Pre-Season Results - Do they ever mean anything?

Pre-season is a funny time, everyone is chomping at the bit for the season to start proper, we scrutinise every movement of our new signings and in the main, most of us are guilty of over-reaction and over-analysis of results and performances. You've only got to look at how excited everyone has been getting about Aquilani's performances to see how pre-season can change (or rmap up) people's opinions of a player. Now personally I'm always a bit worried when we struggle in pre-season mainly because you NEVER EVER see the mancs have a poor pre-season, they might lose the odd one but they still manage to get the job done no matter who is playing or what experimentation is happening. Without checking the facts I'd also say say the same is true of all of our rivals in the top 4-5.

Anyways I'm not really much of  stato but I am a teacher who's 4 week holiday starts tomorrow so I can afford to waste 30 minutes looking at our results over the last 6 pre-seasons just to see if there was any correlation between friendly results and the league season that followed it. I realise I haven't included any Champions League results but I'm not a total geek.

2005/6

Liverpool 4 - 3 Wrexham               W
Liverpool 3 - 0 Bayer Leverkusen    W
Liverpool 4 - 3 Olympiakos             W

We had to qualify for the Champs league that year so only 3 friendly games.

3 Wins - 0 Defeats - 0 Draws

League Season - 3rd - 82pts

-----------------------------

2006/07

Liverpool 2 - 0 Wrexham           W
Liverpool 1 - 0 Crewe               W
Liverpool 2 - 3 Kaiserslauten      L
Liverpool 0 - 2 FC Grasshopper   L
Liverpool 0 - 5 FC Mainz            L

2 Wins - 3 Defeats - 0 Draws

League season - 3rd - 68pts

---------------------------------

2007/8

Liverpool 2 - 0 Auexerre           W
Liverpool 3 - 2 Werder Bremen   W
Liverpool 3 - 0 Crewe               W
Liverpool 3 - 2 Wrexham           W

4 Wins - 0 Defeats - 0 Draws

League season - 4th - 76pts

------------------------------------

2008/9

Liverpool 1 - 0 Tranmere          W
Liverpool 2 - 1 FC Lucerne       W
Liverpool 1 - 1 Wisla Krakow     D
Liverpool 0 - 0 Hertha Berlin     D
Liverpool 0 - 0 Villareal            D
Liverpool 4 - 0 Rangers            W
Liverpool 4 - 1 Valerenga         W
Liverpool 1 - 0 Lazio                W

5 Wins - 0 Defeats - 3 Draws

League season - 2nd - 86pts

---------------------------------------

2009/10

Liverpool 0 - 0 St.Gallen          D
Liverpool 0 - 1 Radip Wien       L
Liverpool 1 - 1 Thailand           D
Liverpool 5 - 0 Singapore         W
Liverpool 0 - 3 Espanyol          L
Liverpool 2 - 0 Lyn Oslo          W
Liverpool 1 - 2 Atletico Madrid  L

2 Wins - 3 Defeats - 2 Draws

League season - 7th - 63pts

-----------------------------------

2010/11

Liverpool 0 - 0 FC Grasshopper                 D
Liverpool 0 - 1 Kaiserslauten                    L
Liverpool 0 - 1 Borussia Monchengladbach  L

League season - 6th - 58pts


Now you can use stats to back up all sorts of arguments but just a few observations from me would be:

- We had our best league season in 2008/09 - Was it a complete coindidence that we had a very good pre-season as well that year?

- Likewise in 2005/06 - A very strong pre-season plus the game swith TNS and other Champ League lightweights was followed by our next best points total over the 6 season stretch.

- In 2006/7 we all had very high hopes for the saide after such a strong finish the previous seaosn but the warning signs were there in pre-season with 3 consecutive losses including an embarrassing 5-0 thumping away to FC Mainz in Germany. We started our league season terribly that year and never recovered our league form despite an excellent run in the Champs League.

- The last two season have both been very poor. they were both preceded by defeats suffered in the pre-season.

The thing that sticks out from the 06/07 pre season is the three defeats running into the opening game of the season.

I think that early pre season results are not too important as the fitness and match time is the key here but getting closer to the season I'm not sure it helps if performances and results are poor.

It must be better to go into the season on the back of two or three good performances and wins than playing badly and getting beat.

I didn't get to see the Hull game and while by all accounts not a great performance I would be a lot more worried if the next three games go the same way.

I think preseason results are only indicative of what may lie ahead during the season if the first team is playing. If you have a mixed up group of starting XI and squad players how can you really get a handle on how the first team is going to perform?

I  still believe that the defense is going to lag behind the offense in preseason as the defenders aren't going to be playing quite as physical as they would in league games. That's just my opinion of course.

Personally i believe the main thing in pre season is to regain ones sharpness, however of course it is not important to loose, no manager or team want to loose a game, period. If you can be unbeaten in pre season, it will definitely give you confidence going into the season, however a loss, could also be highly beneficial as it helps you spot the flaws in a specific team or player chosen, and gives time for the manager to correct them flaws before the competitive season starts.

Personally I believe the main thing in pre season is to regain ones sharpness, however of course it is not important to loose, no manager or team want to loose a game, period. If you can be unbeaten in pre season, it will definitely give you confidence going into the season, however a loss, could also be highly beneficial as it helps you spot the flaws in a specific team or player chosen, and gives time for the manager to correct them flaws before the competitive season starts.

I think you can definately pick-up on a few patterns in pre-season. The clearest one we are seeing so far in this pre-season is that we are conceding goals and that is a concern to me. Three goals in every match against comfortably inferior opposition is a little worrying. I know that we haven't played a first choice back four in any of the games but Carra, Agger, Flanno, Kelly and Big Soto have all featured and they will all see plenty of game time this season. In 2008-09 we were very stingy at the back throughout the pre-season conceding just 3 goals in 8 games (no matter who was playing) and that was something we continued into the start of the new season and beyond.

