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      Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.

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      Adryan
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #207: Mar 25, 2012 05:34:11 am
      Yeah, regardless to what Xabi Alonso brought on the pitch, I think the inconsistent play is a big problem. I understand a loss to the likes of City or United. But to lose out to a team in relegation, this far into the season is unacceptable. I think the majority of my posts show that I am fairly optimistic about this club and do realize were not a Championship club, but the players really need to get it together and start playing as a team. I dont see leadership on the pitch. I dont like it.

      Maybe I'm spoiled from the success we have had in the past, but I see things that are not customary from Liverpool Football.
      I cant explain it, its just little mannerisms I see from the players. Its not something I have come to see from someone wearing the Liverpool crest. Its sh*t I expect from United or watching La Liga. I dont know, maybe its me but I just dont think some of the players actually realize where or who they play for. I'm disappointed. I like to think we have a bit more class and honor than other clubs. Its why I love this team and organization. Trust me Its not easy when you live a continent away and 6 hours behind and try to watch every match live from some server in China which is constantly buffering and its 7:00 am. 


      I understand what you mean. One thing I can't exactly get my head around is, we've dropped points to four of the bottom five teams (Losing to QPR, Wigan, Bolton and drawing with Blackburn) - that's a massive 10 points which would have made our season a whole lot different. We would be sitting in 5th place now and couple that with some games we deserved to have won against United, City, Norwich, Swansea or whatever, we could easily be sitting 3rd.

      Okay, it's easy to say our players are not good enough, not hungry enough to fight or whatever when we lose ... but one simple fact IMO is ... yeah, they may be 'average' but how can they be much more worse than the players sides like QPR, Wigan, Sunderland or whoever put out?!

      I mean, maybe when we compare them to the players City or United have, it's probably easy to notice the difference but our players are way more average than average sides. It is just wrong when I feel players like Sebastian Larsson (quite like him actually) and Clint Dempsey are world class.
      Del Boca Vista
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #208: Mar 25, 2012 05:49:58 am
      I like Seb Larsson too and he probably would be considered a much better player if he moved to a bigger club when they got relegated, but then again Sunderland are doing pretty well and have competed with the best, so have the likes of Newcastle and Everton and unfortunately us and all these teams are around the same position. But I think the plan all season was to be around this level. I mean obviously we set the bar very high and the supporters set it even higher but our starting XI can compete with the best - the rest we are rebuilding and it hasn't gone as well as we've hoped. still KK clearly deserves more time and if we win the double we'll qualify for group stages next year which is a great effort. onwards and upwards I say. we'll have to finish this season off strongly though and shake the team up a bit.
      YANK_LFC_FAN
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #209: Mar 25, 2012 05:03:47 pm
      I understand what you mean. One thing I can't exactly get my head around is, we've dropped points to four of the bottom five teams (Losing to QPR, Wigan, Bolton and drawing with Blackburn) - that's a massive 10 points which would have made our season a whole lot different. We would be sitting in 5th place now and couple that with some games we deserved to have won against United, City, Norwich, Swansea or whatever, we could easily be sitting 3rd.

      Okay, it's easy to say our players are not good enough, not hungry enough to fight or whatever when we lose ... but one simple fact IMO is ... yeah, they may be 'average' but how can they be much more worse than the players sides like QPR, Wigan, Sunderland or whoever put out?!

      I mean, maybe when we compare them to the players City or United have, it's probably easy to notice the difference but our players are way more average than average sides. It is just wrong when I feel players like Sebastian Larsson (quite like him actually) and Clint Dempsey are world class.
      That all goes towards the inconsistent play. When Gerrard came out and fired up the team and himself before the Everton match, they played great and Gerrard got a hat trick. But since then we haven't heard anything about taking control or playing to win.  We know that when it comes down to it and they get fired up and challenge themselves they play great.  But that doesnt happen.

      I think they get complacent when the play the lower tier teams, almost getting cocky like they deserve to win just because their "Liverpool" but they're not that good and they need to take the same energy they show against City and United and Everton and put it into every single match. They need to wake up and realize they cant just lay down and take it easy because its a relegation team.

      In all fairness, I did give this season a rebuild season. I didnt expect a title. But I did expect more than what we have right now. I think the Carling Cup was a much needed spark which just went nowhere. They really should of used that energy and ride it into the rest of the season.  I hope in the off season they take a look at what they have, trim the fat and not try and throw money at it. They need to really take stock and spend some money wisely, maybe get rid of the players who are not performing and collecting big checks.
      red_squirrel
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #210: Mar 25, 2012 09:16:51 pm
      Not sure if this has been posted anywhere (searched and didn't see it) but some (not all) relevant points from Paul Tomkins.

      http://tomkinstimes.com/2012/03/in-depth-why-are-liverpool-struggling/

      With Liverpool’s season proving to be an archetypal rollercoaster ride – ups, downs, adrenaline and nausea – I will now try and make sense of some of the key issues.

