Nowhere to hide - the harsh reality

I've stayed away from the forum for a few days. I was as disappointed as I've been in many a year in us against Bolton, and I just couldn't stomach discussing it. It's not that I don't think some posters are justified in their reactions, I just didn't want to hear it to be totally honest. Now I've had a chance to calm down though, I thought I'd try and get a bit of a level headed discussion going about where we are, and we need to be. How successful have we been, where do we go from here? I'd ask posters to try and leave pre-ordained agendas at the door here, and for once lets honestly assess things .

Firstly the signings under Kenny.

Clearly Suarez and Enrique are both unqualified successes, I don't think anyone would argue with that. Then though we have Carroll, Downing, Henderson and Adam. They represent an outlay of 80 million quid give or take a mill or two here and there, and they have contributed very little. We can argue till we are blue in the face about whether or not they are good enough to pull on the shirt, and in fairness to them all of have had decent games, but ultimately the return so far isn't nearly good enough. All four in my eyes either need to improve significantly before the end of the season, or they must be considered questionable buys at best or poor at worst. Only Adam could hide behind the "ah well he was relatively cheap so he's only a squad player anyway" line, the rest were big money and as such we are entitled to expect some impact. Unfortunately the last three managers have made too many poor buys (although in fairness to Benitez he made some excellent ones at first) and it's costing us big time.

Now as far as the signings are concerned, it matters not a bag of chips if anybody said in advance they didn't think they'd work out before we bought them. The point is we have the players now, and Kenny has the job of making them work to somewhere near the best of their ability or moving them on. So what is the best of their ability?

Carroll: For me he has gone backwards and is continuing so to do. People saying "I always said he wouldn't be any good" may well have had a point, but surely nobody can dispute the player we are seeing now is a shadow of the one we bought. The one we bought was a beast of pent up aggression, bullying defenders and winning everything. IMHO Carroll needs to get back to that or f*ck off. He needs a rocket up his arsehole does the lad and no mistake. No more pats on the shoulder, he needs to want it more pure and simple. Yes we can supply him better, but good strikers are a pain in the @rse to play against regardless of service.

Downing: I'd give him a go centrally, a little like Martin O'Neill did with Milner. He needs a rocket up his jacksy n'all though, looks like he's going to church not going to play football. I'm surprised he gave his bird a right hander, not that I'd condone that obviously but I thought it would more likely be the other way around. He needs to get his backside into the box when it's off the other flank (like he did for Villa when he scored against us) and he needs to work harder when we haven't got it.

Henderson: Soft as sh!te. Needs to get his foot in, needs pinning up against a wall by his throat and asking if he really wants to make it or not. Bags of talent, but not good enough to be able to float through games like he thinks he can without getting his kit dirty. He's talented, but he's nowhere near so gifted as a Modric or a Silva, and BOTH of them put far more work in than he does. Another rocket up the @rsehole needed here. He ought to score regularly and cause goals to be scored regularly, as well as getting some important tackles in.

Adam: Started well but the own goal and missed penalty have destroyed him. Currently an absolute liability, and if he doesn't pull his finger out of his erse we should sell him at the end of the season and get our money back. 




The team as a whole:

Yes we need time to "gel", and yes Rome wasn't built in a day. Yes Kenny is the king, and yes we all love him. That doesn't mean though that there's a blank cheque of patience, a blindfold which makes people oblivious to sh!t like we saw the other night. Kenny either needs to get this lot playing, or f*ck them off and start again. It's a horrible thought, but lose our next two and we could win feck all again and finish 7th again. Having spashed the big cash, that would be a poor effort. I would certainly have called it if Benitez were in charge (I did when he steered us into 7th two seasons ago) and I called it when Hodgson did the same.

No more of this bullsh!t, lets have the same pride for the shirt as the fans have. That is the very least we demand.

I agree, but what upsets me is that these players are not the worst players (technically), they are simply not giving 100% every game. I also believe that these guys arent good enough to win a title, however this team as a whole is good enough to get into the top4, which is our target.

These players need a reality check and need to take a good long look in the mirror regarding their effort each game and remember who they are playing for.

The sesnisble level headed person in me says, overall the squad have done pretty well.

Had it not been for poor finishing and a little bit if luck we'd be sat higher in the table than what we are currently.

Granted some players have not performed to the level that we expected and deserve criticism.

But overall there is only two maybe three times at a push this season I feel the squad of players let us down.

Spurs, Swansea and Bolton, those aside I feel we deserved more than we got out of all teh games we've drawn/lost.

Now I'm going to go against the grain and some may not like it.

But over the majority of the games we have created enough the chances to win the games in question.

So for me over all the situation we are in comes down to players not taking their chances.

Now people will point to Downing, Henderson, Carroll, Adam, Kuyt and put the blame at their doors.

But you also need to take a look at Suarez.

Suarez is our forward along with Carroll and his conversion rate and goals tally have been piss poor.

Also his ban is not helping us at all.

Now Suarez should never have got into that confrontation with Evra and the ban is his own doing.

Now I don't believe Suarez is as guilty as presumed, but I also don't think he's as innocent as he claims to be.

If he was not refrencing to Evra's sking colour, why did he pinch his skin ?

So whilst some may seem easy targets, there is other people who deserve some criticism too.

We've not been helped by the absense of Lucas for sure, but Steven Gerrard and Charlie Adam in central midfield should have been good enough to stop Bolton playing through them, bearing in mind two goals ahainst us came from straight down the middle with neither Gerrard or Adam tracking their runners.

So heres where I'm at over all in the majority of games of the season collectivelly our squad has been pretty much ok, they have let us and themselves down on three occassions, individually then there have been players who've let themselves and us down in more than three games.

I still think if we can add some more quality this squad of players without the need to really get rid off anyone barring Carroll, I just don't think Carroll will ever adjust to the type of football Kenny wants to play.

The only Culls in the squad I would be really considering at this moment in time is getting rid of some of the older heads in the summer, Kuyt, Maxi, Bellamy & Aurelio and then also Carroll and replacing them with hopefully better players.

bigmick

Good post mate, sad but true. 

 

Carrol does not suit our so called style of play and that stands ou tlike  a sore thumb so who bought him and why?.Henderson is a waste of space out wide and has probably played more because of stevies injuries.
Adam needs Lucas alongside just as Xabi Alonso did him and Stevie just don't do it. Downing dosen't seem to understand what his role is and lacks confidence.
We seemed to have a settled back 4 and have a few options at full back and C/B but wide right and central midfield is a problem and as we now know without Luis up front we are quite static and easy to handle.
Having said that we have beaten some good teams away from home were over the last few years we have struggled so wtf is going on it has to be attitude.
Souness would not have let players hide as they did against Bolton and either would Jamie so we are a quiet team on the pitch at the moment it needs someone to take charge Stevie isn't a vocal Captain and if you look around other than Bellamy they also seem quiet TBH.
We need an Animal in the side to put some fire into people's bellies and show a bit of passion when its needed.

Players who have not been good enough this season:
Gerrard - Injured far too often
Carroll - lacks pace, and frankly everything at the moment
Kuyt - Has been poor all season
Downing - Does not seem to know how to attack anymore
Adam - Started OK, but has declined massively.

Players who have been ok this season:
Johnson - but a little inconsistent
Enrique - Class - but needs to hoof it sometimes rather than dribbling all the time
Agger - Injury free run for a while - was poor Saturday though.
Suarez - Needs to score more and keep his mouth shut.
Maxi - Has been ok when selected
Henderson - Looks decent, needs to improve still.
Coates - Will be a 1st choice in 1-2 seasons time.
Spearing - done well when selected
Carragher - No nonsense - speed lets him down.

Players who have shone this season:
Lucas - Such a cruel blow with the injury
Reina - Has saved us many a times.
Bellamy- My player of the season so far.

We are where we've been for a number of years, a squad brimming with decent players who feel they play for Liverpool therefore need to only turn up against certain sides and we'll win. I don't know if these players coming from smaller clubs just assume that because they're at the most successful club in England they've made it and no longer need to graft but that's what it looks like. I'm not gonna slag one or two players off because we win, lose and draw as a team.

Also, in the last couple of weeks I've been more impressed by Carroll than I have some of the others. Still needs work obviously but he scored against Oldham, put in a proper shift against City only to be dropped against Stoke and then against Bolton he played two of the best passes we made all game as well as the flick on for Bellamy's goal. Henderson still has something, unfortunately though he's no right winger and does look lost at times out there. Again though, I thought he was one of the brighter sparks against Bolton - constantly got back to cover for Johnson. Downing needs to recapture the form he showed at the start of the season as does Adam.

For me, the mistakes and the poor play in recent weeks has come from players who've been here for two or three seasons now. It's not the "new" players but they're the easy targets. Can't have a go at Kuyt cos he scored a hattrick against United and many other crucial goals. Can't have a go at Maxi cos he's played x amount of games for Argentina. Can't have a go at Johnson cos he's the best right back in the League. Can't have a go at Gerrard cos he's Stevie G. So the easy targets are the "new" players which is totally F***ing wrong.