I'm not saying you can read all sorts from the results or make definitive judgements but I think (as fans) we can be very quick to heap on the praise and get excited after a few good pre-season games and then when we lose it's a case of "well, we never even got to see these in the 80's" or "it's all about the fitness, don't read anything into the result".

Personally i feel, towards the end of pre season, aka now, we should start playing the first 11 that are fit for say 60 minutes just to get them playing well together and understanding each other, especially seeing as we have a couple of new signings in midfield, it is more important then ever.

Personally I feel, towards the end of pre season, aka now, we should start playing the first 11 that are fit for say 60 minutes just to get them playing well together and understanding each other, especially seeing as we have a couple of new signings in midfield, it is more important then ever. .

Only problem is - 1. Players need to be given the chance to get into the first 11. Only way they can do that is through playing 2. We need the whole squad to be fit, not just the first 11 3. Overplaying them now may lead to tiredness towards the end of the season 4. Many of our first team players, Reina, Skrtel, Johnson, Gerrard, Lucas, Suarez are injured or away on international duty

Only problem is - 1. Players need to be given the chance to get into the first 11. Only way they can do that is through playing 2. We need the whole squad to be fit, not just the first 11 3. Overplaying them now may lead to tiredness towards the end of the season 4. Many of our first team players, Reina, Skrtel, Johnson, Gerrard, Lucas, Suarez are injured or away on international duty

1. They can show this in training, or when having cameo appearances in the league itself, what better way to show your worth instead of a meaningless pre season.

2. That is why i say towards the end of the pre season, at least two games, but the players all train hard to regain there fitness.

3. That is true however many players seem to run on momentum rather then the actual physical side of it, if we have a winning streak going and the bond of the first 11 is there fatigue would not be a problem.

4. Yes i acknowledge that, when i said starting 11, i mean the players available.

I think you can definately pick-up on a few patterns in pre-season. The clearest one we are seeing so far in this pre-season is that we are conceding goals and that is a concern to me. Three goals in every match against comfortably inferior opposition is a little worrying.

Good point and if you put yourself in the position of the defenders you would be going into every game with the aim of not conceding no matter who your defensive partners are.

Also the players in the back four would have done some work together in training and in theory could be playing together in the season so it is too simple a view just to simply write of the amount of goals conceded just because it's a pre season game.

But as I said earlier it is the next three games that are the key as if we continue to concede and play poorly at the back those problems could be carried into the opening game.

1. They can show this in training, or when having cameo appearances in the league itself, what better way to show your worth instead of a meaningless pre season.

Training does give a small amount of input but it's still nothing like a match. A match has a far higher tempo and shows more about a player then any training session.

2. That is why I say towards the end of the pre season, at least two games, but the players all train hard to regain there fitness.

Well as I said in point 1, fitness in the gym and the training ground is a lot different to match fitness. You can only get match fitness by playing.

3. That is true however many players seem to run on momentum rather then the actual physical side of it, if we have a winning streak going and the bond of the first 11 is there fatigue would not be a problem.


Well what if we're not winning? There will be moments in a season where we're be struggling.

4. Yes I acknowledge that, when I said starting 11, I mean the players available.

I can see your point but what about in 2/3 weeks time when you need to start replacing players with players who haven't got any match fitness?

I would have to say no.  No in the respect that nothing is up for grabs apart from fitness, sharpness and first team places (and for some players to be in the shop window).

A couple of things to note.  The OP said Man Utd never have a bad pre-season.  Check out their stats from last year:

Man United 3-1 Celtic
Philadelphia Union 0-1 Man United
Kansas City Wizards 2-1 Man United
MLS All-Stars 2-5 Man United
Chivas 3-2 Man United
League of Ireland XI 1-7 Man United

So they lost two games, and conceded 9 goals against inferior opposition.  Could that be classed as poor?  It's not brilliant, but one thing is certain, it had no impact on them winning the league.

Interesting as well that in 06/07, when we reached the CL final for a second time under Rafa.  We'd secured 4th place quite early I recall, and for the last few games, played what you might call weakened teams (the 1-0 defeat to Fulham sticks out, although we did play them off the park).  If we had played full strength teams, we could have ended up with more points theoretically.

Perhaps more interesting are Man City's pre-season results last year:
Portland Timbers 0-3 Man City
Sporting Lisbon 2-0 Man City
New York Red Bulls 2-1 Man City
America 1-1 Man City
Inter Milan 3-0 Man City
Borussia Dortmund 3-1 Man City
Man City 2-0 Valencia

I think they mean nothing.  Surprisingly, talksport came to the same conclusion which is where I got these results from.  Link is below.
http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/2011-07-22/premier-league-big-boys-2010-pre-season-results-did-they-mean-anything

I guess everyones interest and expectation is reignited so if we are perceived to be failing already people are going to start getting a little twitchy.

I think that one thing that can be said of the Hull game is that we'd gotten back from Asia that week and had a couple of days off after all that flying, so I think our lads will have been a little bit off the pace.

I don't have a problem with whatever you decide just be consistent and don't use it to push your agenda.  If you think pre-season results mean nothing, stick by those guns and apply that logic equally.  I hate it when people will say "oh wouldn't read into xxx's performance, it was only a preseason friendly" then two seconds later congratulate someone else on being the best performer in the second half even though it's only a friendly.  If it's not ok for one player to be rusty, don't then use that excuse for another player.

I think they're meaningless - gaining match fitness and avoiding injuries is the most important part for me (which we did, so I see the game as a success).  I'm not concerned in the slightest, this friendly didn't tell me anything I didn't already know.