      First off, it goes without saying that Liverpool should be beating Wigan at home – but you will always get a few freak results. It was the first terrible home performance under Dalglish, and after lots of ‘unjust’ draws at Anfield, and the ill-deserved defeat to Arsenal, there was no arguing that Wigan deserved the points.

      Despite Wigan’s woes, they knew little was expected of them. By contrast, after the QPR game, there was a lot of pressure on Liverpool, not least to ‘be Liverpool’. While I don’t find Dalglish’s excuse of tiredness particularly plausible in this instance (though both QPR and Wigan had free weeks ahead of facing the Reds, who had a far more packed schedule), a club like Liverpool – with massive expectations but not quite the money to deal with them – needs its best players. When fit this season, Lucas, Agger, Johnson and Bellamy have been in that category, while Kelly’s additional absence left a rookie at right-back.

      Since Agger’s rib injury, goals have been leaking left, right and centre. Lucas is the only top-quality midfield shielder the club possesses. Bellamy was scoring goals, and Johnson, who defends better than given credit for, adds another dimension going forward. Some of the understudies are not good enough, but then again, the aforementioned four are amongst Liverpool’s best seven or eight players.

      Comparisons

      The constant comparisons saying that Dalglish’s record is no better than Hodgson’s are incorrect, and miss the point. Last week, Gabriele Marcotti had noted that Dalglish had the best start of any Liverpool manager since Roy Evans in terms of ‘points’ won (including cups).

      While Hodgson’s win percentage was boosted by victories against European minnows in qualifying rounds (and also, like Dalglish, faced one easy domestic cup game: Northampton and Exeter respectively), he never once, in 20 league games, had Liverpool looking like a top side that could go places. Victory at Anfield against Chelsea was pleasing, but a case of hanging on like a relegation-threatened side withstanding a pummelling. Overall, too much long-ball stuff was played, and there was no sense of optimism.

      The players were bored by his training methods (which are suited to organising limited sides, to great effect), and he said things like “I hope we don’t get beaten too heavily” on the eve of his first pre-season friendly, against Al Hilal, and by the time of his second league match, his ambition when going to Manchester City was “to not lose 6-0”. A 2-0 defeat at Everton was bizarrely as his team’s best performance. He let Alex Ferguson walk all over him over two separate issues with Fernando Torres, told lies about Rafa Benítez, and seemed more interested in using the job as a stepping stone to becoming England manager.

      This, to me, is what lost him the support of fans who were never excited by his appointment, but prepared to give him a go. He soon started insulting the fans, and in so doing, signed his own dismissal papers.

      Crucially, with Hodgson, that was all we had to go on. He had nothing in the bank. There was no great start to refer back to, in the way that the Reds’ form under Dalglish last season was worthy of a third-place finish. (Even if it was just the spring of the arrival of a new manager, there wasn’t even a ‘dead cat bounce’ under Hodgson.)

      Liverpool’s current dreadful run of five defeats in six league games coincides with the winning of a trophy and reaching another semi-final, and so, irrespective of what Kenny did 25 years ago, he has already put some credit in his bank. That won’t last forever, and of course there are some valid concerns, but it’s getting to the point where any kind of failure is met with calls for a sacking. This is not Chelsea.

      And bad runs happen; even to good teams. Just a month-or-so ago I was getting sick of hearing how Spurs were actually the best side in the league this season, and Harry Redknapp was an absolute genius. Since then, they’ve won just two points from 15, and are in danger of letting a supposed title-challenge turn into a return to Europa League football. Still, they’re in the driving seat for 4th place, and also have a semi-final to play. Are they suddenly a rubbish team?

      Meanwhile, Arsenal (carrying a few injuries) were quite dreadful earlier in the season, but currently look like the best team around. Arsenal did well to stand by Arsene Wenger, even if some of the fans were getting twitchy. It would have been nice had Purslow and co. done the same with Rafa in 2010, but they didn’t, and now it’s only fair to give Kenny time to give it his best shot.

      Holistic

      Unless you are an elite side, you can probably only win so many games in a season. There is only so much effort that can be put in, and you will always get flat performances and off days. And this season, Liverpool have had an above-average return in the cups (mostly against Premier League sides) and a below-average return in the league. The squad, and the sides fielded, have not been at the level to do consistently well in both.

      Swap the cup and league results in specific fixtures and things would look very different. City at home (drawn) and away (lost), United at home (drawn), Chelsea away (won), and Stoke home (drawn) and away (lost) would suddenly become: City at home (won) and away (drawn), United at home (won), Chelsea away (won), and Stoke home (won) and away (won). That would leave the Reds a fairly incredible 10 points better off in the league; but still not in the top four, and with no chance of a trophy.

      It’s easy to say that these teams may have not been trying as hard in the cup games (though all fielded strong teams), and of course, cause and effect from changing one result would mean subsequent results won’t necessarily have remained the same.

      But the crux is this: Liverpool played at least as well, if not better, against these teams in the league matches when dropping points than they did when beating them in the cup. In particular, Stoke away, City at home and United at home were games where the Reds played better in the league, but didn’t take their chances. It can start to feel fairly arbitrary why a side takes its chances one day and not another. Why did Liverpool play worse in those cup games but win?

      In the bigger picture, my belief is that winning cups can lead to league improvement the following season, even if it’s not guaranteed. At the same time, too many cup games in a single season can harm league form.

      In 1997, Middlesbrough had a lot of good players, and reached both domestic cup finals. Do bad teams do that? – one, perhaps, but two? They were, at the very least, a top half of the table side on paper, with Ravanelli, Emerson and Juninho in the XI. But they were relegated. Had they got those wins in the league instead, they’d have been safe.

      Sheffield Wednesday lost both 1993 cup finals to Arsenal. The Gunners won a European trophy the year after, and the domestic double in question came just two years after their most recent league title. Their league position that season when winning the two domestic cups? Tenth. (Three places below Wednesday.)

      Liverpool won the FA Cup, League Cup and Uefa Cup in 2001. At the time, coming third in the league (with 69 points) seemed a big deal, but the following season the Reds had no such cup fortune, but finished 2nd with 80 points. It’s not inconceivable to think that the side could have reached 80 points a year earlier had its efforts been focused on the league, but when there’s a bigger sense of excitement arising from the cup games, more emotional energy seems to go into it.

      But while cup games can harm your side’s health, it’s difficult for a manager to eschew them and focus purely on the league. This is particularly true of managers under pressure, and that usually means a newly appointed boss trying to make a mark, and those who have gone a while without silverware.

      There’s also the issue of the Carling Cup being in February. Does a sense of winning something with three months left cause a slackening in intensity in other competitions where the rewards aren’t as easily attainable? Spurs in 2008 and Birmingham last season both crashed badly after the win, while Arsenal self-combusted after losing last year’s final. You can’t really coast after winning the FA Cup, as it’s the end of the season.

      Inheritance

      It’s only fair to note Kenny’s starting point.

      While I believe Rafa BenĂ­tez left a fairly strong squad in 2010, it was not  his best; the money-grabbing of Gillett and Hicks had helped see to that, particularly when promising the Spaniard the money from the sale of Robbie Keane to reinvest (on Stevan Jovetić), before withdrawing it to leave the side a striker short.

      Roy Hodgson then took that collection of players, and, with a fairly neutral net-spend, succeeded in making it considerably worse.

      By the time Kenny Dalglish took over, the following players were in the first team squad: Paul Konchesky, Christian Poulsen, Milan Jovanovic, Danny Wilson, Jonjo Shelvey, Joe Cole, David Ngog, Soto Kyrgiakos, Ryan Babel, Daniel Ayala, Danny Pacheco and Jay Spearing. That’s eleven players you wouldn’t want to rely on, either because they were too young, or just not good enough.

      On top of this, Hodgson had brought back the increasingly injury-prone Fabio Aurelio, who had excelled under Benítez when available, but who was released in 2010 because of fitness issues. That makes a dozen players who weren’t of much use, without talking about reserve goalkeepers.

      As teenagers, Shelvey, Wilson and Ayala had a lot of potential, but were young and raw. They had a handful of starts between them. I was sad to see Ayala sold, but Sebastian Coates looks an even better prospect.

      Pacheco had ability, but wasn’t quite good enough. Spearing had been improving, but slowly. Jovanovic suffered the fate of the man who signed him (Benítez) being sacked before he even arrived, and as with Djibril Cissé six years earlier, it may have contributed to a poor start (which never got better).

      For all his talent, Joe Cole looked consistently unfit and peripheral, and did so on £100,000 a week. And at £1.5m each, Kyrgiakos and Ngog were never going to be more than hit-and-miss squad players; but bargains all the same when compared with Poulsen and Konchesky, who cost roughly £5m each – ludicrous fees for thirtysomethings. Ryan Babel was a potential match-winner, but never quite worked out how to use his talent effectively, beyond the occasional inspired cameo.

      Raul Meireles was Hodgson’s one successful, albeit unspectacular signing. Before Hodgson got going, Benayoun and Mascherano – two of the stars of the 86-point finish in 2008/09 – had departed, and as such, I’d come to expect roughly 6th place from the Englishman, given that 7th in 2009/10 was seen by many as an unacceptable underachievement. But when Dalglish turned up, the Reds were 12th and losing games.

      Emiliano Insua – now doing well at Sporting Lisbon – and Alberto Aquilani – now at the mighty Milan – were already out on loan. With Benítez edged out of the door, the young Insua had been earmarked as not good enough by Christian ‘above his station’ Purslow, as had Lucas Leiva. (Yes, Liverpool’s ‘player of the season-in-waiting’ was being hawked around by Purslow, with Hodgson equally ludicrous in his desire to be rid of Agger.) By the time Dalglish took over, Insua and Aquilani had been ostracised. They might not have been perfect, but they were better than Konchesky and Poulsen.

      The only players Dalglish could definitely build a team around were Reina, Johnson, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas, Gerrard, Kuyt (for a couple of years) and Torres; seven Benítez signings, plus the club’s best-ever Academy graduate.