We're a team, not 11 individuals but 11 players playing together. The team wins, the team loses, the team draws together.

One thing constantly said when Kenny returned as manager was how the club, and more importantly the fans, would unite. I don't think we have. If anything, we're split more than we ever have been. Under Hicks and Gillett, we were united in getting rid of them. Under Hodgson, we were united in knowing we weren't good enough - though some of us, myself included, did still try and support the manager. Under Kenny, we're not united because there's some who think Kenny isn't right for the job, their opinions split on players, there's some down right hatred for certain players, there is split opinions on the Suarez race incident, there's split opinions on the owners. There isn't a togetherness among us as fans.

That's where we are and where we need to be is where we were the day Kenny took over. Kenny took over and we did unite, 12 months later and there's the infighting again.

Now is the time we do need to be as one because we are struggling on the pitch. Now is when Liverpool fans sing louder, prouder and more often. As soon as one song finishes, another starts. Now is the time when Liverpool Football Club stand together and F**k the bitchiness or the petty squabbles and simply stand shoulder to shoulder against the common enemy - every other F***ing c**t.

I'm not talking about the City or United games because everyone will be wired from the off for those games. I'm talking for a week's time when we travel to Wolves. A ground that we've actually won the League on with Toshack's goals. The fans coming running onto the pitch to celebrate. That's where we need to be together and hopefully the players respond.

It's been a disappointing season but it's not time for us to throw in the towel. We can still get where most would be happy with. We're in a major cup semi final for the first time in years, this time we didn't need to be knocked out of another competition to get in it either. We're in the driving seat in that semi final. We're 90 minutes away from Wembley and those 90 minutes are to be played in front of our own fans at the home of Liverpool Football Club.

So yeah, we're not playing as well as we can but that's the team, not just one or two players. And yeah we're not top of the League like we'd all wish we were but again that's the team who has gotten us 7th, not just one or two players. And yeah, we will win the Carling Cup, we will win the FA Cup and we will finish the season is the top four and that will be because we're a team and not just one or two players.

Billy that is a very good post.

I don't know if im alone in this, but overall I'm happy with our progression, I just think with a little bit of luck and for being more clinical in front of goal, we'd be sat in the top 4.

I was going to start a thread called "A Half Season Of Missed Opportunities", highlighting just how well we have done in games and mostly for scant reward.

Then the Suarez FA documents were released and it went to pot, then I thought I'd do it after that then the E-Petition came to light.

But if any one looks at our fixtures on LFC TV and looks at fixture individually, we've bossed most teams we've played against, we've just lacked that killer instinct.

Billy that is a very good post.

I do produce them from time to time mate

To post, Billy. Can't say I disagree with any of that.

 Top post Bill and I agree with most of it as well. I supported Hodgson too, simply because that's what we do. I 100% support Kenny and believe in him as well, but some of the lads he's signed need a rocket.

Top post Bill and I agree with most of it as well. I supported Hodgson too, simply because that's what we do. I 100% support Kenny and believe in him as well, but some of the lads he's signed need a rocket.

Some of the lads he didn't sign need that same rocket though mate.

Some of the lads he didn't sign need that same rocket though mate.

 Very true. Some have been good servants but have gone over the top, Kuyt being the most glaring example.

Top post Bill and I agree with most of it as well. I supported Hodgson too, simply because that's what we do. I 100% support Kenny and believe in him as well, but some of the lads he's signed need a rocket.

They got a rocket following the match against Bolton mate on live TV and I don't believe for a second it started or ended there.

Its how they react to it now that concerns me.

Will some hide and play it safe everytime because they are frightened of getting it wrong ?

Or Will they come out fighting and take it out on the opposition ?, Guess we'll find out Wednesday night.

I think this club is better than our record, that being said a great NFL coach once said "You are what your record says you are" and right now we are a 7th place team.

Two biggest factors to our struggles seem to be the Lucas injury and the Suarez ban. It was always going to take this team some time to really hit their stride together, so many new faces and with seemingly constant lineup changes that's just a growing pain that we have to deal with...but the injury and the ban really have handcuffed KK. I still think we need to add a clinical type striker in this window (or maybe two). Might just take someone to come in and lead the way to get everyone fired up and hitting their stride. Honestly don't think the likes of Downing, Adam, Hendo and Carroll aren't good enough...but at this point they just don't know what kind of effort is needed to be a first team player on a top flight club. That's what Kenny is hopefully trying to impress upon them and we can only hope they will get that message sooner than later. YNWA

They got a rocket following the match against Bolton mate on live TV and I don't believe for a second it started or ended there.

Its how they react to it now that concerns me.

Will some hide and play it safe everytime because they are frightened of getting it wrong ?

Or Will they come out fighting and take it out on the opposition ?, Guess we'll find out Wednesday night.

I have the same worries mate.

When I mentioned Kenny's reaction after the Bolton game to a friend, he asked if he was one of those managers who follow the philosophy "I win, we draw, they lose" - as a lot of Brazilian managers seem to do -, the kind of attitude I hate with all my heart.

I explained to him that even if it did look like that, Kenny is far from being that kind of man. He always defends his players in a way very few managers do. But the players did deserve to hear all he said this time. Maybe not publicly but if it helps him to make a point to his players, then so be it.

Now I worry about how they'll react, especially cause some of our worst performers this season have constantly been labeled as "confidence players" (or something like that). I've said time and time again that I think confidence can only be an excuse until an extent. If you're going to play for the biggest club in the country, you either have the balls for it or you don't. We must not act like babysitters to highly paid professionals forever. Hopefully they've got the message and will bounce back to winning ways.

bigmick - some good points raised in your OP.

Agree some of the signings have worked out, some haven't.

Suarez, Enrique, Bellamy have been good signings.

Adam, Downing, Carroll haven't.

Jury still out on Henderson.  In his defence he has been forced to play on the wing - he has looked much better in central midfield.

To be fair - if you get 50% of your signings doing great then in modern football you are doing fantastically well.  If we can keep doing well out of half our future signings then it won't take long to make huge leaps forward.

The problem is, perversely, that some LFC fans are so used to looking at the prices - and the fact is that our best 3 signings totalled £30M.  Our worst 3 signings totalled £60M.  If the price tags had been reversed then it wouldn't seem so bad.

The only other issue I have with your post is about Downing.  You say we should play him centrally.

In my opinion the boy is not doing what he could do at Villa on the wing.  He is not going past players.  He is not creating chances and scoring goals.  He either pulls his finger out and does the job he is supposed to in his natural position or he can practice in the reserves.  He has either got confidence problems or laziness problems.  Liverpool fans, at the very least, expect a similar level of ability that he was showing 12 months ago.

Suarez, Enrique, Bellamy have been good signings.

Adam, Downing, Carroll haven't.

The problem is Bellamy is a bit part player who'll hardly be here for much longer, and while Enrique theoretically solved a problem in the squad, we were actually doing quite well with Kelly and Johnson as our fullbacks. In terms of squad depth, our transfer market activity under Kenny has been massive. But in the starting lineup, the only player to make a significant improvement in the team was Suarez.

I post very little so not as informed as many. However everyone with an interest in the game deserves to comment. While i will never question Kenny in terms of what he means to LFC nobody is above the club so nobody is above criticism. What i mean by this is the ultimate responsibility is between manager and players. Buck stops with them and at the moment LFC are not good enough. The Suarez situation has not helped but i believe that show of support against Wigan was counterproductive and i would ask why Kenny as much as he loves the club took the stance he did. If the incident happened against a player from a club other than Man Utd i wonder would such a situation have materialised. Are we at the point of obsession about Utd that deflects from what we should be trying to achieve like they were about LFC when LFC dominated in the '70's and '80's. I mean the FA Cup match will come, Anfield will be rocking, the players will be massively up for it but will it not be just the same post Saturday. I mean why cannot the team be as up for matches with Bolton, Swansea, Norwich etc. as they are for Utd. The bigger picture seems to pass over us these days.

The only other issue I have with your post is about Downing.  You say we should play him centrally.

In my opinion the boy is not doing what he could do at Villa on the wing.  He is not going past players.  He is not creating chances and scoring goals.  He either pulls his finger out and does the job he is supposed to in his natural position or he can practice in the reserves.  He has either got confidence problems or laziness problems.  Liverpool fans, at the very least, expect a similar level of ability that he was showing 12 months ago.

The problem with Downing is that he scored/created so many of his goals for Villa on the counter.  They would use the pace of Young, Bent, Agbonlahor, Downing, and Albrighton to hit out on the counter and create opportunities when the opposition's back line was retreating.  However, due to the patient pass and move style that Dalglish has us playing, we offer little to no threat on the counter attack.  We could provide a reasonable threat on the counter when we get Suarez back if we can put Downing/Suarez/Bellamy as our front 3 with Gerrard in behind them.  That would give us enough pace & ability to cause some problems on the counter attack. 

Suarez's return to action just can't come soon enough....

We could provide a reasonable threat on the counter when we get Suarez back if we can put Downing/Suarez/Bellamy as our front 3 with Gerrard in behind them.  That would give us enough pace & ability to cause some problems on the counter attack.

totally agree with this. at the moment we are like a limp turtle in attack. but these 3 with Gerrard behind could offer us more cutting edge. Gerrard will hopefully get more of his speed back and with reina's passing ability we should defo be breaking quicker.

Now I worry about how they'll react, especially cause some of our worst performers this season have constantly been labeled as "confidence players" (or something like that). I've said time and time again that I think confidence can only be an excuse until an extent. If you're going to play for the biggest club in the country, you either have the balls for it or you don't.

I see where you're coming from regarding how they react and if payers can't respond after a public criticism then it might be best to find out now than go another season or two still not winning anything with players who don't realise the standards we expect.

I really don't care if a few players are sitting now pissed off because Kenny had a go as it doesn't happen very often and needed to be said after Saturday.

I know if I was a manager taking over a team I'd prefer to try to get the best out of Ryan Babel, Joe Cole and Aquilani or Meireles rather than Downing, Carroll and Adam. Some of the decisions that have been made were not putting enough emphasis on talent and we have ended up with less talented than we got rid of. We need to put more faith in buying skillful players than we have in the last year because we have bought predictable players and can see the results of it.

Firstly the signings under Kenny.

Clearly Suarez and Enrique are both unqualified successes, I don't think anyone would argue with that. Then though we have Carroll, Downing, Henderson and Adam.

Carroll is completely out of place in this team. His return of 4 goals from this season would be hard enough for a bargain fee, but considering what we paid for him, borders on abysmal. In fairness, I had barely heard of him before he signed, but I realised as far back as the Braga game, he wasn't up to it. We want to play pass and move, and he is little more than a target man, long ball chaser. So he just doesn't fit into this team. Henderson is here, and another player I hadn't heard of before he arrived, and barely notice him on the pitch. Sunderland is his level. Downing offers an option on the wing, but there's a reason Villa let him go. He's not as good as he was some years ago. Adam is a warrior and a scrapper, and he offers promise, but he's no Alonso.

Souness would not have let players hide as they did against Bolton

Not as a player granted, but he did that in 1993. Going two down at Bolton in the cup and losing the replay, with two performances similiar to Saturday.

About Kenny, I will admit that I wasn't sure if he was the best man 12-18 months ago, because I wanted Kenny to be remembered here for all the great goals, games, and trophies he won as player and coach, not to be trundling around for top 6 spots with an average squad, losing to the likes of Blackpool and Bolton. But he's here, and I do support him. He knows that top 4, let alone top 6 isn't good enough for us, and that only Number 1 will do for Liverpool. That's what we should all aspire to.

Good thread BigMick ! we all have opinions on where the club is at the moment and i feel that we are going in the wrong direction mainly due to lack of real quality signings .Kenny has come in to help build a new dynasty and the pressure to buy players to replace some underachievers has bitten us on the arse ! we have bought players who had one good season . Top quality midfielders (,we need two ,) supplying someone like Suarez and Villa or Milito ( just examples ) instead we bought Adam ,barely a championship player IMO, Henderson , who doesn't commit ,Carroll , who should be pushing any centre back out of the way to reach a ball , instead he waits for scraps , going to take time and patience to get where we need to be so hopefully Kenny and Comolli will hatch a plan to build us great again

Generally agree with the OP but id divide the players another way.

The way I see it if we had 12 players on the pitch we'd win most games so I would list the players who are doing MORE than the job they could reasonably be expected to do at this level to give us the advantage.

Players doing more than their role entails:

Lucas - our most important player. Links defence and attack and sets the pace of the team. Buzzes around everywhere and is essentially doing the work of two midfielders. In addition he is adept at covering for either fullback or central defender when they push out.

Reina - Keeper / sweeper allows the defence to push up when required and starts off many an attack with his distribution.

Skrtel - Excellent defensive performance with good passing range - additionally offers a real goal threat at corners.

Agger - First class defender comfortable bringing the ball from the back which almost invariably throws teams into chaos as they flap around trying to decide who will pick him up. This alone offers an attacking threat but also has a goal threat from his shooting.

Johnson / Kelly - Pacy defenders happy to maraud down the flanks with reasonable distribution as an end product.

Spearing -  Excellent workrate, tenacious and looks for direct forward passes and has a better shot than Lucas

Suarez - Links midfield and attack, always thinking. Better finisher when he is played further up and doesnt have two men to beat first. His sheer danger around the box alters the way teams play against us as they are reluctant to ush out too much. Great workrate and is the first line of defence.



Players who have done their job:

Enrique - Pacy and works well defensively but I think is vastly overrated in terms of his attacking potential / goal threat. Looks impressive burning down the flanks but ends up in cul de sacs surrounded by markers with little end product. Has not formed a partenership with either Bellamy or Downing. Looks like someone who is athletically adept but with little football intelligence - or like a sprinter who decided on a career in professional football late - which is what he is. Can possibly improve the attacking aspect of his game but isnt there yet.

Maxi - Intelligent movement, keen to burst into the box, reasonable finishing ability. Would be a world beater if five years younger.

Henderson - Decent start, high energy levels and keeps play tidy. Will vastly improve goal threat once his confidence increases. Just about qualifies as a starter.

Bellamy- Pacy, does a great job playing from the left or as a support striker. Intelligent and tenacious, shot like a whipcrack but pretty much what you'd hope for from a player in his position oplaying for our club.

Gerrard - Can be world class in the right advanced position but has defensive indisciplines which means he needs support if he's playing in the middle.


Players who are not  doing the job they should:
Carragher - his legs are gone leading to him having to resort to fouling and thereby being directly responsible for a number of goals at the beginning of teh season. Doesnt cross the halfway line offering no attacking threat and causes the whole team to play deeper than we should. Distribution is woeful and his organisational skills appear to unnerve whoever he plays with (apart rom Agger). Was a great defender for us but time catches up with everyone.

Carroll - Debated to death but the results are plain to see. Has been unlucky with the poor swervice he has received but should be fighting harder. Beacuse he has never really played in a full strength team I stil lthink its too early to pass a definitive judgement but time is running out for him. May still pull it round if he gets the kind of service Gerrard was able to supply in the Newcastle game.

Kuyt - Age has caught up with him. Normally impeccable workrate has severely dropped off this season. First touch has steadily declined and should only be backup striker in a pinch.

Downing - Started well but is now hiding on the pitch. Not trying hard enough to make chance sfor the team and offers little in terms of tracking back. As a 'proven premiership' player in his prime has been by far he most disappointing signing of the Summer. A 20 million pound England international with (maybe) 40 caps looks nowhere near as threatening as the likes of Junior Hoilet who must have been rated at about 3.5 million or so in Summer.

Adam - could potentially be a valuable squad option but is only an acceptable option in centre mid when the rest of the midfield are working for him. Absolute disaster trying to play him deeply in the Lucas role as he is simply not mobile enough as should be evidenced by the fact we are both not providing any cover for our defence nor breaking into the box to shoot on goal.

Good thread starter this plus some good responses already. It's been a funny season really. 4-5 weeks ago I think most fans were pretty happy. The defence looked water tight, we were there or there abouts in the league, we were still waiting for Stevie to come back and even Charlie Adam was playing quite well. But 5 weeks is a hell of a long time in football and despite some excellent results in the League Cup our league form has gone off the boil, Lucas is lost for the season and Luis is banned for 9 games. Without a doubt this is a real crossroads as far as this season goes. Win our next 4 and suddenly we're in a Wembley Cup final, we're 2nd favourites for the Cup and right back up there in the race for 4th and the talk will be very different but it could all go the other way as well.

When we're struggling debate will ALWAYS turn to the signings that have been made in the last 12 months. It might not be their fault necessarily and it might irk some people but the fact is when you spend big money on players and they don't work out it means money that could have been used to strengthen the side is effectively gone unless you are City or Chelsea of course.

So it's hard to get away from the 3 lads who cost the most, particularly when you look at our performances and ask the question, where do we need to strengthen? As things stand we need a striker, we need an effective wide player and we need another centre-mid. and there lies a problem. The club have spent £82 million to buy 4 (including Adam here) players to play in these positions so Kenny is now in the catch 22 of whether to play them and hope they become what he hoped they would or does he go back to the board with cap in hand, look elsewhere in the squad or perhaps to the youth set-up?

Looking at the team overall I still think we have balance issues. The back 4 looks solid as a rock. Skrtel and Agger have been a revelation, Enrique has been one of the most astute signings of the off season and Jonno is having his best season at the club. But the front 6 are all wrong for me. Dowing is the only genuine winger at the club but despite a bright start he is not performing and the other options are all honest players (Kuyt, Maxi, Henderson) who are no better than temporary solutions. A genuinely quality wide player would make a HUGE difference to this team I think, even more than the poacher everyone keeps talking about. poor wing play is the reason we are struggling to break teams down at Anfield this season. In the middle of the park we've got real issues now that Lucas is gone for the season. Spearing is an able to replacement but he's struggling to be available for all the games and the other lads (Adam, Hendo, Shelvey) can't play the same role. Stevie can do it but we need him effecting things further up the pitch.

