds.