North Sea League

Yes. And in the long term, it would help the national leagues overall, since the top clubs would be able to keep their best players for a year or two longer, raising the profile of the leagues, and therefore improving the sponsorship and TV money for the national leagues. It is a chain reaction.

Yeah because who could stop a player joining another European club when they can go to Norway, Sweden and other domestic powerhouses to strut their stuff instead?

Dead in the water, this idea. Or dead in the North Sea if you will.

Yeah because who could stop a player joining another European club when they can go to Norway, Sweden and other domestic powerhouses to strut their stuff instead?

You seriously think that players go to England because of the fine weather?

You seriously think that players go to England because of the fine weather?

I think you missed my angle...

If your argument is that it will keep players from moving clubs, i would argue otherwise. The standard of competition of this league would undoubtedly be unable to match the standards of the best players in Holland and thus result in them moving to a top European club earlier.

I think you missed my angle.

If your argument is that it will keep players from moving clubs, i would argue otherwise.

It seems you are the one that has missed my angle:

Yes. And in the long term, it would help the national leagues overall, since the top clubs would be able to keep their best players for a year or two longer, raising the profile of the leagues, and therefore improving the sponsorship and TV money for the national leagues. It is a chain reaction.

Losing the top players couple of years later could be a major difference, and you know that.

Why would they stay longer if the prestige of the competition will, if anything, be degraded? That is where you indeed missed my point.

Why would the top players in Holland want to stay and play against Swedish nomarks for one or two years more when they could move to the La Liga, Premier League, Bundesliga or Serie A?

Why would they stay longer if the prestige of the competition will, if anything, be degraded? That is where you indeed missed my point.

Why would the top players in Holland want to stay and play against Swedish nomarks for one or two years more when they could move to the La Liga, Premier League, Bundesliga or Serie A?

There is nothing as sweet as earning your millions and challenging in the CL with your boyhood club.

The regional league is not the ultimate target. It is just a tool.

What money? The only new money coming in would be through renegotiated TV and league sponsorship deals. No new fans, no new stadiums, no new nothing. It will be the same revenue in that department and probably the newly negotiated deals will be allocated and equalling the exact same for the top clubs anyway.

If they want money, they move to the big European leagues. An increase of 1 million bucks of revenue won't be enough to make every player happy enough to stay. At most each club will earn a minute fraction more money that will be insufficient to keep any top player at a certain club.

No club in that region will earn mega bucks from a newly formed league and they risk isolating fans and reducing stadium revenue from decreased away fans who would have to buy an overseas ticket to see their team every second week.

It's preposterous.

Interesting statistics are Ajax's average attendance for home games in the Arena. For Dutch League games: 47.000. For Champions League games: 50.000. For Europa League games: 35.000. And PSV averages about 32.000 for home games in the Dutch League, and only 22.000 for the Europa League. Eredivisie average attendances are really good, 6th in Europe, pretty much on par with Ligue 1 and not that far behind the Serie A either. Confirms that Dutch people are satisfied with the state of Dutch football. And to go a bit further into this, PSV played at home against Glasgow Rangers last season in the last 16 knockout phase of the Europa League, 26.000 attendance. And Ajax played against Anderlecht in the last 32 knockout phase, 42.000 attendance. And that's the knockout phase, a year before that they played them in the group stage, 36.000 attendance. And Anderlecht and Rangers are big names compared to the Scandinavian clubs. PSV played against Kopenhagen in the group stage of the Europa League 2 years ago, only 16.000 attendance. That's half the attendance of what they have against small Dutch clubs like RKC, VVV and Excelsior.