Upfront we're in a spot without Luis. The most natural partnership i've seen (if we're playing with 2) this season has been Kuyt and Suarez in terms of their movment and link up play but Dirk hasn't got a goal all season and neither has Luis been prolific. The Carroll-Suarez partnership has never really looked right and we find ourselves relying ever more on the evergreen Craig Bellamy who has been by far the best player this past 4-5 weeks. Obviously Carroll is the elephant in the room (not making a reference to his ability there but it would be easy to make that assumption). What do you do with him and how do you want him to fit into the way the team plays? It can't be easy, our best performances under Kenny have all been about tempo, movement, pressing the ball and quick interplay. Big Andy doesn't fit into that. Clearly the hope was that he would but he doesn't and he won't. Consequently his confidence has drained to zero. If nothing else the Suarez ban has meant he is getting games now but he's only got a few more to show it or he'll be back on the bench dreaming of fog on the Tyne again.

Something that has been a problem for me is do we have anyone to play the lone frontman? The game has moved on from 4-4-2 and now it's all about packing the middle, using midfield runners, attacking full backs and having a front player who can lead the line all by himself. That means having the pace and mobility to occupy two defenders, having the strength to hold it up and MOST importantly scoring goals. There players are like gold dust. We used to have one until he got his head turned and made the biggest mistake of his career and unfortunately for us we haven't replaced him. Luis can do it, he's quick, he's mobile, intelligent, great at rolling players and getting into shooting positions. Only problem is he isn't a clinical finisher but he could play at inside right or left IF we could find another player to play high and through the middle. Kuyt isn't up to it and clearly Big Andy isn't a lone striker, at least not for the way we play football so that for me is sometihng that needs to be solved long term.

I think this thread has the potential to get quite whingey and I don't think that is necessarily a true reflection of the season so far because there have been some real high points as well. Two wins at Stanford Bridge, one at Arsenal and one at City are not to be sniffed at and as I said before, win our next few games and we'll all be on cloud nine. I read somewhere today that Werner and Henry were heading across the water so fingers crossed that means they have come to talk about some potential transfer activity because It's definately needed.I don't think they will spend big like last year but a couple of signings could give the squad a bit of a lift, address some of those balance issues and also give Kenny a couple of bullets in the gun that he was waving at the players after the Bolton performance.   

I whole heartedly agree with all fellow reds who have posted on here since saturdays page turning performance at Bolton..I say Page Turning because I feel it has to be the end of the 11 single players game and the new beginning of the team game..We might see those happy jolly faces in training having a laugh team building their collective moral but is the tactical mentality getting through or are they more concerned as to whether they should wear the orange Nike F50's on saturday or how sh*t there gonna look with red socks !!!
Over the years we as followers have witnessed our pass and move football delight the world and in more recent seasons under a foreign style coaching regime watched it happen faster and more acurate.. we have, as many other clubs have in this league adopted a quick pace to the game from the first whistle to the last and our foreign adopted players have helped up that pace and skill..
I was watching a great flowing game the other night on LFCTV with the likes of Gerrad/Murphy/Hamann feeding Heskey/Owen/Fowler and Baros..Then you had Whelan/Rush/Barnes/Beardsley/Molby knocking it about lovely..Christ even Kenny himself alongside McDermott , Souness , Lee , Kennedy played some amazing football to watch..but this lot !!..since post Istanbul we have tried and tried to play that quick pass n move again and again BUT we have lacked anyone apart from Alonso & Gerrard who can put a ball on a sixpence from 40 yards and without that kind of quick thinking to deliver the killer pass either along the deck, chipped over the back four or whipped across the face of the goal...our fledgling strikers will never score..
What I watched on Saturday at Bolton was a disjointed bunch of men who panicked everytime the ball was passed to them..it was almost like they were say to each other "e r have it back"..there was no creative vision in midfield as we've become accustomed to.No one to take the game by the scruff of the neck..Bellamy excused..
Which brings me to my final point in relation to the title of the thread..The Harsh reality is that we cannot perform without our quick thinking foriegn stars like Suarez and Lucas..so there is nowhere to hide . Teams around Europe are all strengthening squads and improving their tactics...
We need to keep up...our Legacy is carved in stone for all to see yet I would like to see us get some new silverware in the cabinet for the new generation of reds fans(my two lads) to maintain the belief..
and
What a perfect opportunity to put that right against Man City on weds night and go on to lift a trophy at wembley.
but we need to revisit our tactics and overall gameplay as well as looking to import more skill to have any chance whatsoever.

Generally agree with the OP but id divide the players another way.

The way I see it if we had 12 players on the pitch we'd win most games so I would list the players who are doing MORE than the job they could reasonably be expected to do at this level to give us the advantage.

Players doing more than their role entails:

Lucas - our most important player. Links defence and attack and sets the pace of the team. Buzzes around everywhere and is essentially doing the work of two midfielders. In addition he is adept at covering for either fullback or central defender when they push out.

Reina - Keeper / sweeper allows the defence to push up when required and starts off many an attack with his distribution.

Skrtel - Excellent defensive performance with good passing range - additionally offers a real goal threat at corners.

Agger - First class defender comfortable bringing the ball from the back which almost invariably throws teams into chaos as they flap around trying to decide who will pick him up. This alone offers an attacking threat but also has a goal threat from his shooting.

Johnson / Kelly - Pacy defenders happy to maraud down the flanks with reasonable distribution as an end product.

Spearing -  Excellent workrate, tenacious and looks for direct forward passes and has a better shot than Lucas

Suarez - Links midfield and attack, always thinking. Better finisher when he is played further up and doesnt have two men to beat first. His sheer danger around the box alters the way teams play against us as they are reluctant to ush out too much. Great workrate and is the first line of defence.



Players who have done their job:

Enrique - Pacy and works well defensively but I think is vastly overrated in terms of his attacking potential / goal threat. Looks impressive burning down the flanks but ends up in cul de sacs surrounded by markers with little end product. Has not formed a partenership with either Bellamy or Downing. Looks like someone who is athletically adept but with little football intelligence - or like a sprinter who decided on a career in professional football late - which is what he is. Can possibly improve the attacking aspect of his game but isnt there yet.

Maxi - Intelligent movement, keen to burst into the box, reasonable finishing ability. Would be a world beater if five years younger.

Henderson - Decent start, high energy levels and keeps play tidy. Will vastly improve goal threat once his confidence increases. Just about qualifies as a starter.

Bellamy- Pacy, does a great job playing from the left or as a support striker. Intelligent and tenacious, shot like a whipcrack but pretty much what you'd hope for from a player in his position oplaying for our club.

Gerrard - Can be world class in the right advanced position but has defensive indisciplines which means he needs support if he's playing in the middle.


Players who are not  doing the job they should:
Carragher - his legs are gone leading to him having to resort to fouling and thereby being directly responsible for a number of goals at the beginning of teh season. Doesnt cross the halfway line offering no attacking threat and causes the whole team to play deeper than we should. Distribution is woeful and his organisational skills appear to unnerve whoever he plays with (apart rom Agger). Was a great defender for us but time catches up with everyone.

Carroll - Debated to death but the results are plain to see. Has been unlucky with the poor swervice he has received but should be fighting harder. Beacuse he has never really played in a full strength team I stil lthink its too early to pass a definitive judgement but time is running out for him. May still pull it round if he gets the kind of service Gerrard was able to supply in the Newcastle game.

Kuyt - Age has caught up with him. Normally impeccable workrate has severely dropped off this season. First touch has steadily declined and should only be backup striker in a pinch.

Downing - Started well but is now hiding on the pitch. Not trying hard enough to make chance sfor the team and offers little in terms of tracking back. As a 'proven premiership' player in his prime has been by far he most disappointing signing of the Summer. A 20 million pound England international with (maybe) 40 caps looks nowhere near as threatening as the likes of Junior Hoilet who must have been rated at about 3.5 million or so in Summer.

Adam - could potentially be a valuable squad option but is only an acceptable option in centre mid when the rest of the midfield are working for him. Absolute disaster trying to play him deeply in the Lucas role as he is simply not mobile enough as should be evidenced by the fact we are both not providing any cover for our defence nor breaking into the box to shoot on goal.

Pretty hard to knock this analysis, good summary

Have to say though, I think Aurelio has been Mr Consistant this season,, exactly what I expected from him.

Have to say though, I think Aurelio has been Mr Consistant this season,, exactly what I expected from him.

Carroll I think takes that title. 

The fact that the net spending isnt that high does not affect the fact that millions were spent on the wrong players. I think we all agree that 100 million pounds could buy far better than we have. I know we are all "managers" and I hate the fantasy football lads saying "buy this one" or "buy that one", because there are a lot more things involved in a transfer than just will and money. But hell, i cant believe this is the best we can buy for that amount.

I think the initial goal for the seaason was to secure CL spot, and get the  potentially great young players we bought a good run of games, slowly slotting them into the team, to form a golden generation that would rule Europe in years to come. The problem with this is that at the moment, the team has failed to secure 4th place, and its harder with every match. 100 millions is a lot of money, and that alone should suffice to get some world class talent.