I think that one thing that can be said of the Hull game is that we'd gotten back from Asia that week and had a couple of days off after all that flying, so I think our lads will have been a little bit off the pace.

Kenny actually said after the game that they had been doing a lot of running and that the work they had done had been the equivalent of playing 1.5 game sin two days.

I would have to say no.  No in the respect that nothing is up for grabs apart from fitness, sharpness and first team places (and for some players to be in the shop window).

A couple of things to note.  The OP said Man Utd never have a bad pre-season.  Check out their stats from last year:

Man United 3-1 Celtic
Philadelphia Union 0-1 Man United
Kansas City Wizards 2-1 Man United
MLS All-Stars 2-5 Man United
Chivas 3-2 Man United
League of Ireland XI 1-7 Man United

So they lost two games, and conceded 9 goals against inferior opposition.  Could that be classed as poor?  It's not brilliant, but one thing is certain, it had no impact on them winning the league.

Interesting as well that in 06/07, when we reached the CL final for a second time under Rafa.  We'd secured 4th place quite early I recall, and for the last few games, played what you might call weakened teams (the 1-0 defeat to Fulham sticks out, although we did play them off the park).  If we had played full strength teams, we could have ended up with more points theoretically.

Perhaps more interesting are Man City's pre-season results last year:
Portland Timbers 0-3 Man City
Sporting Lisbon 2-0 Man City
New York Red Bulls 2-1 Man City
America 1-1 Man City
Inter Milan 3-0 Man City
Borussia Dortmund 3-1 Man City
Man City 2-0 Valencia

I think they mean nothing.  Surprisingly, talksport came to the same conclusion which is where I got these results from.  Link is below.
http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine/features/2011-07-22/premier-league-big-boys-2010-pre-season-results-did-they-mean-anything

I guess everyones interest and expectation is reignited so if we are perceived to be failing already people are going to start getting a little twitchy.

I see what you're saying and in many ways I'm trying to play devil's advocate here. The mancs still had 4 convincing wins during last year's pre-season so I'm not sure I would paint that as a bad pre-season. The point I'm making is that when we kick ass in pre-season everyone is quick to come to positive judgements about this player, that formation, that combination etc but when the results/performances go sour it becomes a meaningless game that is only about match fitness.

I would only be persuaded by the significance of any pre-season/season outcome correlation, Scott, if it covered a longer period and included other clubs's results, because you will undoubtedly find examples that contradict your findings, as the Man U one appears to bear out. It's funny because if Owzat was around he would be on it like a flash with his spread sheets etc. and we'd be in no doubt at all  
Anyway, even if that information was available I'm not convinced it would show a meaningful correlation. Perhaps that's because pre-season functions as a preparation period for the start of the season, and that once the season is well under way, the effects of that period have long since ceased to have an influence on the performance of the team. You might then find a more meaningful correlation by comparing pre-season results with the opening few games of the season.

It's all a bit statistical though and I can't be ar'sed with that right now to be perfectly honest. I'll just keep it simple and say that the gear up to the opening game is better served by winning and performing well in pre-season, particularly the friendlies nearer the start. I think it's the old fluency, rhythm, momentum, winning habit thing.

Historically, going even further back than the OP, I remember in the glory years we had some awful pre-season results.

In all honesty, they don't mean a lot.  Certainly not the games in July. 

They are not combative games like a competitive game is. 

Kenny actually said after the game that they had been doing a lot of running and that the work they had done had been the equivalent of playing 1.5 game sin two days.

I see what you're saying and in many ways I'm trying to play devil's advocate here. The mancs still had 4 convincing wins during last year's pre-season so I'm not sure I would paint that as a bad pre-season. The point I'm making is that when we kick ass in pre-season everyone is quick to come to positive judgements about this player, that formation, that combination etc but when the results/performances go sour it becomes a meaningless game that is only about match fitness.

I never said they had a bad pre-season, I just thought it wasn't especially brilliant as they lost 2 games and leaked a fair few goals 

I see totally what you are saying, if they mean nothing why get upset but at the same time why rave about performances when they mean nothing.  I suspect the root of that might be in what JD said.  Maybe it requires less physical effort to set up a nice move, pass or a great shot from outside the box..... than ..... last ditch sliding tackles that might result in injury?  So, we like to purr over the positive play and (some of us) become distressed when we let goals in during pre-season (if that all makes sense).

The thing that made me a uncomfortable about some of the reaction to the Hull game was that it was only a friendly game, in July, with many mitigating factors.  I thought the day we lose a league game, that means something, it's gonna go crazy knee-jerk in here.

These mean nothing apart from getting your fitness back. There's a reason why we fielded a different side in each half. Hull have been preparing for their season longer, have their first team squad and are no pushovers themselves. We have just returned from Asia, are still intensely working on our fitness and are still missing some important players.

I'm not bothered by the Hull defeat, simply because it means nothing.

They're what they're called friendly pre-season but you can put many things and account on them to calculate and analyze what you got and realize your cons and pros.
I think there are many things may hit us throughout a long 9-month marathon season and they are injuries, fatigue, weak/no depth and quality,... your players may suffer during pre-season.
They say you won't run fast if you can't walk right. When we're struggling to get our bodies fit enough and being organized to get ready for the season our confidence and results were below par from the start and as you may already know you have to stat well or your destiny may fall into others' hands and unfortunately we ain't learned it well

With KD I'm pretty sure we'd start well and can go all the way

Yes.
We should win them. No excuses.
If we are "tired from Asia"   F.F.S. then we shouldn't have arranged the game.

Yes. It's not acceptable to concede 9 goals against 3 poor teams and lose to Hull City.
We're Liverpool.

I think they do train fully before a match sometimes to get maximum training effect.The only results that count start with Sunderland.I really cant get excited either way about friendlies.