Interesting statistics are Ajax's average attendance for home games in the Arena. For Dutch League games: 47.000. For Champions League games: 50.000. For Europa League games: 35.000. And PSV averages about 32.000 for home games in the Dutch League, and only 22.000 for the Europa League. Eredivisie average attendances are really good, 6th in Europe, pretty much on par with Ligue 1 and not that far behind the Serie A either. Confirms that Dutch people are satisfied with the state of Dutch football. And to go a bit further into this, PSV played at home against Glasgow Rangers last season in the last 16 knockout phase of the Europa League, 26.000 attendance. And Ajax played against Anderlecht in the last 32 knockout phase, 42.000 attendance. And that's the knockout phase, a year before that they played them in the group stage, 36.000 attendance. And Anderlecht and Rangers are big names compared to the Scandinavian clubs. PSV played against Kopenhagen in the group stage of the Europa League 2 years ago, only 16.000 attendance. That's half the attendance of what they have against small Dutch clubs like RKC, VVV and Excelsior.

Why are you throwing these random attendance numbers at me? We are obviously talking about two completely different things here. Just to give you a hint, these are the top 20 earners in the European football:

01. Real Madrid (25%)
02. Barcelona (26%)
03. Man Utd (39 %)
04. Bayern Munich (21%)
05. Arsenal (45%)
06. Chelsea (36%)
07. Liverpool (23%)
08. Juventus (8%)
09. Inter (14%)
10. AC Milan (17%)
11. HSV (38%)
12. AS Roma (13%)
13. Lyon (16%)
14. Marseille (19%)
15. Tottenham (35%)
16. Schalke (23%)
17. Werder (24%)
18. Dortmund (21%)
19. Man City (24%)
20. Newcastle (34%)

What do you think those percentages represent?

Those aren't random. Or do ticket sales now not bring in money anymore? It's very clear in Holland that attendances will drop against teams from the North Sea League, compared to games in the Dutch league. It's clear that there will be less interest in general in Holland in watching those games compared to games from The Dutch League, and that will reflect in tv viewers ratings aswell. That's going to cost those clubs money. But obviously that doesn't fit your utopian vision of the North Sea League.

Those aren't random. Or do ticket sales now not bring in money anymore? It's very clear in Holland that attendances will drop against teams from the North Sea League, compared to games in the Dutch league. It's clear that there will be less interest in general in Holland in watching those games compared to games from The Dutch League, and that will reflect in tv viewers ratings aswell. That's going to cost those clubs money. But obviously that doesn't fit your utopian vision of the North Sea League.

Yes, the ticket sales do bring in money. And I've shown you above exactly how much money.

As for the dropped interest in watching those matches on TV, you are 100% wrong. The Ajax v Anderlecht or PSV v Celtic will always get better TV ratings worldwide, than Norwich v Swansea or Rayo Vallecano v Racing Santander.

Not to mention that the sponsors always target markets, and the 55-million market will always be far more interesting and more lucrative than a 17-million market.

Yes, the ticket sales do bring in money. And I've shown you above exactly how much money.

As for the dropped interest in watching those matches on TV, you are 100% wrong. The Ajax v Anderlecht or PSV v Celtic will always get better TV ratings worldwide, than Norwich v Swansea or Rayo Vallecano v Racing Santander.

Not to mention that the sponsors always target markets, and the 55-million market will always be far more interesting and more lucrative than a 17-million market.

You've shown me that for some clubs it's a big part of their revenue, and for others a smaller part. Considering the high attendance Dutch clubs have, and the low income from TV, it's safe to assume that match day revenue is a big part of a Dutch club's income. Attendances have acually increased here over the last decade, like 20%. While they have stagnated or dropped in many other leagues. And there's still plenty of room for growth. Ajax is looking to expand, Twente is expanding, and will continue doing so for the next years. PSV is looking into building a bigger stadium. And so is Feyenoord, who are planning to build a 85.000 seater in the future.

As for dropped interest, I'm not wrong. I was very clear that I was talking about Holland. The interest will drop here. And the Dutch market and Dutch viewers will always be more important than the foreign ones for Dutch clubs.  The fact that you have to compare it to games of small clubs like Norwich, Swansea and Raya Vallecano says anough about how little interest there will actually be on an international level. None of the North Sea League games would be able to compete with any decent games from any of the bigger leagues, not any different from now.

Mac, you seem to be avoiding some of my posts...