We bought an entire hen house, and no rooster


Now, a team needs depth, that is essential, but id settle for a good starting eleven, and we are not even there yet. Im not a doom monger, but unlike most of you, my opinion goes beyond the pure passion you guys feel. I love your club, i love Liverpool, but i can only feel passion for my local club. That said, I feel the squads performance can be measured by position:
Defence: we are sorted in this area, good starters, and good bench. good mixture of experience and youngsters

Midfield: different animal when Lucas is on the pitch. Gerrard has been most of the season injured, and i dont even remember if the two played together this season!. I dont rate Spearing as much as most of you, i think he is average good, Adam is average average, Henderson plays in a position where im in no mood for waiting for the lad, i need class now!

Attack: Bellamy has been consistent,  his knees are the main concern, but at least he puts an extra shift. Kuyt is useless if he has lost his pace, Downing has been nowhere near the winger I hoped he was. I hadnt seen him play before he played for us, but he cant even get a cross right, what gets me to Andy. While I do believe he will turn good with better service, I think he is Horribly unidimensional. And for a lad his size, he lets defenders push him around far too much...a sheep in wolves clothes. As for Suarez, he is one of the best finishers in the world, he just cant finish in Liverpool. He has been outstanding everywhere else, even in the 2010 WC, and the Copa America...so my guess is his "clynicalness" (is that even a word?) is not the problem.

As for Kenny, I personally like his style of play, and he brings so much more to any team than just tactics, but he has NOT the players to perform, and he is the one who chose them, so that bit of responsibility is his alone.

Im confident things will improve. We will get 4th, we will beat manure, and maybe win a cup or two. But somethings gotta give, and I think last game was a breaking point. Up is the only way I see the season finale

unlike most of you, my opinion goes beyond the pure passion you guys feel. I love your club, i love Liverpool, but i can only feel passion for my local club.

It shouldn't make any difference. We have a foreign-run club, foreign players, a global fanbase, and whether you're from Liverpool, Lagos, Las Vegas, or anywhere else, you can support Liverpool as passionately as anyone else.

THE single biggest problem is our inability to kill off little teams.
The solution, is to play some reserves against these teams ,to give some first teamers a reality check, the desire to win would be there,
our mentallity has been at this place for some years now, no matter what manager we have had.
It doesnt help that we are still the forth biggest supported club in the world, as we are always a scalp even if we are outside the top 5, the lesser teams are inspired to do well against us, and yes they are excited by playing in front of the kop, this stangely helps them, so we need a unique stratergy to deal with this massive problem. After all, without those silly draws in recent years we would be top 4 regulars.

But i say this now, and you must listen, we are nearly in one final, and we can beat man u in the other cup match, this in reality could put us at wembley twice this year. I dont really mind if we are a cup team during these early kenny years, because the club has been to hell and back, and our supporters still demand instant success. Weve got to get real, it will take another two years to challenge for the league because of these facts, and only kenny can do this.  have faith in the great man people, the players need to pull their fingers out too, and have faith in the master.

It shouldn't make any difference. We have a foreign-run club, foreign players, a global fanbase, and whether you're from Liverpool, Lagos, Las Vegas, or anywhere else, you can support Liverpool as passionately as anyone else.

I meant i hardly ever have red tinted glasses

Let's be honest though, we can't be angry at how far we've come, our anger is based on the same things it has been for years - the players aren't playing to the standards of the red shirt. In years gone by this was because of many off field issues and some on field - but this time around we know it is nothing but the squad coming together and changing drastically. Yes the likes of Henderson, Adam, Downing and Carroll aren't living up to our expectations but people have said it before, they've come from bloody Sunderland, Blackpool, Villa, Newcastle no disrespect to them but we're much much bigger than them. The likes of Skrtel, Agger, Johnson, Reina? Of course they are performing for the red shirt because they've been doing it for years. Suarez and Enrique are world class talents and could drop into any Premiership side so we aren't complaining.

Personally, I don't give a sh*t about price tags, they have nothing to do with how our players are being raised and they didn't ask for them. If we have the backing and our owners are happy to spend I think it's basically irrelevant and certainly shouldn't be brought up as you vent about the teams loss or players disappointing performance. It speaks more about you as a person to constantly bring up who we could have bought for that 16m or 20m, it shows your disrespect to our manager and our club and the way we want to go about it. If you want a club that has an issue and fixes it with a 35m winger, City are building something for you.

The way I look at it Kenny inherited a pretty bad squad and he's rightfully, understandably decided to build a new one, his way, from the core. He must be thankful all he had to fix up in defense was left back. He bought Downing to get years out of him and Henderson as someone who will be in our midfield every game for as many years as he can play. Adam was a great deal and good back up to Gerrard, although we are hoping Shelvey and/or Henderson show enough to play the second half of the season Adam will do a good job whenever he plays. It is not his fault Lucas went down and then Spearing and all of a sudden he finds himself a vital cog of the Liverpool midfield I think even he would admit he isn't up to that yet. But all these players especially Suarez and Carroll can become something if we have the faith Kenny is showing. I think the world is effecting the way we think too much, who we could have bought is irrelevent in my eyes, because we didn't buy them, whether they didn't want to come here or we didn't find them right for whatever reason. I support our players and want them to succeed, can't imagine thinking otherwise.

I agree with the op saying Downing needs a rocket up his arse, he is the one for me that has to be performing better regardless of the price and all, why isn't he getting into dangerous areas himself, maybe he is playing a strict role, but something is off in the way we attack. Think he would benifit more from the midfielders getting closer to the goals and being threats or at least taking up some space and making runs. If King Kenny can't motivate these guys to attack with some gusto and fire I have no idea who could. Maybe the injection of Luis Suarez in a couple of games will really help our team tick and attack attack attack and change our mentality for the better.

Personally, I don't give a sh*t about price tags, they have nothing to do with how our players are being raised and they didn't ask for them. If we have the backing and our owners are happy to spend I think it's basically irrelevant and certainly shouldn't be brought up as you vent about the teams loss or players disappointing performance. It speaks more about you as a person to constantly bring up who we could have bought for that 16m or 20m, it shows your disrespect to our manager and our club and the way we want to go about it. If you want a club that has an issue and fixes it with a 35m winger, City are building something for you.

Its not about solving issues with money, its actually about failure to do so... Its a known variable: the money was spent. Im not saying money will solve any teams problems, but the amount spent seems obscene for the results, dont you think?

Its not about solving issues with money, its actually about failure to do so... Its a known variable: the money was spent. Im not saying money will solve any teams problems, but the amount spent seems obscene for the results, dont you think?

You have a point,

Henderson: I don't think was meant to be an every match starter as it has turned out to be. Yes we paid 20m for him but if you want young and English then be prepared to overpay. That being said I think he has massive talent and he needs to be brought on slowly, really shades of Lucas going on here; you can see the talent but it's not going to happen overnight, nor have I ever expected it to.

Adam: Well say what you want, I get frustrated with the poor defense and set pieces along with everything else. That being said Adam did not break the bank so for a squad player forced into a starting role (Gerrards) and then into an entirely new role (Lucas being gone) its been a mixed bag of inconsistency.

Carroll: Biggest money spent and biggest failure so far

Downing: Another huge amount spent for almost 0 production

That is 55M spent on 2 players that have contributed next to nothing for the squad. Yes I know Enrique was a steal and Bellers was on a free but 55M is alot of money when you consider that would have bought us 2.5x Luis Suarez's.

The reality is this whether people want to believe it or not, we are building and since the beginning neither the owners, Ayre or Kenny has been blowing fairy dust up our arse about the huge amount of work that needs to be done to get LFC back to where it belongs. You can go back to Henry's first real interview and listen when he basically said the club was in ruins and this was not going to happen overnight. Well guess what? it's not happening overnight like we want it.

We are playing better football, a bit of luck and we would be right in that top 4 but it has not happened. Honest to God if we could even get 25% production from that 55M spent on Carroll and Downing we would be in the top 4.

For now all I can do is watch, listen and discuss things are still in a state of flux at the club and it in the end it will get sorted I am sure; however I just don't know how long it will take.

We are playing better football, a bit of luck and we would be right in that top 4 but it has not happened. Honest to God if we could even get 25% production from that 55M spent on Carroll and Downing we would be in the top 4.

I disagree about Downing to be honest, yes he's been good in some games and yes he has been poor in others, but if I remember rightly, up until the Bolton game, he was top if the highest creators in the league and top of the most crosses in the league, so he's obviously doing something right in terms of production.

For me it all comes down to being clinical as had we been and we'd took our chances the results against Bolton & Spurs would have been considered a blip & this thread would not even exist.

Frustration has boiled over because of all the draws we've had and the points we have dropped because of them and rose to the surface after the Bolton game IMO & all that could have been avoided if we'd conveerted our chances and had a little luck (cross bar challenge).

The reality is this whether people want to believe it or not, we are building and since the beginning neither the owners, Ayre or Kenny has been blowing fairy dust up our arse about the huge amount of work that needs to be done to get LFC back to where it belongs. You can go back to Henry's first real interview and listen when he basically said the club was in ruins and this was not going to happen overnight.