      Also in the squad, Carragher was beyond his peak, but could obviously still play a part, and in the wings, Maxi was a quality player, with a year or two left at the top, who had yet to shine. Raul Meireles was not always convincing in the first XI, but due to injuries, ended up deputising for several players (although had yet to score when Dalglish turned up). And Martin Kelly, blooded by BenĂ­tez towards the end of his tenure, was a promising prospect, although like Shelvey and Ayala, very raw.

      But then Torres, after three goals in five games under Dalglish after just nine in 20 under Hodgson, made it clear he wanted to leave, dating back to broken promises by the club back in 2010. And Gerrard soon suffered serious injury. This season, Lucas followed suit. Hodgson, in getting Liverpool to a lowly 12th, may have not spent much money, but he did have Torres, Lucas and Gerrard: the heart of the team. He also had Carragher, who was 18 months younger than now.

      Signings

      “Think you’re doing a good job, Kenny? You have spent £113.3m and you’re 28 points behind United” ran the Daily Mail headline last week.

      Gross spend in a short space of time is almost irrelevant because it ignores what you lose. What if you spend £100m, but lose £200m-worth of players? Should you be £100m better? Of course not – you should be £100m worse.

      Net spend is a good guide, but even that’s affected by what you inherit (you will have a low net spend if you inherit an excess of saleable assets; if you don’t, you won’t). The overall cost of the squad when adjusted for inflation (and the XI that can be selected), along with the size of the wage bill, is what matters most.

      Liverpool’s net spend under Dalglish is roughly £40m; so, a third of the Daily Mail’s gross(ly exaggerated) headline. That’s not a huge amount given the work required, and in any rebuilding process, mistakes will be made.

      My long-held theory is that most managers will be lucky to get 50% of their signings spot-on. This is partly because, in a squad of 24+, you can’t have everyone you purchase in the side at once; and as such, some will seem like flops. And also, the fact of the matter is that, due to injuries, form, team understanding/wavelength, language and settling-in issues, and sometimes the need to adapt to a new role, new signings can often struggle to replicate the form that led to the move in the first place. Add the pressure of a club like Liverpool, and it can be tough for some to cope.

      I’m never comfortable with the idea that five out, five in will mean improvement. If you lose a world-class player, like a Torres, the odds of finding a suitable replacement are not great.

      Luis Suarez, for all the profligacy and controversy, is a player whose all-round game has made up for the loss of Torres; it’s just a shame the two were never paired together. Perhaps the Uruguayan doesn’t have the right strike partner, and the need has appeared to be for a dead-eye finisher to accompany him; but there’s no doubt he’s been a gem of a signing.

      Now both aged 21, Jordan Henderson and Sebastian Coates cannot be definitively judged; they are both full internationals, but ones who need time. My hunch is that both will prove shrewd acquisitions, based on what they’ve done right; experience will help eradicate what they get wrong.

      Henderson is unlikely to be a right-sided midfielder for the rest of his career, and playing there is not helping him win over the fans – but presumably, it’s designed to help the team (and will provide a stern life lesson). Hearing fans cheering his withdrawal yesterday was not nice; reminiscent of the crap that Lucas used to receive. (And even poor old Konchesky didn’t deserve the bird.)

      Jose Enrique was superb for several months. Super-quick, and eager to go forward, he looked a bargain at ÂŁ6m. However, his recent form has been iffy,  with his reluctance to use his right foot, and his interest in barging rather than tackling, causing him problems. His final ball isn’t great, but generally, at the other end of the pitch, he is rarely beaten by his opponent. That said, another problem is that he holds onto the ball too long, twisting and turning without getting his head up. He’s still a very good signing, but needs to prove that the good start was his natural level, and that this is more of a blip.

      Craig Bellamy is another very good signing. Despite being 32 with dodgy knees, he recently broke the record for most high-intensity sprints in a game, and has scored some vital goals. A great bit of business, even if not someone for the long-term.

      Charlie Adam has also had some good moments, but for all his passing ability, he seems to make too many silly mistakes – be it daft tackles or brainless concessions of possession. Despite all that, he’s not a bad player. He’s a good player who makes too many bad decisions. Perhaps he’s been trying too hard, but if you lack pace in the centre of the park, you need to be able to play like Xabi Alonso to compensate. At times Adam looks capable of matching the longer passes, but he doesn’t have the same footballing brain. (Few do.) It would be nice to see him succeed, but I won’t hold my breath.

      Stewart Downing started the season brilliantly, but his shots were hitting the woodwork and his teasing crosses often inexplicably missed or misused by the strikers. He then had a pretty poor few months. But of late, he’s looking sharp and, crucially, full of confidence. He was man of the match against Cardiff, and while it’s “only Championship-level opposition”, the same applied to the rest of the Liverpool side, and many froze with the pressure of their first final and the expectation that the Reds should walk the match.