Where are these new fans coming from? Where's all of this new money coming from?

You've shown me that for some clubs it's a big part of their revenue, and for others a smaller part. Considering the high attendance Dutch clubs have, and the low income from TV, it's safe to assume that match day revenue is a big part of a Dutch club's income. Attendances have acually increased here over the last decade, like 20%. While they have stagnated or dropped in many other leagues. And there's still plenty of room for growth. Ajax is looking to expand, Twente is expanding, and will continue doing so for the next years. PSV is looking into building a bigger stadium. And so is Feyenoord, who are planning to build a 85.000 seater in the future.

My point exactly. If you look at the biggest earners in European club footbal (by the way, the Dutch clubs are nowhere to be seen on that list), you will notice that the match-day revenue for most of them represents 20-30% of their total income. The rest is TV money and sponsorship money. As ugly as this sounds, the North Sea League would be a TV/sponsorship league.

As for dropped interest, I'm not wrong. I was very clear that I was talking about Holland. The interest will drop here. And the Dutch market and Dutch viewers will always be more important than the foreign ones for Dutch clubs.  The fact that you have to compare it to games of small clubs like Norwich, Swansea and Raya Vallecano says anough about how little interest there will actually be on an international level. None of the North Sea League games would be able to compete with any decent games from any of the bigger leagues, not any different from now.

Well, you cant expect to beat the TV ratings of the LFC v Mancs or Barca V Real Madrid. You have to start somewhere. And you still don't understand the concept of TV rights. You can't compare the domestic TV rights in a big market like England or Spain, with the domestic TV rights in a small market like Holland. For clubs like Ajax, Anderlecht or Celtic, it is the international TV rights that are important.

Look, I understand that you have traditional views at the game of football, and I respect that. Unfortunately, your views are a thing of the past, and only a romantic remainder of the times when everything was different. It was the views like that that has kept Liverpool FC so far behind the likes of Man Utd and Arsenal over the past 2 decades.

For all what's been said here, from my view (I live in Belgium) this is not going to happen. The one thing I could see happening is a BENE-Liga with the best teams from Belgium and Holland, which has been talked about a lot.  I believe People here find it much more interesting to watch Standard - Genk or Brugge - Gent then Anderlecht -Malmo or Brugge Copenhagen.

We understand that we are far behind the big clubs in Europe and that Anderlecht or Brugge won't play any european final soon, but so be it. It's all about the cup and the league and if there is a team in the Champions league like Genk this  year, we support it and hope it gets as far as possible, but of course we don't expect it to reach the knock-out stage. Creating a North sea league just for the sake of the money is not in the best interest of the biggest part of the belgian football fan!

My point exactly. If you look at the biggest earners in European club footbal (by the way, the Dutch clubs are nowhere to be seen on that list), you will notice that the match-day revenue for most of them represents 20-30% of their total income. The rest is TV money and sponsorship money. As ugly as this sounds, the North Sea League would be a TV/sponsorship league.

Well, you cant expect to beat the TV ratings of the LFC v Mancs or Barca V Real Madrid. You have to start somewhere. And you still don't understand the concept of TV rights. You can't compare the domestic TV rights in a big market like England or Spain, with the domestic TV rights in a small market like Holland. For clubs like Ajax, Anderlecht or Celtic, it is the international TV rights that are important.

Look, I understand that you have traditional views at the game of football, and I respect that. Unfortunately, your views are a thing of the past, and only a romantic remainder of the times when everything was different. It was the views like that that has kept Liverpool FC so far behind the likes of Man Utd and Arsenal over the past 2 decades.

Ajax actually made their highest revenue in club history last season, about 100 million. Which isn't all that far behind the current number 20. Can't say that they're not doing well. Many of those % don't give an accurate image. For Spanish and Italian clubs, their tv revenue were not shared in a fair way. And all of those clubs get more TV money from European football too because of the league they're in. As Arsenal shows though alot can be achieved with match day revenue aswell. 2 games Dutch clubs would play in the North Sea League every week, while normally there would be 9 games, 18 clubs earning money instead of just 2. It would mean the end of a club like Feyenoord, or any chance that they might retun to form, while have just as many supporters here as Ajax have. Would mean the end of the growth of clubs like Twente and AZ, who are gaining on PSV and Ajax. It would basically be the end of everything that makes the Dutch League still interesting. It's actually more entertaining and competitive now than it ever been, because other teams out of the big 3 are competing for the title too.