Well guess what? ...    it's not happening overnight like we want it.

Its a case of managing our expectations.

The HARSH REALITY about the team is :-

1.  Do the players have the WINNIG MENTALITY for every game? I find it mind boggling that we beat Chelsea twice, Man City and Arsenal and lost  to and drawn with lesser sides. But we also have to admit that those games won were due to some of opposition key players missing and we still have Suarez, hence there is a bit of handicap here. The only players that  have that natural WINNING MENTALITY is Pepe, Agger, Skrtel, Stevie, Kelly, Suarez, Bellamy, Johnson and Enrique. It pains me to say that KD will have to be more ruthless from now on, all 11 players on the field are treated equal and MUST have that WINNING MENTALITY, otherwise ship them out, we have no time for those with a loosers mentality and softies. The mentality from now on should be; a game drawn is as good as a game lost and a game lost is a crisis,  game won is not good enough, we need to win by a bigger margin the next game. No more hands on the shoulder by KD, as someone has rightly put it, honeymoon is long over.   Seriously, we may need to create a portfolio for Tommy Smith to whip those loosers mentality into shape.

In summary, the HARSH REALITY is we only have, most probably, about half the team that has that winning mentality.

2. Do our midfielders and forwards dare to or have the determination to TAKE ON THE OPPOSITION DEFENDERS 1 to 1? The answer is no, except for Stevie, Suarez and Bellamy, to a certain extend Enrique but he's no midfielder or striker. Andy used to be good at that when he was at Newcastle but now he spends a big portion of the game waiting for the ball to be lumped to him and he's as guilty as anyone else for not making space for himself and trying to link up with the rest. A few weeks ago, out of desperation I suggestedd Bellamy to play as a striker and due to limited options that happened and I'm delighted that he scored a goal against Bolton. That is a clear sign that if we want to intimidate the opposition, we need intimidating, intelligent and robust forwards like Suarez and Bellamy that dares to take on defenders and bully them.

The HARSH REALITY is we don't have intimidating forward and midfield line, except for Bellamy, Suarez and Stevie. The midfield certainly needs an overhaul while the forward line needs reinforcement.

3. Are we making those QUICK INTELLIGENT RUNS into the opposition box and is the MOVEMENT OF OUR PLAYERS FLUID on the attack and defence? Not really so, as far as I can see we have been so predictable that it is easy to play against. We regained possession in our own half, the ball passed to Adam/Kuyt/Henderson, next a side or back passes and it slowed down our attack and on most occassions the ball moved back into our own half, a big relief to the opposite side. Or the ball passed to the wing and whipped into the box for Andy. We simply don't have that vision to make those intelligent moves and passes to split the oppositon defence. Sad to say, the engine room in midfield is simply not good enough for LFC except for Stevie, that's where the war is won or lost. Adam is too slow and he camped too deep inside our half and when we regained possession we just can't find him inside the opposition box to launch a quick attack because he's too slow, the distance between him and Andy is oceans apart. The only reason that I can think of why Adam did not do those penetrative runs into the opposition box like he used to with Blackpool and had hurted us before could be due to his immobility and lack of defensive qualities. He dares not to move too near to the opposition box fearing that as soon as we lose possession he will not be fast enough to track back to cover resulting in him committing those desperate fouls. We have to face the HARSH REALITY, is Adam good enough as an attacking midfielder without neglecting his defensive duties? I'd put it that he's a plus on the offensive but useless on the defensive to regain possession, someone has to do his defensive duties and that's holding back the team, no good. That's how I sees it in the Bolton game, time for him to move on.

A good example is Alonso, in his first year he's world class on the attack and hopeless in defense, he doesn't track back fast enough and doesn't tackle hard enough and we conceded some goals because of him. I believe Benitez saw that and worked on that and the last game I saw him playing against Barcelona in the Copa Del Rey, he's a world class attacking and defensive midfielder.

Again in the Copa Del Rey, the game between Real Madrid and Barcelona was like Stoke against Liverpool. Madrid parked the bus and Barcelona knocked the ball all over the pitch, like what we did, but the difference is they have players that can picked up other players that made intelligent runs into the box and the scorers were Puyol and Abidal, both defenders.

As for Kuyt, I'm not sure what is his role, a striker or winger? To me he's redundant, more of a hindrance than a help; ball passed to him instead of heading towards the opposition box or pass to someone in front of him, he made those back passes and it's so frustrating to see that time and again. I just lost count how many times he did that in every game. I think we will not miss him much if he decides to move on. As for Henderson, he may have potential but we just don't have the time for him to develope his potential, we're not a league one side that has time to develope players we're fighting for honours and everyone counts and he needs to show his potential starting in the next game.  We don't find too many things wrong in his game because he spent most of the time making those side and backpasses. He is hardworking, running all over the pitch but if he doesn't put in tackles to distrupt the attack  to regain possession, all those running comes to nothing. He keeps tracking back when defending when there's no one to defend in front of him, he should be moving nearer to the next opposition player and hope to win tackles to regain possession, sadly his vision of the game is still very much lacking. Both him and Adam has simply slow us down when we attack where Stevie could be at gear 3 going into 4 when both are still at gear 1.

The HARSH REALITY is our midfield is like an old locomotive chugging away, slow, unimaginative and not competitive, except for Stevie.


 

We need to start putting in the young reserve-academy players. They are hungry for it. Look at the ones we filtered through they were liverpool through and through. Lets do the same with the ones that we have now.

We need to start putting in the young reserve-academy players. They are hungry for it. Look at the ones we filtered through they were liverpool through and through. Lets do the same with the ones that we have now.

I somewhat agree with that, take a look at Kelly, never heard of him before and he settled in so well and is like a veteran already. Looks like if we ever buy players again it has to be better and above than what we already have, otherwise, it's a waste of resources and much more heartache to come and instead of improving it's a move in the opposite direction.

The harsh reality. 

We've improved from last season, maybe not as much as the outlay should suggest we should.  I said at the beginning of this season I wanted an overall improvement and I've seen that.  Yes, some things have been niggling through out the season and Stoke, Spurs and Bolton were atrocious.  Ignoring the price tags, we've made some bad buys, we've made some good ones, some are OK.

Next season, I'll expect improvement again, because we're not close enough to what we want, as fans and as a club.

First off; let me say that I've really enjoyed reading this thread: fantastic, well constructed, posts and varied opinion. Varied opinion that, I'll admit has my head a bit scrambled - one minute I'm thinking 'yes, nail on the head' then I read another post which offers an alternative viewpoint and think 'excellent point'. Opinions have been offered and left at that with no demands to be the only voice heard. Excellent.

Right 'smoke blowing' out of the way, my tuppence worth... which is more observation than anything.

Let's look at what  may be considered the 'good signings'...

 * Enrique - has slotted in well, with established players, in a defence that was already looking solid before he arrived.

* Bellamy - a veteran of many a campaign who's scored everywhere he's been. It should come as no surprise that he'd succeed especially when he's used sparingly.

* Coates - glimpses of what I see as a potentially top player in years to come but let's be fair here.. he hasn't played enough for us to be praising him as a success really.

Now, the 'ordinary'/jury's out signings:

* Adam - hasn't delivered on the promise of last season yet he's been an ever present in an anything but stable or well established midfield. To my mind, whilst he hasn't set the world alight (and probably never will), he's been solid enough in a midfield which hasn't had the luxury of stability.

* Henderson - I genuinely believe he's been bought with a long term eye on replacing Stevie and that's why he's getting so much game time. Let's be honest here too; he's not a right-winger and is very much a work in progress.

This leaves, as I see it, the 'flops'...

Like it or not, in a team who's only failing, (in my opinion), so far... has been a lack of goals it's only natural we look to those who were supposed to provide what's missing. One "harsh reality" is Carroll and Downing are the only two who fit that bill totally but just a thought...

In a world of "harsh reality" what about this... we've all succumbed (myself included) to the 'we want it all and we want it now' mindset and it ain't pretty. A sh*te display at Bolton and what looks like player apathy has overshadowed wins at Arsenal, Everton, Chelsea and City. Should we let it or should we wait-see how the players respond from Kenny's rocket? 

I always say to fellow fans that it's crucial the fans get behind the backs of our players, particularly in times when players lack confidence. But does a lack of confidence really result in a lack of eagerness on the pitch? They don't look eager to impress. They look sluggish and lethargic once again, an issue we've seen far too much of the last 2 and a half years. What makes the recent dip in form even more bizarre is the vast improvements we saw from Liverpool in 2011 under Dalglish. It's ridiculous to lose faith in players like Adam, Carroll and Downing on the basis of one slump, but what makes this even more difficult is that they're all slumping at the same time.

It's a strange strange thing that's going on.

I know we are all "managers" and I hate the fantasy football lads saying "buy this one" or "buy that one", because there are a lot more things involved in a transfer than just will and money. But hell, i cant believe this is the best we can buy for that amount.

To be honest that's as good and fair a point as I've read on the 'price tag' debate Quico. However, the fact remains, whilst a price tag may weigh heavily on a player's mind and therefore may have some impact on performance, it's his ability, or lack of, which ultimately determines success or failure.