      My main gripe with Downing was his willingness to shoot time and again from 30 yards, but never pull the trigger inside the box. But against Stoke and QPR, he cut inside from the right with shots that led to goals. He may never be spectacular, and he was overpriced in transfer fee (if not wages), but there’s hope yet.

      Which brings us onto  …

      Andy Carroll

      As noted by people on Twitter, Liverpool’s results in the last seven Carroll starts (after Bolton): WWDWDWW; but the last seven without Carroll starting (after Oldham): DDLLLLL. That’s quite some contrast.

      TTT’s senior data analyst Dan Kennett posted some great stats on the eve of the Wigan game in the site’s comments section (which is worth the subscription fee on its own!).

      (Even yesterday’s game, though not included, saw Liverpool do better with him on the pitch – ‘drawing’ 1-1 – than the 1-0 ‘defeat’ of the first half.)

          Liverpool (All Comps): P40 Win%=50, Points Per Game = 1.78

          Carroll starts: P22 W13 D5 L4, Win%=59, Points Per Game = 2.00
          Carroll doesn’t start: P18 W7 D6 L5, Win%=39, Points Per Game = 1.50

          In terms of ‘difficulty’:

          Carroll starts vs Teams higher in PL than Liverpool (All Comps v Arsenal, Chelsea, City, United, Newcastle, Spurs)
          P8 W5 D1 L2, Win%=63, Points Per Game = 2.00

          Carroll starts vs “the rest”
          P14 W8 D4 L2, Win%=57, Points Per Game = 2.00

          No Carroll start vs Teams higher
          P6 W1 D3 L2, Win%=17, Points Per Game = 1.00

          No Carroll start vs “the rest”
          P12 W6 D3 L3, Win%=50, Points Per Game = 1.75

          I think this is fascinating. Not only are the team’s results significantly better when Carroll plays, but the results with Carroll are exactly the same (2 points per game), whether versus “hard” or “easy” teams!

      (Dan has subsequently worked out these stats across Carroll’s entire time at Liverpool and posted them in the site’s debate section, and they remain impressive.)

      While Liverpool’s game can be less easy on the eye with Carroll in the side,  and the goals have not flowed for the no.9 as hoped, he’s certainly playing better of late; at least he was, until he started being left out.

      There are too many other factors to prove conclusively that playing Carroll will lead to better results, but it’s better to have non-scoring strikers who help win games (through other contributions) than to have someone banging in a goal a game in 2-1 defeats. Either way, it’s food for thought.

      Conclusions

      Even though ÂŁ40m (net) has been spent on transfers in 14 months, ÂŁ30m has been wiped off the annual wage bill. Liverpool are no longer a Champions League club, and have had to cut their cloth accordingly.

      The excellent commercial deals made this season – particularly the Warrior kit deal – suggest that the wage bill can now be safely increased and it not trouble Liverpool’s Financial Fair Play outlook; as well as making sure that a higher wage bill won’t cripple the club (a la Leeds United) if it remains out of the Champions League.

      The more time that passes, the brighter Liverpool’s future looks, providing Uefa stick to their guns, because the Reds are now run by sensible, intelligent owners whose long-term plan was built around such a scenario. Equally, without a massive stadium, and without Champions League income, the new commercial deals will only go so far. The good news is that clubs like Chelsea and Manchester City, who have been built on artificial wealth, will have to do more than make annual net spends of £100m+.

      Whether or not Kenny is definitely the man to take the club forward in the long-term is hard to say; but he’s done enough to deserve some time and patience. Equally, those responsible for buying players – and people tend to blame either Comolli or Dalglish when they go wrong, but the opposite person when they do well – need to find a couple of gems in the summer.

      None of the current first XI is dropping off a cliff next season. Gerrard and Kuyt are fading forces in their thirties, but far from finished. And Carragher is already a squad player.

      Providing Gerrard stays fit, and assuming that Craig Bellamy remains an important asset, the squad can get stronger simply by youngsters improving. Providing he isn’t heckled further into his shell, I’d expect Henderson to get better, and Shelvey could usurp Adam, while Coates could perhaps force Carragher further from the first team.

      The prodigious Raheem Sterling made the breakthrough yesterday, and looked right at home, despite still being 16 until just before Christmas. He has immense potential, and his pace can make him a threat, but has a lot to learn in terms of when to go it alone and when to pass, and will need some patience. Other good players wait in the wings from a youth system overhauled by Benítez in 2009, with Dalglish’s help.

      But on the surface, a finisher seems vital. Had Liverpool taken their chances earlier in the season, they wouldn’t be in this position; they would have some leeway. More of Dan Kennett’s excellent work shows that Liverpool’s clear cut chance conversion rate is 10% below the Premier League average, but that their opponents are bagging 10% above the average in games against them. As poor as Liverpool’s finishing has been, the opposition, as seen at QPR, are gobbling up an unusually high percentage of a limited number of chances. Can that continue?