The next 3 are tough games and the opposition will be taking it very seriously, we will see how far away we are.....

Also it's a great motivation for smaller teams to beat us in friendlies. Every team has their own targets but at the end of the day nobody wants to lose 'em though.

It's usually all about getting fit and movements for many teams. We heard from Dr Brunker that the boys are fit as they had their own fitness program during holidays, so it's not about fitness anymore. It's about quality and getting know each other more and more. With every game the better players show their quality like Charlie Adam done so far and they naturally get their place concrete right from the start of season.

Interesting hearing both sides of this.  Maybe we should add a poll as well.

My own feeling is that friendlies serve a purpose but they don't mean anything in terms of how a team will perform during a season.  The other side of the argument seems to focus on we shouldn't be losing against lesser teams (we've lost ONCE) and we shouldn't be letting goals in against lesser teams (surely the purpose of friendlies to iron out mistakes?).  I cannot see how saying 'we're Liverpool' should mean we win every pre-season game regardless.

I fear some pretty strong knee-jerks come the season starting if this is how strongly some people feel about friendlies where there is nothing at stake.

No.
They don't.

I'm a passionate hater (if that makes sense) of friendlies. The games are boring, and I can accept that, but what really does my head in is people overreacting because of them. Probably because we all can't wait for a new season of club football. But it's too soon, there's no intensity in the game, nothing to lose or gain from them... No wonder why some of the most questionable talents are the ones who excel in those games (Ngog, Voronin) or youngsters, as they're willing to prove themselves.

There are some laughable conclusions made during pre-seasons that I can think of. I remember when Paletta became the next Carragher because of some games against Crewe and/or mighty Wrexham. Agger was hardly noticed but now we know who was the better one.

Not for me, too many questions that the manager needs to get answered for there to be any bearing on the league. Would Hull beat us in the league when the game is competitive? Nope.

I seen an article the other day where the same question was asked and the same statistics were used for the top 6 teams and the answer was a resounding no for all of them.

Being a student myself, I see pre-season as the test and the league an ongoing exam!!!

We need to have a good result only against Valencia because it is the closest to the start.

Yes they do mean something, no they can't be used to judge whether you'll hav a good season or not

If you win in pre-season, you were supposed to because you have superior players. If you lose in pre-season, it's because your team wasn't ready and the result isn't important.

Couldn't care less, I just want to see signs of good play and fit players. 

i don't think a negative pre-season is any indication on the coming league

a positive one maybe but not a negative one

especially when there've been a lot of new players brought in

everyone's trying to find their place, tactics are being worked around players

a positive pre-season says a team's got it together early on but when a team's being switched up so much and players are playing their first ever games for the club in these matches, i don't think it has any bearings on the coming season, there's still time for everyone to get settled, it's just a teething period

I think the only thing a positive pre-season does is build confidence, players then go into the early matches of the season with the knowledge that they have been playing well both individually and as a team. So it may have an effect on the first few games of the season..... which if things again go well has a knock on effect for more games.   

To this point I'd say that the pre season performances don't mean a thing.  The reason for this, we have not seen anything close to our first XI on the pitch together.  Four of our best players haven't even started training with the team yet.  Once our best back 4 (IMO Kelly,Carra, Agger, Johnson) plays together, behind our best midfield, with our best attack, we won't have a clue as to how things are looking.

For example for the next friendly.   If we saw something like

                              Doni

Kelly                                                      Johnson

             Carra                  Agger


Henderson     Spearing    Adam      Downing


            Kuyt
                         Carroll

As our team for say 60 minutes, I think things would look alot better.

The sides put out so far have been too much of a mix of our good players with youth or deadwood

I think the only thing a positive pre-season does is build confidence, players then go into the early matches of the season with the knowledge that they have been playing well both individually and as a team. So it may have an effect on the first few games of the season..... which if things again go well has a knock on effect for more games.   

that too

my point was, i don't think a negative preseason is anything to worry about

They don't mean a great deal in terms of results IMO. The strongest line up wont be payed all throughout pre-season, there will be many different players used throughout and the important thing is the fitness and conditioning of the players. A lot of times the so called big teams don't have great pre-seasons, we certainly haven't had a cracking pre-season for a long time.

I do think pre season results have some sort of impact. If we spin this the other way and lets pretend we have won every game, then everyone would be saying that the results do have an importance. Would give us a "winning mentality" or "confidence" or something like that. The results themselves wouldn't reward us anything in terms of prizes but the confidence and morale within the squad would be stronger.

The important thing in preseason, is fitness, performance and getting everyone physically and mentally prepared for the season ahead, the results do have some importance in terms of team morale and confidence but getting the players fit and the players prepared for the competitive games is the most important thing.

If basing on results alone, they don't matter much. I am more concern about performances.

We could play really, really well and yet not win. We can also play worse than sh*te, and yet record a win. Though it make sense that better results, generally mean a better performance but it is not necessarily always the case.

For me, pre-season is about:

a) players gaining match fitness
b) new players to gel with the teammates (though can be done in training, nothing is the same as a match situation)
c) new ideas and formations to be tested
d) for Kenny, Clarke and maybe even DC to assess and see which ares need to be improved
e) building confidence and preparing the players physically and mentally, as stated
f) players who have performed below par know they need to step it up during the season if they are not shipped out before then!

Losing during pre-season may also help as stated to see which areas need to be improved. For example, based on the Asia tour, it was pretty obvious our defence needs some sorting out, having conceded 6 goals in total in China and Malaysia.

All in all, whether negative or positive, pre-season helps the players, the team and the manager.

For me, pre-season is all about players getting match fit and ready for the start of the season. Obviously it's nice to get a few wins under our belts but just generally preparing for the first few games is what's key for me, including trying out different formations and players and not so much the results.