And thank you for patronising me once again. Ofcourse I don't understand TV rights because I don't agree with you. You understand them so much better than me.*cough*
I wasn't comparing domestic TV rights. I was basically just saying that on an international market, games from the North Sea League wouldn't even be able to compete with average games from the big leagues. It's not different from how it is now. How many people besides Scots/Irish and Dutch are interested in watching PSV-Ajax or Celtic-Rangers? Yet plenty people on here even watch fairly average Spanish, Italian or German games on a weekly basis. That's not going to change. Your utopian view of this North Sea League and it's international tv rights are just unrealistic.

And I don't really see how Liverpool belongs in this discussion. If anything, Liverpool has always done well commercially.

Ajax actually made their highest revenue in club history last season, about 100 million.

Now you are shamelessly making up things, and to be honest, I have no intention of wasting any more time on someone who does that.

http://www.deloitte.com/assets/Dcom-UnitedKingdom/Local%20Assets/Documents/Industries/Sports%20Business%20Group/UK_SBG_DFML2011.pdf

Now you are shamelessly making up things, and to be honest, I have no intention of wasting any more time on someone who does that.

http://www.deloitte.com/assets/Dcom-UnitedKingdom/Local%20Assets/Documents/Industries/Sports%20Business%20Group/UK_SBG_DFML2011.pdf

That document never mentions Ajax or the Eredivise?

That document never mentions Ajax or the Eredivise?

Exactly. That document mentions the 30 highest earning clubs in Europe last season, and Ajax (or any other Eredivisie club) is not on that list. The 30th club on that list is West Ham United, with an annual revenue of €87 million. It is pointless to continue the discussion with someone who makes up things, in order to prove his case.

Now you are shamelessly making up things, and to be honest, I have no intention of wasting any more time on someone who does that.

http://www.deloitte.com/assets/Dcom-UnitedKingdom/Local%20Assets/Documents/Industries/Sports%20Business%20Group/UK_SBG_DFML2011.pdf

The list you are using is outdated, as it's about the 2009/2010 season. Ajax had a revenue of 97 million euros in the 2010/2011 season, to be exact. So don't accuse me of making up things just because you are not fully informed and can't read. See where I said last season? I'd say 2010/2011 is last season, not 2009/2010. You're trying a bit too hard to discredit me, it seems.

So don't accuse me of making up things just because you are not fully informed and can't read. See where I said last season? I'd say 2010/2011 is last season, not 2009/2010.

Ouch. 

Exactly. That document mentions the 30 highest earning clubs in Europe last season, and Ajax (or any other Eredivisie club) is not on that list. The 30th club on that list is West Ham United, with an annual revenue of €87 million. It is pointless to continue the discussion with someone who makes up things, in order to prove his case.

Laughable.

You finally quote me when i purposely throw in a general statement yet when i ask you where the money is coming from you hide.

Just as petty hiding from answering a question as you are accusing BIer of making things up.

The list you are using is outdated, as it's about the 2009/2010 season. Ajax had a revenue of 97 million euros in the 2010/2011 season, to be exact. So don't accuse me of making up things just because you are not fully informed and can't read. See where I said last season? I'd say 2010/2011 is last season, not 2009/2010. You're trying a bit too hard to discredit me, it seems.

You continue to shamefully make up things. The numbers for the 2010/11 season are not submitted to the authorities yet, and they won't be submitted, until the 2011 fiscal year is over. Even the Financial Director of Ajax don't have the numbers you claim to have. Than again, you have already claimed that you know more about Ajax than Michael van Praag, so I am not really surprised by the lies you are telling here.