If he preforms the price tag becomes irrelevant. We forget then that we could have done better for the money... even if we could have. We stop looking at others with an envious eye. We don't care about his price simply because 'we' are winning but... When your main hope couldn't hit a bull's ass with a spade he's always going to have been a waste of money; be it £10m, £35m or £50m.

As you point out, we can all play fantasy manger with no method of measuring the hypothetical 'if only' and no consequences... just the luxury of being in the position of never being wrong.

With transfers, like everything, you win some, you lose some; there's no magic formula and there's no point dwelling on the ifs and buts.

One final thought tho' - if Kenny had the luxury of time and the ability to introduce just two signings per season; the 'slow burners' and 'flops' may not have been just as noticeable. We, to a man, demanded wholesale changes last Summer... because we needed them. We got them along with the mixed results that could normally be expected with so many transfers - it's just that we got them all at once. 

To be honest that's as good and fair a point as I've read on the 'price tag' debate Quico. However, the fact remains, whilst a price tag may weigh heavily on a player's mind and therefore may have some impact on performance, it's his ability, or lack of, which ultimately determines success or failure.

If he preforms the price tag becomes irrelevant. We forget then that we could have done better for the money... even if we could have. We stop looking at others with an envious eye. We don't care about his price simply because 'we' are winning but... When your main hope couldn't hit a bull's ass with a spade he's always going to have been a waste of money; be it £10m, £35m or £50m.

That is a solid point. And true, since we do notice it only when a player fails to deliver.

   
Players who are not  doing the job they should:
    Carragher - his legs are gone leading to him having to resort to fouling and thereby being directly responsible for a number of goals at the beginning of teh season. Doesnt cross the halfway line offering no attacking threat and causes the whole team to play deeper than we should. Distribution is woeful and his organisational skills appear to unnerve whoever he plays with (apart rom Agger). Was a great defender for us but time catches up with everyone.

    Carroll - Debated to death but the results are plain to see. Has been unlucky with the poor swervice he has received but should be fighting harder. Beacuse he has never really played in a full strength team I stil lthink its too early to pass a definitive judgement but time is running out for him. May still pull it round if he gets the kind of service Gerrard was able to supply in the Newcastle game.

    Kuyt - Age has caught up with him. Normally impeccable workrate has severely dropped off this season. First touch has steadily declined and should only be backup striker in a pinch.

    Downing - Started well but is now hiding on the pitch. Not trying hard enough to make chance sfor the team and offers little in terms of tracking back. As a 'proven premiership' player in his prime has been by far he most disappointing signing of the Summer. A 20 million pound England international with (maybe) 40 caps looks nowhere near as threatening as the likes of Junior Hoilet who must have been rated at about 3.5 million or so in Summer.

    Adam - could potentially be a valuable squad option but is only an acceptable option in centre mid when the rest of the midfield are working for him. Absolute disaster trying to play him deeply in the Lucas role as he is simply not mobile enough as should be evidenced by the fact we are both not providing any cover for our defence nor breaking into the box to shoot on goal.

I can go with that.

Here's an interesting list I saw earlier ;

Top 10 Premier League Transfers

1. Fernando Torres: Liverpool to Chelsea – £50m (2011)
t2. Sergio Aguero: Atletico Madrid to Manchester City – £35m (2011)
t2. Andy Carroll: Newcastle United to Liverpool – £35m (2011)
4. Robinho: Real Madrid to Manchester City – £32.5m (2008)
5. Andriy Shevchenko: AC Milan to Chelsea – £30.8m (2006)
6. Dimitar Berbatov: Tottenham to Manchester United – £30.75m (2008)
7. Rio Ferdinand: Leeds to Manchester United – £29.1m (2002)
8. Juan Sebastian Veron: Lazio to Manchester United – £28.1m (2001)
9. Edin Dzeko: Wolfsburg to Manchester City – £27m (2011)
10. Wayne Rooney: Everton to Manchester United – £25.6m (2004)
Missed the Cut: Samir Nasri: Arsenal to Manchester City – £25m (2011), Juan Mata: Valencia to Chelsea – £23.5m (2011)

Bumped from the top 10:10. Didier Drogba: Marseille to Chelsea – £24m (2004), Michael Essien: Lyon to Chelsea – £24.43m (2005), James Milner: Aston Villa to Manchester City – £24m (2010), David Silva: Valencia to Manchester City – £24m (2010), Yaya Toure: Barcelona to Manchester City – £24m (2010), Darren Bent: Sunderland to Aston Villa – £24m (2011)

What you've gotta ask yourself is when you look down that list...Who is really worth it?..which few have delivered their worth?..
Then you look at what Suarez cost us and how much he delivers...thats the harsh reality !!
The game has changed so much since Trevor Francis(I think?) broke that million pound barrier eh..

From the top 10, Aguero (so far) and Shrek.

Not great is it?
Nice find.

Looks like £24m is the price to aim for, then you get players like Drogba, Essien, Silva and Yaya Toure 

And Suarez

Looks like £24m is the price to aim for, then you get players like Drogba, Essien, Silva and Yaya Toure 

Seems that way...a lot of the African National players seem to have that skill factor along with the physical strength I think you need to succeed in this league..The Spainish and majority of South American lads are very skillful yet not as physical..I mean that Yaya Toure must be 7 ft tall for chris's sake..and he just ploughs his way through like a breeze....I think Drogba has well repaid Chelsea back..
The problems are those periods of the season when you lose the African lads for their ANC and Man city have felt that this year losing their playmaker..as Chelsea have noticed losing Essien..
Then we've got a Glaswegian , a few geordie lads and a scouser , oh and a mad welshman trying to boss the game...ha ha ha..Love it..

The harsh reality is we had to build a squad so that we can build a team around it next season. We have Suarez Gerrard Reina Lucas Agger-Skrtel spine with some weaklings around that can do a job. We will soon buy some stars to make the team a title beater!

From the top 10, Aguero (so far) and Shrek.

Not great is it?
Nice find.

Looks like £24m is the price to aim for, then you get players like Drogba, Essien, Silva and Yaya Toure 

As much as I hate the c**t, Ferdinand was a good buy for the shithawk Scum as well. Ridiculous price at the time, but they've had lots of success since then.

We have badly missed a fit stevie, an injured Lucas and Suarez being banned. I don't believe for one minute that we would be questioning the players if all of these three had played every game.
Saying that i agree with bigmick about the players underperforming.It is a season of head scratching and frustration because we should be doing better.

As much as I hate the c**t, Ferdinand was a good buy for the shithawk Scum as well. Ridiculous price at the time, but they've had lots of success since then.

I know what you mean but I left him out due to the bit in bold. He's been good for them but no world beater so the price they payed (at 2002 prices) was huge.

Great thread.

Tis bin a strange season/last year for the club alright. No doubting some of the signings have not risen to the challenge but as far as questioning KK with more funds I cant believe people are saying that in other threads. Carroll, albeit for crazy money, was a signing most managers would of made. He was a beast at Newcastle and for 10m he would of been a steal but KK's hand was forced and the fee paid was robbery at its best. BUT the money was there to be used and righly or wrongly Carroll in Newcastle form would not be questioned for 30m. It aint working out for the big man though. Adam, likewise, was a bargain in most peoples eyes. Generally his play hasnt been too bad but his tackling and lack of effort sometimes has made him stand out as a fecking liability. Suarez, quality signing and bargain aswell. But a striker is judged on a goal to game ratio and his aint looking to pretty either. Downing, again another player whose stats coupled with an "english player" price tag warranted a 20m spend. Not agressive enough going forward and has lost all his confidence. Had a few of his near misses being converted to goals the chap may have been on double figures. As obvious as it sounds, a confident player is an inform player and I really believe our lads are lacking confidence. Route of all evil in a footballer.

Season on a hole;

I think we have improved and some of the football we played throughout the season has been class but the lack of effort in some matches has overshadowed the good performances. 3 or 4 very poor performances, the rest have been well disciplined games but we havent taken our chances and the knock on effect is that there getting harder to take cause the team lack confidence with every miss. Penos were an obvious example until Gerrard came back.

How do we build on confidence? Hard to imagine a world class footballer, playing for THE best club in the world, getting the best looking women in the world, driving the best carS and lets be honest having the best jobs are LACKING in confidence.... 

As usual a few poor results have the doomsdayers out.
Read a piece in the Sunday times that said "4" is:
a) the number of games in league since Suarez was suspended
b) the number of goals we've scored in those games
c) the number of points we've got out of the 4 games
That's was it said anyway (if I recall)

Up until the Suarez suspension we were only moaning about the lack of goals, we were 'clobbering sides' 1-1, creating buckets of chances but not finishing the jammie gits off.
The sky was not falling, we needed better finishing/shooting. Mabye another striker.    Take a few more chances, and we were in the running.

Since the suspension though, we're not creating chances, we're lookin pretty clueless, and we loose poorly to Bolton. Cue pages of woe.

But, on the one hand, if we had kept Suarez on the pitch and managed to convert a few more chances, we could have been really pushing for top4.
Instead we have people questioning KK, everythings 'unacceptable' and we're facing a 'harsh reality'.