Probably not but our past few seasons I think our performances have been equally as uninspiring in pre season.

I look at the Mancs waltzing their way through minor teams quite easily and they just look better prepared and sharper than we do at this stage and if were honest they will be favourites for the title again.

Personally I would like to see beating the likes of Hull even at this early stage.

Any thoughts after last nights dismal display....??

Any thoughts after last nights dismal display....??

I think we all have to pray that pre-season results mean nothing...... god help us if our season is defined by them. 

The whole pre season and transfers up to now has resulted in some massive knee jerk reactions.

The results mean F**k all, and some people just need to chill the F**k out.

Judge Kenny and the players in May, not now.

The whole pre season and transfers up to now has resulted in some massive knee jerk reactions.

The results mean f**k all, and some people just need to chill the f**k out.

Judge Kenny and the players in May, not now.

Excellent!

There's been lots of 'advice' for KD too, he should be doing this, he shouldn't be playing like that etc. 

Absolute hogwash and piffle.  August 13 onwards is ALL that matters.  As someone said, back in our heyday, we had some apalling pre-season results.  It.  Does.  Not.  Matter.

Any thoughts after last nights dismal display....??

------------ Doni -----------------
Flanagan - Kelly - Kyrgiakos - Insua

Degen and Robinson on the wings as well.


Fortunately for us, we won't line-up like that against Sunderland.

Pre-season means a lot to many whether or not they'd like to say it. If we are playing enchanting pass and move system throughout the entire pre-season whilst scoring a lot of goals, we'd be looking at the start of the season with more than a glimmer of hope. Likewise, when you struggle through the pre-season you tend to have certain reservations as to how well you'll perform once the season commences.

At the moment we're not fielding our best 11, so there's still a meaningful long way to go before we can truly say or state what sort of competitive position we're in. I reckon against Valencia we should be, ideally fielding something very close to the starting 11. The pre-season all helps the players mentally, if they're off to a cracker, it's most likely they look forward to the impeding season with great anticipation, rather than doubting whether or not they're ready to perform at a high level.

 The short answer to the topic starter is yes, of course they do. If you spank Barcelona 3-1 in a pre season game by playing the new brand of high energy, high press football the manager has had you working on in training for four weeks, of course it would give you extra confidence and zip. Similarly if you get done 4-0 at home by Grimsby and most of your first team are playing, yes it would have an effect in the next match.

 For us right now we are developing a habit of conceding lots of goals which naturally isn´t a good one, while we haven´t scored a goal for two matches. It doesn´t define our season, but it would be nice to win one, that´s for sure. 

Shows us our defensive options are extremely bare

Shows us our defensive options are extremely bare

 It demonstrates it quite graphically mate I agree, but to be honest the gaps have been there for quite a while now. I´ve felt we needed a really top class centre half for two or three seasons TBH, I really think the aquisition of one would see us being a completely different proposition.

 I know some really rate Agger. I don´t particularly but it´s a moot point anyway as he´s barely fit more often than Johnathon Woodgate, not as good either but there you go. Apart from him we are left with Carra who is still our best defender by miles, and Skyrtel and the Greek fella, neither of whom IMHO are good enough for a top team.

 Now I´m not saying I could name you a top class centre half who is available and affordable, but that we need one I´m absolutely certain. I think Cahill would absolutely walk into our team, perhaps Christopher Samba, I like the fella Perea at Athletico Madrid on the couple of times I´ve seen him (like sh*t off a shiny shovel he is) and maybe it´s Dann or someone similar. Whoever it is though, we need to find and sharpish.

 At left back I would go with Jack Robinson as I think he is going to be an absolutely top player. Insua is miles away from being good enough and that isn´t ever going to change.

I think the time to pass judgement will be when the season kicks off in a couple of weeks,if we get away to a good start I dare say nobody will give a sh*t about the pre season results.

PR Results? They should mean something...



In this case, best forgotten.   August 13th is the real world.

As JD said, there seems, this year especially, that there is/has been more interest in pre season results and performances than the Europa league last season.  Quite baffling really for games that mean little.

I'm still firmly in the 'no' side.  Good for fitness etc but in terms of results and beating good opposition, no.  There is not the same level of committment in friendly games and I think only in one game have we played anything resembling our first choice defence. 

August 13 onwards is what matters.  My worry is that plenty have been upset by pre-season so far, so if we don't hit the ground running, people will be on Kenny's back from the start.

"NO". How can anyone judge how we will perform in the season coming when we haven't played a full strength team yet? I'm sure there's a hell of a lot of work going on behind closed door's. New player's,new formation's.Nobody outside the club will know what to expect.Bring it on.

The only thing Pre-season has shown so far is that we still have defensive problems to sort out. Thankfully Poulsen won't play too many games this season, and I'm sure Kenny will have the lads sorted when we play Sunderland.
No need to panic IMO.

Problem with friendlies is that they aren't competitive games.

No doubt in my mind that players play within themselves, and quite a lot of players are also aware they are about to be sold/loaned out etc.

The vast majority of the older generation of fans will be amazed that so many people seem to be placing such weight on these results.

The first result that matters is against Sunderland at home, until then we can get as optimistic or pessimistic as we want.  Doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

Yes they do mean something, to me at least. I get pissed off any time I see Liverpool lose, whether that be against some no mark side in the middle of the Swiss mountains, on the opening day of the season or the final of the European Cup - a defeat hurts me as a fan.

Whatever it might mean, I just think if a good pre season equates to a good season, and a bad pre season equates to a bad season......so far,  we are foocked.

Just to put into context...

The scum beat Barca (sans  Messi ) last night in a U.S. tournament.
Little Judas Mickey O scored one.



.....and we are just bullshitting ourselves saying "Oh well. Its not important".