      Liverpool, and in particular Suarez, hit the woodwork more than anyone else, but the player who used to do so most regularly was Robin Van Persie, whose aim has now improved. So it’s not necessarily a case of being a bad striker, but just adjusting your aim by a fraction (and in two recent games, Suarez has hit the post but someone has put in the rebound). If Suarez can get his head straight after the Evra debacle – and his recent scoring form suggests he’s getting there – he can definitely become a 20-goals-a-season striker, if not replicate his 50 in Holland.

      Then there’s the fact that Liverpool won the Carling Cup on penalties (albeit after a very hard run to the final), but in the Premier League have dropped more than five points – the highest in the division – due to missing their spot-kicks. Of course, the cup was won by Cardiff missing more, but despite missing their first two attempts, Liverpool’s success rate in that shootout was far better than it has been in league games. (See this excellent article for details of how costly it’s proven.)

      For all the concerns, I retain a sense of something good bubbling just under. A second trophy would make finishing between 6th and 10th largely irrelevant, other than for anything below 8th becoming worst finish by Liverpool in decades (although Dalglish saved Hodgson that probable ignominy).

      Getting back to defending set-pieces the way the Reds did for the first 10 months of Dalglish’s return would also help. Whatever system a manager chooses, the defending can get nervy when corners start leading to goals, and that in turn leads to more. (At the other end, Adam’s famed set-piece delivery disappeared once he got the yips: another example of the pressure players are put under causing them to wobble.)

      Get more intelligence into the defence – Agger and Johnson instantly do that – and into the midfield – Lucas instantly does that – and suddenly the side looks stronger. [Addition from Dan: In the 20 PL games Agger has played 90mins, Liverpool's opponents have created 18 clear chances (39% conversion). In the other 10 it's 19 at 58%.]

      Sort out the issue of right-midfield, with Henderson largely lost there, and with Kuyt not as consistent as before, and that will help. More goals from midfield – like those scored by Gerrard against Everton – and that too will make a huge difference.

      Finally, find a striker who only needs to score goals at the average rate, and convert penalties accordingly, and we can easily be talking about 20 more points in the season. Get it wrong, however, and we may be in for another bumpy ride.
      KopiteLuke
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #211: Mar 25, 2012 11:23:05 pm
      Very good article and I'd tend to agree with a lot that's said within it.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #212: Aug 05, 2012 09:53:53 am
      BUMP *

      So how long do we reckon it will take this season's signing to gel?  ;D

      Seriously tho'; new style of play, new philosophy, new boss, new coaching techniques and new players (?): will it take longer than last season? And...

      If so; how soon should do you reckon we be getting any new players in (given the league campaign starts in less that two weeks)?
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #213: Aug 05, 2012 10:13:11 am
      BUMP *

      So how long do we reckon it will take this season's signing to gel?  ;D

      Seriously tho'; new style of play, new philosophy, new boss, new coaching techniques and new players (?): will it take longer than last season? And...

      If so; how soon should do you reckon we be getting any new players in (given the league campaign starts in less that two weeks)?


      I think how long it takes depends on the quality and style of player we get in.

      I think we should be seeing some real progress in the transfer market this week or come this time next week I'll be getting worried. Inwards and not outwards aswell.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #214: Aug 05, 2012 10:16:08 am
      I'd say were exacty where we were last season mate, the manager and the current team and any new additions needs time to gel and get used to the tactics, system and philosophies Rodgers is trying to instill.

      I was disappointed not only in the fans short sightedness but the owners too when they took the decision to. Call for Kennys head - sack him.

      Last season wasn't an umitigated disaster like it was under Hodgson and although we finished in a worse position than the previous season, the signs were encouraging in many of the games we played and to me it showed when the side was confident and consistent,  we could beat any one in the league on our day.

      I'd have expected Kenny to identify where he needed to strengthen and add the players that he felt we required and with the experience of last season and a year under their belts, I think we'd have gone on to have a better season than last.

      But that's all by the by now.

      I'll stand firm that Rodgers and our current crop and any additions need at least two seasons, a year to gel, get used to. How Rodgers wants them to play etc and then as I thought with Kenny, we'll reap our rewards the following season.

      I'm expecting another roller coaster season, there will be games where we look like Barcelona and there will be games where we look like Stoke City with a raging hang over, but that will be part and parcel of yet more upheaval.

      As I said the other day, since the bootroom was dispanded, when ever we have changed managers, an Inconsistent first season has followed, that's because a new manager comes with his own ideas and players he wants to lose and add to the squad, whereas in the bootroom era is it was a seamless switch as every one was on the same page.
      stuey
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #215: Aug 05, 2012 10:23:04 am
      BUMP *

      So how long do we reckon it will take this season's signing to gel?  ;D

      Seriously tho'; new style of play, new philosophy, new boss, new coaching techniques and new players (?): will it take longer than last season? And...