For me, Suarez being out has exposed the fact that we don't have another striker to speak of.
Carroll's form is non-existant, Kuyt is having a very long dip, and Bellers for me is better coming in off the wing.
So that's NO ... NO out and out striker available to KK that is going to stand up front for us, make runs, really stretch defenses and score goals.
That is a pain in the balls for sure, but it does not mean we we're fu**ed. ANY team would struggle if the lads up front are swinging the lead.

And though I'm not saying the midfield have been outstanding, the fact that there's nobody up top scoring, or even looking remotely like scoring, that is bound to make them look bad.
This is the same midfield who didn't look so bad 4 or 5 games back, when we were creating shitloads of chances (when a certain Suarez was making runs)...we looked like were were about to hockey someone and start moving on up...

Were the Carroll of his Newcastle days has gone, sh*te knows. He was knockin defenders over for fun. Scoring goals. Signs for LFC -- 'One haircut for Samson pls'.
Downing and Hendo haven't had the impact you'd like. But they deserve a season at least. Then judge them.
Adam comes in for a lot of stick, but for me he was a squad signing who got a lot of gametime as SG was out. He's had a few bad moments recently, but overall, still OK for squad for me.
Suarez, Enrique, Bellers have done well.

And if we're still in the same boat this time next season, might start looking at KK.
But not before then. Not for me. We ain't Real Madrid. Let's give the man the time he deserves.

Great thread mick and some excellent posts in here over the last day or two and I'm not sure I have much different to add as many points have been well covered so far.

The 'harsh reality' part of the thread title leads me to think that mick, and correct me if I'm wrong mate, thinks we at times think we are better than what we are and have better players than we actually do but I'm still not sure I believe that to be the case even after the disaster that was Bolton away.

I'll discuss what I think on the individuals in a minute but the reality for me is that the team and Kenny are performing in and around what I expected before the season began. It was a massive job in the summer turning what we had left from the end of Rafa's reign and the Hodgson debacle and with so many moves in and out of the club it was always going to be difficult to keep momentum this season especially considering injuries to two key players for most if the season.

Now I some of you might pick up that I expected a challenge for the title this season and you would be correct and I stand by that as I still think that our squad as it stands with every player playing to full potential could have challenged for the top spot but that does not mean I was wrong to think that or even expect it as things don't always go as you would expect or like.

The 'reality' for me is that we are slightly lower in the table than we deserve to be as some of our football, especially earlier in the season has been fantastic and for a bit more luck and more clinical finishing we would have got the results our play deserved. But having said that we are where we are because we didn't get the results so in order for the team to challenge as they should something has to change in that respect as we can't continually look back at what might have been as before we know it another season has passed us by.

On the individual players some of our signings have been more of a success than others. I don't like to say any of them have been a 'bad' signing but some have not justified their place in the team at times and possibly never will.

Enrique and Suarez are obvious good signings and although Luis has not contributed enough goals his all round game and creativity has gave us a different dimension to our play. Jose has been solid for most of the season and LB is not a problem position any more.

Coates has potential but hasn't played anywhere near enough games to make a proper judgement but could be a very good bit of transfer business.

Bellamy has been outstanding and even though I thought it was a great signing has possibly exceeded my expectations and his desire and will to win should be showing the younger players how to go about the game.

Henderson has been bought very much with the future in mind but when he is playing he is still playing on the periphery of games too much and is not expressive and adventurous enough. Will be a very good player but has to justify his place in the team now as I feel Jonjo would offer a bit more at the minute and has never looked over awed as Jordan has for vast parts of the season.

Downing has been a big disappointment especially in the last few months and unlike Henderson is not a young player making his way in the game. He is supposed to be the finished article and is a player with plenty of England caps to his name. Definately a player who is not showing he is worth a place in our side and I fail to find any reasons to excuse his contribution, or lack of, this season. It says it all when we are still talking about the wide areas being a problem in the squad when he was seen as a possible answer.

Adam has been how I expected. I did see it as a good signing although never expected him to play as much but due to injuries he has seen more action than he probably should have. He has been good early on but has been very poor over the last month or so and for me he himself possibly feels the pressure of playing in a much better team and can't quite raise his game.

On Carroll I just can't quite work out why he looks so bad at times as I do think there is a better player there than he has shown but has been mentioned by a few before it is more his apparent attitude to the game which is letting him down as much as his play. If he genuinely is lazy and not trying as he should then I don't expect Kenny to put up with it and this could be one of those signings that just doesn't work out. Really am losing a bit of patience with the lad and it says it all when he still hasn't made his mark with Suarez being suspended.

I still don't believe Kenny made a bad signing in the summer but the reality could be that some of them for whatever reason may not be the 'right' signing.

On the 'Nowhere to hide' part of the title I really do hope Kenny gets the response we all expect after his words on Saturday night and I fully expect any player who doesn't respond in the right way to be treated accordingly. Be it a new signing, an experienced player or a young player they all should be fully aware of what the manager expects.

Andy just needs to cut his hair, and everything will be ok.

Andy just needs to cut his hair, and everything will be ok.

Ah, if only it were so simple....

Ah, if only it were so simple....

What's more simple than siccors!

What's more simple than siccors!

What is siccors? Also, a haircut would help as he would have less on his head and therefore run bit faster with less wind resistance. 

The main problem this season and for a long time is the lack of passion the players show against the so called weaker teams, KK is right when he says we have been unlucky against some teams but generally we cant beat sides who park the bus , we lack creative midfield players ie alonso/garcia against the mancs against chelsea arsenal all the players are up for it., i fully believe we will beat man city and man utd then probably lose or draw against KK is right in bollocking them i hope all the players adam/henderson/downing give us the performance andy carroll sorry got to go

Cut his hair and wear a msk I say

tbh. guys I think a lot of people are way too negative.

Give these guys a chance, we have had a change at board level, a change at management level, and a massive change in playing personel over the past 12 months (no time at all).

Show some decency, stop phoning and moaning, and stop moaning on forums.

Just get behind the fukin team !

We are 90 mis away from Wembley, we are 6 points behind 4th with what 15 games to go, we have a home FA cup tie -v- our big rivals.

Most important for me, is the change of footi style, we have been playing good stuff, apart from bolton away, I don't think we have played bad in any games.

Compared to where we were I will take that, and enjoy being LFC again, with a proper REd at the helm and decent owners who are willing to put some money into the squad & hopefully a new stadium.

The more i think about it the more i think Kenny made those public comments with a clear goal in mind. Majority of his squad and new signings are English and the new guys were all "stars" in the respective clubs before moving to us. This may have been a serious motivator for the likes of Gerrard, Carroll, Downing, Henderson and Adam and the public scrutiny, which homegrown players dislike, to spur them on and play at a much higher intensity.
If this were directed at players like Torres or even Suarez for example, it may have had an opposite effect and knocked their confidence.

Im actually looking forward to see how the team will react following their "day off" at Bolton.
   

Tough for me to see a problem with Kenny's post Bolton statements. Although that's common place among coaches over here in the states. Many of the best would call out their team after a poor performance. It gives the players notice that they aren't replaceable and it helps send the fans a message that the manager's fed up.

Good on Kenny...he didn't single anyone out (didn't need to, we all knew who sucked) but he got his point across.

Could be worse....Jimmy Johnson, coach of the Dallas Cowboys for 2 of their 3 Super Bowls in the '90's cut a player after a game in which the player made a mistake. Got everyone else's attention, that's for sure.

.

Could be worse....Jimmy Johnson, coach of the Dallas Cowboys for 2 of their 3 Super Bowls in the '90's cut a player after a game in which the player made a mistake. Got everyone else's attention, that's for sure.

a little harsh? 

a little harsh? 

Nope, now the guy wasn't one of the starters or anything...he was a reserve player that quite likely could have been on the way out soon anyway, but he expedited the situation by fumbling at a crucial moment in the game. Again...highlighting the difference between how Europeans look at sports vs us Yanks. I had no issue with what the coach did. The player was being paid a lot of money and couldn't complete even the most fundamental task without screwing up. Time to go...and it let everyone know that they were held to a high standard and if they didn't meet it, they could look for new employment as well.

Nope, now the guy wasn't one of the starters or anything...he was a reserve player that quite likely could have been on the way out soon anyway, but he expedited the situation by fumbling at a crucial moment in the game. Again...highlighting the difference between how Europeans look at sports vs us Yanks. I had no issue with what the coach did. The player was being paid a lot of money and couldn't complete even the most fundamental task without screwing up. Time to go...and it let everyone know that they were held to a high standard and if they didn't meet it, they could look for new employment as well.

I understood he actually had CUT the lad, hahahahaha

Cut his hair and wear a mask I say

Interesting idea. I suppose Jason Vorhees would have the intimidation factor!

Harsh reality is we're the only Premiership side in a major Cup final as of now.

Interesting idea. I suppose Jason Vorhees would have the intimidation factor!

Easy fella thats a little too extreme:) Was thinking more along the line of Kane http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/173/756/2a39b4bb220efe48c7f90372821597e2_display_image.jpg?1268286553