Thats bollocks.



Grimsby?  Hull ? Yeh. Home of the Cod.

The latter part of pre season friendly matters for the team. It's usually an indication on how well the players have settled into the formation and tactics.. and we'll get an idea on what play style we'll be expecting from the team.

But, I don't think the results matter as such, I'd rather we lose and play well than win and play badly.

I think the next few friendlies will have more of a baring on the Sunderland game than anything played so far . Tomorrow and the Valencia games will show us where we are at I reckon . Think we will see who will be starting against Sunderland more or less in the coming games. If we are kack then ,well you can start to worry .

 I´m a touch worried now if I´m perfectly honest. Not that I think we are as Igor puts it "kack" because we aren´t, but I think the friendlies so far show that as a unit we are some way off being ready to rumble. I really think it is going to be very difficult for us to get into the top four this season, and I think it is absolutely crucial that we ready from game one. Sunderland at Home is a very winnable opening fixture, and we really want to be ready to rock and roll on that day.

 I´ve no doubt that after a few weeks our quality will show through, but in a season where four teams will be harbouring beliefs that they have a chance of winning the title (Both manc clubs, Arsenal and Chelsea)* it is likely that at least a couple of them will come out the blocks very quickly indeed. We really don´t want to be in a situation where we are eighth after ten matches and seven points off of fourth. We might not get it back, and we need to start quick. I´m c ertain of that much.  

 * I think only three teams have a chance myself. Arsenal can´t win it.

It would be interesting to see the stats on teams that have won the PL and how they played in their preseasons ,Manure Chelsea Arsenal ,even ourselves in 08/09 season we were runners up how did we do in our preseason that year.?

http://www.anfield-online.co.uk/fixtures/2009/friendlies/
We played very well that preseason make of it what ye like , so far our preseason does not bode well for the season ahead.

From what I've seen of pre season, I just feel there's no real cohesion , fluidity in passing and composure unless Aquilani is playing :/

The results maybe do not matter but team patterns, fluency and movement do matter and so far we have not shown any.

Do we expext to hit the ground running when our 1st 11 with the exception of Suarez havent played a game together yet.

From what I have seen the Mancs and Chelsea have both been putting out the majority of their 1st 11 or at least their bench players and I expect both these teams to be challenging for honours.

Its the lack of everything that worries me at the moment.

Dirk Kuyt says Liverpool FC have plenty of time to address their pre-season problems

DIRK KUYT insists Liverpool still have time to put things right ahead of their Premier League opener against Sunderland at Anfield.

The Reds were held to a 3-3 draw by Valerenga in Oslo last night and they have now conceded 15 goals in five friendlies.

However, the Dutchman insists there is no reason to panic with just one pre-season game to come against Valencia at Anfield on Saturday before the visit of the Black Cats on August 13.

“We're very disappointed with the result,” Kuyt said.

“We had a really bad start to the game and conceded two goals. They were sharp and aggressive and played very well in the first half.

“I think from 2-0 down we tried to come back into the game and we scored some good goals. We played better in the second half and got ourselves 3-2 up but then gave it away at the end.

“We have to do a little bit more to be ready for the league but we still have time to work on things. We had a good trip to Asia, we've all worked hard and the next step is to put that into the games.

“I'm not concerned as it's still pre-season. If we beat Sunderland in our first game then it's been a good pre-season for us.”

Kuyt believes it's unfair to point the finger at his side's defenders for the glut of goals which Kenny Dalglish's men have conceded.

“We are letting in too many goals but the point is we have to defend like a team,” he added.

“That starts from the front and we need to improve.

“We know we have the ability and we just need to train really hard.

“We have another practise game on Saturday to put things right. I'm sure if we do that a little bit better in the next game then we will be ready for Sunderland.”

Kuyt also paid tribute to the support Liverpool enjoyed inside the Ullevaal Stadium.

“It's amazing how many Liver-pool supporters we have got over here,” Kuyt said. “I've played here before and it's always great to come to Norway.”

Raul Meireles missed the trip due to a bruised foot and Martin Skrtel is still hampered by a calf injury.

Liverpool Echo

It's hard to be optimistic to fix the problems in time to be honest. I think they need time and we should be patient to see the team playing at the expecting standard. Some are off injured and some are new and it's natural to see below par performances. The coaching staff have a tough work to address and fix it in time. We have abilities to cope with and get some results if not ideal and I predict a gradually strong performance on time.

Dirk Kuyt says Liverpool FC have plenty of time to address their pre-season problems

DIRK KUYT insists Liverpool still have time to put things right ahead of their Premier League opener against Sunderland at Anfield.

The Reds were held to a 3-3 draw by Valerenga in Oslo last night and they have now conceded 15 goals in five friendlies.

However, the Dutchman insists there is no reason to panic with just one pre-season game to come against Valencia at Anfield on Saturday before the visit of the Black Cats on August 13.

“We're very disappointed with the result,” Kuyt said.

“We had a really bad start to the game and conceded two goals. They were sharp and aggressive and played very well in the first half.

“I think from 2-0 down we tried to come back into the game and we scored some good goals. We played better in the second half and got ourselves 3-2 up but then gave it away at the end.

“We have to do a little bit more to be ready for the league but we still have time to work on things. We had a good trip to Asia, we've all worked hard and the next step is to put that into the games.

“I'm not concerned as it's still pre-season. If we beat Sunderland in our first game then it's been a good pre-season for us.”

Kuyt believes it's unfair to point the finger at his side's defenders for the glut of goals which Kenny Dalglish's men have conceded.

“We are letting in too many goals but the point is we have to defend like a team,” he added.

“That starts from the front and we need to improve.

“We know we have the ability and we just need to train really hard.

“We have another practise game on Saturday to put things right. I'm sure if we do that a little bit better in the next game then we will be ready for Sunderland.”