      If so; how soon should do you reckon we be getting any new players in (given the league campaign starts in less that two weeks)?
      Know what you're saying mouse, reading the rumours and the players acquired by manUre and Chelsea doesn't fill you with confidence.
      In spite of the deafening silence in the transfer market and BR's words of reassurance, the conviction that the manager will have to walk on water will not go away.
      FSG's conduct, or lack of, only provokes uncertainty and doubt in the supporters while it is to be hoped that sentiment does not extend to the dressing room. 
      bad boy bubby
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      • @KaiserQueef
      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #216: Aug 05, 2012 10:27:19 am
      I think we should be seeing some real progress in the transfer market this week or come this time next week I'll be getting worried. Inwards and not outwards aswell.

      Fair enough wahs. I guess you're right in that 'quality' players can play any system and players familiar with it will take less time to assimilate but the fact will remain that they'll be playing with 'strangers'. I think that alone will mean 'teething problems' - maybe more so than last season.


      Scotia
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #217: Aug 05, 2012 11:02:49 am
      It will take them time to gel and achieve consistency so I hope we and the owners are patient. Hopefully Thursday is a portent of things to come and Downing etc will start to look more assertive and confident.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #218: Aug 05, 2012 11:05:10 am
      that's because a new manager comes with his own ideas and players he wants to lose and add to the squad

      Can't argue with that mate but in such instances it's important to get the group together as soon as possible and as Stuey hints at; FSG have to give him a fighting chance. If Brendan has identified the players who'll make it 'work' and there are deals to be done then do them quick.

      Kibbling about and arguing the toss to save ÂŁ1m or ÂŁ2m here and there may look like good business but if it comes at the cost of the team not being ready and (maybe) dropping points early doors then: I'm sorry but (as a fan of Liverpool Football Club) I can't buy into it.  :-\

      Just to be clear; I'm not looking FSG to go out and buy 4 X ÂŁ25m players - just cough up a few extra mil' for the (lets' be honest) modestly priced players Brendan wants.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #219: Aug 05, 2012 11:42:03 am
      Kibbling about and arguing the toss to save ÂŁ1m or ÂŁ2m here and there may look like good business but if it comes at the cost of the team not being ready and (maybe) dropping points early doors then: I'm sorry but (as a fan of Liverpool Football Club) I can't buy into it.


      The problem is though mate if true our two main targets are Allen and Ramirez, both have been involved with the olympics, so they wouldn't really have joined up with the squad and got any games under their belts.

      Maybe other players we have been targeting have been involved at the olympics, until the deals are tied up we don't really know.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #220: Aug 05, 2012 12:12:43 pm
      The problem is though mate if true our two main targets are Allen and Ramirez, both have been involved with the olympics, so they wouldn't really have joined up with the squad and got any games under their belts.

      Let's take that as read; i.e. those two are targets. The problems are i) a good Olympics may have seen their value increase or ii) other clubs coming in for them and offering a bigger fee or wages. A risky strategy and... what about the rest? Surely we need more attacking options; surely our transfers aren't going to stop at two midfield players involved in the Olympics?

      When I wrote "it's important to get the group together as soon as possible" I was actually quoting Brendan. I believe it is relevant in the context of this thread. That is; if players need time to gel and Brendan would like to get the group together soon it surely follows that (if he's to be given as much help as possible); deals need to be done quicker.


      shabbadoo
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #221: Aug 05, 2012 12:14:40 pm
      Am I wrong in wanting the team to hit the ground running? Gets tiresome waiting for the team to gel,waited 20 odd years now with the same excuses that we are a team in progress.
      bad boy bubby
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #222: Aug 05, 2012 12:27:46 pm
      Am I wrong in wanting the team to hit the ground running? Gets tiresome waiting for the team to gel,waited 20 odd years now with the same excuses that we are a team in progress.

      ... But like it or not; agree with the reasons behind it or not: we are (yet again) a work in progress Shabs. However, like you, I'd like to see us 'hit the ground running' with all players in situ before season's kick-off.
      RedLFCBlood
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #223: Aug 05, 2012 12:42:13 pm
      When I wrote "it's important to get the group together as soon as possible" I was actually quoting Brendan. I believe it is relevant in the context of this thread. That is; if players need time to gel and Brendan would like to get the group together soon it surely follows that (if he's to be given as much help as possible); deals need to be done quicker.


      We ask for that every season mate, it never happens, its not like its the first time its ever happened.
      The Kopite91
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #224: Aug 05, 2012 01:05:12 pm
      Q. Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.[/i][/u]

      I don't know if this is a simple yes or no answer. There are plenty of factors to be considered as most people have been discussing.

      Personally I think it will take longer. This isn't Brendans squad. This time last year it wasn't exactly Kenny's squad either, but we rushed into the transfer market and grabbed a number of players, and take Comolli out of the equation, they are Kenny players. This year we are much more cautious of the transfer market and we have Borini, the sole Rodgers player in our squad.