Kuyt also paid tribute to the support Liverpool enjoyed inside the Ullevaal Stadium.

“It's amazing how many Liver-pool supporters we have got over here,” Kuyt said. “I've played here before and it's always great to come to Norway.”

Raul Meireles missed the trip due to a bruised foot and Martin Skrtel is still hampered by a calf injury.

Liverpool Echo

It's hard to be optimistic to fix the problems in time to be honest. I think they need time and we should be patient to see the team playing at the expecting standard. Some are off injured and some are new and it's natural to see below par performances. The coaching staff have a tough work to address and fix it in time. We have abilities to cope with and get some results if not ideal and I predict a gradually strong performance on time.

Time is one thing we do not have,the season kicks off in less than 2 weeks,every player who puts on our RED shirt should be breaking their neck to secure a position in the starting eleven.The last thing we need is players who are content to sit on the bench picking up their wages not concerned if they play or not.Winning can be habit forming and from experience I know there is no better feeling in the world than seeing L.F.C. sitting on top of the league.

I don't really look into this pre season results, because it means absolute F**k all.

It's all about the players gaining match fitness and Kenny & co assessing the team.

The business end of things starts in less than 2 weeks, until then I'm all chilled.

It is a bit worrying that we are leaking goals but if you look at the different combinations of CB,s and FB,s that we,ve been using then to me it looks like experimentation from Kenny. He can obviously see that we need to freshen things up in defence. If we can keep Agger fit, then thats going to be a big plus for us. We hav,nt seen alot of Skrtel yet so he is in line to come back. Around the areas of the team we still have lots of players to come back in. Lucas, Miereles, Suarez to name but a few so i,m not to bothered. We had the same problem with abcentees last season cos of the World Cup.
If we get a LB,CB and a new striker i think we,ll be ok.

Tue 05th August 2008
4-1 v Valerenga
Alonso (19) Torres (49) Benayoun (60) NGog (84)

We drew with Valarenga so that's almost guaranteed relegation. We should just sack KK now.

Based on wathcing all of our pre-season games so far these are my thoughts:

- If we do not bring in another defender (or two) we will not be in the top 4 this season for goals conceded (I'm not saying we won't make top 4 overall) this coming season. You can argue Kenny has been trying different combinations at the back and that we have perhaps missed the defensive responsibility of Lucas in front of the back four BUT we've looked way off the pace no matter who has played there. Five consecutive games of conceding 3 goals is the headline that jumps out from pre-season. PLEASE can we stump up the cash to go after a Cahill, Shawcross or another blue chip CB prospect because it's the key to us having a good season.

- Like him or not, Aquilani has probably been the brightest player across the pre-season schedule. Must admit I'm a little bored of the endless debate about the lad but I'm really intrigued to see if he can get himself involved during the early part of the season and then somehow (against all the odds) turn his LFC career around. Seemingly we don't particular watn him and he dopesn't particular want to be here but you never know.

- Can we get away without bringing in a new left-back? Robinson has really impressed and has (for me) along with Aquailani been our most impressive performer based on the pre-season games. If making do with what we have at Left-Back meant we could spend the rest of the budget on a new centre-half I'm all for it. I think the young lad is up to it.

- Players who haven't quite looked up to last year's end of season form (for me) have been Kuyt, Martin Kelly and Jay Spearing.

- Of the new signings Downing jumps off the page as the one who can bring the most at this stage. Adam has shown a few flashes and Henderson looks like a very tidy, quick thinking footballer who has made a solid start so far.

- We need a fit Pepe Reina.

- We haven't yet figured out the best way to use Andy Carroll. he's been shorn of real support and we've failed to get bodies around him during pre-season despite the fact he's taken a couple of goals. It WON'T be enough to simply get the ball wide and deliver good crosses and he offers no pace in behind which has made us a little predictable going forward. That's 80's football and it doesn't cut it in the big leagues in this day and age.

- We are a VERY different proposition when Luis Suarez is not in the side. Given Gerrard's long-term health are we in danger of becoming a one-man team again?

- The Academy continues to show it's strength with young Connor Coady showing that he has a future at LFC with a strong pre-season. Also, a number of the under-18s (Silva, Ngoo, Morgan, Suso, Sterling) have had a solid pre-season stepping up to the reserve side.

- If the season started tomorrow Flanno would be my choice for RB ahead of both Johnson and Kelly.

Pre -season games are to try and achieve sharpness and see how the new lads gel together, so yes, for me they are important and i would like to see our first 11 play a few games together before we start our new season under a proper manager ! and not Woy !

I'm not a genius to lecture but I've learned, from my short footy career, that modern football is more like a chess today and every manager need pieces to place in his plans and that's the quality of pieces that play a big part. We've got talent and experience all in there and now it's up to KD and his assistant to get the best out of our boys and I've grown up to believe this man and everything he touches turns gold and I'll put my life on it once again to lift the trophy after such a long time waiting.

I can remember the start of last season when Chelsea were on fire ,they were scoring just for fun ,then they went to sh*t, so i wouldn"t be too concerned about getting off to a flying start, a nice steady pace not to over do it, 1- 0 wins would do us lovely.

I can remember the start of last season when Chelsea were on fire ,they were scoring just for fun ,then they went to sh*t, so I wouldn"t be too concerned about getting off to a flying start, a nice steady pace not to over do it, 1- 0 wins would do us lovely.

Good point.  I remember Villa started really well a couple of seasons back as they were playing early in the intertoto cup.  By January they were pretty much spent out.

I think in these times of technology the players fitness is monitored to be at the required level.  Tactics are worked on in training and there is a certain amount of cloak and dagger regarding starting XI's for the first game.  Pre season helps these things along.

The important ingredients to add on Aug 13 are the improved mental focus, the attitude and the increased commitment.  Things you don't get to the same level in friendlies.

http://live4liverpool.com/2011/08/view-from-the-kop/so-what-have-we-learnt-about-the-reds-this-pre-season


So what have we learnt about the Reds this pre-season?

Posted on Thursday, 4th August 2011 by Elliott Tunstall

(Liverpool in action during a Liverpool training session at Melwood Training Ground)

Pre-season is nearing its anticipated climax and with only one game remaining, it has been an interesting period and one which has bettered our knowledge of the squad as a whole. All of our friendly games so far have reminded Liverpool FC fans of the strengths and weaknesses of the current crop of players and what is potentially needed to rectify this before the window slams shut at the end of the month.

First and foremost, the one aspect that has been the most alarming factor of pre-season; the sloppiness and vulnerability of our defence. It is no secret that Liverpool have somehow managed to concede three goals in each and every one of their five friendlies so far. Conceding three goals has been no co-incidence either as it has been worryingly evident that some of our defenders just aren’t up to scratch and reinforcements are sorely needed.

Jamie Carragher and Soto Kyrgiakos, regardless of their individual abilities at the heart of the defence, are not getting any younger. Hopefully, Daniel Agger is getting fitter and gaining more endurance but there are no guarantees that Kenny Dalglish will get a full season out of the Dane. For me, Martin Skrtel has too many mistakes in his locker so a centre-back has definitely got to be brought in. I am not going to name any particular names as there has been too many linked with Liverpool already but we are in desperate need of a dominant figure to slot in at central defence, whether it be permanently or in a rotation policy.

During pre-season our midfield has looked impressive. All three new signings of Charlie Adam, Jordan Henderson and Stewart Downing have stood out and all look like the type of player any supporter would like to see in their team. Downing provides Liverpool with the direct width we have been crying out for over the past decade and both Adam and Henderson look to be able to provide the creativity any team thrives on. Even some of the fringe players such as Alberto Aquilani and Joe Cole have excelled although I expect to see the midfield trimmed down before the transfer window shuts with the likes of Christian Poulsen, Aquilani and possibly Cole following Milan Jovanovic out the doors of Anfield to clear up some much needed funds. I fully expect Kenny to concentrate on defensive recruitment and feel as though all the midfield signings have been done for this particular window.

Why Liverpool and Arsenal fans should forget pre-season defeats and my fantasy team

By Robbie Savage - Published 23:11 04/08/11

Liverpool have shipped 15 in five pre-season games and Arsenal were booed off at the Emirates after conceding sloppy goals. And you know what? It doesn’t matter a bit.

Yes, both those teams need to sign commanding centre-halves but pre-season games are no indication of what is going to happen in the season.

While the long campaign is about how you perform and gel as a team, pre-season is about you as an individual. You’ve got to get as fit as you can and outperform your closest rivals in the squad to make sure you’re in that starting XI on opening day. The team ethic can wait.

So there is no real reason for concern at poor pre-season results. And no reason for United or City fans to get overexcited about Sunday’s Community Shield either.

Both managers will want to use the exercise to suss out their closest rivals - and I mean closest at the top of the the league now, as well as geographically - and for that reason neither will show their hand by playing their first-choice side.

***

Was at the Emirates last Sunday for ESPN and no sooner had I said on TV that Theo Walcott needed to work on the consistency of his crossing than the Arsenal ace collared me at half-time.

Theo said some nice things about me championing him over his ridiculous World Cup omission, but pointed out he’d set up Robin van Persie’s last eight goals and that crossing was becoming a strong suit of his game.

That showed what a passion for the game this kid has.

I’ve always thought Theo was a very good player. But if he can find his man 80 percent of the time rather than 50 percent, he can be a great one.

Cesc Fabregas noticed me sitting at ESPN’s on-pitch analysis desk and Tweeted: “Robbie Savage is in the corner where I nutmegged him a couple of seasons ago. He must like it.” He didn’t mention the centre circle, where I battered him year after year!

***

Here’s my fantasy team of the season: Hart (Man C); Bardsley (Sunderland), Woodgate (Stoke), W Brown (Sunderland), JA Riise (Fulham); Duff (Fulham), Silva, De Jong (both Man C), Ireland (Villa), Aguero (Man C), Suarez (Liverpool).

Aguero’s signing is the reason City will finish top two this season – they’ve shrugged off Carlos Tevez’s transfer request and replaced him with someone who I think is even better.

MirrorFootball

It's good to hear from a footballer point of view some truth about pre-season games.

Robbie Savage = 

Pre season results only matter if you win. If you don't, then they don't matter, bit like the Carling Cup.

Yeah Robbie Savage talking about football is something along the same lines as Mike Tyson discussing the fine work of Isembard Kingdom Brunel, something just tells me to not put much weight into what they're saying.

It matters to a certain extent. I remember the pre-season before Rafa's disastrous last year, and we were not very good at all - it worried me that there didn't seem to be a lot of cohesion and the team didn't look ready. And that came out in league play, unfortunately.

This pre-season has shown me that we are not yet where we need to be, but there is direction. I see the way Kenny wants us to play, im seeing some good signs. Defense needs work, but thats why we play these games. Kenny and co will keep working on the areas that need it, and keep trying to perfect the areas that are already looking good.

Pre-season is a lot of shuffling and youngsters yes, but it aint completely irrelevant to the season proper.

The only real weak link has been our defense.

Get that sorted, including distribution, and we aren't badly set at all, especially considering the players to come back or get full fitness.

I want us to stop hitting it long though - it's OK to mix it up a bit, but frankly it's gone too far.

I would also like to see us press high up the pitch more, which should be less of a problem as players get their match fitness back.

NO!!
NO!! that is all!!