      The point I am getting at is that over the next 4 transfer windows or so (this one included) we are going to see Rodgers add to the squad, slowly but surely. And until we have a squad of players the are predominantly tuned to Rodgers style then we are always going to be waiting for them to gel...
      billythered
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #225: Aug 05, 2012 01:48:48 pm
      To answer the thread title, most definately, for most if not all teams having a new manager, new style of play etc etc, does take time to gel and learn, some take longer than others depending on the type of player bought and experiences they have,

      in our case i don't think it will take to long, we already have the ingredients and the recipe, all we need are 2-3 more components to help out in the weaker areas, as for hitting the ground running, that will be extremely difficult this season because of the Euro's and the Olympics, so it's not a normal pre-season,

      Brendan will only have had his full compliment of players for 2 weeks max before the start but it would have helped sort out who the shining lights are, and who could feature in his final 25,

      we have a pretty tough start so i'm not expecting us to be top of the league by the end of Sept, but what i do expect is fully committed players giving their all and we supporters talking about how well we're playing and getting very excitable,

      i believe we will surprise many this season,in fact i would go as far and say we are the dark horses,no one will expect us to be challenging come the turn of the year but i reckon we will be right up there, and as the  season progresses we will get better and better,

      if rumours are true about our potential targets then we could have this as a line-up...               
                                           Pepe
                        Glen      Skrtle   Agger   Enrique
                                           Lucas
                              Gerrard               Allen
                            Suarez                    Ramirez
                                           Borini

        Bench; Doni, Carra, Hendo, Shelvey, Sterling, Bellers, Carroll

      don't know about you but that is a formidable looking side with solid back-up, there are many permutations of course but what i like is the fact that we will be playing a attacking attractive football that allows minimal disruption when it comes to subs,

      FSG have there own man in now, they should allow him the full term of his contract unless things were to go completely tits, can't see that happening to be fair,anyhoo i suppose results, league position and media handling will  all be part and parcel of how FSG percieve Brendan's progress, and thus far he has been top dog, but it's on the pitch where we all want to see progress and where ultimately where the future lies.

                           IBWT             YNWA               
      waltonl4
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #226: Aug 05, 2012 05:06:55 pm
      there should be 8 or 9 from last seasons first team so they should at least know each other even if the tactics and style may have changed a bit.
      Kenny did have us passing and moving so it shouldn't need a year for them to understand new formations.
      Its down to quality really have we got sufficient quality in the squad?
      what-a-hit-son
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #227: Aug 05, 2012 05:23:31 pm
      A season to gel?

      Players getting used to each other fair enough, players settling in to new areas and lifestyles yeah okay, but adapting and getting used to new systems I'm not too sure of.

      These are professional footballers who have been selected to be part of Liverpool Football Club because they are talented. They will train several times a week where Rodgers will be drumming into them the ins and the outs of how to implement this system on the pitch whilst also having them practice different situations and possible occurences aswell as the basics.

      Day in, day out they'll practice amongst each other and there will be plenty of Europa and Carling Cup games aswell as the Premier League games to get used to playing the system against a high level of competition.

      Not saying we should be Barcelona come Christmas time but I'd expect most players to be able to play within the system to a decent standard, no?

      Before people jump on me I'm not saying I want it all and I want it now, I'm just wondering how long the excuse of the players are 'gelling to the system' can be realistically used for.
      arvindram
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #228: Aug 06, 2012 12:16:05 am
      Yes, and fire fans from LFC rather than the manager. We've already tried that for 20 years and it DOES NOT WORK!!!!!!!
      federer
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      Re: Do we have to give this team a season to gel to bear the fruits of our labour.
      Reply #229: Aug 06, 2012 02:51:47 am
      I think this post from the first page, written last November, sums up last season.

      the whole reason we bought premiership proven is because they would settle quickly. Im not sure if this team is ever going to be good enough to compete for the top 4 never mind the league. Take Suarez out and we are very ordinary. Did we give meireles a season. I think personally the problem is we bought some very ordinary players

      This whole business about "needing time to gel" doesn't mean anything, in my opinion.  If you put class players with other class players, they won't need long to gel.  If you put mediocre players with other mediocre players, no amount of time is going to turn them into world-beaters.  They have a ceiling.  We bought Downing, Adam, Hendo and Carroll.  It's not about "time to gel" with them.  They didn't look like they had even an ounce more intuition at the end of last season than at the beginning.  If you mix two cups of crap, one cup of feces, and three teaspoons of sh*te in the oven, you won't end up with filet mignon when it's done.

      And yet, look at Stevie and Suarez.  The first time they played together, it looked like they had been together for years.  Why?  because class understands class.  They can tell when people are making runs off the ball, they can anticipate and read each other's movement, etc.  Suarez and Gerrard gelled right away.  So did Suarez and Bellamy.  Even Suarez and Maxi had an understanding.  And yet time and time again, Suarez threw his hands up when Henderson couldn't read a pass, when Downing didn't run to a ball, when Carroll didn't follow up on a 1-2, etc etc.  Because Suarez is on a different level.

      Even look at pre-season.  Pacheco and Enrique have never played together.  And yet in the first match of pre-season, they looked dangerous out on that left wing.  They were connecting on runs, making no-look passes, etc.  Not saying they're going to take us to the CL final, but they get each other a hell of a lot more than Downing and Enrique do.

      If we buy players with class and composure they won't need time to gel.  They should hit the ground running.

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